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Car Forum / Honda Cars / September 2004excessive brake travel - brake experts
I'm stuck, I have a 1995 del sol vtec with ABS. 4 wheel disks. I've been driving it like this for a month, but can't help but be concerned for my safety. I bled the brakes several times following procedures in helms+chiltons. I'm 99% sure there is no air in the system. I went through 2 bottles of motomaster crap, and 1 honda dot3. recently i bought a haynes. it mentions NOT to bleed honda's equipped with ABS as you need proper tools. this is the first i've heard of this. can anyone confirm that? now, my brakes are engaging, but at a much lower pedal height. the MC is not leaking. with the engine off, subsequent pumps raises the brake pedal height, quickly (3X). with the engine ON, the pedal height doesn't increase with more pumps. (however, I remember it did prior to bleeding, so I'm guessing this is abnormal) i can apply steady pressure to the brake pedal and it doesn't sink. (mc good) Following instructions in haynes I determined my booster is good. Brake pedal is engaging very low. If I push VERY hard on the pedal I can feel rock bottom of it's travel. the vehicle doesn't pull to a side when braking. a 70 kph - 0 (pedal to floor) brake will engage ABS very briefly at the end, but I definateloy feel I have lost some braking performance compared to what I had previously. hmmmm? i'd appreciate any thoughts! > I'm stuck, I have a 1995 del sol vtec with ABS. 4 wheel disks. I've > been driving it like this for a month, but can't help but be concerned [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > hmmmm? i'd appreciate any thoughts! the master is leaking internally, the abs system is independent on this car. replace the master! Chip > I'm stuck, I have a 1995 del sol vtec with ABS. 4 wheel disks. I've been > driving it like this for a month, but can't help but be concerned for my [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > hmmmm? i'd appreciate any thoughts! ================== Did you bleed them after dumping all vacuum, by tapping the pedal a few times, then going front-left, front-right, rear-right, then rear-left ? Did you get a helper to push the pedal gently while you opened the nipple, or use a Mity-Vac, or a pressure bleeder? There's much disagreement out there . . . :-( 'Curly' bled them in the sequence according to helms. by the book all procedures followed. (submerged in clean brake fluid bla bla bla) i think it was rear right, left front, right front, rear left. yep had a helper. we pumped about 4X in between bleeds. (pump 4X and hold pedal down, unscrew bleed bolt, wait 5-10 seconds watch fluid for air, retighten, then begin again.) bled each wheel 7 times. i wouldn't really call it gentle pedal pushing though. not rough, but moderate pumping. we held it as far down as it would go. (pedal height will continue to drop when bleed bolt released) i have heard afterwards that when bleeding not a good idea to go pedal to metal. gritty deposits etc in MC could cause seals to crack, chip when the piston goes in that deep. oh well. the diagnosis you said about only one of my pistons in the MC functioning was somewhere along the lines I was thinking. this is pretty much what it feels like. however, my MC or reservoir doesn't show any signs of leakage. could this situation still exist if that were true? why would hydraulic pressure not be increasing with subsequent pumps even if one of the pistons was functioning? any suggestions on how to test my MC? maybe i'll head out to the junkyard and see if I can find another one. or better yet, i'll check out the prices of new MCs. this is a critical component. thanks... >> I'm stuck, I have a 1995 del sol vtec with ABS. 4 wheel disks. I've >> been driving it like this for a month, but can't help but be concerned [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > 'Curly' If fluid comes out of all four wheels when you bleed them, both pistons in the MC are at least doing something. Haynes is wrong about the tools. No special tools are required to bleed brakes on this generation of Honda. When you bleed it, the cover on the MC should be off and you should close the bleeder as soon as the pedal is down. Then pump it back up with the bleeder closed. Did the fluid level in the MC drop below the visible part of the reservoir at any time while you were bleeding? If so, there could be air in the MC. Try cracking the brake line connections at the MC (one at a time, fill cover off) and pump it a couple of times to make sure there is no air trapped in it. What is the condition of the pads? If they are near replacement time, that alone can account for a low pedal. It is not a given that the MC is now bad because you pumped the pedal all the way down, but a bad MC is a possibility. Another possibility - if the MC was replaced at some point in the past and the piston between it and the booster was not properly adjusted could set a permanently low pedal engagement point. If the pedal is solid otherwise but just low, this might be a cause. For the immediate problem - if the only thing you did was bleed the brakes and that resulted in the soft pedal you now have, I think there is at least a 50-50 chance that you introduced air into the lines doing the bleeding. Try again... Btw - it has nothing to do with this problem, but you should also change the fluid in the ABS. The procedure is in the Helms book. > bled them in the sequence according to helms. by the book all > procedures followed. (submerged in clean brake fluid bla bla bla) i [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] >> >> 'Curly' yes fluid came out of all four wheels when bleeding. i bled the brakes twice. 7X each time. (two seperate ocassions) because it was always a low pedal. i will do it again. the level in the MC reservoir was always above the min. level. and the pads are in great shape. MC looks original 'nissin' oem. don't think its ever been replaced. according the haynes. a low brake pedal = partial brake system failure. haha. wtf is that suppose to mean? jee thanks. i just want to quote you here: Try cracking the brake line connections at the MC (one at a time, fill cover > off) and pump it a couple of times to make sure there is no air trapped in > it. sounds interesting. what exactly do you mean by 'cracking'? ...pinching? i'd appreciate any details you can provide to bleed the MC. thanks a lot for your help! andre > If fluid comes out of all four wheels when you bleed them, both pistons in > the MC are at least doing something. Haynes is wrong about the tools. No [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] >>> >>> 'Curly' > yes fluid came out of all four wheels when bleeding. i bled the brakes > twice. 7X each time. (two seperate ocassions) because it was always a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > according the haynes. a low brake pedal = partial brake system failure. > haha. wtf is that suppose to mean? jee thanks. It just means some part of the system (one of the wheel cylinders/calipers, or one of the the two circuits in the MC) isn't working. > i just want to quote you here: > Try cracking the brake line connections at the MC (one at a time, fill cover [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > ...pinching? i'd appreciate any details you can provide to bleed the > MC. thanks a lot for your help! It would be hard to pinch a metal brake line without destroying it. I meant loosen the nut holding the brake line to the MC just enough for fluid/air to escape when you push the pedal down, Use one of those open end wrenches that wraps almost all the way around the nut when you do it. It is pretty easy to mess up the nuts and then you have to fix the end of the brake line (not fun). > andre the master has two pistons, each serving a front & rear brake, arranged one behind the other in the cylinder. when the seals on both pistons are ok, hydraulic pressure from the first presses the second. if one fails, one piston sinks until it bottoms out against the end of the cylinder or against the other piston before it starts to build pressure, hence the excess travel. it also means you're not getting proper braking on 2 of your 4 wheels. to cure, replace the master cylinder. the abs just modulates the pressure supplied by the master. if you want to be confident of factory bleed procedure, follow the helm manual instructions - ignore the others. > I'm stuck, I have a 1995 del sol vtec with ABS. 4 wheel disks. I've been > driving it like this for a month, but can't help but be concerned for my [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > hmmmm? i'd appreciate any thoughts! I had the same experience with my 86 Accord once. I finally rebled after driving it for a while for any residual air bubbles that are trapped to settle. That seemed to have solved the problem. It turned out that in my case, I somehow accidentally introduced air into the system.  Signaturenospamddlee10@hotmail.com remove 'nospam' for correct email address > I'm stuck, I have a 1995 del sol vtec with ABS. 4 wheel disks. I've > been driving it like this for a month, but can't help but be concerned [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > hmmmm? i'd appreciate any thoughts! |
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