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Car Forum / Honda Cars / September 2004Suspension Springs & Shock Absorbers
For a 91 Civic LX Sedan, 157k miles, original springs and shock absorbers: 1. If a car definitely has one "failed" suspension spring, do people here advise replacing both this one and the one on the other side, even if the other side appears to show no damage? Or, given the age of this car and that for most of its life it has been driven in the winter-salty Northern U.S., would many of you old hands just say: Splurge and replace all four spring and shock assemblies? Or just replace all four springs, if the shock assemblies appear fine? Here's the situation: The rear left (= driver's) side is lower than the right side by 3/4 to 1 inch. I am almost certain that this is due to having a very large, overweight person sitting in the car's back, left, passenger seat briefly about 2.75 years ago, as the next day it looked tilted as I describe above. It has remained so ever since. The rubber casing at the top spring coils in the rear left is broken in a few places. The metal beneath looks fine. On the other side, the rubber casing appears to be intact. The noises from the car don't seem particularly bad. There are some creaks when I get in and out to drive it, but otherwise, nothing leaps out at me as particularly suspect. (I am a slim person; 120 pounds or so.) I hope to drive this car in comfort (physical and financial) for at least five more years. I'd like to break 250k miles on it. I do my own repairs on it. Recently I learned how to replace (and participated in same) a MacPherson strut, including overhaul using a spring compressor. 2. Advice on which spring compressor to seek is also welcome. I have the general idea of these but am not sure Autozone's loaners will be sufficient. 3. Lastly, can I get away with Non-OEM springs, shocks, and bushings, given that I expect to keep this 42 mpg car only about five more years? TIA > For a 91 Civic LX Sedan, 157k miles, original springs and shock absorbers: > > 1. > If a car definitely has one "failed" suspension spring, do people here advise > replacing both this one and the one on the other side, even if the other side > appears to show no damage? if a spring has "failed", the coil wire has fatigued and broken. unless you have just a few inches fail off one end of the coil, [unusual] the whole thing will collapse and the suspension will drop to the bump stop. the #1 candidate for what you describe is crash damage. unfortunately, the crumple zones, both front & rear on this car, when activated, will change the shock tower height. if you disassemble both rear shock/spring assemblies, chances are, the free length of each spring is within 1/2", factory spec. there is a small chance that the springs have taken a "set", but that's really rare because it requires yielding, and the springs operate well within their elastic zone. final possibility is that the rubbers for the mounts have at some point been disassembled and put back wrong. or that excessive pounding has somehow fatigued them. the rubber on the coil you mention is simply to quiet the coils when they touch - only on the rears as they have a "progressive" spring rating. > Or, given the age of this car and that for most of its life it has been driven > in the winter-salty Northern U.S., would many of you old hands just say: Splurge [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Advice on which spring compressor to seek is also welcome. I have the general > idea of these but am not sure Autozone's loaners will be sufficient. anything works provided it fits the coil, and the rears on the '91 are /real/ tight. the best type of compressor is where the ends of the spring are compressed, not rolls of the actual coil. > 3. > Lastly, can I get away with Non-OEM springs, shocks, and bushings, given that I > expect to keep this 42 mpg car only about five more years? much cheaper to go with oem from a junk yard. it's hard to get non-oem that don't lower 'cos that's where the market is with civics. > TIA Jim, today I did some more probing. I got stuck where the manual says to remove the lower strut mounting bolt. This 10 mm dia. bolt connects the bottom of the strut to the lower control arm. I PB Blastered the bolt yesterday, both ends. Put more on today, but it's not like it was seeping down around the threads. I tried both ends of the bolt. The bolt head required a 14 mm socket. The nut required a 19 mm socket. I tried a 2-foot breaker bar. Went slowly, played with it for a half an hour or so, started wondering if I had to take the load off the joint. I kept trying and of course sheared off the bolt head... The car was on two jackstands at the usual jacking points. The manuals I read on this said nothing about special placement or compressing the spring. Did I mess up? Should I have somehow unloaded the joint where the bottom strut bolt is? I think I'm going to make this a one to two month project. Lotta bushings there look awful. The bolts are going to be tricky freeing up... The ball joints seemed fine on both sides. I'm still puzzling over the tilt. The springs seem to be the same length, when compressed. The distances from the top of the springs to the lower mounting bolts are likewise very close. Thanks for sharing your experience! > Caroline wrote: > > For a 91 Civic LX Sedan, 157k miles, original springs and shock absorbers: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > if a spring has "failed", the coil wire has fatigued and broken. Well, engineering-wise, "failed" means the part isn't doing everything it was designed to do... but I don't want to get into a fight. > unless > you have just a few inches fail off one end of the coil, [unusual] the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > shock/spring assemblies, chances are, the free length of each spring is > within 1/2", factory spec. The worst crash I've ever had is being rear-ended, but the only notable damage at the time was the muffler breaking loose a day or so later. This was years apart from the event I suspect caused the tilt (when a very heavy person sat in the left rear). I took off both rear wheels today and measured the compressed spring height. They were very close; approx. 1/4 inch difference, tops. This contrasts with the approx. 3/4 inch difference between the heights of the chassis at the rear of the car. > there is a small chance that the springs have taken a "set", but that's > really rare because it requires yielding, and the springs operate well > within their elastic zone. > > final possibility is that the rubbers for the mounts have at some point > been disassembled and put back wrong. They've never been disassembled. > or that excessive pounding has > somehow fatigued them. the rubber on the coil you mention is simply to > quiet the coils when they touch - only on the rears as they have a > "progressive" spring rating. Tapered springs. Okay. > > Or, given the age of this car and that for most of its life it has been driven > > in the winter-salty Northern U.S., would many of you old hands just say: Splurge [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > /real/ tight. the best type of compressor is where the ends of the > spring are compressed, not rolls of the actual coil. Okay. > > 3. > > Lastly, can I get away with Non-OEM springs, shocks, and bushings, given that I > > expect to keep this 42 mpg car only about five more years? > > much cheaper to go with oem from a junk yard. it's hard to get non-oem > that don't lower 'cos that's where the market is with civics. Don't lower what? Or did you mean "go lower"? > Jim, today I did some more probing. I got stuck where the manual says to remove > the lower strut mounting bolt. This 10 mm dia. bolt connects the bottom of the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Did I mess up? Should I have somehow unloaded the joint where the bottom strut > bolt is? no, you did the right thing. the thread points into all the oncoming crud on the road, including salt, so it wicks in & locks that thing solid i'm afraid. iirc, you came from up north and now live in the perfect car country, arizona, so get "new" shock/strut assys from an arizonan junk yard and they'll be perfect. if you're going to drop the lower control strut from the main trailing arm, you will need to jack up the trailing arm to a position close to where it is in normal operation - otherwise you'll turn the bolt ok, but never get it out once it clears the threads. if you want to replace the bushings, the "honda method" is to replace the whole arm - can't buy all the bushings seperately. however, i believe you can buy oem rubber bushings for integras, and they're identical. another option is to get the mugen honda bushing set from king motor sports. they're harder & firm up the ride a little, but they're natural rubber and never squeak, unlike urethane. you need a proper fitting bearing press to replace them - the journals are mild steel, so just whacking them with a hammer ruins them. > I think I'm going to make this a one to two month project. Lotta bushings there > look awful. The bolts are going to be tricky freeing up... the only one that makes a real difference is the big one that hinges the trailing arm. check them with the arms lowered - i bet you'll be surprised how badly cracked they've gotten. again, honda don't sell those bushings, but i believe you can get them for integras [sic] and that saves ~$250 /each/ for the trailing arm assemblies. or again, get mugen honda ones. > The ball joints seemed fine on both sides. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Thanks for sharing your experience! yeah, unfortunately, that knowledge /does/ come from experience. it's a lot of work & a couple of skinned knuckes to replace all the springs only to find the old ones are identical to the new, and the car still sits funny when you're done. >>>For a 91 Civic LX Sedan, 157k miles, original springs and shock absorbers: >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Well, engineering-wise, "failed" means the part isn't doing everything it was > designed to do... but I don't want to get into a fight. no fight here caroline. i just doubt it's the springs. they rarely yield, they just fatigue & break, and even that is pretty rare in hondas. >>unless >>you have just a few inches fail off one end of the coil, [unusual] the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > approx. 3/4 inch difference between the heights of the chassis at the rear of > the car. compressed height is a function of the shock travel - need to measure free height. >>there is a small chance that the springs have taken a "set", but that's >>really rare because it requires yielding, and the springs operate well [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] > > Don't lower what? Or did you mean "go lower"? sorry, i mean spring with a shorter free length that lower the ride height of the car. like the ricers always have. most all aftermarket springs for civics lower the car to some degree as that is the nature of demand. to repeat, if you really want to replace springs, it saves a lot of time & effort getting assembled coil/shock assemblies from a junk yard. but check the relevant free lengths of your existing springs first - if they're the same, or within 1/2", the diffence between the 2 new springs i bought to "fix" my problem, you'll see no difference in ride height by replacing them. unfortunately, my helm for the '89 [should be the same as yours] doesn't specify free lengths, so i can't help you there, but the free length of a single [good] spring i have in the garage is 12.75". again, within 1/2" of this should be fine. finally, if for some perverted reason the coils ever were replaced, the two variables affecting spring rate are length of wire & diameter of wire in the coil. double check the diameter by using an open ended wrench. i think they're 11mm wire on the rears, 12mm on the fronts. > Caroline wrote: > > Jim, today I did some more probing. I got stuck where the manual says to remove [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > solid i'm afraid. iirc, you came from up north and now live in the > perfect car country, arizona, Yes, the car was driven for over half its life up North. I am in the West but have never said what state, yada yada... > so get "new" shock/strut assys from an > arizonan junk yard and they'll be perfect. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > where it is in normal operation - otherwise you'll turn the bolt ok, but > never get it out once it clears the threads. Okay. > if you want to replace the bushings, the "honda method" is to replace > the whole arm - can't buy all the bushings seperately. however, i [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > proper fitting bearing press to replace them - the journals are mild > steel, so just whacking them with a hammer ruins them. Wow to all. I'll start investigating what's available in my area. At least I have nearby a good junkyard with some Civics my Civic's vintage in it. > > I think I'm going to make this a one to two month project. Lotta bushings there > > look awful. The bolts are going to be tricky freeing up... > > the only one that makes a real difference is the big one that hinges the > trailing arm. check them with the arms lowered - i bet you'll be > surprised how badly cracked they've gotten. Yes, I think I saw this one yesterday. Even without lowering the arms, it looks awful. > again, honda don't sell > those bushings, but i believe you can get them for integras [sic] and > that saves ~$250 /each/ for the trailing arm assemblies. or again, get > mugen honda ones. Okay. > > The ball joints seemed fine on both sides. > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > only to find the old ones are identical to the new, and the car still > sits funny when you're done. This helps a lot! Mainly, mucho dinero (much money) saved! Thanks! > >>>For a 91 Civic LX Sedan, 157k miles, original springs and shock absorbers: > >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > no fight here caroline. i just doubt it's the springs. they rarely > yield, they just fatigue & break, and even that is pretty rare in hondas. Okay. Good to know! snip > > I took off both rear wheels today and measured the compressed spring height. > > They were very close; approx. 1/4 inch difference, tops. This contrasts with the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > compressed height is a function of the shock travel - need to measure > free height. Okay. snip > >>much cheaper to go with oem from a junk yard. it's hard to get non-oem > >>that don't lower 'cos that's where the market is with civics. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > springs for civics lower the car to some degree as that is the nature of > demand. Okay. > to repeat, if you really want to replace springs, it saves a lot of time > & effort getting assembled coil/shock assemblies from a junk yard. but [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the free length of a single [good] spring i have in the garage is > 12.75". again, within 1/2" of this should be fine. Okay. > finally, if for some perverted reason the coils ever were replaced, the > two variables affecting spring rate are length of wire & diameter of > wire in the coil. double check the diameter by using an open ended > wrench. i think they're 11mm wire on the rears, 12mm on the fronts. Okay, though for the archives, I'm the original owner, have never had a major accident; the only minor ones were being rear-ended pretty strongly a couple times; and am certain the car's suspension has never been worked on until now. If I ever figure out why the car tilts, I'll re-post. But I think it will take weeks before I find a solution, if I find one. (And I note your doubt I will! Fair enough!) Again, many thanks. You've taken a load off my mind on a number of counts. Pun intended. :-) <snip> > Wow to all. I'll start investigating what's available in my area. At least I > have nearby a good junkyard with some Civics my Civic's vintage in it. as far as i've been able to determine, the bushings for all civics, 88 through 2000 & all integras, 90 through 2001 are the same. look for new stuff without the ageing - anything as old as your car will be shot. that major trailing arm assembly is the same for civics & integas as well. if you can find a recent one that's been crashed, those are a good donor. just swap out the backing plates where the brakes mount 'cos they'll be a different size to your 91. i posted how to do that in a thread titled "civic big brake upgrade - pt II". if the donor has disks, you can probably sell the the disk plates for what you buy the trailing arms for and get free bushings. and if you /really/ want to go nuts, swap out your old trailing arms to urethane bushings and sell them as an upgrade kit to a ricer for a small profit. blah. > Caroline wrote: > <snip> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > nuts, swap out your old trailing arms to urethane bushings and sell them > as an upgrade kit to a ricer for a small profit. blah. Hi Jim, Due to my battle with the lower shock absorber mounting bolt I started a new thread soliciting input on 'creative bolt-busting; a second course.' Meanwhile, I was at my favorite auto salvage yard today, preparing to just buy two new lower mounting bolts for $4 each. The yard had a couple of spring-over-shock-absorber assemblies (attached to the original, front-wrecked Civic), too, 7k miles old and looked in good shape. The yard wanted $50 for the whole spring & shock absorber assembly. Anticipating the worst with my bolt removal efforts (e.g. bushing destruction likely), I went ahead and bought one S&SA assembly and an accompanying control arm for another $15. I took all this stuff off the old Civic in the yard myself within about half an hour, with the limited tools in my car. Amazing how easy it is when the bolts aren't frozen and are in excellent repair... Not that I expect any of this to fix my car's tilt (per what you said). But I thought I couldn't go wrong for this price, considering all the snow and salt my original shocks, springs, and bushings have seen. Thanks for the tips. Hopefully my bolt removal efforts won't lead to the need to purchase a new trailing arm(s), but if I do reach this point, I'm keeping the above in mind. Some comments on the whole thread- Hyper Suspension has a WHOLE bushing kit for the civics. I can tell you the only part in the kit is a couple of pieces for the wagon. (because I have a wagon!) The parts install is time consuming but worth it. I believe they also sell partial kits. I got mine at Summit Racing in Akron, OH Yes, the struts are the same length because the "shock" part regulates how long it can get. The spring rate has changed from fatigue so thats why the car sags a bit more on one side. Rusted bolts are a way of life. The only way NOT to break some is using an acetylene torch. Others just dont get hot enough. -Pete > For a 91 Civic LX Sedan, 157k miles, original springs and shock absorbers: > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > TIA |
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