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Car Forum / Honda Cars / January 2005Need advice... 95 Civic dies and won't start, but then starts and is fine.
Thread title about sums it up. Seems to happen as part of the warm up process??? 1st time was when I left the house and got about 5 miles down the road. This morning (very cold), I started and let it idle for about 10 minutes. Pulled out of the driveway and got 50 feet and it died. NO stutter, stumble, misfire... just plain quits. Key off and back ON runs the fuel pump OK. Crank all you want, but not a single fire. I get out and push the car back to my driveway. Then try the key and it starts up and runs fine. Same thing the first time it happened. Traveling along at 55 to 60mph and it died. Coasted into local gas station. Tried several times to start it, but would not fire. I was listening for fuel pump that time, but couldn't here it (too much noise around me, this time I could here it for sure). So I got out and popped the hood, looked for a fuel pressure relief to just see if there was fuel pressure but didn't see one. Found the fuse boxes and quickly checked fuses. Got back inside the car and was digging out my cell phone when I decided to crank it one more time. Cranked it and it started instantly and idled perfect. I'm hoping you guys know of a "typical" problem that causes this exact symptom. I do need to replace the thermostat... not getting very good heat and it's running on the cool side. I don't think it's relevent. Temp gauge was up a good quarter this morning when it died. Then of course, on the highway it goes back to near COLD. But so far, once the car dies and restarts, it runs without failing for the rest of the day! I have no idea how I'm gonna find the problem if it starts and runs fine after. I don't usually like to "throw parts" at a problem, but sometimes that's the route to go ; ) All advice much appreciated! In2 Hi Next time it happens, see if banging on the side panel near your left knee helps. I am not suggesting that be a permanent fix :) but it is often an indication of the main relay being bad - a very common honda problem. Once you determine it is indeed the main relay, you can actually fix it by resoldering its connections. Tegger, an often contributing member of this group, has set up a very nice site you'll want to check out: http://tegger.com/hondafaq/MainRelay.HTM Hope this helps. Remco Thanks, and other suggestions still welcome (just in case) !!! I also looked at the site you mentioned. My next questions are: Does the Civic have same relay location? Is it up in the dash or under the side panel? Or both? Thanks to any and all! In2 > Hi > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Hope this helps. > Remco If is usually mounted near the fuse box on a bracket. I can see the one on my wife's 95 Integra by just looking up into dashboard. Ours in mounted along the outside wall - not the fire wall. Suspect yours is mounted similarly. If you are familiar with soldering electronic components, I'd take the relay out and reflow the connections to see if that fixes it. Here is a picture of the relay mounted in a car: http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/electrical/main-relay/main-relay.htm Regards, Remco If is usually mounted near the fuse box on a bracket. I can see the one on my wife's 95 Integra by just looking up into dashboard. Ours in mounted along the outside wall - not the fire wall. Suspect yours is mounted similarly. If you are familiar with soldering electronic components, I'd take the relay out and reflow the connections to see if that fixes it. Regards, Remco Thanks Remco! I've already found 2 fuse panels under the hood, and wonder if it might be out there... but then again, total number of fuses wasn't that many so it would surprise me to find more inside. But it's cold out here these days, and my back is killing me. I did at least get the thermostat and lower control arm bushing changed. I saw the gound connections. They don't look too too bad, but I thinks the bolt prefers to break instead of loosen so I let it be for now. I'll check for resistance (voltage drop method) when I get a chance. I didn't have my good meter. I was looking at the tegger site again. I realize my symptoms don't quite match, as I do get the fuel pump to run it's cycle, and it also never starts and stalls. This really kinda sucks, as I wanted to have my wife start running this car to work and back. But I guess I'm gonna have to do the old "timing light and multiple test leads out the hood and in the door" trick and keep driving this thing. That can usually draw some conclusions, except of course when it just leaves you hauling your equipment all over the place for no reason because it maybe won't do it again for a week, month, or ever? ; ) But I'm sure if my wife takes it, it will bother! Next question... Any sites around that have good schematics to peak at? I don't have a book, and would rather junk a car than buy a haynes rag ; ) Or does anyone know how to unlock the codes on the old alldate disks? I lost the code to my disk and I guess alldata went out of business with the disk deal. > If is usually mounted near the fuse box on a bracket. I can see the one > on my wife's 95 Integra by just looking up into dashboard. Ours in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Regards, > Remco >Any sites around that have good schematics to peak at? http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/CivicManual/index.html Could a similar thing be happening with my turn signal relay and is it just as easy to reflow the solder? I have noticed recently that my 92 civic when below freezing often buzzes for a moment when I use the right directional before the car cabin in warm. After it warms up - no buzz. Thanks in advance, Mike H > Hi > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Hope this helps. > Remco >Could a similar thing be happening with my turn signal relay and is it just >as easy to reflow the solder? I have noticed recently that my 92 civic when >below freezing often buzzes for a moment when I use the right directional >before the car cabin in warm. After it warms up - no buzz. If you can learn how to solder, you can also learn how to use a meter. Measure the 12v coming out the output side of the contacts. If OK, your done. The relay is fine. If there's no 12V coming out, check that there 12V coming to the relay. if OK, then check that there's 12v to the coil. Leave the damn solder alone until you make the tests. The solder isn't where relays fail. It's almost always the contacts and sometimes the coil. > I'm hoping you guys know of a "typical" problem that causes this exact > symptom. main relay ignitor/distributor problem ignition switch > > I'm hoping you guys know of a "typical" problem that causes this exact > > symptom. > > main relay > ignitor/distributor problem > ignition switch Thanks SoCalMike! I appreciate the imput. I've been thinking about the distributor. I'm planning to hook up my timing light, run the wires from the hood around the door jam and have it inside the vehicle. Then when it bothers, I can check for spark. For what it's worth, when it dies the fuel pump will still runs and the MIL, oil, temp,... all come on indicating "the key is on" for at least most of the system. I need a good schematic to figure out if all that still leaves a pole or two not connecting. Same for the main relay. I don't seem to fit the "typical classic" symptom completely. But I certainly will see what I can do there. I have a good meter (snapon vantage, but no KV : ( ) and am hoping to figure out exactly how to be hooked up to check the primary side so as to isolate the problem if it is loss of spark, and at the same time be checking for ignition feed? All help much appreciated! Short of thermostat, control arm bushing, and rear brake job (disk, rust bolts, fun...) my Honda experience is ZERO! I may need to do the alldata online thing, but I HATE that because it leaves the information here and the car there, and I always run into print issues that just makes it too slow and difficult to deal with. You could hook up a small 12V bulb across your coil's primary and see if the ignitor does its job (it is supposed to flash if ok). Once it fails you will al least be able to determine if it is before or after the coil. Ignitors do fail from time to time -- not sure if they have an intermittent failure mode because it looks like it is a darlington transistor to me. It is into the distributor. You'll see it as a module that has four wires attached to it - it is mounted on a bracket that comes off with two screws. Maybe also check the coil, as the insulation can break down and it will arc through the case to the distrubutor so perhaps remove it and visually inspect it for cracks. I guess that could be an intermittent failure mode. I have a schematic -- it is out of a haynes manual. This one is fairly accurate - let me know; I could email you a copy (schematic, that is) if you need it. Regards, Remco Make sure it is a small bulb. A large one, large is more than 100mA (.0.1A), can kill a good ignitor. Don't ask how I know this. Better to use a LED which will only draw 15~20mA (0.015A). And while it is mainly an darlington, there is an amplifer to sense coil saturation. Terry Good point on the max current. An LED with a 470 ohm resistor in series will run about 20mA at 12V or so. That current at running duty cycle can probably be seen on an LED. Remco <...> > I've been thinking about the distributor. I'm planning to hook up my > timing light, run the wires from the hood around the door jam and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > least most of the system. I need a good schematic to figure out if > all that still leaves a pole or two not connecting. From my website article on the Honda designed Rover 216 GSi at www.gcw.org.uk/rover/igniter.htm : You may like to download this ZIP file which contains a drawing, a photo and a text file. The drawing is of the parts and their interconnections with wire colours etc. and a fault finding guide. The drawing is produced at 300 dpi and will translate to print a full sheet of 8.5"x11" or A4. The text file describes how to make the LED probe and the fault-finding it can carry out. The white wire on T1 of the igniter module goes directly to the tachometer. So if the engine dies and the tacho shows zero then the module isn't providing output pulses. > Same for the > main relay. I don't seem to fit the "typical classic" symptom [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > isolate the problem if it is loss of spark, and at the same time be > checking for ignition feed? Finally (my hobby horse) take the distributor cap off (mark the leads' positions) wash it up in the sink with detergent and then seal the surface with anything handy that is a known permanent water repellent after drying it. A smidgeon of silicone grease rubbed in and polished off will do. HTH -- Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro-society.freeserve.co.uk/ Wessex Dorset UK Astro Society's Web pages, Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter. > The white wire on T1 of the igniter module goes directly to the > tachometer. So if the engine dies and the tacho shows zero > then the module isn't providing output pulses. That's another question I had! It normally starts so quick and easy it's hard to tell, but I shall pay attention if I can remember! Can one expect to see the engine rmp at "starter cranking speed" register on the tach?? I'm betting it shows zero, but don't know at what rpm it should actually start to register. I didn't think it would be cap, wires,...etc., as moisture doesn't seem to bother it and it never seems to skip or stumble. But I'll probably address the standard tune up issues along the way here ; ) Thanks to all for all replies. I haven't had time to deal with this yet. But I'm saving all the links and suggestions. I'll try to get back for an update when/if I ever get it fixed! In2hoppn >> The white wire on T1 of the igniter module goes directly to the >> tachometer. So if the engine dies and the tacho shows zero [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > one expect to see the engine rmp at "starter cranking speed" register > on the tach?? Well, when it dawned on me, same as you above, I looked and I thought I could see it just 'bouncing' off the stop when the cap was the problem. > I'm betting it shows zero, but don't know at what rpm > it should actually start to register. > > I didn't think it would be cap, wires,...etc., as moisture doesn't > seem to bother it and it never seems to skip or stumble. No, but this is special moisture which steals energy from the spark and only appears when the engine is warming up. There is still HV going up the lead to the plug but it may be insufficient to fire it. Clean the cap. It is FREE to do and could fix the problem. What have you got to lose? > But I'll > probably address the standard tune up issues along the way here ; ) Always good to do.  SignatureGraham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro-society.freeserve.co.uk/ Wessex Dorset UK Astro Society's Web pages, Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter. UPDATE It finally died while I was driving it and had equipment hooked up to it! (Now I can stop driving it around with more $ worth of equipment inside it than the car itself is worth!) It's definitely cold weather related, and apparently as the distributor is warming up, it dies. Then, I imagine, heat continues to transfer into the distributor... 5 minutes waiting time... and all is fine again. Never bothers again when fully warm. From cold, it's hit or miss whether it will be a problem or not. Never had a problem from spring, summer, and fall... only since winter came and I've been driving it. I had my Vantage meter attached to primary side of coil, and timing light attached to secondary. When it dies, I lose both signals. I NEED AN ICM. IGNITION CONTROL MODULE HELP! This is a charity job. $178 is WAY TOO much to spend at autozone! My local boneyard doesn't have a distributor... gave me a price of $150 to $200 if they can locate one! WHAT? Well I guess that includes a bunch of stuff in it that I don't need. If I can locate one myself, I doubt they'll break out just the ignitor for me. Some kindhearted fellow Honda wrencher got one of these? It's a 95 Civic with 1.5 VTEC. My understanding is it's the same part from 94 (not D15B7, D15B8 OK), 95, 96, 97 (including 1.6) (also VTEC or not), and who know what else??? Wells number is JP129? I'd pay shipping cost plus a small fee if you gotta get something for it (charity job for my efforts, I can charge something for parts if I have to). Hopefully, someone can help me out. I have yet to check ebay. Owner will just unload this car if I can't fix it real cheap. I buy complete parts cars for way less than this! But, I can't wait for one to come through the auction... not to mention the weather here in New Hampshire right now! In2hoppn reply here or reply direct... but not worldpath anymore... it's metrocast instead... > Thread title about sums it up. Seems to happen as part of the warm up > process??? [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > All advice much appreciated! > In2 |
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