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Car Forum / Honda Cars / February 20051997 Honda Civic question
I don't know if anyone remembers the other post I had, but we are still having the same problem. Everything has been checked - the car has spark, fuel, and air. Any suggestions? You actually see the injector spray gas into the throttle body during starting? > I don't know if anyone remembers the other post I had, but we are still > having the same problem. > > Everything has been checked - the car has spark, fuel, and air. Any > suggestions? >I don't know if anyone remembers the other post I had, but we are still >having the same problem. >Everything has been checked - the car has spark, fuel, and air. Any >suggestions? The order to check is ignition, fuel, compression. If you're sure about the ignition and fuel systems, do a compression check. You might have a broken timing belt. A car without compression will sound like it's "free wheeling" when you try to start it. It won't have the "groan groan groan" sound that is normal. No, we have not actually seen the injector spray gas into the throttle. The guy that was looking at it seems to think there is too much gas getting to the engine and flooding it out. The oil has a gas smell to it. Also, the timing belt was changed when we were trying to figure out the problem. The car has 130,000 miles and we did it just for maintenance. The mechanic that has it now has done all the tests on it and he says that everything checks out. >No, we have not actually seen the injector spray gas into the throttle. >The guy that was looking at it seems to think there is too much gas >getting to the engine and flooding it out. The oil has a gas smell to >it. >Also, the timing belt was changed when we were trying to figure out the >problem. The car has 130,000 miles and we did it just for maintenance. So? Changing a timing belt is no guarantee that it was done properly. It is no guarantee that it was tensioned properly and didn't snap 2K miles later. >The mechanic that has it now has done all the tests on it and he says that >everything checks out. Then your car runs. Congradulations. If it doesn't, then clearly some test wasn't done. Have you pulled a spark plug and verified that the ignition system generates enough spark to jump 1/2"? Have you checked the timing? Have you measured the fuel system pressure? What was the pressure? Does the computer have any codes to report? Does the computer report that everything is OK? Was a compression test done? What were the compression results for each cylinder? If you using a mechanic, ask him to run the troubleshooting flowchart in the honda service manual. If he hasn't a service manual, get your car to a competant mechanic! The mechanics have run all tests and it is not throwing any codes. There si compressing in all cylinders. The car has everything it needs to start (fuel, spark, air, etc.), but still will not start. Does anyone know if Honda's run "dead on" when it comes to timing? That is the only thing we can think of. The first mechanic said it was off by 4 teeth, so he fixed it so it was "dead on". >The mechanics have run all tests and it is not throwing any codes. There >si compressing in all cylinders. The car has everything it needs to start >(fuel, spark, air, etc.), but still will not start. >Does anyone know if Honda's run "dead on" when it comes to timing? That >is the only thing we can think of. The first mechanic said it was off by >4 teeth, so he fixed it so it was "dead on". How did it get off by 4 teeth? What is to prevent that from occuring again? Has another mechanic rechecked it? If it's not throwing any codes then it is something that is open loop, such as a bad ignition coil. Does it really have spark? You've actually pulled a plug wire and seen that it'll jump 1/4" to ground while the car is being cranked? Is the exhaust clear? Gases blowing out the tailpipe? Fuel pressure? Injectors grounded and receiving a signal (put on an osciloscope)? You might have a bad computer. A honda mechanic can try a replacement without having to charge you if it didn't need to be replaced. As far as the timing, I don't have any idea how it would have gotten off 4 teeth. I am just going by what the mechanics are telling us - they said they have checked everything that a car would need to start and everything checks out. They are going to look at the ignition switch and I guess we can have them look at the ignition coil. The dealer cannot get us in for another 2 weeks, so we are just trying to think of things for the current mechanic to check. >As far as the timing, I don't have any idea how it would have gotten off 4 >teeth. >I am just going by what the mechanics are telling us - they said they have >checked everything that a car would need to start and everything checks >out. They are going to look at the ignition switch and I guess we can >have them look at the ignition coil. GET IT THE HELL AWAY FROM THAT MECHANIC!!! Call a tow truck, and have it taken to any other service shop. A first year mechanic would have known if the ignition switch was bad within five minutes! All you need is a voltmeter. "Have a look at the ignition coil???" A 17 year old mechanic who only knows how to change the spark plugs would know to take an ignition wire off a spark plug, hold it 1/4-1/2" from a ground and have somebody crank the ignition to see if the ignition is working. You're being taken for a ride. My husband just got off the phone with the mechanic - he did check the ingnition switch as well as the coil. They checked it before and after they changed the distributor and they both check out fine. > My husband just got off the phone with the mechanic - he did check the > ingnition switch as well as the coil. They checked it before and after > they changed the distributor and they both check out fine. ---------------------------- I hope it's not politically incorrect to point out something that's written in the Owner's manual . . . The manual says that a flooded Honda can be started by holding the pedal to the floor and cranking it, for up to 15 seconds at a time.. It's got too much gas . . now hold the pedal to the floor and give it air. A flooded Honda sounds like there's no compression at all. It just spins fairly fast. 'Curly' <html><input type crash></html> >> My husband just got off the phone with the mechanic - he did check the >> ingnition switch as well as the coil. They checked it before and after >> they changed the distributor and they both check out fine. >---------------------------- >I hope it's not politically incorrect to point out something that's >written in the Owner's manual . . . The manual says that a flooded Honda >can be started by holding the pedal to the floor and cranking it, for up >to 15 seconds at a time.. It's got too much gas . . now hold the pedal >to the floor and give it air. A flooded Honda sounds like there's no >compression at all. It just spins fairly fast. I doubt that car has been flooded for weeks. Also: fuel injected cars don't get flooded, can't get flooded. > Also: fuel injected cars don't get flooded, can't get flooded. They can. Injectors leak.  SignatureTeGGeR? The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > I doubt that car has been flooded for weeks. Agreed. > Also: fuel injected cars don't get flooded, can't get flooded. My 94 Civic (MT) has fuel injection. The manual (p101, step 6) says, "If the engine still does not start, press the accelerator pedal all the way down and hold it there while starting in order to clear flooding." <html><input type crash></html> >> I doubt that car has been flooded for weeks. >Agreed. >> Also: fuel injected cars don't get flooded, can't get flooded. >My 94 Civic (MT) has fuel injection. The manual (p101, step 6) says, "If >the engine still does not start, press the accelerator pedal all the way >down and hold it there while starting in order to clear flooding." Amusing, obviously a holdover from carburetted days where hitting gas pedal too much would squirt too much gas via the accelerator pump into the intake manifold. The solution was to crank the engine with the throttle valve wide open to get some air into the intake manifold. On fuel injected cars, there's no fuel in an intake manifold. The air manifold can't get flooded. The fuel is injected directly into the area just above the intake valve. It's cleared completely every time the intake valve opens and the fuel/air mixture is drawn into the cylinder. > <html><input type crash></html> > begin On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:39:37 -0500, Abeness <news@nada.x> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > the intake manifold. The solution was to crank the engine with the > throttle valve wide open to get some air into the intake manifold. If you attempt to start a cold car but fail to let it crank long enough to allow it to start, then do the same thing several times in a row, this can flood the engine. some people actually manage to do this, believe it or not. Also, injectors do leak, especially when new and not fully bedded in. If you get a couple that dribble into the combustion chamber overnight, you can flood those cylinders enough to make the car fail to start, or to start hard. SignatureTeGGeR? The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > As far as the timing, I don't have any idea how it would have gotten > off 4 teeth. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The dealer cannot get us in for another 2 weeks, so we are just trying > to think of things for the current mechanic to check. Try here: http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#stalling SignatureTeGGeR? The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ Is there any way the timing could be the problem? The first mechanic said it was off and set it "dead on". Is it possible the timing was correct and that is why it will not start now? <html><input type crash></html> >Is there any way the timing could be the problem? The first mechanic said >it was off and set it "dead on". Is it possible the timing was correct >and that is why it will not start now? Timing can be way off before it won't start. It'll do thinks like backfire or "almost catch". The range of adjustment is about 25 degrees, anywhere within 25 degrees it should start. Easy enough to test with a timing light. First things first: does it even have ignition (spark?) then you can check the timing. Is there fuel pressure? is fuel getting to the injector rail? is there a signal going to the injectors? Is the injector rail connected properly and grounded? If there's fuel and the car isn't starting, raw gas should be going out the tail pipe (and destroying the catalytic convertor) Is the exhaust free flowing, not pluged? Is there compression? Any competant mechanic should have checked all of the above in the first hour. He said the car has everything it should to start - meaning all the tests came out fine. I believe that he is a competant mechanic ... he has checked everything that a car needs to start, however, it still does not start. <html><input type crash></html> >He said the car has everything it should to start - meaning all the tests >came out fine. >I believe that he is a competant mechanic ... he has checked everything >that a car needs to start, however, it still does not start. If it has everything it needs to start then it will start. If the mechanic is on a wild goose chase testing the ignition switch then the mechanic's competance is seriously in question. > <html><input type crash></html> > begin On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:34:03 -0500, darien7684 [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > If the mechanic is on a wild goose chase testing the ignition switch > then the mechanic's competance is seriously in question. I concur with that assessment. SignatureTeGGeR? The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ As I said before - he is not on a wild goose chase. The ignition switch was checked as well as the coil and they both are fine. Do you have any suggestions without out making comments about the mechanic's integrity? Thanks hmh@ilmolaw.com (darien7684) wrote: >Do you have any suggestions without out >making comments about the mechanic's >integrity? When a doctor can't figure out what's wrong with you, you go to another doctor for a second opinion. This is the second mechanic ... <html><input type crash></html> >This is the second mechanic ... Is there spark? Is the timing correct? Is there fuel pressure? Is the fuel going to the injector rail Is there a signal going to the fuel injectors? Is the fuel injector rail grounded? Is there raw gas going out the tail pipe? Does the engine computer throw any codes? Should it give an "all ok" code? Is the exhaust free flowing? Is there compression? Have you done the troubleshooting flowchart out of the honda shop manual? > This is the second mechanic ... Does the second guy know that the first guy corrected the timing by "four teeth"? Did he access the timing belt and re-install it to correct these four teeth? Or take out the distributor and turn the gear? What did he actually do? If the distributor has been out, I would say there is a chance things were not properly aligned when it was put back. If it is firing the wrong cylinders at the wrong time, that would be enough to make it not start. If you think this second guy is actually competent, have him recheck whatever was done to the timing, including the belt itself and the distributor. As of this afternoon, it is being towed to the dealer. Hopefully they will be able to find something. > As of this afternoon, it is being towed to the dealer. Hopefully they will > be able to find something. I just saw this thread. Please post what the final prognosis was. Thx. We'll do - thanks! The dealer said it has something to do with a pulley not catching when it tries to start. Replacing that would be about $750, which would get it to start. After it has started, there will be more problems. Basically, it comes down to the engine needs to be replaced. > The dealer said it has something to do with a pulley not catching when it > tries to start. Replacing that would be about $750, which would get it to > start. After it has started, there will be more problems. Basically, it > comes down to the engine needs to be replaced. hm. bad flywheel. This is the second mechanic ... > This is the second mechanic ... Then find a third. Like the dealer, maybe. And turn quoting back on please. SignatureTeGGeR? The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ <html><input type crash></html> >As I said before - he is not on a wild goose chase. The ignition switch >was checked as well as the coil and they both are fine. >Do you have any suggestions without out making comments about the >mechanic's integrity? I've given you exact details on how to narrow it down to the ignition, fuel, exhaust, or compression in several posts. If you want a "try this", or "try that", then that is exactly what I won't give you. How many parts make up a running engine? Just about any of them can keep it from starting. Are you going to try replacing them all? Until you narrow it down to ignition/fuel/exhaust/compression, you haven't a clue why the car won't start or even where to start looking. When you get that much of a clue, come back. Otherwise, I suggest you torch the car and take the bus. Well, let me say thanks for your help ... but I could have done without the sarcastic attitude. I will admit, I do not know a lot about engines, but you talking to me like I'm an idiot doesn't help either. > I do not know a lot about engines, but you talking to me like I'm > an idiot doesn't help You'd been given lots of advice prior to the ad hominem against your mechanic, including a link by me to the relevant section of the Unoffical FAQ. If your mechanic has been unable to get the car running after all this time, then I'm sorry but he's incompetent. SignatureTeGGeR? The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
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