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Car Forum / Honda Cars / February 20051994 Honda Accord LX stalls
I bought a used honda this week which stalls almost once a day which didnt happen for the 20+ miles I test drove it. Although the problem cannot be reproduced consistently, it has happened during braking at signals, peak hour traffic. Before I forget, I know next to nothing about automobiles and all the comments below are from mechanics who have worked on the car. The used car inspection listed the following issues 1. small leaks in exhaust, oil pan and left axle 2. rough/low idle 3. distributor cap & rotor, spark plug & wires (this was listed as OK for the next few months) I had the exhaust and left axle leaks fixed as they were the major issues. A quick note here, the exhaust leak used to cause the engine to make a whirring sound at 2500rpm. The mechanic checked this out and told me that some fool had messed around with the catalytic converter heat shielding and had cut into the converter. The mechanic welded this back and the whirring sound did stop. This is fine now i.e. no whirring sound. The rest of the issues I postponed until the next servicing. And after it stalled once, I took it to a different mechanic where he replaced the battery wires and test drove it before declaring it fine. He did say something about the battery, alternator and stall all being linked, although it didnt make much sense. I now plan to change the distributor cap & rotor, spark plug & wires (Hopefully this should fix the problem!!!). Coming to my questions now 1. The oil pan leak was said to be "very light around the oil pan gasket", and the mechanic assured me it should be fine till the next servicing. How serious is this issue and could this be the reason behind the stall? 2. While I am getting the distributor cap & rotor, spark plug & wires changed is there anything else that may need to be replaced(A fuel filter/air filter or the likes)?? 3. Any other inputs for stalling issue? I have seen discussions about main relays, igniters and th likes. 4. The battery load test and alternator specs were fine. Can this still be an alternator issue as mentioned by the mechanic?? I would greatly appreciate your inputs on this and more than ready to provide you with any information I may have missed here that you would be interested in. Thanks > 3. Any other inputs for stalling issue? I have seen discussions about > main relays, igniters and th likes. > 4. The battery load test and alternator specs were fine. Can this still > be an alternator issue as mentioned by the mechanic?? Unless it's something I've never heard of, it's unlikely to be the alternator. Stalling is a typical Honda problem with common causes: http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#stalling  SignatureTeGGeR? The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > I bought a used honda this week which stalls almost once a day which > didnt happen for the 20+ miles I test drove it. <SNIP> --------------------------- The only thing we don't know about your new car is the mileage. You may not have to change the spark plug wires. They seem to last forever. The oil pan leak is often no worry either. Since the vehicle is new-to-you, you should probably run a can of injector cleaner thru it, OR a couple tanks of Gasohol, to clean out any sludge or water in the fuel system. This may well cure the stalling. Read the owner's manual and look thru the previous service records to get an understanding of what should be done. If it was serviced at a Honda dealer (we don't know what country you're in), they are very helpful and might give you reprints of recent work orders. Again, depending on the mileage, the tranny fluid might need to be changed, and the Timing Belt might be overdue. Tell us more..... 'Curly' >> I bought a used honda this week which stalls almost once a day which >> didnt happen for the 20+ miles I test drove it. <SNIP> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The only thing we don't know about your new car is the mileage. You may > not have to change the spark plug wires. They seem to last forever. I disagree with the "just about forever" statement. They do eventually begin leaking voltage, especially in the wet. My approach is that if they're more than 7 years old, replace them. > oil pan leak is often no worry either. Since the vehicle is new-to-you, > you should probably run a can of injector cleaner thru it, OR a couple > tanks of Gasohol, to clean out any sludge or water in the fuel system. Heh, water might do it. It would pass through the fuel filter and to the injectors, which means there may be corrosion in the injectors or fuel lines after the filter. A Motorvac Carbon Clean service would be an excellent idea, if for no other reason than to make certain the system is 100% after the fuel filter. A failing EGR another possibility? Terry has seen trouble with low-speed running due to an EGR sticking open. Bad thermostat can confuse the ECU, causing stalling. > This may well cure the stalling. Read the owner's manual and look thru > the previous service records to get an understanding of what should be > done. If it was serviced at a Honda dealer (we don't know what country > you're in), He appears to be in Minnesota. SignatureTeGGeR? The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ The mileage on the honda is 109k and the car is in MN, USA. The transmission fuild and the timing belt have been changed by the previous owner. Another development since the post, it stalled when it was idling in the garage this morning (I usually let the car warm up for a couple of minutes before driving) but didnt stall while running (7 mile journey) > The mileage on the honda is 109k and the car is in MN, USA. The > transmission fuild and the timing belt have been changed by the > previous owner. > > Another development since the post, it stalled when it was idling in > the garage this morning What speed was the engine turning when it was warming up? If cold, it should have flared to about 1,500-1,700rpm on a start, then settled to about 1,300-1,500rpm, then dropped steadily as the car warmed up, until it hit 700rpm or so. Does it idle at a constant speed or does the idle cycle up and down a few hundred revs? What sort of throttle response do you get when you gas it? Any hesitation? Does it drive better when warm or cold? Does the temperature gauge get up to the half-way mark within 5-7 minutes or so? How is your heater output when full-warm? Is it an automatic or a manual? Need to know more here. SignatureTeGGeR? The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > What speed was the engine turning when it was warming up? > > If cold, it should have flared to about 1,500-1,700rpm on a start, then > settled to about 1,300-1,500rpm, then dropped steadily as the car warmed > up, until it hit 700rpm or so. We have an un-insulated garage. So, yes, the temperature and the car was cold (Its around 32F here). I usually open the garage and car door and let the car idle while I am inside. So, didnt see how the tachometer varied today morning, but the rpm rates are pretty close to what you have written the other times that I have been in the car when its idling (1500-1700 on start, 1300-1500 settle and slowly - over a couple minutes - to 700-800) > Does it idle at a constant speed or does the idle cycle up and down a few > hundred revs? Idles at a constant gradual speed > What sort of throttle response do you get when you gas it? Any hesitation? Nope. No hesitation > Does it drive better when warm or cold? I presume you are talking about the engine temperatures. I would say the engine was just warming up when these stalls have happened. The stalls have happened after idling (a couple of minutes) and within 5 miles of starting off. If it is the local weather temperatures - its been around 32F. > Does the temperature gauge get up to the half-way mark within 5-7 minutes > or so? Havent checked this. Too busy concentrating on the tachometer :). Will do it from now on. > How is your heater output when full-warm? The heater is awesome. It heats up the car real fast (We used to have a 1999 Camry and the heater on the Honda is better than the one on Camry) > Is it an automatic or a manual? Automatic > Need to know more here. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ > www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ Some more updates based on a 5 miles drive I had just now. 1. This happened 4 miles after I started off and the car stalled even when I was not braking. (So things have changed today, car stalled during idling and while running at 50mph) 2. The "check engine" lights came on. I pulled over, restarted the car (as per instructions in the manual), the "check engine" lights no longer came on and it ran without problems from there. Also, I was browsing through some other posts and saw a post mention something called the PCV valve. Could this be a problem? > Some more updates based on a 5 miles drive I had just now. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Also, I was browsing through some other posts and saw a post mention > something called the PCV valve. Could this be a problem? A blocked PCV valve will not cause stalling. It will cause oil to be pumped into the intake manifold through the crankcase breather, and eventually past the engine seals, causing leaks onto your driveway. We need that error code from the Check Engine light: Directly beneath the glove box there is a 2-prong connector clipped to a holder (might be blue). Short the two pins with a bent paper clip, then count the blinks of the Check Engine light. There may be long and short blinks, and the sequence will repeat. Report that back here. It could give us a clue. Aaaaand, more questions: 1) So the car stalls both when you are idling at a light AND while you are cruising at a fixed speed? 2) Does it stall when **FULLY WARMED UP**? (That means driving it for AT LEAST 15 or 20 minutes. 3) When it dies, does it appear to be having trouble (shaking, sputtering, etc) or does it just die out of the blue? 4) When it stalls at idle, do the revs appear to jump up and down, or are they rock steady right up to the point when the engine dies? 5) When it stalls at speed, does the car seem to sputter or shake bfore it dies, or does it just cut out? 6) Does it always restart on the first turn of the key, or does it require extensive cranking before it fires up? 7) SignatureTeGGeR? The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > A blocked PCV valve will not cause stalling. It will cause oil to be pumped > into the intake manifold through the crankcase breather, and eventually [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > blinks, and the sequence will repeat. Report that back here. It could give > us a clue. Will give this a shot and report back when I have the results > Aaaaand, more questions: > > 1) So the car stalls both when you are idling at a light AND while you are > cruising at a fixed speed? I guess I must have confused you, so let me rephrase Stall when braking to stop - around 5 times (over the last 2 weeks) Stall when idling in garage - 1 time (today morning) Stall when cruising on the highway - 1 time (today afternoon) > 2) Does it stall when **FULLY WARMED UP**? (That means driving it for AT > LEAST 15 or 20 minutes. I think I have driven the car for longer than 15-20 mins only 3 times until now. And it has NOT stalled on any of these rides. > 3) When it dies, does it appear to be having trouble (shaking, sputtering, > etc) or does it just die out of the blue? It dies out of the blue > 4) When it stalls at idle, do the revs appear to jump up and down, or are > they rock steady right up to the point when the engine dies? As mentioned earlier, this has happened only once (today morning) and I wasnt in the car when this happened. So, I dont really know. > 5) When it stalls at speed, does the car seem to sputter or shake bfore it > dies, or does it just cut out? It just cuts out. > 6) Does it always restart on the first turn of the key, or does it require > extensive cranking before it fires up? Usually it is extensive cranking. (NOTE: It was extensive until I re-read the manual and found recommended technique to restart when "Check Engine" lights came on. Using the technique suggested in the manual, I can get it to restart in a turn or two) > 7) > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ > www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ The code is - One long blink followed by 5 short blinks which i prsume is Error code - 15 ? Now, what does that mean in plain English !!! > The code is - > > One long blink followed by 5 short blinks > > which i prsume is Error code - 15 ? Now, what does that mean in plain > English !!! It means a defective EACV (idle air control valve). That makes sense, too, with your stalling when warming up. Have somebody remove and clean it, then _correctly_ reset the idle speed. Unfortunately, there are a number of things that control the idle and each needs to be checked for correct functioning. The EACV is a good place to start. If you unplug the EACV's electrical connector, does the car still idle? SignatureTeGGeR? The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ A quick question before I get the EACV cleaned up - Are EACV and Igniton output related?? The reason I ask this is according to http://autorepair.about.com/library/ts/obd-i/bl-dtcs-58a.htm the error that we got i.e. error 15 means 15 Ignition Output Signal. > A quick question before I get the EACV cleaned up - Are EACV and > Igniton output related?? Not at all. > The reason I ask this is according to > http://autorepair.about.com/library/ts/obd-i/bl-dtcs-58a.htm the error > that we got i.e. error 15 means > > 15 Ignition Output Signal. You're right. 15 is Ignition Out signal. Sorry about that. I was going by this: http://tech.hybridgarage.com/tech/codes.html and I got confused by the fact that the description is *UNDER* the relevant code. Oops! Sounds like you may have a broken wire or a bad igniter. There is a check procedure. This one is for the Integra, but it may be similar to your car: http://tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/dtc-15-ign-out-sig-1.jpg http://tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/dtc-15-ign-out-sig-2.jpg (Note: The mention of "CODE 10" on the first page is a typo in the factory manual.) Sorry for the EACV error. SignatureTeGGeR? The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ Thanks for all your help Tegger One last question thats still on my mind is - Can a bad wire/igniter explain all the symptoms that my car has had (I mean can it stall the car when it is idling, stopping or cruising)?? I will run through the flow chart sometime this weekend and report my findings and (hopefully!!!) the problem will be fixed *fingers crossed* > Thanks for all your help Tegger > > One last question thats still on my mind is - Can a bad wire/igniter > explain all the symptoms that my car has had (I mean can it stall the > car when it is idling, stopping or cruising)?? A bad wire/igniter can cause at least some of this, yes. However... The problem is, because of the car's age, the issues it had when you bought it, and the strong possibility of other problems, you need to have a mechanic familiar with Hondas check this thing out thoroughly. It had a rough/low idle. It had a split CV joint boot. The distributor cap, rotor and wires are suspect. All these things suggest neglect. There may be other things wrong as well. Was that "low/rough idle" ever fixed? If so, what fixed it? Is the PCV system pumping oil into the intake? Is the throttle body clean or gummed up? Is the EACV fouled with the same goop? Is there rust and corrosion in the engine compartment? Has the car ever been in a collision that might have pinched, abraded or severed electrical wires? Are any wires breaking at the point where they join their crimp connector? Are the connectors on firmly, and not corroded or broken? Any corrosion in the fuse boxes? Are there any aftermarket <gag> modifications that might have been less- than-expertly done? Alarm, remote starter, stereo, power antenna, that sort of thing? You'd be amazed how many problems can arise from modified wiring if it's not done to the highest standard. One Toyota tech told me once that 99% of the electrical problems he's seen are due to poorly-executed modifications. You need to go through this portion of the FAQ (see below), especially any remote links in it. The FAQ represents the collecive wisdom and experience of some very knowledgeable people, and addresses issues specific to Hondas. http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#stalling SignatureTeGGeR? The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ Ok, some updates. Looks like the problem has been fixed and it was a BAD IGNITER (which has since been replaced). I took the car to the mechanic and he diagnosed the problem was due to the igniter. He did mention that it could also be because of the coil or the worst case - entire distributor. Luckily it was just the igniter but the repair shop (which happens to be with AAA and usually gives a 1yr/12,000 mile warranty on the part) did not give any warranty saying that the coil was not replaced as per their recommendations!!! So, I was wondering if 1. The coil (~180$ for parts+labour) should be replaced at this point of time as it seems to be working just fine? 2. The mechanic told me that an old/weak coil could damage the igniter (hence the "no warranty"). Is this true? (It does not seem to make sense to me as I read that the igniter feeds the coil and not vice versa) so, what happened to the used car warranty? Was it bought as-is? I was thinking that you should return to the dealer and demand an exchange for the grief it has caused you. I had the same experience when my 94 DX went over the 100,000 miles. Except that it wouldn't start back up, which is different from your situation. The mechanic replaced the entire distributor. It works great now. |
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