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Car Forum / Honda Cars / February 2005Brake problems on 1999 1.6 Civic Vti Coupe.
I have a 1999 1.6 Civic Vti Coupe with which I am having brake problems. It has done 39k miles and went into my local Honda dealer to have the pads changed when the right rear wear indicator started to contact the disc. Front and rear were changed. When the car went in to the dealer the brakes were working perfectly and were very sharp especially at low speed braking (30 mph or less) and requiring minimal pedal pressure. When it came out the pedal required much more force to get the car to stop especially now from slow speeds. Emergency stops work OK. Many days of spending money and arguing with the dealer got me nowhere, in the end neither did contacting Honda UK. The car has done over 1000 miles now so they are bedded in and still feel the same. The system has been bled twice. I have had another new set of pads on the front, different make fitted at a different garage, no difference so the Honda ones went back in. When the disks (rotors) have a light coating of morning rust on them then the brakes pull up like they used to, once the rust has gone (2 presses), back to normal. Front rotors very lightly scored (way less than 0.5mm). Front Rotor thickness measured at 20.98mm on a digital Micrometer. I re-surfaced the front pads just in case they were glazed, no effect. I sanded the front rotors with a mechanical detail sander and there was an improvement until they went shiny again. It used to feel like my 2000 1.8 Vti Civic (22k miles) but now it feels more like my 1989 2.0i Prelude (160k miles on the original rotors) The best description of how it feels is it feels like you have just been through water, light braking poor, heavy braking OK but with much more pedal pressure required. This has been ongoing now since mid October 2004, can anyone please tell me what the problem is with my braking system? Thanks G > The best description of how it feels is it feels like you have > just been through water, light braking poor, heavy braking OK but with > much more pedal pressure required. > This has been ongoing now since mid October 2004, can anyone please > tell me what the problem is with my braking system? I've read this several times over, trying to narrow this down. It sounds at this point like either of two things are happening here: 1) Rear brakes are not functioning, or 2) the new pads are too hard. How well does the parking brake (handbrake) work? Will it easily hold the car on an incline, or do you really have to haul hard on the lever to get the car to stay? If you bring the car up to speed, then use the handbrake ONLY to brake, does the car skew to one side or does it go straight? (Hold the handbrake button in with your thumb while you do this, and make sure there's nobody close behind.) When's your next MoT?  SignatureTeGGeR? The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ Il Fri, 28 Jan 2005 06:29:00 -0500, Tech21 ha scritto > I have a 1999 1.6 Civic Vti Coupe with which I am having brake problems. > It has done 39k miles and went into my local Honda dealer to have the pads [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the end neither did contacting Honda UK. The car has done over 1000 miles > now so they are bedded in and still feel the same. It happened to me. Sometimes there was much less breaking force with no apparent reason (no fading, no heating, no strange noises). When I argued the 3rd time the brake pads were replaced with original Honda - they should be Nissin (no Nissan!) - instead of no-name ones. All was fine afterwards. Hope this helps Thanks guys. I am going to swap the front pads over to the aftermarket set that I have and see if there is a difference over a couple of hundred miles because I think that I may have removed them prematurely (after only 4 days) and need to give them a fair crack of the whip. The handbrake is fine and holds on a hill no problem and doesn't cause any change in direction or the car to skew if used when the car is moving, if anything, the slowing power using just the handbrake feels better than I would normaly have expected. If you hit the foot brake when using the handbrake the brake performance still feels as bad as before. The MOT is due in May but it will pass an MOT brake test as the test is all to do with maximum braking levels and the maximum braking level of the car isn't an issue it is the low speed braking and the pedal pressure required that is the problem (the pass level is set at around 50% efficent in the UK for an MOT but I for one would not like to drive a car with 50% efficent brakes!!). I say the high speed braking is OK BUT, the car will stop in a very short space from 60mph and above if you brake hard but there appears to be what could only be described as a slight delay before the brakes start to bite and I am sure this wasn't happening before (servo perhaps? any way to test it? possible crimped brake pipe?). I am not sure what type the "Honda" pads are so I will get the part numbers and makers name from them when I remove them today and will post the numbers here after I get them just in case they are the wrong ones (will also post the aftermarket numbers as well). One thing that could be a problem, the Civic 1.6 Vti Coupe's were manufactured in the USA and I am wondering if the UK supplied pads are a harder compound or are from a different supplier, not the one that supplied the originals? As yet I haven't checked the rear pads and rotors so I will do that today (if possible) if it stops raining that is!!! Many thanks for taking the time to reply G > Thanks guys. > I am going to swap the front pads over to the aftermarket set that I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > If you hit the foot brake when using the handbrake the brake > performance still feels as bad as before. If your handbrake is working properly then the rear brakes are probably fine. Has the garage checked to make sure the pistons are free in their bores? If the pistons have been extended and have accumulated gum on them, then pushed back into their bores to accommodate new pads, they can stick on the gum that has built up. When this happens, they will be more reluctant to emerge from their bores when you step on the pedal, but will also drag a bit when you let off the pedal. If the pistons are free in their bores, they will extend about 1/16" when the pedal is pushed (with the caliper off the rotor), but then move back in slightly when the pedal is released. If this happens correctly, and if the pads and calipers are all free on their slides, then it must be the composition of the pads. Maybe your British pads are a different composition than ours (harder), and they need to heat up a bit before working properly, which would suggest a high metallic component. Does your Honda dealer have different pad grades? I'd be wary of aftermarket pads, which are sometimes even harder than OEM and can overheat the rotors to the point of warpage, and even cause them to go blue from the heat. SignatureTeGGeR? The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > Thanks guys. > I am going to swap the front pads over to the aftermarket set that I > have and see if there is a difference over a couple of hundred miles > because I think that I may have removed them prematurely (after only > 4 days) and need to give them a fair crack of the whip. [...] Do you know what pads were in it when you noticed the need to change them? The pads in my old BMW320 were aftermarket ones and were wearing a bit thin so at a servicing session I decided to put BMW ones in. I was amazed at the extra pressure needed to brake around town. They bedded in over the next week or two but never to the point that the other pads were. I'm wondering if this is the case with your pads? SignatureGraham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro-society.freeserve.co.uk/ Wessex Dorset UK Astro Society's Web pages, Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter. Brake pads details: Aftermarket Made by MK KASHIYAMA CORP, JAPAN (this info only on instructions in the box) Numbers on pads 90R 01280 / 043 D5070M (there are the numbers 01 after the M but only in the number on the box, not on the pad). Honda pads Common to all pads NISSIN NBK D6643HFF 001 [e6] 010020 There are a series of white inked numbers that differentiate right and left with wear indicator and the outer two pads R/H/F 453810 and 453824 L/H/F 453717 and 453824 The pads also looked to have lost quite a lot of thickness when I removed them this morning. Measuring the friction material only not including the metal backing, there is just under 9mm left on each pad, didn?t measure ?em new but they look visibly thinner after only 1000 miles. I asked the dealer the day the car was taken back in if they kept the old pads or indeed if they had made a note of the removed pads make, thickness etc and they hadn?t bothered. When I worked as a mechanic we always gave any removed components back to the customer as they were the customers property (oil filters being the exception to this, unless they were requested, and some were!!). The garage said the pistons were clean and free (but without checking myself I can't be sure). I will check the piston moves back in after the pedal is pushed and report back. One thing of note, when I did repeated emergency stops (around 5 or 6 of them) on 3 occasions when starting off after stopping, the car pulled to the left for a short time as if a piston was sticking. The pads are easy to get in and out of the spring shims and don't appear to be binding and the calliper slides all appear to be free (front only, I haven't checked the rear as yet) Thanks once again G If all else fails would it be worth having a few thou turned (or preferably ground) off the rotors, or fitting new rotors and pads? Cheers G > If all else fails would it be worth having a few thou turned (or > preferably ground) off the rotors, or fitting new rotors and pads? If you want, but I thought you tried new pads and rotors already? If you're using OEM pads and rotors, swapping them would not likely achieve anything. I'm sure your problem is something not moving as it should, whether pistons, pads or caliper. SignatureTeGGeR? The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ Only changed the pads not rotors. I did sand the rotors with a hand held Bosch detail sander and there was an improvement similar (but not as pronounced) to the improvement when the rotors have a light coating of overnight rust on them. I think I agree that it is something not moving as it should and given what was done (i.e. pads pushed back in callipers) I think that it would be prudent to have the calliper bores and pistons cleaned to see if that makes any difference. The one thing that I find odd is that when the car went back in to the dealers the first time (after a couple of days) they found air in the system and charged me another ?30 (on top of the ?200+ for the pads being fitted) for removing it. When I asked why the charge when they had just fitted pads and should have bled the system then, the dealership got very defensive and quite hostile when I refused to pay and would not give me my keys back until I paid the money. They insisted that they could not have got air in the system and it must have been something that I had done to the car which was not true, I only started working on the car when I had exhausted every avenue of getting the Franchise to get my brakes working the same way as they were when the car came in to have the new pads fitted. The total defensiveness of the dealer made me think that they had done something to the car that they were not going to admit to and then 6 months down the line tell me that I need a new master cylinder or a new servo. I have used this dealership for the last 9 years or so and have only had problems with them when the local owned franchise was taken over by a much larger national franchise also I have found out from on of the guys there who worked on the service desk and has since left the place that most of the mechanics who had been there 15 years+ had left the place and gone working for Jaguar, Ford, Volvo, Mazda etc so something there is rotten and I feel that they have "economical" with the truth over what has happened to my car. All I want now is to get my Civic working properly at whatever the cost and I will NEVER be using that franchise again, problem is that they have taken over nearly all of the local owned and family owned Honda garages for miles around leaving me no option but to drive miles to get to a dealer that isn't owned by this particular franchise. Sorry about the soapbox rant but I needed to get it off my chest and I still believe that they have screwed up something major and expensive and are keeping quiet about it. I still favour that they have knobbed the master cylinder in some way shape or form when they pushed the fluid back into it as opposed to cracking the bleed nipples off and pushing the fluid out that way. Is there any way of testing the master cylinder or servo to get quantifiable figures?? All the help is much appreciated and I will get to the bottom of this, eventually. > I still favour that they have knobbed the master cylinder in some way > shape or form when they pushed the fluid back into it as opposed to > cracking the bleed nipples off and pushing the fluid out that way. > Is there any way of testing the master cylinder or servo to get > quantifiable figures?? Step on the foot pedal and hold it. If it eventually goes to the floor, there is a leak somewhere, possibly in the master cylinder. If the pedal does NOT go to the floor, but settles to a position OFF the floor and stays there, the master cylinder is OK. You mention air in the lines. This is interesting, and I had not thought of that. Air will cause the pedal to feel spongy and soft. You had not reported a spongy, soft pedal before, just a delayed pedal effect. I wonder if I've misinterpreted your description? A note here: Sometimes removing air from the calipers is not easy, especially at the rears. Bubbles can adhere to internal surfaces. You may need to remove the caliper from the mount bracket, insert a piece of wood to keep the piston still, rap the caliper with a nylon hammer while turning it over in your hands, then bleed. This may need to be done repeatedly. It is possible to accidentally get air in the master cylinder and proportioning valve while bleeding if you forget to check the master cylinder level as you work (easy to do!). If air gets into the master cylinder, this can be difficult to remove without "bench bleeding" it, which means removing the MC from the car. SignatureTeGGeR? The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ The pedal doesn't feel spongy in the normal sense of having air in the system it just requires more effort (and pushing farer down) to get the car to slow down. Sometimes if you pump the pedal the car will pull up better but only on the odd occasion, so it doesn't appear to look like air in the system in the normal sense. The pedal doesn't feel any different now as to when it first came back from the dealers after having the pads fitted. I took it back for a mechanic to test drive on a Saturday morning, he drove it, said the that the pedal pressure required felt like the servo hadn't been connected but (same as I did) he pumped the brakes with the engine off to get rid of the vacuum, pedal went solid, pressure on the pedal - switch engine on - pedal goes down so the servo is working. He booked the car back in and they found air in the system. Since getting the car back after pads were fitted the pedal has felt the same, with air in the system (as they claimed) or bled out (as they also claimed). It feels the same now as it did before the Honda mechanic test-drove it and said that there was a problem with it. This is why I am very pissed off because nothing that has been done to the car since has made any difference to how the pedal feels, the only time it feels OK is when the rotors have rusted up over night, this is the only car out of the 5 that I own that pulls up better with light rust on the rotors, all the others (Civic 1.8 Vti, 2.0 Prelude, Saab Griffin V6 and a 305CuI Chevrolet C10) don't start working properly untill the rust has been removed by the first few brake applications. The mechanic who test drove it no longer works there (so I am told) so there is no way I can ask him if it feels any better and all the other mechanics from there who have driven it say it's OK, it's safe and that "..they all feel like that.." when I know for a fact that they don't all feel like that. I assume that I check the M/C with the engine off and the servo at atmospheric? The pedal can be pushed all the way to the floor with the servo running, is this normal? because it is much harder to floor the pedal on my 1.8 Vti. Is there anything electrical that could affect the brakes, something that I can remove the fuse to dis the circuit so the electrics are out of the equation? Regards G > The pedal can be pushed all the way to the floor with the servo > running, is this normal? NO NO NO! Not at all. The pedal should stop a good inch off the floor. If the pedal goes to the floor right away if you push hard enough, there's air in the system somewhere. It might not be in the lines themselves, but in the MC or calipers. If the pedal takes 30 secxonds or so to sink slowly to the floor, there is the possibility of a leak, most likely in the MC. > Is there anything electrical that could affect the brakes, The only thing I can think of is ABS. Did they bleed the ABS at the same time as the rest of the system? You've got air in there. SignatureTeGGeR? 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