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Car Forum / Honda Cars / February 20052003 Honda Accord Oil Drain Washer Replacement
The Honda manual recommends that the washer be replaced with every oil change. As a result, I end up going to a Honda dealer and pay a premium for a fairly commoditized service. I follow the manual's suggestion as to when to do maintenance services. 1) Is there a significant impact if this washer is not replaced? For example, every other time or once a year??? 2) Is it possible to buy the washer myself and have it changed at a non-Honda shop? > The Honda manual recommends that the washer be replaced with every oil > change. As a result, I end up going to a Honda dealer and pay a > premium for a fairly commoditized service. You could simply make one trip to the dealer and buy a bunch of the washers. Then you could have Jiffy Lube use them as needed. Of course, you're never sure the Jiffy Lube guy actually uses it... > 1) Is there a significant impact if this washer is not replaced? For > example, every other time or once a year??? It's a one-use washer. It's a crush washer. It's designed to seal the bolt against the pan. Once crushed, any re-use of it won't serve the purpose. You might as well not use it. > 2) Is it possible to buy the washer myself and have it changed at a > non-Honda shop? Of course. There's no magic to it. >>The Honda manual recommends that the washer be replaced with every oil >>change. As a result, I end up going to a Honda dealer and pay a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Of course, you're never sure the Jiffy Lube guy actually uses it... Or you could just do your own oil changes. >>1) Is there a significant impact if this washer is not replaced? For >>example, every other time or once a year??? > > It's a one-use washer. It's a crush washer. It's designed to seal the > bolt against the pan. Once crushed, any re-use of it won't serve the > purpose. You might as well not use it. Not exactly true. After a reuse it begins to loose it's effectiveness but it wont catastrophically fail on you if you forget to swap it out one time. Add to this you can re-anneal the all metal type, those that are built of a metal encase fibrous material less so. It's _supposed_ to be replaced each time, not a MUST replace each time. Follow your own council though. This free advice over the Internet is worth what you pay for it. >>2) Is it possible to buy the washer myself and have it changed at a >>non-Honda shop? > > Of course. There's no magic to it. Yepper, this is the 'me too' part of the post. TBerk >The Honda manual recommends that the washer be replaced with every oil >change. As a result, I end up going to a Honda dealer and pay a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >1) Is there a significant impact if this washer is not replaced? For >example, every other time or once a year??? Probably not, but if there is a problem, it could be catastrophic engine failure from losing all your new oil, so just change it. The odds are low, but the stakes are high. >2) Is it possible to buy the washer myself and have it changed at a >non-Honda shop? They're so inexpensive that the last time I asked for some, the mechanic gave me five of them for free. He said it wasn't worth ringing it up. So, yes, your dealer should be glad to give you a supply. If they charge you anything, it's going to be nominal. Ron >>The Honda manual recommends that the washer be replaced with every oil >>change. As a result, I end up going to a Honda dealer and pay a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > engine failure from losing all your new oil, so just change it. The > odds are low, but the stakes are high. How exactly is this going to come about? Not being a smart a.s, but I'm wondering how you mean. TBerk When I went to an oil change place while I was in college, I asked the technician if he had the drain plug washers. He assured me that he did. Later that day, feeling confident that I had done everything I could (short of doing the work myself) to keep my car maintained, I suffered an oil leak. I took the car back immediately and asked the guy if he could look at it... he told me it was leaking from the drain plug. I asked him why he didn't replace it when I specifically mentioned it to him.... and he told me that it looked fine to him. It was replaced at the previous oil change. That's reason enough for me to replace it each time. (and also reason enough to watch the oil change guy at EVERY step.) > How exactly is this going to come about? Not being a smart a.s, but I'm > wondering how you mean. >>>The Honda manual recommends that the washer be replaced with every oil >>>change. As a result, I end up going to a Honda dealer and pay a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >How exactly is this going to come about? Not being a smart a.s, but I'm >wondering how you mean. It's very unlikely but conceivable that failure of a drain-plug seal could result in loss of enough oil for an engine to seize. Something like this happened to my brother-in-law who got an oil change at a quick-change place. They didn't get all of the old oil-filter gasket off. The resultant oil loss came to a critical point while his wifelet was driving the van. She came home from shopping, walked in the house and asked, "Does that little red oil-thingy light on the dashboard mean anything when it's on?" The engine had continued to run without oil, but once it was turned off, it seized and could NEVER be restarted -- catastrophic engine failure; you can't even rebuild these things. That cost him $1,500 back in the 1970s. It would be a lot more today, and the scenario could conceivably occur with a leak from an overused drain-plug washer. It's not likely, but if something like this hasn't happened a few times, I'd be surprised. Ron > On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 00:00:10 GMT, pencilcup <dontbother@here.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >1) Is there a significant impact if this washer is not replaced? For > >example, every other time or once a year??? > Probably not, but if there is a problem, it could be catastrophic > engine failure from losing all your new oil, so just change it. The > odds are low, but the stakes are high. I always thought the bigger concern is overtorquing the drain bolt (and ultimately tending to strip the threads) because the used crush washer has lost some of its compressibility. Less compressibility = less seal for same torque = higher torque required, for which the assembly as a whole is not designed In my young and foolish years, I re-used the washer for years on my 1991 Civic. No problems, but a few years ago I did switch to using a new OEM washer each oil change. My drain plug/washer did seem to develop a leak last year. I installed a new drain plug (from Autozone) and the problem has not re-ocurred. > >2) Is it possible to buy the washer myself and have it changed at a > >non-Honda shop? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ringing it up. So, yes, your dealer should be glad to give you a > supply. If they charge you anything, it's going to be nominal. Likewise: They're only a quarter apiece or so at the dealer's. One charming Honda dealer parts guy even handed me a fistful not long ago, and when I asked "How much will that be?," he said, "No charge." > The Honda manual recommends that the washer be replaced with every oil > change. As a result, I end up going to a Honda dealer and pay a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 2) Is it possible to buy the washer myself and have it changed at a > non-Honda shop? --------------------------------- A used one is way better than none at all, since the Honda bolt HAS to have a washer of some type under it or it will start cutting new threads into the pan . . You can buy them in quantity from places like NAPA, for cheap. BTW, if it leaks a tiny bit, it will foul your driveway, one drip at a time. Since the sump holds 4 litres, you'd have to wait a long time to loose much oil. Monkey-Lube places will install some kind of washer if you ask (or if they think), but it may not even be close to the correct size / thickness / material. 'Curly' Have owned a 91 Accord for 10 years now and do all my own oil changes every 5,000 kms, and have NEVER changed this washer in 180,000 kms. It has NEVER leaked. This is a conspiracy by Honda to charge you an extra $1 for every oil change they do! > The Honda manual recommends that the washer be replaced with every oil > change. As a result, I end up going to a Honda dealer and pay a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 2) Is it possible to buy the washer myself and have it changed at a > non-Honda shop? > Have owned a 91 Accord for 10 years now and do all my own oil changes every > 5,000 kms, and have NEVER changed this washer in 180,000 kms. It has NEVER > leaked. This is a conspiracy by Honda to charge you an extra $1 for every > oil change they do! they wont change it on their own, will they? is that part of their $16.95 service? > The Honda manual recommends that the washer be replaced with every oil > change. As a result, I end up going to a Honda dealer and pay a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 1) Is there a significant impact if this washer is not replaced? For > example, every other time or once a year??? im still on my original honda washer after 6 oil changes. when i start to get the drips, ill replace it. > 2) Is it possible to buy the washer myself and have it changed at a > non-Honda shop? of course! cheaphondaparts, majestic honda, etc. should all carry em for under a buck a piece. i should probably order some myself. > The Honda manual recommends that the washer be replaced with every oil > change. As a result, I end up going to a Honda dealer and pay a > premium for a fairly commoditized service. You can get assorted washers at any auto supply store. They're usually plastic or fiber, and you need to reduce the tightening torque to compensate for the different characteristics of the different material. Jelly Lube and other outfits can supply their own washer, which won't be aluminum, so you don't _need_ to use the dealer for oil changes. However, a non-Honda shop will also use a non-Honda oil filter, which will not filter as well and may have inferior drainback characteristics. They're also much more likely to use cheap, low-grade oils to keep their costs down. It might seem expensive to get the changes done at the dealer when you're under warranty, but there are advantages to it. > I follow the manual's > suggestion as to when to do maintenance services. Good for you. You're helping to extend the life of your expensive expenditure. > 1) Is there a significant impact if this washer is not replaced? For > example, every other time or once a year?? Replace with EVERY change. The OEM aluminum washers compress when torqued down for the first time and the metal becomes more dense than it was when new. You CAN just flip it over for the second use, but then the margin of error for overtorquing becomes much smaller. Non-aluminum washers will compress as well, and may not seal properly the second time, resulting in leaks. > 2) Is it possible to buy the washer myself and have it changed at a > non-Honda shop? Another caveat on the above: Honda oil pan threads are notoriously easy to strip. If you've been getting your oil changed by an aftermarket shop and they strip the threads, a new pan is over $200. Honda won't even look at you and you'll be forced to try to get compensation from whatever shops(s) you used. And if you used more than one, you can forget about ever getting a penny, as they'll all point fingers at each other.  SignatureTeGGeR? The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ TeGGer® wrote: >>The Honda manual recommends that the washer be replaced with every oil >>change. As a result, I end up going to a Honda dealer and pay a [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > The OEM aluminum washers compress when torqued down for the first time and > the metal becomes more dense than it was when new. doesn't become more dense. it becomes harder as it deforms, and that deformation is from where it squeezes into the small surface imperfections of the mating surfaces to form the seal. that's why they need replacing periodically - they become too hard to deform sufficiently & therefore seal properly. > You CAN just flip it > over for the second use, but then the margin of error for overtorquing > becomes much smaller. you can use these washers several times. i do, but i /don't/ flip because that limits the degree of deformation it incurrs each time, hence they can be used over. not ideal of course, but as long as they still seal, it's not a problem. > Non-aluminum washers will compress as well, and may not seal properly the > second time, resulting in leaks. some of the non-aluminum washers are fine. an old honda of mine had a steel washer with a rubber lip on it. worked great & completely reusable. others like fiber washers can be bad because they tend to break if over torqued. and you don't know until the blue smoke's trailing out behind you & the red light comes on. don't ask me how i know that! best to stick with oem. >>2) Is it possible to buy the washer myself and have it changed at a >>non-Honda shop? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > used. And if you used more than one, you can forget about ever getting a > penny, as they'll all point fingers at each other. >>>The Honda manual recommends that the washer be replaced with every >>>oil change. As a result, I end up going to a Honda dealer and pay a [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > they need replacing periodically - they become too hard to deform > sufficiently & therefore seal properly. So you're saying it's work-hardening that causes the problem? >> You CAN just flip it >> over for the second use, but then the margin of error for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > hence they can be used over. not ideal of course, but as long as they > still seal, it's not a problem. I'm reluctant to reuse just because of the thread-stripping problem. > best to stick with oem. Amen!! SignatureTeGGeR? The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ TeGGer® wrote: >>TeGGer® wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > So you're saying it's work-hardening that causes the problem? yup! >>>You CAN just flip it >>>over for the second use, but then the margin of error for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I'm reluctant to reuse just because of the thread-stripping problem. understood. and much more safe. that said, stripping shouldn't be a problem unless the plug is habitually over-torqued. it only needs to be tight enough to seal, and with an aluminum washer, that's not that tight. if i've planned ahead, i'll always use a new washer, but when i've ordered a package of filters & forgotten to order the washers at the same time, i've discovered that unabused washers continue to seal quite well. >>best to stick with oem. > > Amen!! Honda dealership will throw in a washer when you buy a filter from them. Usually a crush washer will last 4-5 oil changes before REALLY needing replacement. I order about 10-20 when I order transmission parts from www.slhonda.com when my stock get low. > Honda dealership will throw in a washer when you buy a filter from them. My greedy dealer charges me a whopping 50? for each when I buy a filter. It'll bankrupt me, I tell ya. SignatureTeGGeR? The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > However, a non-Honda shop will also use a non-Honda oil filter, which will > not filter as well and may have inferior drainback characteristics. > They're > also much more likely to use cheap, low-grade oils to keep their costs > down. I have news for you, I have yet to find a Honda dealer which uses Honda brand motor oils. Each one seems to have it's own favorite supplier like Pennzoil, Valvoline, etc. ... just as the quick lube places do. The Fram mfg. Honda brand oil filter is nothing special either. Image does not equal reality. John >> However, a non-Honda shop will also use a non-Honda oil filter, which >> will not filter as well and may have inferior drainback [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I have news for you, I have yet to find a Honda dealer which uses > Honda brand motor oils. I never said that. I said "cheap, low-grade oils". > The Fram mfg. Honda brand oil filter is nothing special either. And you know this...how? SignatureTeGGeR? The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > The Honda manual recommends that the washer be replaced with every oil > change. As a result, I end up going to a Honda dealer and pay a > premium for a fairly commoditized service. I follow the manual's > suggestion as to when to do maintenance services. Any *good* shop which works on Hondas should stock these and should change them as a matter of course. Find yourself a competent independent if you are not willing to go the DIY route. Yes, you can buy the right sized washers at most real auto parts stores or at the parts counter at your Honda dealer. John |
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