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Car Forum / Honda Cars / March 2005Help. 91 Accord - 4 Oil Pan gaskets in 7 months!
1991 Honda Accord EXR 4 dr September 2004 I had a hole in my oil pan so I brought it into my dealer (up until now their service has been very good). They replaced the oil pan and gasket. In October 2004 I developed a major oil leak. The dealer said it was a defective gasket and replaced it, no charge. In November 2004 I developed another major oil leak. The dealer said it was another defective gasket and replaced it no charge. I asked for financial compensation and they said they don't do that and gave me a $65 credit on my account. They said this time it will not leak!! In December 2004 I had a fuel line leak (unrelated to the oil leaks), however they noticed that there was a small oil leak at the balance shaft seal, oil pump ring. I then took the car to my new mechanic who fixed the gas leak for $50 instead of $800 as quoted by the dealer. The new mechanic said the new oil leak was not serious and did not have to be dealt with. It was just a small leak and was not dripping. This week (March 2005) I developed another major oil leak. I brought it to my new mechanic who said it was the oil pan gasket again! He also noticed that they had used silicone all around the gasket and that is why it was leaking!! I then brought it back to the dealer for another free replacement. The dealer replaced the gasket again. They admitted that when they changed it in November that they did use silicone all around the gasket, but that the reason that it started leaking is that the oil dripping down from the balance shaft seal, oil pump ring managed to eat away at the neoprene seal and that until I fixed the other leak at the oil pump seal, which is very minor, the gasket would continue to fail. So the oil inside the oil pan would not affect the seal, but a minor leak on the outside would??? When I pressed for financial compensation they said they would see what they could do about going back to Honda for the first 2 defective seals although now they are saying that the oil pump seal leak could have been there in September although they only discovered in December. (Bulls**t!!) This time when they changed the gasket they only put a bit of silicone on the 4 corners. My questions are: 1) When they changed the gasket in November and put silicone on the whole gasket, could this have caused problems? 2) Could a small oil leak in the oilpump seal, drip down onto the oil pan gasket and cause the seal or silicone to deteriorate? Any other comments, insight, suggestions much appreciated. >My questions are: >1) When they changed the gasket in November and put silicone on the whole >gasket, could this have caused problems? I don't see how. >2) Could a small oil leak in the oilpump seal, drip down onto the oil pan >gasket and cause the seal or silicone to deteriorate? No. Don't go to dealers except for warranty work and parts. Sometimes if the pan bolts are overtorqued it can pull the metal around the bolt hole into a little hump that compromises the ability of the pan gasket to seal. With the pan off, check the mating surface with a straight-edge. If there are humps, carefully file them flat. Where are you? Ottawa? Toronto? I am located in Ottawa. >> My questions are: >> 1) When they changed the gasket in November and put silicone on the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Where are you? Ottawa? Toronto? >I am located in Ottawa. Go here: http://www.plus1performance.com Pat will do right by you. It's a small shop in an obscure location, but that's the best kind. Such places depend on word of mouth recommendations from satisfied customers, they get no walk-in business. try PCV valve. I have since found out that there is no probelm with the PCV valve and their is no Blowby > try PCV valve. weird, must be a bad install on the gasket then, like the other suggested, maybe over torqued? t I agree with John about the overtorquing, but not about filing the humps off, as that would weaken (and maybe enlarge) the area that the bolts go through the oil pan flange. I would suggest chucking a large punch vertically in a vise, putting each of the mounting holes on top of it and (carefully) tapping each one flat with a hammer until the area has the same level surface as the area between each hole. Clean all of the area that the gasket will rest on and reinstall, being careful not to overtorque, and to work from each corner toward the middle when running the bolts up. If overtorquing was the cause of the problem, when you remove the pan and examine the old gasket, you can frequently see signs that the gasket is thinner, or maybe even breached in the areas of the bolt holes. Have the dealer remove the pan in your presence and look for these signs. If they are present, suggest that they repair or replace the oil pan at their expense, since this would be clear evidence of improper repairs. Good luck. >>My questions are: >>1) When they changed the gasket in November and put silicone on the whole [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Where are you? Ottawa? Toronto? >I agree with John about the overtorquing, but not about filing the humps >off, as that would weaken (and maybe enlarge) the area that the bolts go >through the oil pan flange. I would suggest chucking a large punch >vertically in a vise, putting each of the mounting holes on top of it and >(carefully) tapping each one flat with a hammer until the area has the same >level surface as the area between each hole. You misunderstand. The humps are in the block metal the pan is bolted to. Overtorquing can literally pull the metal around the threads out of the block a thou or so. It's not much, and only over an area about twice the diameter of the bolt, but it's often the cause of mysterious leakage. >If overtorquing was the cause of the problem, when you remove the pan and >examine the old gasket, you can frequently see signs that the gasket is >thinner, or maybe even breached in the areas of the bolt holes. Yes. If the metal on the block mating surface is pulled, then filing it smooth (or even chamfering the hole slightly) is certainly in order. However, I much more frequently have seen the relatively thin metal of the oil pan itself distorted. Either way, the result would be to put more pressure on the gasket in the bolt hole area, and that would need to be addressed in order to effect a complete seal.Either way, both would have to be checked. >>I agree with John about the overtorquing, but not about filing the humps >>off, as that would weaken (and maybe enlarge) the area that the bolts go [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Yes. If the gasket failed because of oil contact, the whole motor would be leaking ALL THE TIME. Likely the mechanics are OVER tightening the oil pan bolts, crushing the gasket and forcing it outward, causing the leaks. > 1991 Honda Accord EXR 4 dr > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > Any other comments, insight, suggestions much appreciated. > but that the reason that it started leaking is that the oil > dripping down from the balance shaft seal, oil pump ring managed to eat > away at the neoprene seal and that until I fixed the other leak at the > oil pump seal, which is very minor, the gasket would continue to fail. Thats a HOOT! I'll add that one to my list of VERY funny quotes about bad service. Neoprene by itself is oil resistant. Its the same rubber your oil seals are made of. If a small leak could destroy an oil pan gasket, its NOT made of neoprene! > My questions are: > 1) When they changed the gasket in November and put silicone on the > whole gasket, could this have caused problems? Silicone is typically NOT oil resistant and makes a poor choice for a gasket sealer for anything that has oil behind it. > 2) Could a small oil leak in the oilpump seal, drip down onto the oil > pan gasket and cause the seal or silicone to deteriorate? It could cause the silicone to deteriorate, but thats not your real problem! Hey others wrote about "bumps" and filing and all that in other posts. Let me address some of that: On the motor itself you should check for pulled threads and file any protrusions flat, but they really dont have a big effect on the gasket sealing. On the pan- Overtightening will cause humps in the steel that will affect sealing. When the pan is off, check to see that each hole is flat. If it isnt you can use the ball end of your ballpeen hammer and knock the pan flat or even slightly concave. My personal preference for a sealer if you choose to use one is Gasgacinch. Tighten the bolts snug, but the gasket shouldnt be "oozing" from the joint. Check the bolts again after a few heat cycles to make sure they are still snug. Using a nutdriver is sufficient for this check-up. Happy fixing! -Pete Me thinks you bottom out the car and the oil pan hit the road/speed bump a lot. Do you jack the front up using the oil pan as support? > 1991 Honda Accord EXR 4 dr > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > Any other comments, insight, suggestions much appreciated. (piggy backing) Did any of these monkeys verify that the PCV valve is functioning correctly and that you do not have excessive pressure in the crankcase. With a car at this age you could have wicked bad blow-by that could be popping seals all over. Did it burn oil before it started blowing it out the seals? Did you ever run it low/out of oil, like when it had a hole in the pan? Have somebody you trust do a leak-down test on the cylinders. Assuming the leak-down test is OK, I would next be curious how you came to have a leak in the oil pan originally. Did whatever damaged the pan also damage the sealing surface on the block? Have they shown you the failed gaskets? Presumably they are all failing at the same place/in the same way. The idea that a trickle of oil running down the outside of the pan gasket would cause it to fail is absurd. That, along with the $800 quote on the fuel leak would make me want to run away from those guys. >> 1991 Honda Accord EXR 4 dr >> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >> >> Any other comments, insight, suggestions much appreciated. > Me thinks you bottom out the car and the oil pan hit the > road/speed bump a lot. I live way off the beaten path and my poor civic has to put up with a lot of oil pan dragging through the mud and gravel. Its nice and shiny on the bottom! But no leaks from the oil pan gasket! -Pete |
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