>> What for? Are you after good handling while going sideways through
>> corners on bumpy roads?
>
>In Providence, Rhode Island, it's the interstates at 70mph ...
Unless you're cornering hard at that speed, unsprung weight won't
count for much.
>> Unsprung weight is important if you're racing on bumpy tracks or
>> rallying in the boondocks. Otherwise chasing after every last
>> pound is hardly worth it.
>
>Is that why Honda did backflips to reduce rotational mass everywhere
>it could in the S2000?
Sure, but they can actually make really significant reductions. Not
just a pound or so, but real weight reduction that only a factory can
manage by careful design.
>I've read elsewhere that reductions in rotational mass play out as
>more "apparent" horsepower. I don't pretend to know myself, that's
>why I ask here, politely.
Yes, that's true, but again, you're not going to notice a pound less.
>> Anyhow, if minimum unsprung weight is a real necessity, go find
>> some magnesium wheels and never mind the tires.
>
>I understand that you should be ready to clean and polish them every
>day, too.
Yes, real mag wheels are a race track thing. They can't stand up to
road salt at all for instance.
>I'd ask you again to FOCUS ON THE QUESTION: Diminishing returns in
>unsprung weight, rotational mass, ride and handling.
You're way out on the tapering end of that diminishing return.
>The question is one of where and when additional investments in one
>area don't generate payoffs that would be more easily attained
>elsewhere.
That's precisely where you're at.
Charles Lasitter - 13 Apr 2005 01:09 GMT
>>Is that why Honda did backflips to reduce rotational mass
>>everywhere it could in the S2000?
> Sure, but they can actually make really significant reductions.
> Not just a pound or so, but real weight reduction that only a
> factory can manage by careful design.
I think that seven pounds per corner tire+wheel is REAL weight
reduction. Nine pounds would be even more real. My only real
question is whether that last two pounds might be better invested in
+1 wheels and more rubber on the road.
>>I've read elsewhere that reductions in rotational mass play out as
>>more "apparent" horsepower. I don't pretend to know myself,
>>that's why I ask here, politely.
> Yes, that's true, but again, you're not going to notice a pound
> less.
Not noticing a an additional pound at the margin tells me something.
Not noticing an extra two pounds at the margin tells me something.
>>> Anyhow, if minimum unsprung weight is a real necessity, go find
>>> some magnesium wheels and never mind the tires.
I've observed up to five pounds difference in tires of the same size
spec. I don't think that's nothing. I think I might notice.
>>I'd ask you again to FOCUS ON THE QUESTION: Diminishing returns in
>>unsprung weight, rotational mass, ride and handling.
> You're way out on the tapering end of that diminishing return.
Thank you. This is what I suspected, and needed to know.
>>The question is one of where and when additional investments in one
>>area don't generate payoffs that would be more easily attained
>>elsewhere.
> That's precisely where you're at.
Again, thank you very much for your input.

Signature
-- CL.
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| Charles Lasitter | Mailing / Shipping |
| 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St |
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halo2 guy - 13 Apr 2005 01:22 GMT
I am curios as to how YOU are going to notice any difference of even 7 lbs
per wheel in a god damned stock Honda Accord with a 4 cyl motor.
If you were geuinely concerned about performance then you wouldn't have
bought a family sedan. Go go a real sports car if that is what your
interested in.
>>>Is that why Honda did backflips to reduce rotational mass
>>>everywhere it could in the S2000?
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> | cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 |
> +-----------------------------------------+
Steve Bigelow - 13 Apr 2005 01:39 GMT
>I am curios as to how YOU are going to notice any difference of even 7 lbs
>per wheel in a god damned stock Honda Accord with a 4 cyl motor.
>
> If you were geuinely concerned about performance then you wouldn't have
> bought a family sedan. Go go a real sports car if that is what your
> interested in.
Please explain how the number of cylinders matter.
Charles Lasitter - 13 Apr 2005 05:27 GMT
"Steve Bigelow" <stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote in news:lr-
dnZHOLIA898HfRVn-tQ@rogers.com:
> Please explain how the number of cylinders matter.
It's really about torque. Other things being equal, more cylinders
and more displacement = more torque.
http://tinyurl.com/4mzwo
"As an added benefit, putting lighter wheels on the car can increase
your engine's apparent power. Why? Well the engine has to turn the
gearbox and driveshafts, and at the end of that, the wheels and
tyres.
"Heavier wheels and tyres require more torque to get turning, which
saps engine power. Lighter wheels and tyres allow more of the
engine's torque to go into getting you going than spinning the
wheels. That's why sports cars have carbon fibre driveshafts and
ultra light alloy wheels."
I make no pretense of being any kind of expert, but I've recently
read a lot of information from people that consider themselves to be
experts, and I'm just looking for feedback from this group as to how
things might apply that I've read elsewhere.
-- CL.
+-----------------------------------------+
| Charles Lasitter | Mailing / Shipping |
| 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St |
| cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 |
+-----------------------------------------+
SoCalMike - 13 Apr 2005 06:33 GMT
> I make no pretense of being any kind of expert, but I've recently
> read a lot of information from people that consider themselves to be
> experts, and I'm just looking for feedback from this group as to how
> things might apply that I've read elsewhere.
eh, youre doing good. i dont think many of us have really thought about
the weight of tire/wheel combos too much, pertaining to how much extra
power is given and the effects on speedometer readings, etc. you must
work in a technical field, right?
people with civics know if they want a light factory wheel/tire setup,
to get the wheels off an HX. theres no similar "economy" accord, unless
you count the hybrid... does that use the same wheels/tires?
Charles Lasitter - 13 Apr 2005 15:10 GMT
> people with civics know if they want a light factory wheel/tire
> setup, to get the wheels off an HX. theres no similar "economy"
> accord, unless you count the hybrid... does that use the same
> wheels/tires?
What I have found on the Tire Rack is 15x6.5" alloys that weigh in at
only 15 pounds for around $75, versus the current steel wheels. This
seems like a good idea if I do nothing else. And the Kumho tires have
also gotten favorable mention here in terms of being a good "bang for
the buck".
Thanks.
-- CL.
+-----------------------------------------+
| Charles Lasitter | Mailing / Shipping |
| 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St |
| cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 |
+-----------------------------------------+
Steve Bigelow - 13 Apr 2005 11:03 GMT
> "Steve Bigelow" <stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote in news:lr-
> dnZHOLIA898HfRVn-tQ@rogers.com:
>
>> Please explain how the number of cylinders matter.
>
> It's really about torque.
Yup.
I just wanted to see if halo had anymore clever responses.
Charles Lasitter - 13 Apr 2005 05:17 GMT
> I am curios as to how YOU are going to notice any difference of
> even 7 lbs per wheel in a god damned stock Honda Accord with a 4
> cyl motor.
This rotational mass / moment of inertial is not something I dreamed
up. It's a performance issue of which Honda itself is keenly aware:
http://tinyurl.com/4vjgp
"... Honda engineers wanted to keep the S2000 powertrain's entire
rotational mass to a minimum, thereby minimizing inertia, and the
response time between driver input and vehicle reaction."
http://tinyurl.com/4mzwo
"As an added benefit, putting lighter wheels on the car can increase
your engine's apparent power. Why? Well the engine has to turn the
gearbox and driveshafts, and at the end of that, the wheels and tyres.
Heavier wheels and tyres require more torque to get turning, which saps
engine power. Lighter wheels and tyres allow more of the engine's
torque to go into getting you going than spinning the wheels. That's
why sports cars have carbon fibre driveshafts and ultra light alloy
wheels.
> If you were geuinely concerned about performance then you wouldn't
> have bought a family sedan.
I'm very pleased with my purchase. It's a fine car that can
comfortably seat adults, offering a sportier ride than a Toyota Camry,
and I plan to enhance the vehicle's strong points and enjoy owning it
for a very long time.
> Go go a real sports car if that is what your interested in.
And so you are ... Honda's good will ambassador to first time Honda
buyers?
I put a lot of time and effort into composing questions as thoughtfully
as possible, and then posting them in forums where they are most
relevant, and the worst part of process is not the well intentioned
mis-information that is all to common on the internet.
It's jerks like you, who show their a.s while offering nothing of
value, not even a meaningful critique of the questions posed that helps
bring relevant issues more clearly into focus.
-- CL.
+-----------------------------------------+
| Charles Lasitter | Mailing / Shipping |
| 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St |
| cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 |
+-----------------------------------------+