Car Forum / Honda Cars / June 2006
creaking suspension
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merlotbrougham@hotmail.com - 03 May 2005 18:12 GMT '92 Civic
Take a guess- cornering and under accel/decel the front right wheel area creaks like a big old door. Worn bushings, bend arm, cost, anyone?
Thomas Hern - 03 May 2005 22:28 GMT > '92 Civic > > Take a guess- cornering and under accel/decel the front right wheel > area creaks like a big old door. Worn bushings, bend arm, cost, anyone? Check the struts. Happened to me once.
TeGGeR® - 04 May 2005 02:14 GMT > '92 Civic > > Take a guess- cornering and under accel/decel the front right wheel > area creaks like a big old door. Worn bushings, bend arm, cost, anyone? Most likely the springs moving in their seats, which are rusty. Take the car for a long drive (an hour or more) down bumpy roads, which will wear off the rust. If the noise does NOT disappear after that, then you've got possible shock absorber problems.
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The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
merlotbrougham@hotmail.com - 04 May 2005 17:28 GMT Thanks repliers. Bringing it in this weekend.
TeGGeR, you gonna post your rides page to the group?
> > '92 Civic > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ > www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ jboogie - 04 May 2005 19:19 GMT I think this problem might be the ball joints
HondaMan22 - 30 May 2006 18:23 GMT I'm reading this board today to get some insight into this same problem.
My 1998 Honda Accord 180,000 m. 4 cyl. SE started to creak when it bounced up over a slow speed washboard or in and out of my drive, etc.
It was a very pronounced squeak similar to a wet thumb rubbing on a ballon for example. When I took it to Honda dealership, they "spent quite a bit of time diagnosing it" and came to the conclusion that it was the struts and wanted $700 to do both sides. This morning I was to get it done but called it off. I discovered the problem over the weekend and it wasn't the struts at all! I was cleaning up the engine compartment and supported myself while leaning over into the space with one hand on the radiator. The radiator floats but the hole is sloppy. There is a bolted on support that holds the grommet. That's were the squeaking was coming from. I had cleaned this rubber and applied a perservative many times. To test the idea, I put a cardboard sleeve I fashioned into the space. Driving around the neighborhood revealed Squeak was gone.
today I took the car back out there, explained to the dealer I did not want their $700 struts.
Grumpy AuContraire - 31 May 2006 02:28 GMT > I'm reading this board today to get some insight into this same problem. > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > today I took the car back out there, explained to the dealer I did not want > their $700 struts. Good move on your part. Dealerships use service as their main profit center.
Sometimes a suspension squeak can be worn bushings and squirting some conventional brake fluid on 'em can get you some extra mileage before replacement.
JT
Dave Garrett - 31 May 2006 05:05 GMT
> > I'm reading this board today to get some insight into this same problem. > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Sometimes a suspension squeak can be worn bushings and squirting some > conventional brake fluid on 'em can get you some extra mileage before replacement. Something I've been wondering: how long can bushings and struts reasonably be expected to last before requiring replacement? I replaced the front struts on my '90 CRX about 7 years ago, but the rears and the bushings are original. The car has almost 125K miles on it, and recently the handling has felt noticeably "looser", for lack of a better word, particularly at higher speeds - not nearly as confidence-inspiring and "on rails" as it used to be. Had an independent shop examine the front suspension, rotate the tires, and perform an alignment, but they said they didn't notice anything else amiss.
I don't have a whole lot of confidence in the diagnostic abilities of the shop in question - I don't normally use them for much more than tire rotation/flat repair, but for various reasons they're the one I wound up at this time. What else should I be looking at? Are bushings and/or struts the likely culprits when it comes to degraded handling on an older car?
Dave
Elle - 31 May 2006 05:18 GMT > Something I've been wondering: how long can bushings and > struts [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > handling on an > older car? I have a 91 Civic LX, 177k miles. I replaced, for the first time ever, the front suspension coil springs a few weeks ago. I checked the dampers and believe they are fine. Since your struts ( = coil spring and damper assemblies) are only seven years old, it's hard for me to believe they are amiss, especially if they were examined recently.
OTOH, cracked control arm bushings are very common with older Hondas. You should be able to take the wheels off and see these up close yourself. A dealership would surely comment on cracked bushings if they were present. An independent shop might not.
My Civic's front lower control arm bushings (the originals) were badly cracked. In addition, upon disassembling the stabilizer bar (an easy job), I found one of the two front stabilizer bolts and its associated four "rubbers" badly corroded.
In the last month, I have replaced all the front lower control arm bushings and both front stabilizer bolts and their eight "rubbers." I think handling is much better.
If your car has been driven in a corrosive climate (up North or near the ocean), I would strongly consider replacing the control arm bushings, for starters. This job is so labor intensive that you should consider simply purchasing new control arms (bushings are included).
Dave Garrett - 01 Jun 2006 02:14 GMT > > Something I've been wondering: how long can bushings and > > struts [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > comment on cracked bushings if they were present. An > independent shop might not. Well, I've had most of the other "older Honda" problems in the past, so I wouldn't be too surprised if the bushings are worn or cracked. Still burns me up to recall how much I spent at one particular shop trying to get the car to run properly before I found out about the notorious main relay failure mode, something that shop was either unfamiliar with or conveniently neglected to mention until after they'd done a bunch of other work on the car.
> My Civic's front lower control arm bushings (the originals) > were badly cracked. In addition, upon disassembling the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > intensive that you should consider simply purchasing new > control arms (bushings are included). The car's spent its entire life in Texas - not really a corrosive climate, but one with very high temperatures and humidity during 4-5 months of the year. And I don't think I'm up for tackling that particular replacement myself, especially after reading your recent posts about it. :-)
I'm also wondering if tie rods could be part of the problem, as I mentioned in my other post. The front stabilizer bolts/rubbers also sound like they could be likely suspects as well.
Dave
Elle - 01 Jun 2006 05:32 GMT > Well, I've had most of the other "older Honda" problems in > the past, so [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > a bunch of > other work on the car. It's funny how many import shops and dealerships do not know about the main relay.
>> If your car has been driven in a corrosive climate (up >> North [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > your recent > posts about it. :-) For a Honda driven only in Texas, and based on my reading here and elsewhere, I think it's quite possible that the bolts holding the control arms will not be seized. Then it's a matter of removing the control arms (really just a few bolts), taking the arms to, say, Napa Auto Parts, and having them replace the bushings. You could even buy the OEM bushings online.
At least, my local Napa has a bushing press service with a one-day turnaround.
Or, as I imply, just buy a new control arm. They're not all that expensive.
> I'm also wondering if tie rods could be part of the > problem, as I > mentioned in my other post. The front stabilizer > bolts/rubbers also > sound like they could be likely suspects as well. I am following the discussion on the tie rods. I haven't done anything to my tie rods. Maybe after I finish all my bushing replacement work, I'll see what maintenance I maybe should do on the tie rods, then have an alignment done.
I have also found some fascinating discussion on DIY replacement of the much bigger trailing arm bushings. On my car, these huge bushings look far worse in condition than any of the smaller control arm bushings.
Good luck. Updates are always welcome.
merlotbrougham@hotmail.com - 01 Jun 2006 18:30 GMT > Good luck. Updates are always welcome. Speaking of updates, did you use OE stuff on your '91? Anything seized enough to call for BIGHAMMER?
Elle - 01 Jun 2006 20:29 GMT >> Good luck. Updates are always welcome. > > Speaking of updates, did you use OE stuff on your '91? Yes, all the new bushings and the stabilizer parts are OEM.
For the front control arm bushings, I went through my local import car shop, which coincidentally had the best prices anywhere. The shop explained that they get these bushings direct from the factory that makes them. The part numbers on the packaging indicated the bushings were OEM.
Unfortunately the local import shop does not also sell the rear control arm bushings. So yesterday I ordered one set for one rear control arm from cheapesthondaparts.com.
> Anything seized > enough to call for BIGHAMMER? Yes: All four of the front lower control arm bushing outer sleeves were exhausting to remove. My arm tendons are wiped out but recovering. Maybe a guy wouldn't have it so tough, though plenty of reports on Usenet say guys too are wiped out by the effort.
See my update at
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.honda/browse_frm/thread/4f4af16c bf1e1fe6/0566454239dc492b?lnk=st&q=bushing+insubject%3Aupdate+author%3Aelle&rnum =3#0566454239dc492b
For the rear control arm bushings, I have been researching huge Pitman Arm pullers, as well as re-designing a "bolt puller" from Harbor Freight I bought for $11. This includes evaluating the pullers Snap-On uses and rates from a couple of tons up to 20 tons or so.
A tool with a 3/4-inch pressure bolt (fine thread, Grade 8) should easily press the new bushings in (requiring about 8 tons of force, worst case for those in the rust belt), by my calculations. If I push the tool to its limits (admittedly risking breakage), I might be able to use it to press the old outer sleeves out, as well. I think 12 to 20 tons of force may be necessary for very rusted outer bushing sleeves.
I have one seized bolt (of six) on the two rear control arms so far. Based on past work on these arms, I don't expect more. With my trusty air die grinder and a 1/32-inch, 4-inch diameter cutoff wheel, I will cut out the one bolt. I am aiming to have it done within four hours, conservatively. Which will trump the two days I took a few years ago for another control arm bolt using... you don't want to know. Those inner sleeves weld to the bolt in many cases.
From what JT said and more reading, I think reports on the net are a bit "all over the map" (figuratively and literally) for bushing removal. That is, many report the sockets-bolt-nut-washer method reliably works; others say they pounded like mad with a huge hammer. Some have said a two-ton press won't work. Some report a 12-ton press is sufficient. I think the variation is indeed due to differences in geographic location and perhaps how many years have elapsed since changing out the bushings.
For the DIY-er, I think it prudent to change the bushings like every six years/100k miles at this point, whichever comes first.
I do think my Civic handles better. It's got that "corners almost like it's on rails" feel again.
I am contemplating doing the trailing arm bushings within a year. It's a question of whether I want to lay out $170 or so for a supah-dupah heavy duty Pitman arm puller-like tool precisely fit to the trailing arm bushings. The following are the two best reports I've seen on it:
http://marketwareinc.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=3442
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3828/is_200510/ai_n15740759/pg_2 (Motor magazine, October 2005 article by one Dan Marinucci)
The article above also has the OEM part number for the trailing arm bushings: 52385-SR3000 . Cheapesthondaparts.com has them. Ebay sells some Energy Suspension yada versions of the Trailing Arm bushings for quite a bit less, too. I may go prothane yada for them.
Grumpy AuContraire - 31 May 2006 17:19 GMT > > > I'm reading this board today to get some insight into this same problem. > > > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > suspension, rotate the tires, and perform an alignment, but they said > they didn't notice anything else amiss. Off the cuff, I'd guess that your handling issue may be struts. Bushings when they go bad exhibit audible signs.
> I don't have a whole lot of confidence in the diagnostic abilities of > the shop in question - I don't normally use them for much more than tire > rotation/flat repair, but for various reasons they're the one I wound up > at this time. What else should I be looking at? Are bushings and/or > struts the likely culprits when it comes to degraded handling on an > older car? If the struts are going, the car will bounce more. Press down hard on the fenders on each corner of the car and see how long it takes the car to stop moving after you release.
If it bounces more than once after release, the struts are going or gone..
JT
Dave Garrett - 01 Jun 2006 02:04 GMT > > > > I'm reading this board today to get some insight into this same problem. > > > > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > If it bounces more than once after release, the struts are going or gone.. I forgot to mention that I've tried the "bounce test" on all four corners several times. None of them bounced more than once.
I'm also suspecting tie rods, as the problem is most noticeable during even slight directional changes - there's a brief hesitation between the time I turn the steering wheel and the car actually starts to react to the input. The handling "looseness" I mentioned can best be demonstrated by several quick left-to-right transitions with the steering wheel while the car is in motion. The faster the car is going, the "looser" it feels when doing this.
Dave
Grumpy AuContraire - 01 Jun 2006 13:56 GMT snip
> I'm also suspecting tie rods, as the problem is most noticeable during > even slight directional changes - there's a brief hesitation between the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Dave Could also be dry ball joints. If so, they should be attended to promptly as would apply to loose tie rods. Seeing your reply to Elle that you are in Texas (as am I), corrosion is a minor concerned unless you're up by Amarillo or down in Houston...
JT
Dave Garrett - 02 Jun 2006 02:40 GMT > snip > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > JT The latter, actually. I do have some corrosion on the sunroof as well as the passenger-side A-pillar, so it's certainly possible there's more where I can't easily see it. I'm going to have my preferred independent shop get it up on the rack and have them check everything that's been suggested, but unfortunately they're closed due to vacation this week. Which turned out to be very bad timing for me when the starter in my wife's Accord died on Tuesday. So we had to have it towed to the dealer instead, and $450 later she was on the road again - if it had happened five months ago, it would've been covered by Hondacare.
Dave
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