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Car Forum / Honda Cars / July 200594 Accord AT going bad?
I wonder if any of you, '94 Accord owners have had the Automatic Transmission going bad and what the symptoms were. I suspect mine is showing the symptoms but I'm not sure. I hear noticeable whining coming from under the hood and some additional grounding sound during initial acceleration, especially when I momentarily lift my foot off the gas pedal and the car is in "engine brake" condition. The automatic shifting betwen the gears is also not as smooth as it used to be, especially in the lower gears. Do these symptoms sound familiar? The car has been running without any serious trouble in the first 200 K miles and I had it serviced at every 7,500 miles, with oil changes in between. It's now past that by about 4 K miles. If it turns out to be indeed AT problem, I wonder what kind of bill would I be looking for at an authorized Honda service shop. Do they normally repair the tranny or they just want to install a new one? I'm afraid a new one would cost me more than the car is worth. Thanks, Rudy > I wonder if any of you, '94 Accord owners have had the Automatic > Transmission going bad and what the symptoms were. I suspect mine is [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Thanks, > Rudy ------------------- It sounds like somebody has put non-Honda tranny fluid in it. Get it drained and refilled at least twice, ASAP. Use only Honda Z1, and nothing else. The 'grounding' noise sounds like a motor mount might be shot. 'Curly' >> I wonder if any of you, '94 Accord owners have had the Automatic >> Transmission going bad and what the symptoms were. I suspect mine is [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > 'Curly' concur with curly. check the motor mounts and change the fluid a couple of times - a couple of weeks apart. regarding whining, be sure it's not the timing belt. >> It sounds like somebody has put non-Honda tranny fluid in it. Get it >> drained and refilled at least twice, ASAP. Use only Honda Z1, and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > regarding whining, be sure it's not the timing belt. OK, but I still wonder if any of the symptoms I described can also be caused by too much ATF. What would be the symptoms from that? Rudy >>> It sounds like somebody has put non-Honda tranny fluid in it. Get it >>> drained and refilled at least twice, ASAP. Use only Honda Z1, and [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Rudy too much atf would mean all kinds of wierdness on the shift and fluid leakage - assuming you didn't blow any control valves. when you say there's too much, are you measuring with the motor running? on a honda, the motor is supposed to be *off*, unlike almost every other automatic out there... if there is too much, it's easy to fix - just drain & refill with the correct amount of honda atf. sounds like you need to do that anyway. regarding growling, it could be a bearing. but check the motor mounts first. put it in park, with the brake off, then rock the car back & forth & see how the mounts behave. > too much atf would mean all kinds of wierdness on the shift and fluid > leakage - assuming you didn't blow any control valves. > > when you say there's too much, are you measuring with the motor > running? on a honda, the motor is supposed to be *off*, unlike almost > every other automatic out there... I measured it with the engine off but still warm. That's how the Owner's Guide specifies it. > if there is too much, it's easy to fix - just drain & refill with the > correct amount of honda atf. sounds like you need to do that anyway. It sure looks like I need it. > regarding growling, it could be a bearing. but check the motor mounts > first. put it in park, with the brake off, then rock the car back & > forth & see how the mounts behave. It's not that kind of growling. It's more like something related to belts and only when I am accelerating or slowing down with engine brake. Once I am at a steady speed on a straight stretch of road I cannot hear it. Gear shifting is also rougher than usual. Rudy >> too much atf would mean all kinds of wierdness on the shift and fluid >> leakage - assuming you didn't blow any control valves. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I measured it with the engine off but still warm. That's how the Owner's > Guide specifies it. good! not everyone does that... >> if there is too much, it's easy to fix - just drain & refill with the >> correct amount of honda atf. sounds like you need to do that anyway. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Rudy how many miles since last timing belt change? are you losing coolant? may be a water pump [or alternator] bearing. > how many miles since last timing belt change? are you losing coolant? > may be a water pump [or alternator] bearing. I doubt it as I had the timing belt and water pump replaced 25,000 miles ago. Actually, my last service was a small scheduled maint. service, like the one performed at 22,500 miles and it was performed at a Honda service shop. The previous more major scheduled maintenance visit and later an oil change-only visit was at that independent shop I mentioned. Those are the guys I suspect screwing up my previously well running car because they installed a remanufactured Delco distributor in place of the leaking original one and they also probably used a non-Honda ATF. After that I immediately noticed that faint whine from under the hood that seemed to vary with the RPM but I did not pay much attention to it then. I was more concerned by the low torque at idle speed, causing me several stalls during starts while the engine was warm. The AT related issues however bacame more noticeable in the last couple weeks, even though I had that last (minor) maintenance service performed at a Honda dealer since then. I was just checking the work sheet of that service and it does show a check mark at the item, titled "Check all fluid levels, condition of fluids and check for leaks, if needed add transmission fluid, engine coolant,brake fluid, power steering fluid and windshield washer fluid." So now I wonder if the Honda mechanic just blindly added more ATF and overfilling it, or he just left in the original fluid from the independent shop. I am due for another oil change in about 1,000 miles, which for me means about three weeks, but I might give them a call about this and see if they feel some responsibility for the ATF overfill. Rudy >> how many miles since last timing belt change? are you losing coolant? >> may be a water pump [or alternator] bearing. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > concerned by the low torque at idle speed, causing me several stalls > during starts while the engine was warm. ok, if it varies with rpm, not speed, and you have low torque, get that belt checked quick! it's probably skipped a tooth because it's too loose. and if you can, try to find out exactly what brand of water pump they used last time - if they changed it at all. there are some nasty cheapo aftermarket ones out there whose seals and bearings are grossly inferior. > The AT related issues however bacame more noticeable in the last couple > weeks, even though I had that last (minor) maintenance service performed [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > transmission fluid, engine coolant,brake fluid, power steering fluid and > windshield washer fluid." the worksheet description is just word padding to justify the cost. > So now I wonder if the Honda mechanic just > blindly added more ATF and overfilling it, or he just left in the > original fluid from the independent shop. sure, if he checked it at all - which is more likely. > I am due for another oil > change in about 1,000 miles, which for me means about three weeks, but I > might give them a call about this and see if they feel some > responsibility for the ATF overfill. sometimes it's best to vote with your feet and research alternatives that know what they're doing. > Rudy > ok, if it varies with rpm, not speed, and you have low torque, get > that belt checked quick! it's probably skipped a tooth because it's > too loose. and if you can, try to find out exactly what brand of > water pump they used last time - if they changed it at all. there are > some nasty cheapo aftermarket ones out there whose seals and bearings > are grossly inferior. The timing belt and water pump was replaced by a Honda dealer at 180,000 miles, so I don't think that was the problem. I went to that independent shop later, for the 195,000 ml scheduled maintenance, then for the following oil change at 198,750 miles. After that I returned to another Honda dealer's service at 202,500 miles. Now the mileage is around 204,000. > the worksheet description is just word padding to justify the cost. That's what I figured, too. > sometimes it's best to vote with your feet and research alternatives > that know what they're doing. I'm running out of options without really knowing a good shop. Sometimes a new one turns out worse than the old one. That's how it turned out for me with that independent shop. Rudy > I'm running out of options without really knowing a good shop. Sometimes > a new one turns out worse than the old one. That's how it turned out for > me with that independent shop. try www.cartalk.com and use their mechanic locator. worth a shot. > try www.cartalk.com and use their mechanic locator. worth a shot. Thanks for that tip, SoCal Mike! Looks like this time I picked the *right* Honda dealership. Rudy (formerly of Huntington Beach) >> try www.cartalk.com and use their mechanic locator. worth a shot. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Rudy > (formerly of Huntington Beach) what did they have to say bout the last mechanic, if anything? ive personally never looked at the site myself, and chances are with my luck ill forget all about it if i ever need major service done... duh! > what did they have to say bout the last mechanic, if anything? Nothing. That shop wasn't even listed. Rudy > try www.cartalk.com and use their mechanic locator. worth a shot. Well, I decided to get a second opinion on the possible reason for that howling sound coming from under the hood and visited one of the nearby independent shops specializing in Japanese cars that got really good rating from customers in www.cartalk.com. The shop has been around for a long time and I was able to talk to the hands-on owner who also test-drove the car. From that he could not really localize the source of the howling, so at his shop he got out his stetoscope and listened to the noise emitted from various components. To my relief he said he didn't think the noise was coming from the tranny but from the timing belt area. To be sure though, he suggested to leave the car there soon so he can remove the plastic cover over the timing belt and look and listen there. He also proposed a process of elimination by removing one belt at a time (not the timing belt, of course!) to see if any of those steps stops the howling. His best guess is that some worn bearing in the timing belt area makes the noise. As this second opinion is quite different than the first one that suggested the torque converter being the source, I decided to give the benefit of doubt to this second opinion as it seems to be the less costly alternative and who knows, it might fix the problem. If it doesn't, I can escalate the issue to other possible couses, such as the torque converter, just as I tried the ATF replacement first before trying the next, costlier option. In any case, this shop owner mechanic impressed me sufficiently to take my car to him in a couple days and see if his guess was right. I'll keep you posted on the outcome. Rudy > In any case, this shop owner mechanic impressed me sufficiently to > take my car to him in a couple days and see if his guess was right. > I'll keep you posted on the outcome. Well, here is the promised post: the problem is fixed. As it turned out the strange howling sound did not come from the transmission and not even from under the timing belt cover. It was coming from the AC compressor. This mechanic turned out to be what the www.cartalk.com responses indicated: the best one I ever came across. He localized the problem by removing one belt at a time to see if that caused any change in the noise and he'd found it when he removed the belt from the AC compressor. Since a new AC compressor from Honda costs a fortune, he suggested getting a used one from a junk yard from an identical car with low milage and that's what I got for a reasonable price. Luckily I also suggested to check the engine mounts while at it and sure enough, he found the rubber support in the front engine bracket broken which then he also replaced with a new one. He said the rear engine mount was OK though somewhat stretched. As that one is much more expensive, I left that one to be addressed at a future date. All in all, the engine sounds real good and quiet, as good as I ever heard it and the price was quite reasonable. I feel real lucky to have found this independent shop through cartalk.com and from one of you guys who suggested using that source. Without it I might have gone ahead with the suggestion of that Honda mechanic who diagnosed the problem as a bad torque converter. So much for authorized Honda expertise. Rudy > compressor. Since a new AC compressor from Honda costs a fortune, he > suggested getting a used one from a junk yard from an identical car with > low milage and that's what I got for a reasonable price. if the AC still works, id probably just drive as-is until the compressor fails. if it didnt work, then sure- a new compressor would be nice. or no AC? > if the AC still works, id probably just drive as-is until the > compressor fails. if it didnt work, then sure- a new compressor would > be nice. or no AC? Sure, as I seldom use the AC, anyway. It's just that howling noise that bothered me, especially when I did not know where it was coming from. Also, is it really economical to buy expensive new parts for an 11 year old car with 205 K miles in it that I don't plan to keep longer that 2 or 3 years? Rudy On 6/30/05 11:35 PM, in article 6pudndd8g4-RVVnfRVn-jA@comcast.com, "R. P." <r_pol12gar@hotmail.com> wrote: >> if the AC still works, id probably just drive as-is until the >> compressor fails. if it didnt work, then sure- a new compressor would [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Rudy Three years is the duration of the original warranty. If you plan to keep it that long, then I think new parts are justified. > Three years is the duration of the original warranty. If you plan to > keep > it that long, then I think new parts are justified. That does not mean that the parts only last 3 years though. In any case, I was willing to take the gamble because I've had some experience already with such used parts and it was all good. Rudy > It sounds like somebody has put non-Honda tranny fluid in it. Get it > drained and refilled at least twice, ASAP. Use only Honda Z1, and > nothing else. The 'grounding' noise sounds like a motor mount might be > shot. Man, you (and Jim) are good! I was just checking the AT fluid level and it was way high! It was about as for above the upper measuring hole as the lower hole is. About half inch or so. So I'm not sure how much of the symptoms I mentioned is due to the high fluid level and how much might be due to wrong AT fluid. Looks like I keep having the consequences of that one maintenance visit to an independent that has "Japanese Auto Repair" in its name and tells customers that they employ several former Honda Service Technicians. Maybe there is a reason why they no longer work for authorized Honda dealers?! But it's not what these independents will tell you. Now the question: how in the hell do I drain that AT fluid and how much fluid do I need to fill it properly? Thanks, Rudy > Man, you (and Jim) are good! I was just checking the AT fluid level and > it was way high! It was about as for above the upper measuring hole as [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Thanks, > Rudy --------------- The drain plug has a 3/8" square hole in it, so you just put a ratchet handle, or better, swing handle into the hole. When you remove the plug it will shoot straight at the inside of your front-right tire. Now you know where it is located. Here's a link to a forum for CR-v. Instructions are basically the same for you http://www.hondasuv.com/crv/viewtopic.php?t=65 You should do it twice, maybe a week apart, and the plug should be removed just seconds after shutting engine off, so you get as much of the 'floating' particles out. 'Curly' > I wonder if any of you, '94 Accord owners have had the Automatic > Transmission going bad and what the symptoms were. I suspect mine is [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Thanks, > Rudy ------------------- Read the first two parts of this post, and see how easily an automatic tranny can sound 'wrecked', but still be easy to fix . . http://www.hondasuv.com/stg/viewtopic.php?t=9406& I'm suggesting you procede with caution. It might be something simple. 'Curly' > Read the first two parts of this post, and see how easily an automatic > tranny can sound 'wrecked', but still be easy to fix . . > http://www.hondasuv.com/stg/viewtopic.php?t=9406& > > I'm suggesting you procede with caution. It might be something simple. I've read it but I don't think my case is anything like those. I hope it's all just due to too much of the wrong ATF being used but it may be a wishful thinking. Given my situation, I could not drain that sucker without having the car on a lift, so I'll need it done at a Honda dealer. I'll probably ask for a complete tranny flush before a proper refill with Honda brand ATF. Rudy > I'm suggesting you procede with caution. It might be something simple. Well, I did visit my Honda dealer and a long time mechanic took me along with a test drive. He immediately, even before we started rolling, said that it was a sound he's heard many times before and it was coming from the torque converter going bad. When I suggested that I would still prefer to try flushing the trany from the old ATF and fill it with genuine Honda ATF to see what improvement that would bring, he talked me out of it as something pretty much useless as that would still not fix the torque converter. He also thought that the ATF overfill would not cause that noise. Well, he might be right, but he also might be a bit influenced by the fact that his shop would make more money with the replaced torque converter option. It's like going to a surgeon for a diagnosis and he would naturally lean toward cutting you open, while an internist would probably try some drugs first. In any case, he said that the job can wait till my next due oil change, so I have some time to think about it. To his credit though he did suggest a remanufactured torque converter that would cost me only around $200 as opposed to a new Honda part at $850. He also said that the remanufactured TQ would start out as an OEM part and would have to have certain letters stamped on it to fit my car model. It cannot be garanteed, however, that they would have it when I need it and unfortunately those letters are not known till the mechanic actually removes the existing TQ at which point I am pretty much committed and might have to choose leaving my car there till the proper remanufactured TQ becomes available or pay for a much more expensive new OEM TQ. That's not a choice I like to face, so I think I'll still try the ATF flush method first somehow. Rudy >> I'm suggesting you procede with caution. It might be something simple. > > Well, I did visit my Honda dealer and a long time mechanic took me along > with a test drive. He immediately, even before we started rolling, said > that it was a sound he's heard many times before and it was coming from > the torque converter going bad. afaik, the commonest problem with accord torque converters, and even then it's not that common from what i can see, is a lack of lockup clutch. i've never had that problem in a honda myself, but i'd be surprised if you could hear this problem on driveaway being as the lockup clutch only engages at higher speeds and during braking. > When I suggested that I would still > prefer to try flushing the trany from the old ATF and fill it with [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Rudy > afaik, the commonest problem with accord torque converters, and even > then it's not that common from what i can see, is a lack of lockup > clutch. i've never had that problem in a honda myself, but i'd be > surprised if you could hear this problem on driveaway being as the > lockup clutch only engages at higher speeds and during braking. Well, I did drain the ATF last evening and refilled it with 2.5 qt genuine Honda ATF-Z1. A test drive after it did not show any noticeable change in that noise I reported earlier. I'll replace the ATF again next weekend though I'm not having high hopes for an improvement. Perhaps that mechanic was right after all and my car needs its torque converter replaced. At least if I was sure that they could find the right remanufactured converter for it and it would really solve the problem and not just be part of a process of elimination game till the whole transmission is replaced. Rudy >> afaik, the commonest problem with accord torque converters, and even >> then it's not that common from what i can see, is a lack of lockup [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Rudy ok. keep us posted with the result - add the data to the pool. |
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