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Car Forum / Honda Cars / September 2005Accord Diesel
I just read on a British site a test on the Accord diesel they have there. All Honda design 2.2 Liter turbocharged. Averaged over 77 miles ( not km's) on a gallon. I figure in real life driving , should be good for at least 50 mpg. They also have Civic and CRV diesels. Scott >I just read on a British site a test on the Accord diesel they have there. >All Honda design 2.2 Liter turbocharged. Averaged over 77 miles ( not >km's) on a gallon. I figure in real life driving , should be good for at >least 50 mpg. They also have Civic and CRV diesels. Scott Ah, that's probably a UK gallon Nope. on a UK gallon it got 92 mpg. I will try to get the site for you to look at. Scott >Nope. on a UK gallon it got 92 mpg. I will try to get the site for you to >look at. Scott It's rated at 5.4 L/100km, 52.3 mi/imperial gallon, 43.5 mi/US gallon. The 92 (or whatever) was from some press release from some gimicky drive. Honda is good, but not THAT good. Still really good in my book. Scott > >Nope. on a UK gallon it got 92 mpg. I will try to get the site for you to > >look at. Scott > > It's rated at 5.4 L/100km, 52.3 mi/imperial gallon, 43.5 mi/US > gallon. The 92 (or whatever) was from some press release from some > gimicky drive. Honda is good, but not THAT good. Bit will it run on Grease?  SignatureDonald Rumsfeld: "If you're asking if there's a direct link between 9/11 and Iraq, the answer is no." http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4865948/ On May 01, 2003, President Bush declared that, "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended." "I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation. " - George "Dubya" Bush actually I have been reading about the diesel and I am waiting for it to come to the US before so I can purchase. Hopefully it will be engineered to meet the new diesel emission standards >I just read on a British site a test on the Accord diesel they have there. > All Honda design 2.2 Liter turbocharged. Averaged over 77 miles ( not > km's) on a gallon. I figure in real life driving , should be good for at > least 50 mpg. They also have Civic and CRV diesels. Scott >actually I have been reading about the diesel and I am waiting for it to >come to the US before so I can purchase. Hopefully it will be engineered to >meet the new diesel emission standards Don't hold your breath waiting for diesels to come over here. I'm not too familiar with the "new diesel emission standards" but I suspect that they are prohibitively strict...otherwise, we'd already have a lot more diesel powered cars over here. Europe is awash in diesels...just about every model of every car has a diesel option. Interestingly, the diesel option is often the high performance option. Alfa Romeo has some seriously fast diesels, particularly in the torque department...really fast off the line. Our problem is the fuel. We have really dirty diesel fuel in our country. In Europe, they have cleaned up their diesel fuel considerably. The governments require that the refineries really clean the stuff up. The technology exists to really clean it up, but it's expensive. The exotic diesel engine technology over there is dependant upon this cleaned up diesel fuel. It may not be possible to adapt this technology to our dirty fuel. Then you add in these new diesel emission standards and it really makes things impossible. Bottom line, our government, our oil industry, our auto industry, and especially our fuel refining industry don't want diesel to take off over here. They don't want to make the investment in clean diesel fuel technology. And why would they ? The status quo is making them rich. Cleaner air, better performance, better gas mileage, and the consequent reduction in foreign oil dependancy all mean nothing when compared to the bottom line: profits. The industry will not clean up our fuel unless it is forced to do so. And we all know that will not happen. It's too bad. Cheers, --N >>actually I have been reading about the diesel and I am waiting for it to >>come to the US before so I can purchase. Hopefully it will be engineered to [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > And we all know that will not happen. > It's too bad. Biodiesel is becoming more popular and available in North America - I know there's at least one company producing and selling it here in the Vancouver, BC area, at lower cost than regular diesel as added incentive. From http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/faqs/default.shtm: What is Biodiesel? Biodiesel is the name of a clean burning alternative fuel, produced from domestic, renewable resources. Biodiesel contains no petroleum, but it can be blended at any level with petroleum diesel to create a biodiesel blend. It can be used in compression-ignition (diesel) engines with little or no modifications. Biodiesel is simple to use, biodegradable, nontoxic, and essentially free of sulfur and aromatics. --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0535-3, 09/02/2005 Tested on: 9/5/2005 12:47:05 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com >>> actually I have been reading about the diesel and I am waiting for it >>> to come to the US before so I can purchase. Hopefully it will be [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > little or no modifications. Biodiesel is simple to use, biodegradable, > nontoxic, and essentially free of sulfur and aromatics. dude, biodiesel is totally works, but let me ask you, what is the point of growing literally /tons/ of crop, just to harvest a few pounds of fuel? what about all the biomass that's being thrown away? it makes no sense! the /true/ eco-solution is to throw the whole lot into a digester and use the whole organic content, not just a teensy little fraction that happens to accumulate in a seed pod. > --- > avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. > Virus Database (VPS): 0535-3, 09/02/2005 > Tested on: 9/5/2005 12:47:05 AM > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. > http://www.avast.com >>>> actually I have been reading about the diesel and I am waiting for >>>> it to come to the US before so I can purchase. Hopefully it will be [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > digester and use the whole organic content, not just a teensy little > fraction that happens to accumulate in a seed pod. Well for one thing, biodiesel doesn't HAVE to come direct from any "crop". From biodiesel.org: How is biodiesel made? Biodiesel is made through a chemical process called transesterification whereby the glycerin is separated from the fat or vegetable oil. The process leaves behind two products -- methyl esters (the chemical name for biodiesel) and glycerin (a valuable byproduct usually sold to be used in soaps and other products). also: Is Biodiesel the same thing as raw vegetable oil? No! Biodiesel is produced from any fat or oil such as soybean oil, through a refinery process called transesterification. This process is a reaction of the oil with an alcohol to remove the glycerin, which is a by-product of biodiesel production. Fuel-grade biodiesel must be produced to strict industry specifications (ASTM D6751) in order to insure proper performance. Biodiesel is the only alternative fuel to have fully completed the health effects testing requirements of the 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments. Biodiesel that meets ASTM D6751 and is legally registered with the Environmental Protection Agency is a legal motor fuel for sale and distribution. Raw vegetable oil cannot meet biodiesel fuel specifications, it is not registered with the EPA, and it is not a legal motor fuel. Most importantly, from biodiesel.com: Currently biodiesel is produced mainly from field crop oils throughout Europe and used widely in a range of diesel vehicles not easily found in the U.S. The fuel produced in Hawaii by Pacific Biodiesel, Inc. is made totally from recycled cooking oil and used mostly in generators of all sizes, commercial diesel equipment, vehicles, and marine vessels. Since the opening of the Maui processing plant, it has become more economical for pump trucks to deliver used restaurant oil to Pacific Biodiesel than to landfill it, resulting in a landfill diversion total of over 40 tons of used cooking oil per month. In short: Not only are the crops it comes from VERY renewable (primarily soybean), not only are the by-products of production re-saleable, but it can also be made from recycling already-used cooking oils! --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0536-0, 09/05/2005 Tested on: 9/5/2005 10:55:53 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com >>>>> actually I have been reading about the diesel and I am waiting for >>>>> it to come to the US before so I can purchase. Hopefully it will [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. > http://www.avast.com do you think electric cars have no environmental impact too? where does fat or vegetable oil come from? mcdonalds? and neither you or the greenie spinmeisters have addressed the point about very low conversion rates for oil/fat crops vs. biomass processing. whether any individual crop is renewable is not the point. what matters is that to be valuable, you have to be able to grow sufficient tonnage to cope with fuel demands. there are not enough acres to grow enough fuel by the oil/fat crop method. there /is/ that possibility using biomass conversion. >>>>>> actually I have been reading about the diesel and I am waiting for >>>>>> it to come to the US before so I can purchase. Hopefully it will [quoted text clipped - 99 lines] > do you think electric cars have no environmental impact too? where does > fat or vegetable oil come from? mcdonalds? Why not? Think of how much raw mass there is produced by this fast-food-driven continent. > and neither you or the greenie spinmeisters have addressed the point > about very low conversion rates for oil/fat crops vs. biomass [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > acres to grow enough fuel by the oil/fat crop method. there /is/ that > possibility using biomass conversion. I know that biodiesel is being sold for less than regular diesel right now in the Vancouver area, so obviously someone has worked out the price point. --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0536-0, 09/05/2005 Tested on: 9/5/2005 10:59:38 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com >> do you think electric cars have no environmental impact too? where >> does fat or vegetable oil come from? mcdonalds? > > Why not? Think of how much raw mass there is produced by this > fast-food-driven continent. much is already being recycled into other products. >>> do you think electric cars have no environmental impact too? where >>> does fat or vegetable oil come from? mcdonalds? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > much is already being recycled into other products. *sigh* Why is it some people just HAVE to ALWAYS find SOMETHING to argue with? --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0536-1, 09/06/2005 Tested on: 9/6/2005 8:48:30 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com >>>> do you think electric cars have no environmental impact too? where >>>> does fat or vegetable oil come from? mcdonalds? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > *sigh* Why is it some people just HAVE to ALWAYS find SOMETHING to argue > with? don't take it personally, but it's because you're quoting incomplete data. we can't /all/ run vehicles on veggie oil/old mcdonalds grease because there's not enough of it and never could be. the only way to get closer is by biomass which has a much higher conversion rate. the idealistic dream of veggie powered cars is just that - a dream. it's as realistic as san francisco public transport that put the slogan "zero emissions vehicle" on the rear end of their electric busses. where do they think the electricity comes from? > --- > avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. > Virus Database (VPS): 0536-1, 09/06/2005 > Tested on: 9/6/2005 8:48:30 AM > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. > http://www.avast.com >>>>> do you think electric cars have no environmental impact too? where >>>>> does fat or vegetable oil come from? mcdonalds? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > because there's not enough of it and never could be. the only way to > get closer is by biomass which has a much higher conversion rate. I only added to a discussion on the benefits of diesel vehicles, that biodiesel is a currently-available alternative fuel. I never claimed it was an end-all, be-all replacement for fossil fuels. Yeesh. > the idealistic dream of veggie powered cars is just that - a dream. it's > as realistic as san francisco public transport that put the slogan "zero > emissions vehicle" on the rear end of their electric busses. where do > they think the electricity comes from? Depends on where you live. The vehicles ARE "zero emissions". In my part of the country, 99.9% of the electricity we use is hydro-generated... so the supply chain is "zero emissions" as well. --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0536-2, 09/07/2005 Tested on: 9/7/2005 10:39:54 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com <snip > Most importantly, from biodiesel.com: > Currently biodiesel is produced mainly from field crop oils throughout [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > soybean), not only are the by-products of production re-saleable, but it > can also be made from recycling already-used cooking oils! That'll mean eating a *lot* more french fries! Seriously, is this a possible way to use up all the corn the US is storing? > dude, biodiesel is totally works, but let me ask you, what is the point > of growing literally /tons/ of crop, just to harvest a few pounds of > fuel? the big deal seems to be waste oil from restaurants, etc. little do most people know that its already recycled by companies like darling. turned into anything from animal foods to cosmetics. >> dude, biodiesel is totally works, but let me ask you, what is the >> point of growing literally /tons/ of crop, just to harvest a few [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > people know that its already recycled by companies like darling. turned > into anything from animal foods to cosmetics. and that's cool, but there's just not sufficient tonnage to run a city, let alone a continent. >>actually I have been reading about the diesel and I am waiting for it to >>come to the US before so I can purchase. Hopefully it will be engineered to >>meet the new diesel emission standards > >Don't hold your breath waiting for diesels to come over here. .. I agree with some of your post, not all. The auto companies are already making plenty of diesels for the other markets, i.e. Europe. So, contrary to your post, they'd like to be able to leverage that capability to vehicles in the US. They are engaged with the gov'ts on ways to make it happen. >>>actually I have been reading about the diesel and I am waiting for it to >>>come to the US before so I can purchase. Hopefully it will be engineered to [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > capability to vehicles in the US. They are engaged with the gov'ts > on ways to make it happen. supposedly, theres a diesel fuel changeover in effect soon. less sulphur, just like in EU. so those cars should be able to be sold here within a couple years. even in the peoples republic of kalifornia. >supposedly, theres a diesel fuel changeover in effect soon. less >sulphur, just like in EU. so those cars should be able to be sold here >within a couple years. even in the peoples republic of kalifornia. True, but near simultaneously there will be even more stringent emissions regs. I'm not a true expert, but my understanding is that it is still up in the air as to whether diesels will be able to meet these upcoming standards even with the low-S fuel. Or maybe that's just a matter of how much added cost it will incur? >>>>actually I have been reading about the diesel and I am waiting for it to >>>>come to the US before so I can purchase. Hopefully it will be engineered to [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >sulphur, just like in EU. so those cars should be able to be sold here >within a couple years. even in the peoples republic of kalifornia. It looks to me like we have "kalifornia" to thank for that. It looks like California finally got the ball rolling, and Bush and the oil industry finally caved...well sorta... We're scheduled to get the ULSD (ultralow sulfur diesel) in 2008. This fuel will ultimately cost 2-4 cents more per gallon to produce, but there will be a considerable initial investment...to retrofit or replace the current refineries...an investment the refining companies have been quite reluctant to make. They've got a nice cash cow going here, and why spend money on new technology when people are still quite content with really old technology... I wonder why they finally caved...it's not like them.. So we're scheduled to get the stuff in '08...my bet is it will be more like 2012, after the industry has used up every stalling tactic it can think of, and of course figures out how to get the taxpayers to foot the bill... So in the meantime we get our measly selection of diesel cars, and the big semis will continue to spew filthy diesel exhaust into our environment...but at least we've made SOME progress...albeit at a glacial pace. Still, I'm looking forward to one day enjoying the modern technology Europe enjoys today. Thanks for mentioning the upcoming changes. That prompted me to look around and I found some good stuff about this underpublicized issue. This site is packed with info for those who are interested in the nuts and bolts of fuel technology: http://www.jettclan.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=printview&t=1705&start=0 Here's a small excerpt: Stinger - Aug 02, 2004 - 09:26 AM Post subject: 19Delta....not Sulfur free...just very low sulfur...Europe currently had what is called ULSD...ultralow sulfur diesel...(and California actually has it as a requirement now as well) it is allowed to have no more than 15ppm sulfur content...the road diesel currently in north america is only restricted to be no more than 200-250 ppm of sulfur....that is the reason for diesel vehicles being so dirty in NA...plus all non road diesel is only restricted to 350-400 ppm....the real problem with the sulfur is that it destroys emissions equipment....thats why European diesel vehicles are so much cleaner running than NA's (and also why we have not been provided the most technologically advanced diesel motors available...because they are designed to run on the ULSD)....and it would only cost between 2 and 4 cents a gallon more to produce the lower sulfer diesel. Bush actually did a good thing in THAT respect...he recently signed on that ALL diesel...offroad and on road would have to meet the ULSD requirements by 08 I think...previously is was only on road by 06...by making it an across the board Rq. it will simplify the refing changeover so that only 1 type of diesle will now be produced which should help lower the cost of the new rq. Unfortunatly he has not seen that biodiesel is really the current available alternative fuel that needs to be funded..instead of the fuel cell which ,at any real production levels, is at least 20 to 30 years away....ok rant off for now..back to work. I am enjoying this thread though...I hope that it is getting some reading from the larger comm because this is a real issue for the future and we really already have the tech now to help solve it...most people think that the technology to replace crude oil is far off very expensive stuff.....but with bio fuels available NOW...that is simply not the case...oh and BTW soy and canola based fuels are actually BETTER for the motor as well...they lubricate the system MUCH better than crude oil does...not to mention they smell a HECK of a lot better...a bit like a french fry machine. Cheers, --N |
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