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Car Forum / Honda Cars / November 2005ignition condenser - revisited
i wrote here a few months back about how my civic had lackluster performance, but this had been changed by replacing the condenser on the distributor. well, i'd kinda forgotten the degree of difference this change made, so when i revisited this situation again last weekend, i was surprised to confirm the same effect. long story short, after my last igniter failure, i'd been looking for a spare distributor "just in case" so i could keep it in the trunk rather than pay $300+ towing charges in the event of another breakdown. finally, i managed to find a spare oem distributor [$10!!! thank you craigslist!!!], tested it and put it on my car. it worked fine and the car fired up immediately. /but/, performance was very ho-hum. double checked the timing, no problems. put the old distributor [new condenser] back on, checked the timing, and hey presto! back to driving being a ripping good time again! this was /exactly/ the scenario i'd experienced before. the moral of the story: while i have no convenient means to measure sparking performance or h.t. voltage output from the coil so can't factually confirm by observation, a 16 year old condenser vs. a brand new one seems to show a distinct degradation in performance. the distributor with the old condenser works ok, no real problems, but there's just no "pep" to the motor. the distributor with the new condenser solves all that. in all other respects, my distributors are identical. so, if your 88-91 civic lacks a little in the "pep" department, consider condenser replacement - works for me. > i wrote here a few months back about how my civic had lackluster > performance, but this had been changed by replacing the condenser on the [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > identical. so, if your 88-91 civic lacks a little in the "pep" > department, consider condenser replacement - works for me. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++== Call around to the electronic repair services. I bet you will find one that has a Honda owner and teh equipment to measure the charactorisitics of that capacitor. Given how hot the entire assembly runs at, I wouldn't be suprised if the value shifted, the "dialectric absorbtion" shot up, or the ESR increased. Any of these will result in less effective capacitance. Terry >> i wrote here a few months back about how my civic had lackluster >> performance, but this had been changed by replacing the condenser on the [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > or the ESR increased. Any of these will result in less effective > capacitance. And less effective capacitance would result in what? A reduced spark?  SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>>i wrote here a few months back about how my civic had lackluster >>>performance, but this had been changed by replacing the condenser on the [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > And less effective capacitance would result in what? A reduced spark? yes, lower spark energy. this affects output - to a degree. >> And less effective capacitance would result in what? A reduced spark? >> > yes, lower spark energy. this affects output - to a degree. Would this condenser perform the same sort of role a Kettering condenser would? My '91 'Teg also has such a condenser. The factory manual even shows it, but is totally silent on what it's there for. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>>And less effective capacitance would result in what? A reduced spark? >> >>yes, lower spark energy. this affects output - to a degree. > > Would this condenser perform the same sort of role a Kettering condenser > would? yes, identical function. > My '91 'Teg also has such a condenser. The factory manual even shows it, > but is totally silent on what it's there for. if your car has plenty of pep to it, i wouldn't worry about it. afterall, your climate is cold enough that you're still on your original igniter, correct? heat is my suspicion for the condenser degradation on my car. "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote snip > if your car has plenty of pep to it, i wouldn't worry about it. > afterall, your climate is cold enough that you're still on your original > igniter, correct? heat is my suspicion for the condenser degradation on > my car. Tegger, hey, hope you didn't miss this query from Jim. That would knock my proverbial socks off if your 91 Integra were still on its original ignitor. Is it? > "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote > snip [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Is it? It is. Completely original distributor assembly. I'm a bit surprised myself, actually. I'm of the opinion that my very diligent maintenance has played a big role. HT voltage has always had a secure path to the plugs, so the coil and ingiter have never been subject to unspecified loads. Rotor, cap, and wires are replaced every five years. Plugs every one or two. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>>>And less effective capacitance would result in what? A reduced >>>>spark? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > yes, identical function. Are you sure? It's in the line from ignition switch to coil, which suggests to me that it's there to prevent back-voltage from getting to the ignition switch. Kettering condensers absorb primary voltage for a time to keep the coil field from collapsing until the points are far apart, to prevent flashover. Transistorized systems don't need that, do they? >> My '91 'Teg also has such a condenser. The factory manual even shows >> it, but is totally silent on what it's there for. >> > if your car has plenty of pep to it, i wouldn't worry about it. > afterall, your climate is cold enough that you're still on your > original igniter, correct? Yep. Distributor internals are 100% original except for the rotor. > heat is my suspicion for the condenser > degradation on my car. Electronics really hate heat, don't they? SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>>>>And less effective capacitance would result in what? A reduced >>>>>spark? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > to me that it's there to prevent back-voltage from getting to the ignition > switch. well, i'm deferring to terry here, but as i understand it, the condenser, correctly chosen for the inductance of the coil it serves, form the classic RC charge/decay partnership. if the decay rate is "just right", it should be enough to form those nice fat high energy sparks on the h.t. side of the coil, without them being too weak because decay is too slow or too fast giving spikey & eratic transients. i believe that to be the same as kettering. with kettering, [no condenser] causes big transients, and transients cause flashover on the points and rapid erosion. > Kettering condensers absorb primary voltage for a time to keep the coil > field from collapsing until the points are far apart, to prevent flashover. > Transistorized systems don't need that, do they? plausible, but i think you can also argue it as condensers conducting high frequencies, not d.c., hence conducting transients to earth. i'm foggy on this stuff dude - it's been a long time. i'm sure it'll help reduce load on the flyback diodes, but it doesn't appear to be essential because my crx didn't have any condenser at all [it was a reconditioned distributor]. i guess what i should try is disconnecting the condenser and seeing if that makes any difference to performance. actually, when i tested my igniter, i also rigged it to a coil and spark plug i had lying about - nice big sparks, no condenser. >>>My '91 'Teg also has such a condenser. The factory manual even shows >>>it, but is totally silent on what it's there for. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Yep. Distributor internals are 100% original except for the rotor. impressive! >>heat is my suspicion for the condenser >>degradation on my car. > > Electronics really hate heat, don't they? semiconductors definitely do. >> Kettering condensers absorb primary voltage for a time to keep the >> coil field from collapsing until the points are far apart, to prevent [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > high frequencies, not d.c., hence conducting transients to earth. i'm > foggy on this stuff dude - it's been a long time. A memory jog: http://users.mrbean.net.au/~rover/ketterin.htm SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > well, i'm deferring to terry here, but as i understand it, the > condenser, correctly chosen for the inductance of the coil it serves, > form the classic RC charge/decay partnership. oops, make that an LC partnership! > >>>>And less effective capacitance would result in what? A reduced > >>>>spark? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > field from collapsing until the points are far apart, to prevent flashover. > Transistorized systems don't need that, do they? snip +++++++++++++++++++ I checked my ancient engineering textbooks, from 1973 when solid state ignitions were just begining to become viable, and they all mention the capacitor is to prevent premature wear due to arcing of the actual points. I do know that in the early 1960s I was given an automotive ignition coil andwas disapointed to find out that you had to constantly intrupt the current to get a continious spark. My dad showed me how to wire a 12V relay as a very crude vibrator. I burned up the contacts in less then a week so we placed his capactiro substitution box across the "new" relay and tuned for minimum contact spark. The output voltage was uneffected, or the effect was so slight as to be unnoticable. I have designed and built "snubbers", a capacitor and a resistor that much be matched to reduce switch arcs under haeavy loads,. There are some very nice formulae that don't produce acceptable results. Your comment,"> Kettering condensers absorb primary voltage for a time to keep the coil > field from collapsing until the points are far apart, to prevent flashover.", could mean the capacitor keeps the filed form colasping by taking time to charge mimicking a temporary "short" across the switch. > Transistorized systems don't need that, do they?" Transistors are almost certain generate much higher transients, and transostors desinged for heavy indudctive switching have a special internal structure to enabel them to cope without being destroyed. A common solution is to place a zener diode across the collector emitter junction to limit the peak voltage spike. I am old enough that I have seen early transistor switches had a resistor capactor snubber across them. I would rate the modern, specialty transistors that are designed to switch inductive loads a 100, a hefty transitor protected by a zener a 80, and a "plain oold transistor" a 50. Now if we had 24V or 48V as our power rail, MOSFETs would be very usefull, and very robust. I designed a door latch using an early power MSOFET in ~1982. It operated from a 48V supply and it is still working. Newer MOSFETs are much better from every charactoristic. My favorite ignition system was the CDI, "Capacitor Dischage Iignition", system. I designed and built one for a marine application that was killer. It tended to eat spark plugs, but you couldn't foul the thing with 50% oil premix. If I was on a budget and my ignitor died I would be very tempted to design and build a CDI for my Civic. My main complant about CDI systems is the nasty RFI they produce. Which I why I suspect Honda and everyone else went to active "ignitors" A nice hot spark, but not too hot. Terry >>>>>>And less effective capacitance would result in what? A reduced >>>>>>spark? [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > > Terry interesting! particularly your comment on cdi. i remember when diy cdi ignition systems were all the rage in the electronics mags, but never got around to building one - because i wasn't old enough to drive. looking at my bosch automotive handbook, it also comments that cdi "generally remains impervious to electrical shunts in the high-voltage circuit, especially those stemming from spark plug contamination". it also goes on however to say that "for many applications, the spark duration of 0.1 - 0.3 ms is too brief to ensure the air-fuel mixture will ignite reliably". that accords with your fouling resistance comment and i guess explains why it's not used today in low emission engines. > interesting! particularly your comment on cdi. i remember when diy cdi [capacitor discharge ignition] > ignition systems were all the rage in the electronics mags, but never > got around to building one - because i wasn't old enough to drive. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > comment and i guess explains why it's not used today in low emission > engines. http://users.mrbean.net.au/~rover/electron.htm seems to affirm this under its answer to the question, "Why electronic ignition?" > jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote > >> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote > >> Would this condenser perform the same sort of role a Kettering > >> condenser would? No, as I think you and maybe Jim have figured out already. See below. > > yes, identical function. > > Are you sure? It's in the line from ignition switch to coil, To be exact, the radio noise capacitor which Jim replaced is in parallel with the igniter. The modern igniter took the place of both the old Kettering points and the points' condenser. The Kettering condenser was in parallel with the Kettering mechanical points. The condenser minimized sparking across the points (like you note below). That's not needed with the transistor system that the igniter provides, because with a transistor, there is no mechanical breaking of a circuit that would case arcing. (Like you also note below.) > which suggests > to me that it's there to prevent back-voltage from getting to the ignition > switch. My 1985-1995 Chilton's manual labels the capacitor Jim replaced as the "Radio Noise Condenser." Is this the same drawing as the one in your Helm? The UK site's ignition system schematics do not show it, for some reason. I put up the schematic showing the radio noise condenser at http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id5.html . I suspect its function is described in the following paragraph: "The vehicle engine is a primary source of radio static, especially on the AM band. Static suppression devices, called condensers, capacitors or radio chokes, are sometimes installed at the factory to deal with the problem." http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3707/is_199609/ai_n8757761 > Kettering condensers absorb primary voltage for a time to keep the coil > field from collapsing until the points are far apart, to prevent flashover. > Transistorized systems don't need that, do they? Right. My reading supports this. I used: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/ignition.html http://users.mrbean.net.au/~rover/ketterin.htm (which Tegger suggested) http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/igniter-operation/index.html Jim, two questions: Where'd you buy the new capacitor? Where exactly is it located? I do have Graham's little drawing which I think shows the physical shape and relative size of the thing, and I see one of the black/yellow wires from the coil connects to it, so I reckon I can track it down. Still clues are welcome. > >> My '91 'Teg also has such a condenser. The factory manual even shows > >> it, but is totally silent on what it's there for. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Yep. Distributor internals are 100% original except for the rotor. I believe you wrote at your site that you are fastidious about maintaining the high tension side of the distributor system (that is, plugs and wires). Is there anything else you do, like, I dunno, take apart the whole distributor periodically and clean all the electrical contacts? <snip discussion of purpose of said capacitor with which I agree> > I put up the schematic showing the radio noise condenser at > http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id5.html . [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > deal with the problem." > http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3707/is_199609/ai_n8757761 In the above quoted para - please note that 'radio chokes' are not capacitors but rather inductors used to raise the impedance of the line at radio frequencies to stop the interference getting out. >> Kettering condensers absorb primary voltage for a time to keep the >> coil field from collapsing until the points are far apart, to [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I see one of the black/yellow wires from the coil connects to it, so > I reckon I can track it down. Still clues are welcome. I have 'cleaned up' the drawing somewhat - would you like a new copy? It is labelled as a 'Suppresser' there. >>>> My '91 'Teg also has such a condenser. The factory manual even >>>> shows it, but is totally silent on what it's there for. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > apart the whole distributor periodically and clean all the electrical > contacts? Also to note that cleaning the insulating parts on the HV side will improve the quality of the spark, too. My troubles arose from a dirty film forming on the inside of the distributor cap and attracting condensation which leaked away the spark energy to such an extent that the engine would cough but not actually start! SignatureGraham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro-society.freeserve.co.uk/ Wessex Dorset UK Astro Society's Web pages, Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter. >> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote >> >> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > To be exact, the radio noise capacitor which Jim replaced is in > parallel with the igniter. So it's a radio noise condensor, not a Kettering condenser. That makes sense for its location. In a Kettering system, if the radio suppressor was installed on the other side of the coil, you'd suffer accelerated points burning. <snip> >> Yep. Distributor internals are 100% original except for the rotor. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > apart the whole distributor periodically and clean all the electrical > contacts? Nope. Nothing at all. But...I do replace the cap gasket every time the cap is off, just in case the old one might allow moisture to enter once its original seal is brken. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote > >> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > So it's a radio noise condensor, not a Kettering condenser. Yes. My wording above (re being in parallel) is misleading, as you probably figured out. I won't try to clear it up, since it's not entirely wrong, but instead will just say that to which side of the coil the condenser connects is the telling point, as you also seem to have picked up on. > That makes sense for its location. In a Kettering system, if the radio > suppressor was installed on the other side of the coil, you'd suffer > accelerated points burning. I agree that (1) certainly the Kettering points wouldn't be protected in the same way; and (2) the key identifier of what purpose the condenser serves here is to what side (+ or -) of the coil the capacitor attaches. I did find that this radio noise condenser is used only on 1991 and earlier ignition systems. The UK site drawings support this. Also, my 1985-1995 Civic Chilton's explicitly states that starting in 1992 the radio noise condenser was "built into" the igniter. The 1995+ Civic ignition system schematics at the UK site indicate this around the igniter icon as well. This, along with some more commentary I found, leads me to believe that this "radio noise condenser" minimizes radio frequency noise that may disrupt not only the car radio's operation, but also as importantly the igniter's transistors /and/ the car's ECU. The ECU as your site and others show of course is part of what causes the igniter's transistors to "fire" and so has input to the igniter. I see Kevin McMurtrie on May 30th said as much, re the flyback voltage to the ignitor being a concern, in his comments about your site. I have been accessing your ignitor site a lot, by the way. I am not finding anything deficient in it, other than maybe some mention of this radio noise condenser is due. 'Cause I think Jim is onto something big here, at least for older Hondas. I changed my new ignition system/radio noise condenser site a bit to reflect the above information. http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id5.html :-) I am still puzzled as to why the 1991 CRX distributor Jim put into his 1989 Civic has no condenser (so he says); yet the Civic then worked perfectly. I would guess whatever distributor he popped into the Civic that worked so well has an ignitor with an internal condenser, and so the igniter is from 1992 or later. Or maybe some of these igniter's with internal radio noise condensers got into the 1991's. I'm seeing on the net that any ol' Autozone should have these capacitors. > >> Yep. Distributor internals are 100% original except for the rotor. > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > is off, just in case the old one might allow moisture to enter once its > original seal is brken. Huh. I am not inclined to buy the low temperature climate argument Jim proposes (though he could be right and this certainly at least may help). Mostly because I lived up that way and wasn't spared igniter problems. (But maybe my 91 Civic's first igniter failure in 1997 was due to the defect that was recalled? Regardless, I sure as heck wasn't using OEM then the way I am today, and may very well have overlooked timely spark plug and wire maintenance as well.) I would reckon it's your having been very careful with the plugs and wires. Spooky, to me (but I mean that in a nice way). You never touched your 91 Teg's PCV valve until a year or so ago, and it was still extraordinarily clean, too. It seems you take amazing care of your wheels! <snip. > I have been accessing your ignitor site a lot, by the way. I am not > finding anything deficient in it, other than maybe some mention of > this radio noise condenser is due. 'Cause I think Jim is onto > something big here, at least for older Hondas. Maybe. But I'd like to see some more info about why that part would have such an effect, when all it seems to do is keep switching noise from backing upstream, just like the same part used to on Kettering systems. > I changed my new ignition system/radio noise condenser site a bit to > reflect the above information. > http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id5.html >> > I believe you wrote at your site that you are fastidious about >> > maintaining the high tension side of the distributor system (that [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > proposes (though he could be right and this certainly at least may > help). It sort of makes sense, because heat is a known life-limiting factor for electronics. > Mostly because I lived up that way and wasn't spared igniter > problems. You also don't know for sure what kind of treatment your car had before you bought it, which is a problem with any used car. > (But maybe my 91 Civic's first igniter failure in 1997 was > due to the defect that was recalled? Possible, but I think the bad igniters were all the the '90s. If yours is a late '91, chances are good it was not in the recall. > Regardless, I sure as heck wasn't > using OEM then the way I am today, and may very well have overlooked [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 91 Teg's PCV valve until a year or so ago, and it was still > extraordinarily clean, too. Oil changes every 3K miles/2 months or less ever since the first change in 1991. > It seems you take amazing care of your wheels! I really do believe it's been simple maintenance that has resulted in the reliability and durability. Nothing special, just steady maintenance from Day 1. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > such an effect, when all it seems to do is keep switching noise from > backing upstream, just like the same part used to on Kettering systems. You are talking about a condenser different from the one in parallel with the points on a Kettering system, aren't you? So you're saying the Kettering has (1) the condenser in parallel with the points, and connected to the - side of the coil; and (2) a condenser connected to the + side of the coil? Which seems reasonable to me. There are other devices used to minimize engine noise affecting electrical systems, as I guess you know. Kettering condenser (2) would presumably electrically protect only the car radio. > I really do believe it's been simple maintenance that has resulted in the > reliability and durability. Nothing special, just steady maintenance from > Day 1. I copied your five years for rotor, caps, and wires/one or two years for plugs into my notes and will start using this interval. Though I will probably always check the resistance of the wires when I change the plugs. Also, I'm going to clean out the distributor cap with every plug change. <in response to Tegger's post> > You are talking about a condenser different from the one in parallel > with the points on a Kettering system, aren't you? So you're saying [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Kettering condenser (2) would presumably electrically protect only > the car radio. Condenser (2) is nothing to do with the Kettering ignition system. The Kettering system works perfectly well without (2). Kettering nor anyone else advocates (2) as a requirement or improvement to Kettering ignition systems in regard to ignition performance. (2) serves only to try to prevent high frequency transients from backing up the wiring and interfering with other equipment running in the vehicle - GPS, AM/FM radio, Cassette player, mobile phone, etc., etc., etc. So please stop referring to (2) as a Kettering component - it isn't and has never been so. I need to refute the reference to (2) being a part of a Kettering system for the sake of the public record. SignatureGraham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro-society.freeserve.co.uk/ Wessex Dorset UK Astro Society's Web pages, Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter. > Elle wrote: > <in response to Tegger's post> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > and has never been so. I need to refute the reference to (2) being > a part of a Kettering system for the sake of the public record. Read the context. I was asking Tegger if he was proposing that there might be a second condenser in an ignition system that uses Kettering points yada. I didn't know a better way to make a distinction. It's not easy discussing this without everyone sitting at a table and pointing to schematics as s/he talks. So play nice. Or don't. <shrug> > Read the context. I was asking Tegger if he was proposing that there might > be a second condenser in an ignition system that uses Kettering points yada. > I didn't know a better way to make a distinction. > > It's not easy discussing this without everyone sitting at a table and > pointing to schematics as s/he talks. So play nice. Or don't. <shrug> My 1968 VW bug had 2 capacitors in the ignition system. The first was the standard points capacitor, or to use a term that makes the engineer in me cringe, condenser. The second was across the primary, for RFI (radio frequency interfence) reduction. Remove the one across the coil and the AM radio was useless. My 1974 Honda CB350, dual ignition system, one for each cylinder, had a cap across each set of points and a big one across the junction of the coils from +12 to ground. And if you disconnected the center one you got sparks from both sides at "once". Slight timing differences prevented the motorcycle form running very well, a lot of back fires etc. I found this out the hard way one night in a nature preserve when the quick connect, disconnected just as quickly. Hard to find in the dark. I was rathr amazed at much difference that little cap made. As my hobby is short wave listening I have learned more then a little about how to quiten noisey electrical systems. Terry > Elle wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > The first was the standard points capacitor, or to use a term > that makes the engineer in me cringe, condenser. Ha. I was cussing once I realized Jim meant a capacitor. Then I cussed myself out, because for this application, I learned that capacitors are still commonly referred to as condensers. Academic engineering can only take a person so far. Sometimes it's not far at all. > The second > was across the primary, for RFI (radio frequency interfence) [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > As my hobby is short wave listening I have learned more then a > little about how to quiten noisey electrical systems. I took my distributor off today, mostly to clean out an accumulation of oily-grime from other, past problems underneath, but also to find this capacitor (condenser), photograph it, and put something I thought was so darn profound (especially after reading your tests, which tend to support Jim's findings) on my web site. I swear my 91 Civic hasn't an external one. Whether its igniter has a built-in one is something I will continue to research. Maybe the manuals aren't accurate when they say it was 1992 when the capacitors became "built-in" to the igniter. > I took my distributor off today, mostly to clean out an accumulation of > oily-grime from other, past problems underneath, but also to find this [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > research. Maybe the manuals aren't accurate when they say it was 1992 when > the capacitors became "built-in" to the igniter. To add to this: I finally got the old igniter apart. It is actually the second igniter used in the car, and it was originally installed by Firestone after the first igniter failed. One thing leapt out at me once I had it apart. Could anyone tell me what the part is that I have circled at the photo at site http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id8.html . The drawings at Tegger's igniter site http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/igniter-operation/index.html do not appear to have this part. So I'm thinking the part above is the "built-in radio condenser." If so, it helps support the contention that the manuals are mistaken. >>I took my distributor off today, mostly to clean out an accumulation of >>oily-grime from other, past problems underneath, but also to find this [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > "built-in radio condenser." If so, it helps support the contention that the > manuals are mistaken. while you do get color coded capacitors, it's /much/ more common for their value to be printed in numerals. last time i looked anyway. resistors otoh, color coding is their primary distinguishing feature. can't really say which is which without a clearer pic. > Elle wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > resistors otoh, color coding is their primary distinguishing feature. > can't really say which is which without a clearer pic. I'll try to get a better photo up tomorrow. I can't nail it down using the net, though it does seem that it bears a closer resemblance to the resistors I see from googling, similar to your impression. It seems large compared to everything else in the igniter. Plus it's absent from Tegger's and Graham's sites' photos as well. But I don't know. Seems like the guts of these things can vary a fair amount and still accomplish the same thing. Jim and anyone else interested in electronics: I put up a drawing of the (igniter guts) part in question at http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id8.html . Also, I did some continuity tests (doh, should have done these first thing). The part itself fails a continuity test. So there's no way it can be a resistor, right? There is continuity between (1) the top wire of the part and the igniter's terminal T4 (= tachometer input); and (2) the bottom wire of the part and the igniter's terminal T3 ( = terminal B of the ignition coil) So if it's a "built-in radio noise condenser," then it is electrically located in a different position from the external radio noise condensers on other Honda models. But I dunno... Just trying to learn more electronics. > > > To add to this: I finally got the old igniter apart. It is actually the > > > second igniter used in the car, and it was originally installed by > Firestone > > > after the first igniter failed. One thing leapt out at me once I had it > > > apart. Could anyone tell me what the part is that I have circled at the > > > photo at site http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id8.html . Shoot. Post-o. Corrections are inserted below. > There is continuity between > (1) the top wire of the part and the igniter's terminal T[1] (= tachometer > input); > and > (2) the bottom wire of the part and the igniter's terminal T[2] ( = terminal B > of the ignition coil) > Jim and anyone else interested in electronics: I put up a drawing of the > (igniter guts) part in question at > http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id8.html that drawing is /classic/ resistor. gold band = 5% tolerance. 2.2k ohm. also, i would not expect it to be between tach & coil. if it were a capacitor, i'd expect it between 2 & 3, or 3 & ground. don't forget, a lot of those grey rectangles on the circuit board are on-board capacitors. > . Also, I did some > continuity tests (doh, should have done these first thing). The part itself [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > >>>>photo at site http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id8.html . > Elle wrote: > > Jim and anyone else interested in electronics: I put up a drawing of the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > a capacitor, i'd expect it between 2 & 3, or 3 & ground. don't forget, > a lot of those grey rectangles on the circuit board are on-board capacitors. I hear you. Is there any earthly reason why it would fail a continuity test, though? The igniter from which it came was working when it was removed (pre-emptively) two years ago. I am aware that a number of the squares are capacitors, per Graham's site. "Biscuit colored" is the way I think he described their color. Also of perhaps some note: This part's leads are easily accessible with a multimeter's probes. All the other ignitor parts are under a coating of clear plastic. It's like over five times the size of any of the capacitors and resistors under the plastic. > "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote > > > Jim and anyone else interested in electronics: I put up a drawing of the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > that drawing is /classic/ resistor. gold band = 5% tolerance. 2.2k > > ohm. Doh, yours truly just measured the resistance of the part in place. I presume I am getting the resistance of the part and not some other circuit connected via these two points. Rounded to two significant digits, it reads 2.2 k ohms. Still wondering about why it fails the continuity test, though. What am I missing? >>>>Jim and anyone else interested in electronics: I put up a drawing of > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Still wondering about why it fails the continuity test, though. What am I > missing? you mean the audible continuity test on a dvm? it's usually for testing wire, so it won't work if resistance is more than a few ohms. "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote E > > Still wondering about why it fails the continuity test, though. What am I > > missing? > > you mean the audible continuity test on a dvm? Yes. > it's usually for testing > wire, so it won't work if resistance is more than a few ohms. Okay. Thank you. >> Elle wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > It seems large compared to everything else in the igniter. Plus it's > absent from Tegger's and Graham's sites' photos as well. Not exactly! It is a 2,200 Ohms 5% 0.5 Watt film resistor if you have related the band colors correctly and the third 'red' isn't orange. (I don't mean the background color you used in the graphic.) It replaces the long dark green/black rectangular printed resistor in my photo which runs from the transistor output at the top (just underneath the 'HUCO' legend) and the T1 terminal. It probably isn't faulty but you'll need to set your meter to a range which expects to be able to read 2,200 Ohms, probably the 20,000 Ohms range. The resistor only feeds the tachometer instrument with pulses from the distributor and since it is connected to the output of the igniter, it cannot be the supressor you seek. > But I don't know. Seems like the guts of these things can vary a fair > amount and still accomplish the same thing. How right you are! SignatureGraham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro-society.freeserve.co.uk/ Wessex Dorset UK Astro Society's Web pages, Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter. > Not exactly! It is a 2,200 Ohms 5% 0.5 Watt film resistor if you have > related the band colors correctly and the third 'red' isn't orange. > (I don't mean the background color you used in the graphic.) > It replaces the long dark green/black rectangular printed resistor in > my photo which runs from the transistor output at the top (just > underneath the 'HUCO' legend) and the T1 terminal. It probably isn't > faulty but you'll need to set your meter to a range which expects to be > able to read 2,200 Ohms, probably the 20,000 Ohms range. > The resistor only feeds the tachometer instrument with pulses from the > distributor and since it is connected to the output of the igniter, it > cannot be the supressor you seek. The resistor is probably there to protect the transistor in the likely event of a short. It would be dangerous to have a blown transistor at any speeds. > >> And less effective capacitance would result in what? A reduced spark? > >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ > www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ ++++++++++++++++++++++ Until Jim posted his experiences with the capacitor I wouild have bet it was only for RF noise supresion. In the Kettereing system, it's main prupose was to reduce pitting of the breaker points. And it went across the points. I don'thave a diagram with me, but I think the cap in the Honda Civic is across the +12 coming into the coil. I am going to have to do some experiments and try to understand this. Perhaps, and this is all theory, the capacitor charges between pulses and reduces the effect of the inductance in the wiring. Kind of a stretch, but it almost makes sense. Capacitors have several failure modes. The most common is a reduction the amount of capacitance. Next is ESR, Effective Series Resistance. This is like adding a resistor in series with the cap. A very common failure mode for electrolytics. And the last odd ball failure mode is Dielectric Absorbtion, AKA "Capacitor Soakage". I am unfamiliar with this being an issue with modern film caps. But cooking one for days on end could change the charactoristics of the dielectric. Loss of capacitance is the most common, and ESR is second. Either will reduce the ablilty of a cap to sotre and release energy. Rereading this I see it might be possible for "noise" from the ignition coil to get back to the ECM if the capacitor isn't there to supress it. This could result in the ECM making wrong commands. But I would expect such a gross error condition to produce back firing as well a loss of performance. When the internal tansistor switch turns off there is a heck of a back EMF induced onto the 12V power rail. I will have to look at it with a oscilloscope adn see what, if any, amplitude pulses are created. I would expect the noise to be effectivly surpessed by the lead acid battery. But who knows. Fast rise time noise is more like RF then DC and can do some very "funny" things. Terry >> >> And less effective capacitance would result in what? A reduced spark? >> >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > prupose was to reduce pitting of the breaker points. And it went across > the points. Not quite. It's installed BEFORE the ground point. As the points open and resistance increases, the condenser takes over and keeps the primary current flowing for a while so the points can open enough to prevent flashover. As the condenser gets saturated, current flow stops, at which point the field collapses and a spark is generated at the plugs. A good page for that: http://users.mrbean.net.au/~rover/ketterin.htm > I don'thave a diagram with me, but I think the cap in the > Honda Civic is across the +12 coming into the coil. It is. It's in the line from the ignition switch to the coil. > I am going to have > to do some experiments and try to understand this. That would be nice. It's mostly over my head. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ "As the condenser gets saturated, current flow stops, at which point the field collapses and a spark is generated at the plugs." Just to add: after current flow stops, it reverses, as the capacitor and coil act as a damped ocsillator, dissapating the energy from the stored charge as heat, until the points close again. >>i wrote here a few months back about how my civic had lackluster >>performance, but this had been changed by replacing the condenser on the [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Terry thanks terry! i have a capacitance function on my cheapo dvm, and it read the correct value cold. but i didn't check hot or at working voltage [obviously]. guess that'll be another project some time. |
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