'91 Integra: shifting getting hard to do...

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TeGGeR® - 15 Dec 2005 03:43 GMT

...so I finally got the clutch replaced. No I didn't do it myself. Too
cold, too snowy. No garage.

The clutch was not slipping, but it was randomly getting very hard to
change gears. Sometimes easy, sometimes hard. My tech at first guessed it
might be a sliver of spring-retainer broken off and floating around inside
somewhere, preventing the clutch from disengaging.

Well he got it apart, and it turned out that even though there *was* lots
of wear in the spring retainers, that wasn't the problem. The problem was
that after 15 years, there was no grease on the input shaft any more. No
grease means rust, so the friction disc was not sliding freely on the input
shaft when I pushed the pedal, and thus sometimes not quite disengaging.
The splines were bright orange with gritty rust.

The pressure plate side was down to the rivets, and the flywheel side had
maybe a few thou before it too hit the rivets. My tech figures I *might*
have got 5-10K more out of it, but then it would have started slipping for
sure.

It's amazing. I originally thought the synchros were worn, but the tranny
shifts (almost) slick as butter with the new clutch. Gonna have to get used
to the pedal feel. It's now so light that it throws off my timing. The new
clutch is a lot less grabby, too.

I'll post pics of the friction disc later this week.

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TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
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TeGGeR® - 15 Dec 2005 03:49 GMT

<snip>

> The pressure plate side was down to the rivets, and the flywheel side
> had maybe a few thou before it too hit the rivets. My tech figures I
> *might* have got 5-10K more out of it, but then it would have started
> slipping for sure.

Oh, I almost forgot: Mileage on replacement of the (original) clutch
was 255,800. Yes that's miles.

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TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

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Frank Boettcher - 15 Dec 2005 21:32 GMT

><snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Oh, I almost forgot: Mileage on replacement of the (original) clutch
>was 255,800. Yes that's miles.

Now that's getting some mileage out of a clutch! Are they mostly
highway miles?

I changed my '90 accord last year at 150K miles. changed it
preemptively. mechanic tried to talk me out of it because it had not
started to slip yet, but car was going off to college and I did not
want to deal with it if it went bad away from home. When he got it
out he said I must have been clairvoyant. Showed me the disk and we
agreed I would not have gotten 5K out of it, less if all around town
driving.

Frank

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Elle - 15 Dec 2005 21:46 GMT

> On 15 Dec 2005 03:49:01 GMT, "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
> >"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> agreed I would not have gotten 5K out of it, less if all around town
> driving.

Frank, how long did this job take you? Also, do you consider
this a beginner, intermediate, advanced, or other type job?

Tegger, I'll be looking for that photo at your site. How
much did your mechanic charge?

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Frank Boettcher - 15 Dec 2005 22:12 GMT

>> On 15 Dec 2005 03:49:01 GMT, "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m>
>wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>Frank, how long did this job take you? Also, do you consider
>this a beginner, intermediate, advanced, or other type job?

I did not do this one myself. Didn't have time. I've done several
clutch replacements but all on RWD vehicles, much different than FWD,
transverse engine mount. On the RWD, I would rate the job moderately
difficult, not for a beginner. Would be curious to have someone who
has done both to comment on which most difficult.

Mechanic charged me $520 parts and labor to do the Honda.

Frank

>Tegger, I'll be looking for that photo at your site. How
>much did your mechanic charge?

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TeGGeR® - 16 Dec 2005 04:26 GMT

> Tegger, I'll be looking for that photo at your site.

Once I get my hands on that disc...

> How much did your mechanic charge?

Here's a complete rundown (Canadian dollars):
Labor: $368
Parts:
22200-PR3-030 Clutch disc $118.74
22300-P30-030 Clutch cover $252.52
22810-PS1-015 Release bearing $63.59
91006-P10-000 Pilot bearing $12.98
91214-PLE-003 Oil seal $23.50
08798-9016C Honda MTL transmission fluid $13.68

Total before taxes: $853.01

Apparently the pressure plate used to be $150, but Honda bumped the price
to $252 a while back. :(

(Current Cdn/US exchange is $1 Cdn = $0.864 US)

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TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

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Elle - 16 Dec 2005 04:38 GMT

> Here's a complete rundown (Canadian dollars):
> Labor: $368
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> (Current Cdn/US exchange is $1 Cdn = $0.864 US)

Thanks. That's good history, altogether. Interesting to
follow.

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M.A. Stewart - 21 Dec 2005 22:44 GMT

>> Tegger, I'll be looking for that photo at your site.
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> (Current Cdn/US exchange is $1 Cdn = $0.864 US)

Ouch... OUCH... O U C H ! !

I changed a clutch on a 1987 Accord in 2002 and it cost $110.05 Cdn
(before taxes) for a clutch kit from Crappy Tire. The clutch kit was on
sale (25% off), and even came with a clutch disc alignment tool (splined
blue plastic)! That's the upside. The downside was that it took 19 hours
to do the job. The reason it took so long was that I was working in a very
narrow garage which had a gravel floor. It took 45 minutes to get the car
up in the air and blocked, 20 minutes to get it down. The jacking had to
be done in 2 stages with the peewee floor jack on a 2X12.

I lost more time building a transmission cradle to bolt to the peewee
jack. It took me an hour and a half to build it. To fit the cradle to the
irregular bottom of the tranny, I had to scrounge around for wood and
measure, cut, and screw the bits together. I had to run over twice to the
hardware store for drywall screws (having used most of the screws in the
garage wall to hang the damn parts on) and washers. But the time spent on
the cradle was worth it. Not a nick or scuff on any of the under body
paint!

Lost an other 45 min. scrounging for bits to build a ring gear
holder.

The clutch kit was a Fenco brand. It appeared to be well made. In fact I
think the Fenco disc is better than the Honda disc (the Fenco disc had
STEEL springs... not RUBBER springs [rubber torsion dampers] like the
original Honda disc!)

The clutch worked smooth as new when done.

Viewed your clutch disc dissection on your web site... cute! Save that
splined hub... you can use it as a tool to hold your tranny mainshaft if
you ever take your tranny apart. Also the large locknut (at fifth gear) on
the mainshaft is more than likely left-hand thread.

M.A. Stewart

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T L - 22 Dec 2005 02:17 GMT

I have also had good luck with aftermarket parts for an 87 prelude. Ended up
costing $125.

The job took us 8 hours, didn't bother with a holder for the trannie, just
lowered it onto my buddy's chest and rolled out from under the car. The
trannie only weighed about 150lbs, maybe less even...

But if we had planned to keep the prelude for a lot longer, I would have
definitely gone with OEM parts.

Kit came with release bearing, spline centering tool, friction plate, and
clutch housing. No pilot bearing on this prelude.

t

>>> Tegger, I'll be looking for that photo at your site.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
>M.A. Stewart

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TeGGeR® - 22 Dec 2005 02:47 GMT

>>> Tegger, I'll be looking for that photo at your site.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> (splined blue plastic)! That's the upside. The downside was that it
> took 19 hours to do the job.

Ouch indeed.

Two things though:
1) I will never buy hard parts like that from any aftermarket source, no
matter how much cheaper they are.
2) I didn't have a garage at all.
3) I didn't have 19 hourse to spend.

Originally I was going to borrow my sister's garage and husband to do the
job myself, but I decided I could not pull myself out of the loop for two
days. Too many reponsibilities, too little time.

<snip>

>
> The clutch kit was a Fenco brand. It appeared to be well made. In fact
> I think the Fenco disc is better than the Honda disc (the Fenco disc
> had STEEL springs... not RUBBER springs [rubber torsion dampers] like
> the original Honda disc!)

Apparently Honda thought steel was better too. Both my original and the new
Honda discs had steel springs.

<snip>

> Viewed your clutch disc dissection on your web site... cute!

It was quite an education. Now when I shift, I have this mental picture of
what's happening down there.

> Save that
> splined hub... you can use it as a tool to hold your tranny mainshaft
> if you ever take your tranny apart. Also the large locknut (at fifth
> gear) on the mainshaft is more than likely left-hand thread.

Good tips, thanks. At least one bearing *is* starting to get a bit noisy.
It's hard to hear just now, but my tech assures me that in a few years or
so I'll need to rebuild or replace.

One outer CV joint is apparently also beginning to get vocal. Again, it's
hard enough to hear that he's not sure if it's the left or the right
(thinks it's the left one), but that too can be left for several more
years. By that time I'll be close to 300,000 miles...

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TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

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T L - 22 Dec 2005 15:23 GMT

do you know which bearing is making noise? The input shaft bearing went bad
on my 98 civic after driving through some water during a flash flood in Las
Vegas, I had the dealer do it, it was about $400 for the job.

regarding your penchant for OEM parts, I definitely agree with you, but ONLY
if the car has sufficient life left in it to actually require parts that will
last as long as Honda OEM parts do. It goes back to Cost vs Benefit, so in
the case of the 87 prelude, we were not likely to be driving it another
100000kms, in fact its probably going to the wrecker in the next 12-18 months
with about 35000kms on the new clutch. If I had replaced with OEM, I would
be upset with myself for sending good parts to the wrecker. The car is just
too rusted out to last much longer.... fortunately it is no longer a daily
driver.

Such a shame too, the engine and transmission are in perfect condition, aside
from some tune up that needs to happen on the carbs. Car handles amazingly
too, though having no power steering is a huge PITA.

t

>>>> Tegger, I'll be looking for that photo at your site.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>(thinks it's the left one), but that too can be left for several more
>years. By that time I'll be close to 300,000 miles...

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TeGGeR® - 16 Dec 2005 04:14 GMT

>><snip>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Now that's getting some mileage out of a clutch! Are they mostly
> highway miles?

Yes, about 80-90% for the last ten years, but a mix of city and highway
before that.

I'm still having trouble getting used to the lightness of the pedal. The
over-center feeling doesn't help. The clutch now feels like the one in my
sister's Civic, which is almost new.

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TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

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Frank Boettcher - 16 Dec 2005 14:09 GMT

>>><snip>
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>over-center feeling doesn't help. The clutch now feels like the one in my
>sister's Civic, which is almost new.

I hear that. Kind of like the first time I drove a car with a
hydraulic actuated clutch after driving all those mechanical link
spring return cars. about put my foot through the floor board until I
got used to it.

Frank

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Drew - 17 Dec 2005 02:14 GMT

> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Oh, I almost forgot: Mileage on replacement of the (original) clutch
> was 255,800. Yes that's miles.

I got 185,000 in my CRX, thought that was good. Wow.

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