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Car Forum / Honda Cars / January 20061988 honda accord LX starting problem and loss of power
Hi everyone. This is my first time on a user group, so please bear with me. I love my 1988 accord LX, but have two problems with it lately. The symptoms are: 1. on a cold day (say <40 deg F), it will start great, run for about 15 seconds, then die. It will then almost start, doing the same thing, and get progressively worse each time I try, until it just does not fire at all. If I keep trying, after 5 or 10 minutes, I can sually get it to start. It does not _always_ give me this starting trouble on cold mornings, only sometimes (hence my trouble diagnosing the problem). I have already tried lots of dry gas, and new plugs. I also found, on an internet site, the suggestion to replace the distributor ignitor, which I did. I thought for a while that the new ignitor had fixed it, but now the problem is back. 2. In what I perceive to be a separate problem (but it might not be), the car will run great, but after an hour or more of running at say >40 mi/hr, the car will suddenly start to buck and lose power. It usually seems like it is about to die totally, but keeps sputtering along. I usually just keep things calm, and try to keep the revs up, and the problem goes away, in something like 3 to 10 minutes. I had a similar problem a few years ago (especially on cold, rainy conditions), and I found on an internet site the suggestion to check the vacuum diverter that sends warm air up to the carb from the exhaust manifold. I checked that, and it was not the diaphram, but the vacuum line leading into it that was bad. That fixed it. Now, a few years later, the symptoms are similar (but moist weather does not seem to be related). I replaced the two fuel filters a few years ago, plugs and air fileter recently, ignition wires a few years ago (gen honda). The car is in great shape. Burns no oil, 213 k miles, 30-35 mpg. I love it. But if I can't fix it soon, my wife will force me to give it up. Please help! Thanks. Does anyone know: Are these problems related? Any ideas on what each might be? > 2. In what I perceive to be a separate problem (but it might not be), > the car will run great, but after an hour or more of running at say >40 > mi/hr, the car will suddenly start to buck and lose power. It usually > seems like it is about to die totally, but keeps sputtering along. I > usually just keep things calm, and try to keep the revs up, and the > problem goes away, in something like 3 to 10 minutes. Until some of the pros see your message, some things to consider: How old is the ignition coil? How old is the battery? I wouldn't expect genuine Honda ignition wires to go bad within a few years, but still: Have you checked their resistance lately? Should be under 15k ohms each. Looked at them with the car running in the dark? Carburetor ever been cleaned? See also http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#startrun for more ideas about your Honda's starting/running problem. > Carburetor ever been cleaned? Good point - Forgot that an 88 is a carbed car and may not have the components I described. OP, Follow Elle's advice. Thanks for the tips. I'll wait until it won't start in the morning and then get my wife to come out and crank it for me while I check things out. I looked at the www.tegger.com web page. It looks very good and is a great reminder for me. Thanks for the site. I knew all of that, but have forgotten it. Why? Because I have a 2-year old, so it's hard to get my wife away from taking care of him to come out and crank the engine for me. On my last car that I worked on a lot (a 1971 Sabb 99), I could hot-wire the starter so I could crank it myself while under the hood; with this car, I have not worked on it enough to have figured out how to do that. By the way, how does the pcv valve come out of this car? It looks to me like it is in a u-shaped hose just in front of and below the bracket that holds the air cleaner to the valve cover. It looks like if I take the whole air cleaner housing off I'll have good access to it--but I can't really see how it is attached. It looks like it sticks into the block or intake manifold or something, with a hose attached to the other end. I have not changed that in at least five years, and I am sure that I should put a new one in. Again, thanks a lot for helping me out. > By the way, how does the pcv valve come out of this car? It looks to > me like it is in a u-shaped hose just in front of and below the bracket > that holds the air cleaner to the valve cover. It's best to have the new one in your hand while you're looking for the old one. I don't think it's the U-shaped hose at which you're looking. See the drawing of part #18 at http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay. jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=Accord&catcgry2=1988&catcgry3=4DR+ LX&catcgry4=KA5MT&catcgry5=BREATHER+PIPE-OIL+FILTER Also, www.autozone.com has a free repair guide for the 1988 Accord. Follow the pointers at the site. There should be a description of the PCV system there, possibly with photos or drawings. Way to chase down those possible vacuum leaks. I don't see a grommet attaching to the PCV valve in the drawing, but if you find one, replace it, too. They can leak with age, as you may know. > It looks like if I take > the whole air cleaner housing off I'll have good access to it-- Not sure if there's any interference to remove to get to the valve. > but I > can't really see how it is attached. It looks like it sticks into the > block or intake manifold or something, with a hose attached to the > other end. On most (many?) cars, the PCV valve vents gases from the crankcase (via a breather chamber, which tends to be located about mid-engine height; lower than the PCV valve; higher than the oil pan) to the intake manifold. It does on my 91 Civic and I think most of the other Hondas I've looked at in drawings. So look for pipes connected thusly. > I have not changed that in at least five years, and I am > sure that I should put a new one in. Again, thanks a lot for helping > me out. Dear Remco-- Your tips about the fuel pump are very interesting. My wife seemed to think the loss of power and bucking problem at highway speeds was correlated with the tank being less than half full. (Unfortunately, I probably told her that although she might have a point, I could not think of why the gas level would matter!) Even though my car has a carb, would all of your thoughts about the fuel pump still apply? The carb need gas too! Thanks for taking the time to give me your help. > Dear Remco-- > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Thanks for taking the time to give me your help. (I think you posted this a couple of days ago -- sorry, I must have missed it, because I didn't see it until just now) If it has an electric fuel pump and that pump is indeed located inside the tank, it is one suspect that could cause your issues. See if the problem consistently goes away with a full tank -- if so, chances are your pump is having some issues. To see if it is a power issue to the pump, you could clip a small lightbulb with some wires attached across the power leads to the pump. Put the bulb someplace where you can easily see it (like from your rear view mirror). Since your problem is intermittent, next time you are having problems, make sure that the bulb is indeed lit. If it is lit, you know it isn't the power to the pump. Pumps do go bad, but I'd hate for you to shotgun replace it without knowing for sure and here's my reason: A friend of mine was complaining that intermittently his car (saab or volvo, I forgot) would start bucking, lose power and then be fine again. First we replaced his filter as that is cheap and often the problem. When it didn't fix it, we figured it must be a bad pump or pressure regulator. The injectors were fine, we had determined. Spark was great. His would actually die faster on a full tank, which makes sense in retrospect: Totally by accident, we found that the gas cap was supposed to be vented. He had somehow put another cap on (possibly at a gas station, left by someone else) it that did fit but wasn't vented and caused the car to stumble after it had been driven a while. That your problem is related to the gas cap is a long shot, but I am just illustrating that with this swedish car we initially thought it was related to having an intermittent fuel pump (hence my reluctance to tell you to replace it). Have we for for sure determined that your problem is a fuel delivery problem? Non spark is easier to check for. Remco Dear Remco: Thanks again for your input. I am pretty sure it has an electric fuel pump since I have never seen one under the hood in all the times I have been under there. I'll look into this suggestion. Do you recall my other problem? On starting, the car sometimes starts, runs great--for about 10 seconds, then dies, after which it won't start (although if I keep trying, I can usually get it to catch). The other day, when it would not start, I finally had someone to crank while I checked the spark (which looked fine). I then shot some starting fluid straight down the throat of the carb, and it started up beautifully. That the starting problem is a fuel problem. Maybe they are related. Thanks. > Dear Remco: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Thanks. It could be related -- if your car has a main relay, that can indeed be a symtom of having a bad main relay. Look at the tegger.com site and see if the main relay problem describes what's happening to you. Tie a small lightbulb or voltmeter across the fuel pump and see if you have power when starting and running. It would be that the power is fine when starting (actually priming the pump), but then drops out when the car starts running. A main relay can be repaired under most circumstances as they are prone to having dry solder contacts -- also described on Tegger.com. Hope you get it fixed soon. Remco > It could be related -- if your car has a main relay, that can indeed be > a symtom of having a bad main relay. Look at the tegger.com site and > see if the main relay problem describes what's happening to you. I thought only fuel-injected Hondas had main relays? This Accord in question has a carburetor. > > It could be related -- if your car has a main relay, that can indeed be > > a symtom of having a bad main relay. Look at the tegger.com site and > > see if the main relay problem describes what's happening to you. > > I thought only fuel-injected Hondas had main relays? This Accord in > question has a carburetor. If he has an electric pump, there's a good chance it is switched through a relay, one would imagine. (not quite the main relay we're thinking of in modern Hondas) Of course, this thing does not need to do the power sequence of pressurizing the lines, etc as with fuel injection. Hi Remco. So the current status is that I think the cold start problem (on cold mornings, runs for 5-10s then dies and won't restart) is a fuel problem (checked spark at these times and it's fine, and shooting ether down the carb makes it start fine and then run fine). I went through the Honda shop manual diagnosis for cold start problems, and my fast idle unloader does not hold vacuum on the front-most vac. line. I think this means that it is broken. The next recommendation in the manual is to check this part out and look for leaks. I want to remove it. The fast idle unloader has three screws holding it in place, but I can't get to them because a bank of vac. lines blocks access. Do you have any tips on how to get this part out easily? Thanks. > Hi Remco. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Thanks. Sorry, you got me there. If they are just vac lines, wouldn't they just pull off? Maybe carefully mark each one, take a picture of what they look like and do what you gotta do to get to that part. Oops. Sorry. I did not explain that well. It is the part of the fast idle unloader that leads to the front-most vacuum line, not the vacuum line, that is not holding the vacuum. I think this means that the diaphragm in that part of the fast idle unloader actuator is leaking (there are two levels of action in the fast idle unloader, and that vacuum line only goes to one part, I think) Thanks a lot for your resonse. Without a good manual that tells me how to get to that part or the carburator easily, I don't feel like spending the time to do it myself. I may take it to a Honda dealer (we have a good one around here). Thanks. stretchuhon...@yahoo.com wrote: > Oops. Sorry. I did not explain that well. It is the part of the fast > idle unloader that leads to the front-most vacuum line, not the vacuum [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Thanks. Have you tried the www.autozone.com site? They have free on line manuals and they do seem to cover your car. Perhaps they show you how you can get to it. (click on the "do it yourself" tab, select the "repair info" clickable and enter your car) Remco Remco-- I am going to forgo the fast idle unloader theory for now, and put some leads on the fuel pump as you recommended, and then watch it. That way, I'll be able to verify juice to the fuel pump for either of my problems. By the way, my Honda manual tells me that for this carb'ed model (88 accord LX) there is a fuel cut-off relay (located _on_ the lower right of the fuse panel when the back-side of the panel is viewed from the front of the car). I'll let you know what I find. thanks. > Remco-- > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I'll let you know what I find. It may be worth swapping over that relay with another of similar style if they simply plug in.  SignatureGraham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro-society.freeserve.co.uk/ Wessex Dorset UK Astro Society's Web pages, Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter. > Remco-- > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > thanks. That sounds like a good plan. Yes, do report your findings, because they might be of use to others here. Hope you'll get it soon. Remco > Hi everyone. This is my first time on a user group, so please bear > with me. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > love it. But if I can't fix it soon, my wife will force me to give it > up. Please help! It would be impossible to say for sure, but it could have something to do with fuel delivery. I am not excluding spark or air, though, since we don't know anything yet. Perhaps power to the pump disappears periodically, the line is clogged, fuel pressure of not right or the pump is not working right. Next time it happens, see if smacking the plastic panel near your left knee helps. The main relay (switches power to the fuel pump) is under that panel and is notorious for making bad contact. Is the problem worse with an empty tank? I ask because the fuel pump is cooled by being immersed in gas (I think that is the case with Hondas also). Sometimes older pumps start misbehaving when they aren't getting proper cooling. Look at www.tegger.com and check out the no start symptoms described to see which matches your condition best. Then report back with your findings. Remco > related). I replaced the two fuel filters a few years ago, plugs and > air fileter recently, ignition wires a few years ago (gen honda). how about the distributor cap and rotor? OEM, of course. and id check out the condition of the insides- oil leaks, dust, "red dust", etc... Again, thanks for the tips! And thanks for directing me to the majestichonda site. Someone else (actually another honda dealer) turned me on to it already, but had I not known about it, your direction there would have done it. >t's best to have the new one in your hand while you're >looking for the old one. Another generally good tip! I have had the new pcv in my garage for several years now, so I know what this one looks like. >I don't think it's the U-shaped hose at which you're >looking. See the drawing of part #18 at >In the figure there, I see the pcv, and I I mis-spoke. I meant that it looked to me like the pcv might be located _under_ , i.e., one end sticking into, the u-shaped hose. According to the exploded view on the very useful majestic site, it does look like the pcv sticks into a u-shaped hose (#8), so I will feel better about proceding! My official honda shop manual showed a generic view of the pcv and its hoses--which does not look like mine, and it threw me off. Thanks for the tip about the autozone site. I did not know that one, and it is great! I checked it out, and it is very helpful. In fact, their photos (fig 2 and fig 3) at http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?ForwardPage=/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/0 c/ed/e1/0900823d800cede1.jsp show exactly the location and configuration of my pcv. Great! Fig. 3 shows the u-shaped hose--after the air cleaner bracket has been removed! (one can't see it too well with the bracket on.). In my car then, I will have to take off the air cleaner housing (or at least the bracket that goes from the air cleaner to the valve cover), the latter of which is simple. Thanks for the tip about the grommet. I did not think of that, but it makes a lot of sense to me. I think the suggestions here have been very good. Thank you all. > Thanks for the tip about the autozone site. I did not know that one, > and it is great! > I checked it out, and it is very helpful. In fact, their photos (fig 2 > and fig 3) at http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?ForwardPage=/az/cds /en_us/0900823d/80/0c/ed/e1/0900823d800cede1.jsp > show exactly the location and configuration of my pcv. snip for brevity Finally someone besides myself has peered into Autozone's fantastic online free repair manuals! It has manuals for Hondas 1995 and earlier, among other makes of car. They are as detailed as the modern Chilton's series, which from my reading replicate at least a lot of the Helm manuals. It's good to have your review on the record. Good luck. Dear SoCalMike-- Thanks a lot for your tip. It's easy to forget the obvious things, so it's nice to be gently reminded! Upon your prompting, I checked my parts receipts, and I see that I replaced them when I replaced the TEC vacuum diaphram about 1 1/2 years ago. Of course, they could still be bad. I probably have spare old ones around, so I could put them on and check things out (if only this problem would stop being so intermittent!). My main problem in all of this is patience. I lack it. I don't feel like working on the car now, but I need it working. I used to work on my car(s) a lot, but haven't so much in the past 10 years (ever since I started buying recent model Japanese cars which don't seem to require as much repair work!) The encouragement from all of you is very helpful. Thanks. I would replace the fuel pump unless it has under 100 K mi. They're only about a hundred bucks. I had one wear out, and present intermittent bucking. Dear Mister Beets: Thanks for your response. My car has 221k miles and is going strong. The fuel pump has never been replaced. I don't know if you followed the thread, but I had another problem, which I don't know is related. On starting, the car sometimes starts, runs great--for about 10 seconds, then dies, after which it won't start (although if I keep trying, I can usually get it to catch). The other day, when it would not start, I finally had someone to crank while I checked the spark (which looked fine). I then shot some starting fluid straight down the throat of the carb, and it started up beautifully. That the starting problem is a fuel problem. Thanks for your input. im having a problem starting my hondaaccord lx before it kept on turning over and would not start i changed the distibiror and the points i think at least that what the place i took it to said. now its doing the same thing. i looked at the spark plugs and they were black and burnt out do u think changing them would help. any help in this matter would help thank u Pabloonya > im having a problem starting my hondaaccord lx before it kept on turning > over and would not start i changed the distibiror and the points i think > at least that what the place i took it to said. now its doing the same > thing. i looked at the spark plugs and they were black and burnt out do u > think changing them would help. any help in this matter would help thank > u Pabloonya What year? It has points? Go to www.tegger.com and see how closely your no-start condition matches the descriptions. It also has somethings to try. Then return here with your findings. Remco Oh the same old Honda starting problem. I posted starting problem message fews time before. Ok all the starting problem from Main Relay, Fuel pump, starter, I did not believe my worst starting problem was on fault alarm system. My car did not start in the morning all the time in past 3 or 4 yr. I never find out what the real problem was. Someone suggested changed the Main Relay so I did that. I accidently discovered I had the fault alarm starting system that caused the car not to start up in the morning. See before the starter to run, the alarm system must check on right. I got the false alarm system check. I luckily find out where the alarm problem coming from. now finally all the starting nagging problem is gone. The car starts all the time first try in the morning. My point is this: look for any fault alarm system. > Oh the same old Honda starting problem. I posted starting problem > message [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > all the time first try in the morning. > My point is this: look for any fault alarm system. Very good point. Of course, the alarm may be disabling the fuel delivery and/or spark generation, depending on how they wired the thing. To make sure, it would be a good idea to check the power to the fuel pump (also makes sure the main relay is ok) and to the distributor (coil primary). Remco I have exactly the same bucking and loss of power problem with my wife's 1988 Accord LX. And believe it or not, she said the same thing when the problem started in November - it only seems to happen with less than half a tank of gas. But it's gotten worse and it happened to me recently with over 3/4 of a tank full. I also put dry gas in the tank. When it happened again, I replaced both fuel filters. I took it to a local independent Honda specialist who couldn't find the problem, but still charged me. Have you had any success in finding the problem? Thanks! > I have exactly the same bucking and loss of power problem with my > wife's 1988 Accord LX. And believe it or not, she said the same thing [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Thanks! I hate to tell you that replacing the fuel pump will definitely solve your problem as there's something wrong with the shotgun repair approach, replacing something without proof. However, if it consistently runs well with a full fuel tank, your fuel pump is definitely suspect. It may not be cooled right so the bearings may be seizing, in effect not maintaining fuel pressure or intermittenly not providing fuel. It is a common problem with immersed pumps, especially when they are older. Since it is quite difficult to determine an intermittent problem like the health of your pump or fuel pressure while you are driving, personally I'd break my rule and replace it. <g> (especially since they experts can't find the problem :) Remco Thanks for the input. I'll let you know how this turns out. > Thanks for the input. > I'll let you know how this turns out. Dear Welligiveup: I was about to put some wires and a 12V bulb and on the wires supplying juice to my fuel pump, but I have a full tank now and the car is running great (although I have been taking only 6-mile trips to work lately). I do believe that a fuel problem makes sense, but I wanted to put the light on the leads, as Remco suggested, to try to rule out a bad fuel-pump cut out relay (or maybe the fault signal that another person recommended). But as you can imagine, since the car is running fine, I have less reason to go out in the garage and fix it! I have just priced a fuel pump, and it really is only $104 (at www.majestichonda.com), but unfortunately, their figure has three part numbers listed, and I can't figure out which one is the right one. If I figure it out and buy one, I'll let you know what happens. I guess you saw that I already replaced the distributor ignitor (~$170) which I though fixed my cold start problem, but in the end, it did not fix that. It probably was not that. |
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