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Car Forum / Honda Cars / December 200599 civic - valves are now fixed, tbelt is good, but cold idle is weird
Hi all, Previous posts I have put up will bring you through the 'saga' i have had with my sisters car. Short story is that the t-belt snapped. It was then taken to a honda dealership. They just put it back together (650 bucks later) said no compression on cylinder 3. Obviously, the incident caused valve damage on cylinder 3 (all 4 valves bent), so I took the car to my house, pulled the head off, replaced them and put it back together. Well its all back together now, and it is running well, except at initial startup. It takes 10-15 seconds for it to figure things out, then it goes up to about 1500 rpms until warmed up, and drops down to the correct rpm. I told my sisters husband that this is probably due to there being air in the cooling system. I imagine that if the car has been sitting overnight, that the air in the system would 'burp' up to the top of the cooling system. Pretty much right at the top is the coolant temp sensor, which would not be immersed due to the air in the system. After 10-15 seconds though, the water pump will have primed the system, and the sensor would now be immersed, allowing the correct idle to be attained. Is this a safe assumption or am I talking outta my a.s? :) Other items of note: Initially, the car had been put back together (without any work on the valves) at a honda dealership. 2 items got destroyed when the t-belt snapped; the CKF sensor and the lower timing cover. Well there are already belt slap marks on the inside of the timing cover due to incorrect tension setting on honda's part. Also, the timing belt was off by 1 tooth from the dealership. I'm pretty pissed at the dealerfor their complete lack of knowledge on how to tell if there is valve damage without actually just putting it back together and hearing a cylinder miss. Thoughts? t > Well its all back together now, and it is running well, except at initial > startup. It takes 10-15 seconds for it to figure things out, then it goes [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the > cooling system. I don't quite see a problem here. How long does it take to get warmed up? Maybe there's a bit more detail you could provide. Fifteen hundred RPM when stopped with the engine running, but just started from cold, doesn't strike me as too odd; maybe a bit high. The RPM should go down to normal idle within ten minutes or less, I would think. At least, that's how it is with my 91 Civic. Other Hondas shouldn't take much longer. > I imagine that if the car has been sitting overnight, > that [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Is this a safe assumption or am I talking outta my a.s? :) I'm not wild about the particulars. For example, as the coolant temperature rises, the air is more readily released for accumulation at high spots in the system. As it cools, it should be less likely to come out of solution. Another regular here was talking about this the other day, arguing that the water pump will move air out of the system. To me, that's a very suspect argument. Liquid pumps are designed to move essentially incompressible fluids, like drinking water. Most don't do so well when there are gases in the liquid system as well. That is, full flow won't occur with gases in the system. To properly "prime" a liquid pumping system means to remove the air and other gases from it, usually by applying a liquid head to the system somehow and giving the air someplace to go. I'm not quite convinced that by /just/ running the water pump all the air in a car's cooling system will find its way up towards the radiator cap, through the overflow tube, and out the reservoir vent. Ya gotta heat the system up, too, for one thing, to abet the release of the gases from solution. For another, ya gotta provide a vent. With the radiator cap on, and so the system pressurized, those gases can't really thoroughly bubble out. Hence the purging procedure has one beginning with a cold engine (and heater control on max hot), removing the radiator cap from the fill neck, leaving the cap off, then starting the car. Any air slowly bubbles out the fill neck. Ya wait until the fan comes on twice, which means the coolant is about as hot as it can get, too. Then top off the system, screw on the cap, and go. Check reservoir level an hour later, a day later, then a few days, then weeks. If you're at all worried, why not just do a proper purge, letting that fan come on twice, and see what happens? > Other items of note: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Thoughts? Dealer services and Honda specialized independent shops have disappointed me on technical repair matters at least three out of some five times. And yes, I was pissed, though I chalk some of this up to their being under so much pressure to move cars in and out. They are not necessarily the most knowledgeable folks. Ya either pay through the nose (same deal with doctors and now some lawyers, afaic; they don't know what the heck they're talking about much of the time and bluff like the best, charging you for every darn worthless minute to boot) or learn to fix your car yourself. Sorry for the lack of clarity.... When started from cold, it takes the car 10-15 seconds to find the 'high idle' which should be at around 1500rpms. Instead, it sits at about 600rpms and almost stalls. After 10-15 seconds, it seems to be fine. t Haven't seen that particular type of idle problem here before. I thought idle problems tended to be high ones. Still, I'd purge this car's cooling system and also be in the troubleshooting chart under "Emission Controls" in my Chilton's. It has a chart dedicated to "Idle Control" problems. For what you describe for a 92-95 Civic, it points to the problem most likely being the Fast Idle Thermo Valve. Which may be cooled by the cooling system... Then it points to the Idle Air Control Valve, which I think definitely is cooled by the cooling system. Another chart, but for coded (that is, check engine light on) idle problems points to the engine coolant temp sensor, like you were saying... > Sorry for the lack of clarity.... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > After 10-15 seconds, it seems to be fine. > Sorry for the lack of clarity.... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > After 10-15 seconds, it seems to be fine. That's because the current sent to the lazy AIC is ignored by the AIC for a couple seconds. To troubleshoot, measure the current on the AIC just right after startup. If there is current but no reaction, repair the AIC. > I'm not quite convinced that by /just/ running the water > pump all the air in a car's cooling system will find its way [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > radiator cap on, and so the system pressurized, those gases > can't really thoroughly bubble out. I don't see all of the remaining air will make it to the cap. If the car never heats up the thermostat never opens, you'll probably have gases running around the heater core instead. Which is usually the case when there isn't any substantial amount of liquid to open the thermostat. > Hence the purging > procedure has one beginning with a cold engine (and heater > control on max hot), removing the radiator cap from the fill > neck, leaving the cap off, then starting the car. Any air > slowly bubbles out the fill neck. Again, I doubt all the air is going to make it out thru the cap. That's what the bleed bolt is designed for. It's one of the highest point in the cooling system. It must be bled here. > Ya wait until the fan > comes on twice, which means the coolant is about as hot as > it can get, too. Then top off the system, screw on the cap, > and go. Check reservoir level an hour later, a day later, > then a few days, then weeks. If bled properly the reservoir won't change days or weeks later. Many cars offer different ways of bleeding, but if people check out this link more likely it'll work for your car. http://square.cjb.cc/c/?HowToBleedCoolants > "Elle" <honda.lioness@earthlink.net> wrote > > I'm not quite convinced that by /just/ running the water [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I don't see all of the remaining air will make it to the cap. Huh? Are you agreeing with what I wrote? Or are you practicing your English on the newsgroups? Dammit. > If > the car never heats up the thermostat never opens, you'll [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Again, I doubt all the air is going to make it out thru the cap. That's > what the bleed bolt is designed for. I think we're having a disconnect. It's a two step process. The manual has one first bleeding as much air as possible out the bleed bolt, with the engine cold and off. Then it has one bleeding it out the filler neck, with the engine running until the fan comes on. The bleed bolt can purge only so much air, since the coolant is not yet hot. > It's one of the highest point > in the cooling system. It must be bled here. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > If bled properly the reservoir won't change days or weeks later. Right. To confirm a proper purging, I check the reservoir. > Many cars offer different ways of bleeding, but if people check > out this link more likely it'll work for your car. > > http://square.cjb.cc/c/?HowToBleedCoolants What the hell's wrong with the manual? Several of which are online already. Your steps differ from it. For one, you do not direct that the car be run with the rad cap off until the fan comes on twice. For another, the manual does not direct opening of the bleed valve with the car running. Step 8's english is atrocious. You are practicing your English with this site, aren't you? Had enough of that bull in grad school... > Are you agreeing with what I wrote? Neither. I'd accidentally hit the send button and sent the draft instead. Just ignore it. I'd intended to reply to this paragraph. > I'm not quite convinced that by /just/ running the water > pump all the air in a car's cooling system will find its way [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > and go. Check reservoir level an hour later, a day later, > then a few days, then weeks. What I wanted to say is that the above method omitted the bleed bolt, which is very important. > I think we're having a disconnect. It's a two step process. > The manual has one first bleeding as much air as possible > out the bleed bolt, with the engine cold and off. Then it > has one bleeding it out the filler neck, with the engine > running until the fan comes on. True. But you didn't mentioned that earlier. > The bleed bolt can purge only so much air, since the coolant > is not yet hot. The bleed bolt can purge a very substantial amount of air. On some models (90-94 Accord) this is a major place to bleed. > What the hell's wrong with the manual? Several of which are > online already. Nothing's wrong with the service manual. What's wrong are the steps. They're model specific. > For one, you do not direct that the car be run with the rad > cap off until the fan comes on twice. I see, you want to remove the cap while under pressure. Be my guess. >For another, the manual does not direct opening of the bleed >valve with the car running. I know. They're not living in the real world. > Step 8's english is atrocious. Fixed. English, not english. > You are practicing your English with this site, aren't you? > Had enough of that bull in grad school... "Burt S." <burtsquareman@gmail.comSPAM> wrote E snip > > For one, you do not direct that the car be run with the rad > > cap off until the fan comes on twice. > > I see, you want to remove the cap while under pressure. Nope. Read what I wrote, and see the manual as I advise. > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > t yes - good for you!!! you can try taking issue with the dealer, but since you did the work yourself, there's no labor receipts you can show the dealer for "loss" in getting their repair repaired, so it could be tricky. still worth it though. call the main honda usa customer care # too and discuss the problem with them first. they're generally fair. again, good for you in fixing the car - there's many a good honda prematurely consigned to the junk yard because of "repairs" like your dealer did. soooo, any ideas on the funky idle for 10-15 seconds on cold start? It did not do this before we did all the work on it. t > soooo, any ideas on the funky idle for 10-15 seconds on cold start? > > It did not do this before we did all the work on it. > > t 1. coolant, although that's usually later in the warmup process. 2. if the idle had been set wrong to compensate for bad belt timing, you'll need to re-do that. 3. also, make sure the valve lash is correct. if you've had the head off, it's always good to re-check it a few hundred miles later. 4. condensation inside distributor cap? Funny thing: I checked the car myself today. It started perfectly, idling around 1500-1700rpm until it warmed up. NOTE that I am located in Winnipeg Canada, and it is below freezing here right now. There were a few drops of oil in the coolant when I took the cap off the rad, I think this is to be expected when a head gasket job is done. It certainly was not excessive, and I removed the apparent oil. Thanks for all the comments and suggestions, any words of caution or encouragement are always welcome.... :) t > Funny thing: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > t in that case, it was the coolant burping. not unusual after the system's been drained.
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