 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Car Forum / Honda Cars / February 2006Darn! My '94 Del Sol failed the California Smog Check today
After having passed the California smog check for 2 tests (4 years) in a row, my stock '94 Del Sol ("S" model with 1.5L engine) failed today. :-( It's the first time I've ever had any car fail the Smog Check, in 20 years of living in California. I have never made any modifications to the engine, and I take it in for regular maintenance according to the maintenance schedule. It has been about 6500 miles since its last oil change, and I don't use any pour-in fuel additives. It is running normally with no noticeable engine problems. Here in California the DMV has recently made the Smog Check test more sophisticated, using a 'dynamometer' (treadmill) to test the car under load. They test the car at a simulated 15mph and at 25mph. They also added a NOX (nitrous oxide) emissions check, and that's the one that my car failed, but only at 15mph. As for my other emissions test results, my Del Sol had extremely low CO2, O2, HC and CO emissions at both 15mph and 25mph, but failed the Nitrous Oxide (NOX) test at 15mph. In fact, the NOX emission was about 3 times higher at 15mph than at 25mph, which seems counter-intuitive. I had driven the car at least 15 miles before arriving at the test facility, so it was well warmed-up. Has anyone else seen this kind of failure with an older Honda Civic or Del Sol? If so, what was the culprit? I'm trying to get an idea how much it's going to cost to have it fixed. Thanks for any ideas, feedback, or sympathy. :-) -DK > After having passed the California smog check for 2 tests (4 years) in a > row, my stock '94 Del Sol ("S" model with 1.5L engine) failed today. :-( [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > (nitrous oxide) emissions check, and that's the one that my car failed, but > only at 15mph. NOX is usually a function of the EGR valve, which your car might not have. timing can also effect it, so id check that and replace the plugs/plug wires/dist cap/rotor with OEM if necessary. went through all that with a 1975 MG midget. by the time i got the EGR unclogged, the smog pump working right, and a new $99 catalytic converter on, it passed with flying colors. IIRC, some of the emissions were *0*. > As for my other emissions test results, my Del Sol had extremely low CO2, > O2, HC and CO emissions at both 15mph and 25mph, but failed the Nitrous [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Sol? If so, what was the culprit? I'm trying to get an idea how much it's > going to cost to have it fixed. the O2 sensor is likely long overdue, if its never been replaced. a place that ISNT "test only" should be able to pinpoint the exact problem. > Thanks for any ideas, feedback, or sympathy. :-) > > -DK > After having passed the California smog check for 2 tests (4 years) in > a row, my stock '94 Del Sol ("S" model with 1.5L engine) failed today. > :-( It's the first time I've ever had any car fail the Smog Check, in > 20 years of living in California. Post ALL your numbers, including the limits for your area. > I have never made any modifications to the engine, and I take it in > for regular maintenance according to the maintenance schedule. It has [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > added a NOX (nitrous oxide) emissions check, and that's the one that > my car failed, but only at 15mph. Post ALL your numbers, including the limits for your area. > As for my other emissions test results, my Del Sol had extremely low > CO2, O2, HC and CO emissions at both 15mph and 25mph, but failed the > Nitrous Oxide (NOX) test at 15mph. In fact, the NOX emission was > about 3 times higher at 15mph than at 25mph, which seems > counter-intuitive. I had driven the car at least 15 miles before > arriving at the test facility, so it was well warmed-up. Post ALL your numbers, including the limits for your area. If you were extremely low in HC and CO, that suggests either you're running hot, timing is too far advanced, or your EGR system is not working correctly. You cannot be extremely low in CO2 if you were extremely low in HC and CO. If you were very low in HC and CO, that means the cat has managed to bind its stored oxygen to the CO and HCs to make them into CO2 and water. So CO2 ought to be HIGH.  SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > If you were extremely low in HC and CO, AND your NOx numbers are high, I meant to say... > that suggests either you're > running hot, timing is too far advanced, or your EGR system is not > working correctly. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ Hello and thanks for all the responses. Here are all of the Emmission Test Result numbers from my failing test report: = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Line 1: Test=15mph RPM=1727 %CO2 meas=15.6 %02 meas=0.0 HC (PPM) MAX=92, AVE=21, MEAS=13 CO (%) MAX=0.55, AVE=0.06, MEAS=0.03 NO (PPM) MAX=716, AVE=150, MEAS=991 FAIL = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Line 2: RPM=1904 %CO2 meas=15.5 %02 meas=0.0 HC (PPM) MAX=57, AVE=13, MEAS=11 CO (%) MAX=0.54, AVE=0.05, MEAS=0.02 NO (PPM) MAX=764, AVE=136, MEAS=354 PASS = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = -DK > After having passed the California smog check for 2 tests (4 years) in a > row, my stock '94 Del Sol ("S" model with 1.5L engine) failed today. :-( [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > -DK For the Line 2 numbers, I forgot to type "Test = 25mph". -DK > Hello and thanks for all the responses. Here are all of the > Emmission Test Result numbers from my failing test report: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > RPM=1727 > %CO2 meas=15.6 Good number there. Means the catalytic converter is successfully converting the CO into CO2. > %02 meas=0.0 Good. Means the cat is soaking up oxygen properly, so it's in good shape. It also suggests you don't have an exhaust leak. > HC (PPM) MAX=92, AVE=21, MEAS=13 Low number there. You're probably running lean. > CO (%) MAX=0.55, AVE=0.06, MEAS=0.03 You're running a bit lean. > NO (PPM) MAX=716, AVE=150, MEAS=991 California checks your ignition timing as part of the test, doesn't it? Then we can rule that out. Possible causes: EGR passage to the EGR valve carboned up Fuel pressure regulator weak Rich-biased oxygen sensor I'd run a bottle or two of Techron through it for the next week or so (just to make sure the injectors and valve tops are reasonably clean) and then take it back for a retest. If it still fails on the same thing, clean the EGR passages. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > California checks your ignition timing as part of the test, doesn't it? theyre *supposed* to. whether the mechanic can read the marks correctly is another story. and if it was done at a "test only" station, they arent allowed to fix it, and arent even supposed to suggest a cause. > Then we can rule that out. > > Possible causes: > EGR passage to the EGR valve carboned up on my MG, the actual EGR valve was faulty. i applied vacuum to it with a mityvac hand pump, or TRIED to. wouldnt work. took it off and inspected, the diaphragm was split. > Fuel pressure regulator weak > Rich-biased oxygen sensor [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > take it back for a retest. If it still fails on the same thing, clean the > EGR passages. id vote for the timing being off. Does a del sol have an EGR? My 98 civic 1.6 SOHC Non Vtec does not. >> California checks your ignition timing as part of the test, doesn't it? > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >id vote for the timing being off. > Does a del sol have an EGR? My 98 civic 1.6 SOHC Non Vtec does not. thats what i was wondering too. i dont think they do, which would mean some kind of timing problem, at low speed. too retarded? advanced? is there a vacuum thingie on the distributor? > After having passed the California smog check for 2 tests (4 years) in a > row, my stock '94 Del Sol ("S" model with 1.5L engine) failed today. :-( > It's the first time I've ever had any car fail the Smog Check, in 20 years > of living in California. <SNIP> Just for kicks, change the PCV (since they never get changed) along with using the injector cleaner. Anybody else think that will help? If the PCV is wacky, doesn't the computer 'misread' some of it's variables? 'Curly' > DavidK wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Just for kicks, change the PCV (since they never get changed) along with > using the injector cleaner. Anybody else think that will help? > If the > PCV is wacky, doesn't the computer 'misread' some of it's variables? From my reading and experience, yes, typically causing an overly rich fuel mixture and so causing fuel mileage to decline. But as I think we've discussed in the past, it's the CO reading that should be out of spec for a bad PCV valve. A malfunctioning EGR system, among other things, is said to be a possible cause of the high NOX. See http://www.aircare.ca/index.php?repinfo-glossary.php , especially the "Causes of Excess Emissions" part. See also http://www.interro.com/techgas.html#anchoreleven But I agree that, if this is the original PCV valve, it's due for replacement, if only for the sake of maximizing fuel mileage and minimizing the chance of oil leaks. Status Update on my '94 Del Sol emissions: The '94 Del Sol doesn't have an EGR. Here are the results from the Visual Inspection/Functional Check Results section of the Smog Check: = = = = = = = = = = EGR (visual)...N/A PCV...Pass Catalytic Converter...Pass Fuel Cap Integrity...Pass EGR(functional)...N/A Thermostatic Air Cleaner...N/A Air Injection...N/A Ignition Timing: 9 BTDC...Pass Spark Controls...Pass Fuel Evaporative Controls...Pass System Malfunction Light...Pass Oxygen Sensor...Pass = = = = = = = = = = So I took the car to a "certified smog check and repair" station, and they told me the following (the tests cost me $125): >>> "O2 Sensor working properly (switches at 200 - 800)" >>> "Fuel System Control working properly" >>> "CAT tested bad on 10 sec. cranks [?], HC=895ppm, should be below 500ppm, CO2 is borderline" They told me I need a new catalytic converter, $299 installed (a 3rd party repair shop does the work offsite). I decided to hold off for a few days while I figure out what's going on. = = = = = = = = = = Thinking I might try to replace the CAT myself (I work on cars about once every decade!), I called the local Kragen and they said they have a Maremont "direct fit" replacement that costs $135. Here's a picture of it: http://ecat.arvinmeritor.com/smartlink/exhaustspec.aspx?partnum=29132 I didn't buy it, but I crawled under the car and removed the heat shields surrounding the CAT to see if I'd have a chance at doing the job myself. I can easily get at 4 out of 5 bolts that hold the CAT to the tailpipe sections, but there's one bolt that is nearly impossible to loosen because it's on the exact top of the tailpipe where there's very little room to swing a rachet wrench. So I buttoned it back up and decided I'll have a shop do the work. Do you know if a 'pro' would remove the entire exhaust in order to swap out the CAT? I definitely don't want to get into that, with all the rusted bolts and difficulty I'd have at getting at them. A little history about my car: I looked back at its Smog Check results from 2004, and I noticed that it JUST BARELY passed the NOX spec at 15mph (it scored 712ppm, and the MAX was 716ppm); all other numbers were well below the MAX. So I guess this problem has been looming for a few years and it's about time I 'clean up' the car's exhaust. Thanks again for all your great input and ideas...this is a great forum for learning. David K. > After having passed the California smog check for 2 tests (4 years) in a > row, my stock '94 Del Sol ("S" model with 1.5L engine) failed today. :-( [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > -DK > They told me I need a new catalytic converter, $299 installed (a 3rd party > repair shop does the work offsite). I decided to hold off for a few days > while I figure out what's going on. a brand spanking new cat would likely do it, as well as dropping the other applicable numbers even lower. Has it been 6,500 miles on the oil? My brother has a close friend who works emissions tests in PA....says oil can affect the readings. Why not try some high milage oil and see what happens? Good luck. Just a follow-up for anyone who's following this thread: The Del Sol has passed the emissions retest. (Yes, you just heard a champagne cork popping.) It cost me $299 to get the Catalytic Converter replaced, which I thought was a decent price (the part alone would have cost me $135 at Kragen Auto Parts). It now passes all emissions tests with flying colors; the 15mph NOX reading dropped to less than 1/3 of what it was before. I had the oil changed too, since I was overdue on that. All in all, I spent about $540 on this Smog Check adventure, for the smog test, problem diagnosis, CAT replacement, and smog retest. :-( But I guess it's worth the price so my neighbors can breathe easier. Thanks again to all of you for your advice, hypotheses, and words of wisdom! David K. > Just a follow-up for anyone who's following this thread: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Thanks again to all of you for your advice, hypotheses, and words of wisdom! if its got the original O2 sensor, it might be worth replacing. id definately do it if you notice any degredation in the next test, in 2 years. my 2005 test was cleaner than my 2003 test, and the only difference was a fresh O2 sensor. |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.