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Car Forum / Honda Cars / February 2006$300 to replace both oxegen sensors
does that sound a little high? The mechanic suggested I replace both even though only one is malfunctioning, is that standard? What year car? How many miles? What symptoms led to this decision? Which one is said to be malfunctioning? Meanwhile you can check the site https://www.automedicsupply.com/ for prices. It has the best I have ever seen for Genunine Honda oxygen sensors. Do not use aftermarket oxygen sensors. > does that sound a little high? The mechanic suggested I replace both > even though only one is malfunctioning, is that standard? so I guess I got ripped off. He charged me $112 and $116 for two sensors and they sell on that site for around $62. I don't even know if he gave me Honda sensors. Can I go back to him and ask for a refund? I already paid him. My car is a 2000 Honda Civic LX Automatic 4 cyl. 77k miles. What led to the decision was that my service engine light was on and he plugged in that machine under my dashboard and it said the O2 sensor malfunctioned. My two cents: I wouldn't say you got ripped off just yet. That site is very unusual. The dealer would have charged you closer to what www.slhonda.com would ask (around $150-$200 for each oxygen sensor, not counting the labor), and probably more. The primary oxygen sensor (upstream of the cat converter) is fairly critical to the car's operation, supplying a signal to the engine computer that ultimately adjusts the fuel-air ratio for different operating conditions. If the primary one died, then it should be replaced sooner rather than later. The secondary oxygen sensor (downstream of the cat converter) is mostly there to monitor the cat converter. I would ask the guy whether he put in genuine Honda sensors or aftermarket ones, for your records. Aftermarket ones tend not to last as long, from my reading. As far as asking for a refund: There's no harm in doing so, but a person has to know what oxygen sensors do to argue the case. You could say reports on the internet are that usually only one fails at a time. Then you could ask him, "So which one really failed"? Then add you're going to be left feeling you got ripped off unless he remedies the situation or proves both really went bad. I'm sure the guy will roll his eyes when he hears this. And he'd be partly justified: After all, you agreed to the work. But he wouldn't be fully justified, because it would seem he wasn't fully honest with you. On the third hand, you're still asking questions /after/ the fact. That doesn't seem completely fair. Furthermore, I don't think it will be easy to get evidence the guy was lying before (assuming he was). Ideally the tech will prove a certain code was set by the engine computer, but this long after the fact? If you do ask the guy for a refund, I wouldn't plan on using his shop in the future. I wouldn't expect any refund. Assuming only one sensor went bad, let him know you won't be using him again and can't recommend his shop to others. Then let him make up his mind. If he doesn't refund a cent, take it as a lesson learned. We all suffer through such lessons with our cars but are usually savvier the next time around. So it wasn't a total loss. I'd also try to find out if the oxygen sensors would be covered under the federal emissions warranty. Google on this for info. I have always found it hard to nail down in specific situations. Dealer service departments are usually pretty savvy on the subject. Check back for another day or so to get others' opinions. > so I guess I got ripped off. He charged me $112 and $116 for two > sensors and they sell on that site for around $62. I don't even know if [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and he plugged in that machine under my dashboard and it said the O2 > sensor malfunctioned. > Check back for another day or so to get others' opinions. i sure hope they replaced *something*. if they were trying to pull a fast one, they COULD have just replaced the primary one that likely went bad, yet charged for both. then again, i paid $220 at the dealer for the primary one, and did it myself in less time than it takes to change a spark plug. my $99 actron scanner was able to tell me *which* O2 sensor went bad, and why. i verified the problem with an ohmmeter. >> Check back for another day or so to get others' opinions. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > my $99 actron scanner was able to tell me *which* O2 sensor went bad, > and why. i verified the problem with an ohmmeter. Replacing the O2 sensors when you have an O2 sensor code is the most commonly done waste of money there is. O2 code just means the O2's out of range. All it takes is a vacuum leak or dirty injectors to cause the same problem. Don't be surprised if the codes come back. If it's a "convertor efficieny" code and your cat's got 100K miles on it, you might want to budget for a cat. Price wise, the price isn't bad. Honda wants $170+ for each. So should I assume I didn't get a Honda O2 sensor? What is the danger of using an aftermarket O2 sensor? It's just not likely to last as long. No big deal, from my reading. If it is a non-Honda sensor, I wouldn't sweat it at this point. Contrary to what the other poster said, IMO replacing the O2 sensor is not at all necessarily a waste of money when you get a code for same. I do agree it's kinda early for an oxygen sensor to die, at 77k miles and six years on your 2000 Civic. It's also possible other things may be behind the code. We just don't know yet. If the code returns, then go to a different shop, preferably an independent import car shop. Tell them the code is back, etc. Try to pay attention to your car for other symptoms. Like poor gas mileage, or running rough. Are you following the maintenance schedule for the car, and using OEM parts for plugs, ignition wires, cap and distributor? Making sure the air filter and fuel filter are changed as recommended? Dumping a bottle of Chevron Techron into the fuel tank a few weeks before the next oil change? (That last one is something a lot of us here do, but whether it make a difference or not is not clear. Our old cars keep running, though!) Elle Original owner, 1991 Civic LX, 174k miles. > So should I assume I didn't get a Honda O2 sensor? What is the danger > of using an aftermarket O2 sensor? > It's just not likely to last as long. No big deal, from my reading. > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> So should I assume I didn't get a Honda O2 sensor? What is the danger >> of using an aftermarket O2 sensor? My point was simply that the O2 sensors are the MOST mis-diagnosed problems you see today. At 70K miles an O2 sensor's on borrowed time, it's slower than it was new and won't let the ECU control the fuel mixture as well as it used to BUT, that doesn't mean it's bad. Most mechanics either don't bother or don't know how to trouble-shoot an O2 sensor code. The code doesn't mean "Bad O2 sensor" it say, the data coming from the O2 is out of range so, you need to look in the helms manual and follow the procedure. Say you have a P0131 code (code 1 on older honda's) which is an primary O2 sensor code. You go to page 11-67 in the manual, follow the procedure. Measure the O2 voltage. If it's out of range what's the first thing you do? Replace the O2 sensor? No, check the fuel pressure/fuel filter. They can cause the sensor to look bad too. There's a whole 'nother procedure for testing the fuel system. Its alot easier to just sell you another O2 sensor and hope that fixes it. > My point was simply that the O2 sensors are the MOST mis-diagnosed > problems you see today. I loathe hyperbole--it's dishonest--and doubt we could quantify what system or part is the most "mis-diagnosed.' > At 70K miles an O2 sensor's on borrowed time, I absolutely dispute this. Mine worked fine for over ten years and 150k miles. 40+ mpg, no problems. > it's slower than it was new and won't let the ECU control the fuel > mixture as well as it used to BUT, that doesn't mean it's bad. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Say you have a P0131 code (code 1 on older honda's) which is an primary > O2 sensor code. I don't think you're exactly wrong in the points you made. For example, if a car seems to be running fine, and the oxygen sensor code comes up, then I think this in particular is a situation where you want to see what, besides a bad O2 sensor, can set off this code. Certainly the codes can mislead the inexperienced. Manuals are pretty good these days and emphasize that a loose electrical connection may set off a code and not at all indicate the main component monitored has failed. Dunno what exactly you mean by "older hondas," but since there are many folks with pre OBD-II cars who post here, from my reading an oxygen sensor not working well will not necessarily set off a code. I think pre-emptive replacement of oxygen sensors is prudent. > You go to page 11-67 in the manual, follow the procedure. That's the factory service manual, which a lot of DIYers do not have. > Measure the O2 voltage. If it's out of range what's the first thing you > do? Replace the O2 sensor? No, check the fuel pressure/fuel filter. They > can cause the sensor to look bad too. There's a whole 'nother procedure > for testing the fuel system. Its alot easier to just sell you another O2 > sensor and hope that fixes it. Again, I definitely agree shops will take people for a ride and one must be careful. I think it's pretty clear that this shop that sold the guy both the front and rear oxygen sensors took advantage. But IMO, in other situations, it's not just about 'ease.' It takes time to do exact diagnoses. That time is expensive. So I think one shouldn't trust one's shop entirely. OTOH, I think many shops make choices that are very much prudent when it comes to "replace" as opposed to "diagnose exactly, repair but don't replace, and risk a comeback or not truly superior performance." > Dunno what exactly you mean by "older hondas," but since there are > many folks with pre OBD-II cars who post here, from my reading an [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > "replace" as opposed to "diagnose exactly, repair but don't replace, > and risk a comeback or not truly superior performance." Just to be clear, I'm only a DIYer myself. I wouldn't work on a Honda without a Helms manual though, in either electronic or paper forms. All other manuals are crap. I spent $260 on a OBD2 scanner so, I pretty much have all the tools I need to keep my honda running. When I get an O2 sensor code, I follow the procedures in the manual because any other method is just 1/2 assed. Older Hondas = non-OBD2. They changed to the P### codes with OBD2 but, there's still a crossover to the OBD1 codes. So, P0131 in a '96 Integra = code 1 in a '95 Integra. You seem to arque that it's ok to charge the customer $300 for new O2 sensors that they might not need because it's easier for the shop to do it than to troubleshoot it. Well, for the shop that's a sweet idea. They get the profit on the sensors and then when the code comes back, they make money AGAIN on trouble-shooting the car the right way. They might have solved the problem by changing out the fuel filter but, then they don't make as much profit do they? As for the life of the O2 sensor. They're like batteries, timing belts and radiators. They degrade with time. The "cross counts" slow down and they do a worse job telling the ECU what the engine's doing as time goes on. Your car is what, pre-OBD1? That means things were pretty lax when it came to emissions. If you'd changed it at 80k miles instead of 150, you might have more than paid for the new sensor with fuel savings. Current car's in the US are warrented for 8 years/80K miles before the need emissions service. To me, that means anything over 80K miles is borrowed time. They used to recommend replacing the O2 sensor every 50K miles for maximum fuel economy. > You seem to arque that it's ok to charge the customer $300 for new O2 > sensors that they might not need because it's easier for the shop to do > it than to troubleshoot it. No, at least twice now I've said otherwise. We don't agree on everything. I don't want to waste newsgroup space with more repetition. "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in news:Z%6If.15071 $rH5.12931@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net: > No, at least twice now I've said otherwise. > > We don't agree on everything. I don't want to waste newsgroup space with > more repetition. No problem. Haha space! Some of my customers are downloading 10-20 gigs a DAY from the newsgroups. I don't think our little comments matter much. Buddy of mine was telling me he doesn't watch TV any more. He just downloads all his episodes in HDTV off Usenet. >>> Check back for another day or so to get others' opinions. >> i sure hope they replaced *something*. if they were trying to pull a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > commonly done waste of money there is. O2 code just means the O2's out > of range. mine said "heater circuit malfunction" or something like that. an ohmmeter verified it was open, reading 0 ohms. >> Replacing the O2 sensors when you have an O2 sensor code is the most >> commonly done waste of money there is. O2 code just means the O2's out >> of range. > > mine said "heater circuit malfunction" or something like that. an > ohmmeter verified it was open, reading 0 ohms. Well they do go bad. I had that code once and the problem was I'd yanked on the wiring while working on the exhaust and actually pulled a wire loose from the O2 sensor connector. Wonder how effective they are without a heater? You know the old one wire sensors didn't have heaters. They depended on the exhaust to heat them which is why they were often placed so close to the exhaust ports. > >> Replacing the O2 sensors when you have an O2 sensor code is the most > >> commonly done waste of money there is. O2 code just means the O2's out [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > sensors didn't have heaters. They depended on the exhaust to heat them > which is why they were often placed so close to the exhaust ports. Without the heater, the zirconia O2 sensor is useless at startup, and results in the engine running rich. That's bad for the catalytic converter, and the environment. The ULEVs have to perform well at all times, not just after they have "warmed up". --Gene >> >> Replacing the O2 sensors when you have an O2 sensor code is the >> >> most commonly done waste of money there is. O2 code just means the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > --Gene I was wondering if modern O2 sensor placement even lets them get hot enough to light off. My O2 (like the integra and civic EX/SI) is placed right in front of the cat below and behind the motor. That's pretty far from the exhaust ports. Wonder if it ever gets to effective temperature? Heater code means replace the sensor. Now the rule of thumb at our shop (and many others) is you can replace the pre cat sensor, but if you replace the post cat sensor; do the pre cat also. The reason is the car has adjusted to the switching rate and comparison between the two sensors, and putting a fresh one post cat may cause a cat efficiency code to come up later.  SignatureStephen W. Hansen ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance ASE Undercar Specialist http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troubleshooting/l/bl_obd_main.htm http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/ >>>> Check back for another day or so to get others' opinions. >>> i sure hope they replaced *something*. if they were trying to pull a [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > mine said "heater circuit malfunction" or something like that. an ohmmeter > verified it was open, reading 0 ohms. |
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