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Car Forum / Honda Cars / February 2006Advice on 94 Honda Accord LX
I am a new to the "honda owner family." I bought a used Honda Accord LX with 165,000 miles on it two months ago. I have since noticed, unfortunately, that it is burning about one quart of oil between every time I fill up with gas. A mechanic told me it was probably an old valve that had gone bad. He did not quote me a price for repair, but I can imagine it will be expensive. What do you all think? With my Accord being 12 years old and having 165,000 miles, would it be worth it to get the valve replaced just to avoid the nuisance and potential hazard? ? does the car have a miss to it, or blue smoke coming out the exhaust? what type of honda(model) and engine size?  Signaturemobilemike http://www.automotiveforums.com > I am a new to the "honda owner family." I bought a used Honda Accord > LX with 165,000 miles on it two months ago. I have since noticed, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > it to get the valve replaced just to avoid the nuisance and potential > hazard? One thing to try is to replace the PCV valve. If they stick open, they'll suck oil in a way that's indistinguishable from rings or valve seals. Essentially, you bought a worn out car. Every mile you put on it is a miracle and I'd just be happy it still goes. I'd probably not spend anything more then normal maintainance on it and when it dies, have someone haul it off to the junk yard. Mechanic probably told you you needed "valve seals" and not a valve though he might be recommending you get the head done which reconditions the valves and replaces the seals. I'd just keep a case of oil in the trunk and add a quart every fill up. If it's not leaking, it's either valve seals or piston rings. If it's the rings, then the engine's really worn out. While Honda engines can last forever (almost), if some previous owner wasn't good about changing the oil, your engine might have excessive wear. > Essentially, you bought a worn out car. Every mile you put on it is a > miracle and I'd just be happy it still goes. I'd probably not spend > anything more then normal maintainance on it and when it dies, have > someone > haul it off to the junk yard. What are you talking about? I have the same '94 model with over 230 K miles and the car runs almost like when it was new and only burns about half qt of oil between two oil changes (at 3,750 ml intervals.) I wouldn't be surprised if I got to half million miles with it. Rudy "R. P." <r_pol12gar@hotmail.com> wrote in news:sZOdnaRmWtywOWLeRVn- vw@comcast.com: >> haul it off to the junk yard. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Rudy Yeah, I knew some of you would come out of the woodwork. Sure, your car's got 230K miles on it. It's a testament to your good maintainance. Yet, at about 100K miles all car's start down the bell curve to junk status. Would you put a motor into a car that's got 165K miles on it or would you just feed it oil? Blue book on this 94 accord with 165K miles is about $2800 US. Trade-in's value's $1300-1600 (higher than I expected, testament to honda I guess) Any major work could easily cost more than the car's worth. Not trying to ruffle feathers. The only point I'm making is that it's sometimes not worth throwing money into an old car. For someone who works on cars, it could be the perfect car. If you're at the mercy of mechanics, though you probably want to watch the value versus cost. > Yeah, I knew some of you would come out of the woodwork. Sure, your > car's [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > mechanics, > though you probably want to watch the value versus cost. Actually, I agree with you to a point. I, indeed, spent a lot of money on maintenance after about 100K but mostly I blame myself for it because I insisted on having it done by Honda dealer service departments which charged high fees, yet often left my car worse off after a regular maintenance trip than before. After a while, however, I wised up and found an independent shop that costs me much less and the car also runs better after the service visits. Rudy > Yeah, I knew some of you would come out of the woodwork. Sure, your car's > got 230K miles on it. It's a testament to your good maintainance. Yet, at > about 100K miles all car's start down the bell curve to junk status. Would > you put a motor into a car that's got 165K miles on it or would you just > feed it oil? if its otherwise clean, pristine, and troublefree? id get an imported japanese engine, especially if its an EX. > Blue book on this 94 accord with 165K miles is about $2800 > US. Trade-in's value's $1300-1600 (higher than I expected, testament to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > on cars, it could be the perfect car. If you're at the mercy of mechanics, > though you probably want to watch the value versus cost. its always cheaper to fix the car or replace the engine, compared to new car payments. all depends on having an honest independant mechanic. >> Not trying to ruffle feathers. The only point I'm making is that it's >> sometimes not worth throwing money into an old car. For someone who [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > new car payments. all depends on having an honest independant > mechanic. The problem with a really high mileage car is that once you fix one thing, you're just waiting for the next thing to break. So, today you swap out the motor and tomorrow you need front wheel bearings and the day after it's new fuel pump/main relay time. There's a point of diminishing returns where you'd be better off buying a newer used car than keeping the old clunker. That's why high mileage = reduced value. It's all built into the reliabilty curve, everything manufactured follows that curve. The older the car, the more parts are near the end of their life. > its always cheaper to fix the car or replace the engine, compared to > new car payments. all depends on having an honest independant > mechanic. That was exactly my thinking, too. It would be nice to have a new car again, but then when I think of those car payments that are approaching mortgage payments of a few years ago, I stick to my old clunker that doesn't just run well, but it is also clean and rust free. After a car wash it almost looks like a new car. JP "R. P." <r_pol12gar@hotmail.com> wrote in news:TtqdnW0aAqBGvZzZRVn- iA@comcast.com: > That was exactly my thinking, too. It would be nice to have a new car > again, but then when I think of those car payments that are approaching [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > JP It depends on who you are. I drive around with a bag full of tools in my car and can pretty much handle any roadside repairs I need to make. My wife on the other hand, I'd never let her drive around in a clunker. She gets the new cars every couple years and I drive around in my toys. What's money for if not to make your life pleasent to live? I don't resent spending money any more, as long as I enjoy what I get for it. >> Essentially, you bought a worn out car. Every mile you put on it is a >> miracle and I'd just be happy it still goes. I'd probably not spend [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > half qt of oil between two oil changes (at 3,750 ml intervals.) I > wouldn't be surprised if I got to half million miles with it. id seriously doubt the OP's accord got 3750 mile oil changes, and thats why its so worn out at 160k miles. How much diagnostics actually went into identifying the valve as the problem? Does the engine seem to lack power or otherwise sound odd? I know that may be hard to assess with a new used car, but give it a shot. Are you seeing oil drips beneath the car when it sits awhile? I would first do a complete tuneup (genuine Honda parts only for plugs, ignition wires, distributor cap and rotor, and PCV valve); new air filter and fuel filter. Drain and fill with genuine Honda coolant or the orange Havoline Dexcool the cooling system. Purge properly of air. Check and adjust as needed the ignition timing. That's around $200 of parts and labor. Do not go cheap on the parts: Buy OEM (= genuine Honda) as directed above. This $200 is an investment. These items need to be done every few years anyway. See http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id11.html for an overview of the tuneup above. I would then monitor the oil level. Make sure it's not leaking from the valve cover or into the spark plug tubes: Check the exterior of the engine right beneath the valve cover; check the spark plug tubes once a week for the immediate future. Report on what you see. There are certain seals that certainly may need replacement for a car this old. Look for oil drips on the floor beneath the car, and try to identify from where they are coming. A bad PCV valve will cause excessive oil consumption. The good news is it's only about a $20 part and most people can change it out themselves within five minutes (an hour if you're new to this). Also, start monitoring the gas consumption. Measure mileage between fillups, divide gallons at each fillup with miles driven. Report back after four or so fillups. Elle Original owner, 1991 Civic LX, 174k miles. Runs like a top. 40 mpg most of the year. >I am a new to the "honda owner family." I bought a used Honda Accord > LX with 165,000 miles on it two months ago. I have since noticed, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > it to get the valve replaced just to avoid the nuisance and potential > hazard? A well maintained honda engine should easily last 250K - again assuming no abuse and reasonable maintenance. If it is not leaking oil where you park it - PCV valve is #1 suspect. a quart every 3-400 leak would have oil all over the engine and where you park. My current 97 accord I4 has 194 K does not burn any oil - leaks a small bit - maybe a 1/2 pint in 4K. Also look at the oil on the dip stick - is it totally black and sticky - bet the former owner was a pig and has not changed the oil for a long time. > How much diagnostics actually went into identifying the valve as the > problem? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Are you seeing oil drips beneath the car when it sits awhile? When the car is started after sitting a while, it does emit a lot of smoke. The smoke does have a blueish tint, but I would say it is more gray than blue. Other than this, no, there are no leaks, and the valve cover does not significantly leak, althogh there is a trace amount of oil on it. I personally think that the car has all the power it should for being its age. It still climbs hills beautifully and never overheats. The heater and air conditioning work great. I have never noticed leaking on the ground where I have parked it. All the above information was all that went into the original diagnostic about maybe having a bad valve or valve seal. I have been monitoring gas consumption since I bought the car. I drive probably 90% of the time on the highway (about 400 to 450 miles each week) and I have averaged 32 to 34 mpg. Now that you know more about the situation and the distinct burning only at cold start-up, what do you still think? Is it the PCV valve? I hope so, because that sounds like the easiest and cheapest fix. > Now that you know more about the situation and the distinct burning > only at cold start-up, what do you still think? Is it the PCV valve? > I hope so, because that sounds like the easiest and cheapest fix. The cold startup smoke sounds like valve seals. The reason there won't be any smoke after the engine's hot is the cat burns off the smoke. That's why you don't see many smoky vehicles these days. It could also be worn valve guides (the part the valve rides in). It might be worth pulling the valve cover and making sure the oil drainback holes are clear. If oil collects on top of the head because the drainback passages are clogged, that could make the seal problem worse. Even good valve seals will have drainage if they're immersed in oil. With the valve cover off you can get a handle on how well maintained the engine was too. If the oil changes were infrequent, you'll often see sludge buildup. What do the spark plugs look like? They'll tell you if you're burning oil too. I'd switch the PCV valve as a matter of course. It's a disposible tune up item anyway like plugs and wires. > Elle wrote: >> How much diagnostics actually went into identifying the valve as the [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Now that you know more about the situation and the distinct burning > only at cold start-up, what do you still think? Is it the PCV valve? With this info, I would not bet on it being the PCV valve. This valve normally routes gases in the (oil) crankcase to the air intake. If its malfunctioning, what it can cause is overpressurization of the crankcase, forcing oil past various seals, like the oil pan seal, distributor shaft seal, or front crankshaft seal. If you're not seeing oil on the ground or a really greasy engine exterior, I'd rule the PCV valve out. You can replace it (or just clean it out with a spray can of carburetor cleaner, easily found at Autozone and probably Wal-Mart), simply because it's an old car, it's probably due (per routine maintenance), and it's not expensive, but I don't think it's going to fix the oil consumption problems. One final check: Are the spark plug tubes filling with oil? If not, then whether it's a valve or worn rings or something else is now beyond my expertise. I'd be googling and checking back here to gather other's input. I think the smoke is a symptom of something getting into the cylinders that is not supposed to... Good luck. Updates are welcome. > With this info, I would not bet on it being the PCV valve. This valve > normally routes gases in the (oil) crankcase to the air intake. If its > malfunctioning, what it can cause is overpressurization of the crankcase, > forcing oil past various seals, like the oil pan seal, distributor shaft > seal, or front crankshaft seal. If you're not seeing oil on the ground or a > really greasy engine exterior, I'd rule the PCV valve out. <SNIP> -------------------- Sorry, Elle, gotta disagree with you on this one. If the spring in the PCV rusts and snaps, it will allow a free flow (rather than 'metered' flow) of oil vapor in the crankcase to be sucked into the intake, which means the engine can be burning the oil invisibly. Of course the CAT will suffer, and Oxygen sensors can get wrecked too. 'Curly' > Elle wrote: >> With this info, I would not bet on it being the PCV valve. This valve [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > means the engine can be burning the oil invisibly. Of course the CAT > will suffer, and Oxygen sensors can get wrecked too. I'm glad you posted. I was trying to remember whether the reason behind high oil consumption with a failed/failing PCV valve was oil vapor in the crankcase being sucked into the air intake at an extraordinary rate and so burned, or whether it was the high crankcase pressure pushing the oil out the seals. Another poster contended what you said, as well. I suppose a google check would also support this point. So since I know Curly is a reputable regular here, and the other guy also said it, I agree: Try changing the PCV valve. The Bhudda poster can also do a little benchmark test beforehand: With the car at idle, pinch shut the tube to the PCV valve. Listen for a click. It should happen within 30 seconds. No click, definitely replace the valve. Click, and the valve may or may not need replacement. If the age is unknown, replace it. Use only a genuine Honda (= OEM) PCV valve. See www.slhonda.com (under the parts section, engine, breather tube) for good OEM prices; around $19 if one includes shipping. One of my dealers had a pretty fair price for PCV valves, too, so call locally as well. > > Sorry, Elle, gotta disagree with you on this one. If the spring in the > > PCV rusts and snaps, it will allow a free flow (rather than 'metered' > > flow) of oil vapor in the crankcase to be sucked into the intake, which > > means the engine can be burning the oil invisibly. Of course the CAT > > will suffer, and Oxygen sensors can get wrecked too. ----------------------- > I'm glad you posted. I was trying to remember whether the reason behind high > oil consumption with a failed/failing PCV valve was oil vapor in the > crankcase being sucked into the air intake at an extraordinary rate and so > burned, or whether it was the high crankcase pressure pushing the oil out > the seals. Another poster contended what you said, as well. I suppose a > google check would also support this point. ------------------ Sorry, Elle, I should have given you points for being HALF-RIGHT. The PCV valve can get PLUGGED (which is what you described about the pressure increase / leaking seals) or it can go OPEN, which sucks oil / fouls plugs / wrecks CAT. Stuck open can also shoot the mileage to HECK because the computer compensates by altering timing / richness when it won't idle correctly. Some would argue it can screw up your emission tests too. :-) We dont' have that here so I'm no expert (about anything, actually :-) ) 'Curly' > The > PCV valve can get PLUGGED (which is what you described about the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > We dont' have that here so I'm no expert (about anything, actually :-) ) Nice try, but I'm calling them like I see them. You /are/ one of the gurus here. Good explanation. Wouldn't it be nice if this fixed this guy's 94 Accord as well? It might. |
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