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Car Forum / Honda Cars / April 2006Don't solder Oxygen sensor Wire????
I've read a mechanic book. It says on Oxygen Sensor page that do not solder Oxygen sensor wire because it might cause misleading the voltage. I'm kind of doubt if soldered wire would make different voltage reading from unsoldered wire. How can a soldered wire and unsoldered wire make different voltage reading? Does anyone ever heard of this or know this is true or false? > I've read a mechanic book. It says on Oxygen Sensor page that > do not solder Oxygen sensor wire because it might cause [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > voltage reading? Does anyone ever heard of this or know this is true or > false? Yes, this is called the galvanic effect and is the basis of how thermocouples are made. Dissimilar metals have a contact potential that varies with temperature. If the solder is between the two wires, any small temperature difference will create a voltage across the joint, hence giving a bad reading. You got good advice. Dave > I've read a mechanic book. It says on Oxygen Sensor page that > do not solder Oxygen sensor wire because it might cause [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > voltage reading? Does anyone ever heard of this or know this is true or > false? -------------------------- If you're talking about cutting off the connector half-way from the sensor, resoldering and heat-shrinking the joints, why not? No salt can penetrate, like it would on a 'crimp' style. 'Curly' >> I've read a mechanic book. It says on Oxygen Sensor page that >> do not solder Oxygen sensor wire because it might cause [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > sensor, resoldering and heat-shrinking the joints, why not? No salt can > penetrate, like it would on a 'crimp' style. My mechanic says soldering is the *only* way to go, combined with a good heat-shrink tubing seal. In fact, he says a crimp connection is far more likely to affect voltage over time than a soldered connection, because a crimped connection will attract far more moisture -- and be affected far more by vibration -- than a soldered connection.  SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ Makes sense. Is there not a special kind of solder for situations like this? There are many different types. >>> I've read a mechanic book. It says on Oxygen Sensor page that >>> do not solder Oxygen sensor wire because it might cause [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >attract far more moisture -- and be affected far more by vibration -- than >a soldered connection. >>>I've read a mechanic book. It says on Oxygen Sensor page that >>>do not solder Oxygen sensor wire because it might cause [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > My mechanic says soldering is the *only* way to go, combined with a good > heat-shrink tubing seal. heat shrink helps mitigate the negative impact soldering has on joints that are subject to vibration, but the solder gives up sooner or later. same with anything that gets heated. look at the main relay if you need proof! your mechanic needs to pay attention to the fact that, crimp is oem, tested and used exclusively in aerospace because of superior jointing characteristics, and correct for this application. > In fact, he says a crimp connection is far more likely to affect voltage > over time than a soldered connection, because a crimped connection will > attract far more moisture he's talking garbage. if there's a proper high conductivity connection, there's no voltage difference, regardless of connector. the only way you can have voltage difference is if the connection is interrupted and there's chemistry going on, but that connection won't conduct a decent current load. > -- and be affected far more by vibration -- than > a soldered connection. check under the hood. the earth leads that go from the motor to the chassis, they're crimped, "open" strand, and last virtually forever. if you want to test this, replace your own with a lead that has soldered connectors - it'll be a fun experiment. i've done this before so know the result, but it would be good to see someone else try it. <snip> >> My mechanic says soldering is the *only* way to go, combined with a >> good heat-shrink tubing seal. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > tested and used exclusively in aerospace because of superior jointing > characteristics, and correct for this application. He was actually referring to crimps performed by mechanics, not OEM crimps, with which he has no problem. >> In fact, he says a crimp connection is far more likely to affect >> voltage over time than a soldered connection, because a crimped >> connection will attract far more moisture > > he's talking garbage. if there's a proper high conductivity > connection, And that was his point. Too much variability in a home or garage connection. > there's no voltage difference, regardless of connector. > the only way you can have voltage difference is if the connection is > interrupted and there's chemistry going on, but that connection won't > conduct a decent current load. I'm sure you're right, but I think he has a point. I've seen some pretty crappy crimped connections made by working mechanics. Either the wires were dirty, the crimp was too tight, or something else was done poorly. And when the voltage is less than one (rather than being battery voltage), I can see the probability of errors being higher with a poor connection. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > He was actually referring to crimps performed by mechanics, not OEM crimps, > with which he has no problem. i kind of agree, but soldering is no guaranty of quality /and/ increases propensity to fail due to known issues. so it's back to crimps and learning how to do it properly, much like any other job. >>>In fact, he says a crimp connection is far more likely to affect >>>voltage over time than a soldered connection, because a crimped [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > crappy crimped connections made by working mechanics. Either the wires were > dirty, the crimp was too tight, or something else was done poorly. he has a point about poor workmanship, but that applies across the board. > And when the voltage is less than one (rather than being battery voltage), > I can see the probability of errors being higher with a poor connection. Just make sure that you have very good copper-to-copper contact, and then solder. You won't have a dissimilar metal in the way at that point, but the solder will chemically and mechanically protect the joint. This is the essence of good soldering technique. The book is "right," in that some people (mechanics) just are not electronic techs, and don't really appreciate the correct way to solder a joint. > Just make sure that you have very good copper-to-copper contact, and > then solder. You won't have a dissimilar metal in the way at that > point, but the solder will chemically and mechanically protect the > joint. This is the essence of good soldering technique. The book is > "right," in that some people (mechanics) just are not electronic techs, > and don't really appreciate the correct way to solder a joint. but if you read the book further, you'll learn that solder is /NOT/ used where high thermal cycling is involved, or where vibration is involved. ask anyone in the aerospace industry - it's all crimp joints in these applications to ensure reliability. look at your oem honda connections for that matter. > but if you read the book further, you'll learn that solder is /NOT/ used > where high thermal cycling is involved, or where vibration is involved. > ask anyone in the aerospace industry - it's all crimp joints in these > applications to ensure reliability. look at your oem honda connections > for that matter. True, the crimp joints will outlast the insulation on the wires in some applications... I'm assuming that the wire to be soldered isn't in an extreme heat situation, like right next to the O2 sensor. Also, she should keep her altitude below 30,000 feet. ; > ) jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:O-- dnRahwbCPlJfZnZ2dnUVZ_tidnZ2d@speakeasy.net: >> Just make sure that you have very good copper-to-copper contact, and >> then solder. You won't have a dissimilar metal in the way at that [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > applications to ensure reliability. look at your oem honda connections > for that matter. But ALL my relays are soldered...? And if this is the case, why hasn't Honda found a different way to produce the Main Relay so it won't fail the way it does? SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:O-- > dnRahwbCPlJfZnZ2dnUVZ_tidnZ2d@speakeasy.net: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > And if this is the case, why hasn't Honda found a different way to produce > the Main Relay so it won't fail the way it does? mitsuba, the relay manufacturer, probably didn't anticipate the longevity of the rest of the car! of course it's possible to make a more durable relay, but how much do you want to pay? > I've read a mechanic book. It says on Oxygen Sensor page that > do not solder Oxygen sensor wire because it might cause [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > voltage reading? Does anyone ever heard of this or know this is true or > false? I checked some online replacement guides. One sensor has stainless steel wires so it is not compatible with standard electronics solder. Others recommend soldering. Stainless steel soldering requires a very powerful flux like phosphoric acid. > steel wires so it is not compatible with standard electronics solder. > Others recommend soldering. > Stainless steel soldering requires a very powerful flux like phosphoric > acid. Use silver solder and flux. Requires high heat. A BernzOmatic MAPP gas torch will do the trick. nb >>steel wires so it is not compatible with standard electronics solder. >>Others recommend soldering. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > nb how long do you want this to last? that kind of flux corrodes and eats the joint, even if you /think/ it's clean. it's /not/ used in electrical work. > I've read a mechanic book. It says on Oxygen Sensor page that > do not solder Oxygen sensor wire because it might cause [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > voltage reading? Does anyone ever heard of this or know this is true or > false? ================================================= Here's a startling factoid about how O2 sensors work . . . . Might have a lot to say about how we should splice / insulate them. No SILICONE, (nor silicone grease), and maybe no heat shrink. Borrowed from http://www.autotap.com/articles/Understanding_Oxygen_Sensors.html ----------------------------- Older style oxygen sensors actually have a small hole in the body shell so air can enter the sensor, but newer style O2 sensors "breathe" through their wire connectors and have no vent hole. It's hard to believe, but the tiny amount of space between the insulation and wire provides enough room for air to seep into the sensor (for this reason, grease should never be used on O2 sensor connectors because it can block the flow of air). Venting the sensor through the wires rather than with a hole in the body reduces the risk of dirt or water contamination that could foul the sensor from the inside and cause it to fail. The difference in oxygen levels between the exhaust and outside air within the sensor causes voltage to flow through the ceramic bulb. The greater the difference, the higher the voltage reading. 'Curly' > Borrowed from > http://www.autotap.com/articles/Understanding_Oxygen_Sensors.html [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > the sensor causes voltage to flow through the ceramic bulb. The greater > the difference, the higher the voltage reading. I think this refers to the portion of the wire that's right at the sensor body. I'm not sure it would make much difference if you had a piece of heat-shrink a foot away from the sensor. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > > Borrowed from > > http://www.autotap.com/articles/Understanding_Oxygen_Sensors.html [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > body. I'm not sure it would make much difference if you had a piece of > heat-shrink a foot away from the sensor. ============================== Nope, because it gets it's air way up higher, where the connector is. Water would run DOWN the wire and contaminate the sensor, if it breathed from the bottom end. Now I know to never put SILICONE anti-corrosion paste in an O2 sensor connector for that reason. I love that stuff, and surely would have used it if I hadn't read this article. :-) 'Curly' >>> Borrowed from >>> http://www.autotap.com/articles/Understanding_Oxygen_Sensors.html [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > 'Curly' im finding this VERY hard to believe. i can understand air getting in the gap between the body and the wire. in fact, that would explain how my O2 sensor crapped out, with 46k miles on it, less than a week after pressure washing the engine. i always THOUGHT that was a contributing factor. (side note- YES! i pressure wash my engine! probably once a year, avoiding the dist cap, electrical connections, etc. i usually just hit up the inner fenders quickly, the inner top of the hood, blow the leaves out the A/C trough, and go to town on the head, intake, block, tranny, and lower pieces. it never gets that dirty, and it never STAYS dirty. my engine bay looks just about as new as the day i bought the car 8 years ago. i am aware of the potential hazards. im probably going to add the O2 sensor to the list of "avoid full pressure" areas to clean. ) i can NOT understand how air would get through the stranded wire covered with a vinyl coating. it doesnt appear to be a special wire... just regular wire thats stranded and coated with the outer cover. its not magikal wire. if anyone has a link to a MANUFACTURER site that says the wire "breathes", ill eat my words. somehow. > (side note- > > YES! i pressure wash my engin My oxygen sensor gets pressure washed regularly. Not on purpose, but as a consequence of normal driving. It's located immediately behind the rad, so when I drive in heavy rain in heavy traffic (like today), it gets absolutely blasted with water, for an hour at a time. Never a problem. <snip> > i can NOT understand how air would get through the stranded wire > covered with a vinyl coating. It can and does. Very little molecular transfer is required for proper operation. > it doesnt appear to be a special wire... > just regular wire thats stranded and coated with the outer cover. its > not magikal wire. > > if anyone has a link to a MANUFACTURER site that says the wire > "breathes", ill eat my words. somehow. Curly, Google the terms: pvc oxygen permeability SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> if anyone has a link to a MANUFACTURER site that says the wire >> "breathes", ill eat my words. somehow. > > Curly, Google the terms: > pvc oxygen permeability yes. PVC membranes, plastic meat wrap, and healthcare products. your point? >>> if anyone has a link to a MANUFACTURER site that says the wire >>> "breathes", ill eat my words. somehow. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > yes. PVC membranes, plastic meat wrap, and healthcare products. your > point? That vinyl *can* be formulated to be oxygen-permeable. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>>> if anyone has a link to a MANUFACTURER site that says the wire >>>> "breathes", ill eat my words. somehow. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > That vinyl *can* be formulated to be oxygen-permeable. the membranes tend to be extremely thin, like meat wrap. one .pdf file i read from bosch.com said the outside O2 comes through "the sensor body or the wire" i could understand how some unwanted water on a cold engine could do what it did to mine... short out the primary heater circuit so it read 0 ohms. >> I think this refers to the portion of the wire that's right at the >> sensor body. I'm not sure it would make much difference if you had a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Water would run DOWN the wire and contaminate the sensor, if it > breathed from the bottom end. Curly, how hot does an oxygen sensor run? Think, now... SignatureTeGGeR® > > I've read a mechanic book. It says on Oxygen Sensor page that > > do not solder Oxygen sensor wire because it might cause [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > 'Curly' It's not through the individual wires. It's the gaps between the wires in the harness. Older sensors had the wires exiting through a tight rubber seal. Newer sensors have the wires exiting from a loosely crimped sleeve. |
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