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Car Forum / Honda Cars / August 2006Is the mechanic responsible?
So heres the story: I was driving my 91 civic back from work when my check oil light came on. I stopped at a gas station, got new oil, and went on my way. When I was about 20 minutes away from my house (and 30 away from a gas station), my check oil light started to flicker on and off. Then my car started to shake and bang it was dead. I got it towed to a mechanic, who said that the last guy to change my oil had replaced my drain plug incorrectly. I had my oil changed only a month ago. Now my motor and radiator are shot. My car only has 100K on it. The mechanic says that it is the responsibility of the guys that changed the oil, and that they owe me a new motor. They say no. A: Is it possible to prove responsibility? B: What should my course of action be? DND, In my opinion, you don't have enough evidence to make a case. First, the shop that did the oil change could say something could have happened in the few weeks between the oil change and the loss of oil pressure, like your car hit a high spot. And maybe something did happen. Can you really say otherwise? Second, that oil pressure light is there for a reason. Car owners are supposed to know to pull over and stop the engine immediately when it comes on. Granted maybe the shop that did the oil change did mess up. But it doesn't sound to me like there's any way to prove it. Plus, they could also assert that you monkeyed with the drain plug so this would happen and you'd get a new engine out of it. Lastly, the cost of legal fees to really argue this likely would exceed the cost of an engine, with little guarantee of a settlment or victory. I would chalk this up to a lesson in how to respond to the low oil pressure light. Sorry about your misfortune. > So heres the story: I was driving my 91 civic back from > work when my [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > A: Is it possible to prove responsibility? > B: What should my course of action be? > DND, > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > A: Is it possible to prove responsibility? > > B: What should my course of action be? I agree with you. Lots of money would be wasted on lawyers and court costs. You may in up losing the case but would still have to pay your lawyer and court costs. However, I agree that the gas station mechanic caused the problem. The mechanic would claim that he replaced the drain plug correctly and that you or someone else must have installed it incorrectly after you left the gas station. Jason  SignatureNEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people. > So heres the story: I was driving my 91 civic back from work when my > check oil light came on. I stopped at a gas station, got new oil, and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > A: Is it possible to prove responsibility? > B: What should my course of action be? Speak with a lawyer and see what evidence your case has...If they say no case then you have no case... try posting in alk.uk.law. <- if you are from the UK of course... Dom You lost 4 quarts (US) in one month? Did you notice an oil slick under the car? Or did the plug back out and you lost all the oil at once? > So heres the story: I was driving my 91 civic back from work when my > check oil light came on. I stopped at a gas station, got new oil, and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > A: Is it possible to prove responsibility? > B: What should my course of action be? Did you have a bad oil leak because of the incorrectly installed drain plug? That mechanic had to been quite incompetent or careless. I would take the car to the shop again. If they say no, take them to Judge Judy. > So heres the story: I was driving my 91 civic back from work when my > check oil light came on. I stopped at a gas station, got new oil, and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > A: Is it possible to prove responsibility? maybe. maybe not. did you check the car when you got it back from the oil change? does the drain plug show evidence of being struck with a rock or anything? and how come you didn't notice the leakage prior to failure? the car would have stunk of oil splash burning on the exhaust. > B: What should my course of action be? if you really think you have a case and it wasn't rock damage or your negligence, small claims court. here in california, i believe that's limited to $5000, but that amount should cover entire vehicle replacement cost for a 91 civic. if you can back up your case, chances are, the oil change monkeys will offer to settle as soon as they get their summons. make sure you have 3 separate repair quotes to back up your claim amount and that you have records of your attempts to have them remedy the situation. > So heres the story: I was driving my 91 civic back from work when my > check oil light came on. I stopped at a gas station, got new oil, and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I got it towed to a mechanic, who said that the last guy to change > my oil had replaced my drain plug incorrectly. See, that wouldn't happen if that last guy was /you/. In the future, change your own oil! Think about the oil change guys and what they do for a living, and how little intellect and education that requires. They drain and refill what is essentially a large, metallic container---a glorified keg---and replace two simple parts that screw off and screw on. That's their brilliant career. (And these are grown up men, remember!) You are trusting these people to do it right. If you changed your own oil, you'd probably understand a little bit more about it. So if that oil light went on, you'd instinctively be inclined to pull over and take a look to see whether something is wrong with the drain plug (like, is it there!), or whether there are leaks around the oil filter or other places. You'd know where these things are since you messed with them yourself. Oil lights have to be taken very seriously; you don't just add oil and cross your fingers. If the previous oil disappeared somewhere, whatever new oil you add will go the same way, unless you can be certain that it's a slow leak. An engine will die very quickly without oil. It's amazing yours lasted that long. If your drain plug is gone, the stranded can be rescued by bringing a new drain plug to it, along with a gallon of new oil. Plug it, fill it, and the ordeal is over. > I had my oil changed > only a month ago. Now my motor and radiator are shot. My car only has > 100K on it. > The mechanic says that it is the responsibility of the guys that > changed the oil, and that they owe me a new motor. They say no. (Was this Jiffy Lube by any chance? ;) Do a web search for Jiffy Lube and all the cars they destroyed, while claiming no responsibility). To be fair, this shop doesn't owe you a /new/ motor, just the value of a motor in the same condition: a 91 Civic engine with 100K on it, plus the labor of an engine swap. You can put a dollar figure on that, with interest. > A: Is it possible to prove responsibility? > B: What should my course of action be? You begin by writing a three-part letter to the management of that oil change place. The first part says what went wrong, giving all the details. The second part says what you want, and the third part says what action you will take if you don't get what you want by such and such date. That action would be taking them to court (seeking an even greater settlement than what your letter asks for: incentive to settle out of court!) You could add the threat of going after further damages on that. Costs you incurred due to not having a car. Lost income. I.e. pay me the value of the engine now, or I will go after more. IANAL, but I think that all you need court wise is the receipt for the oil change and the testimony of your mechanic ("expert witness") that it was an incorrectly installed plug. Record the odometer readings too, which provide evidence that that must indeed have been the last oil change due to the small number of miles driven since. I.e. if you drove 500 miles since that oil change, you would have had no reason to mess with your engine lubrication. An oil change requires the removal of a drain plug and the installation of a new one, so it cannot be claimed that it's a part they did not touch, or are not responsible for. > DND85@aol.com wrote: >> So heres the story: I was driving my 91 civic back from [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > You are > trusting these people to do it right. Nice. This shows how much education you have. The probability is high that the guy changing the oil is in training for technician certification. As for their "brilliant career" choice, most technicians I've met are as smart or smarter than doctors or lawyers. I write this as a multi-degreed, multi-licensed, extensively experienced engineer who still can't perform a clutch job. > You begin by writing a three-part letter to the management > of that oil [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > witness") that > it was an incorrectly installed plug. This is not a preponderance of evidence that shows the shop did the oil change wrong. From all we at the group know, this guy /is/ trying to pull a fast one and lining up support from Usenet to do so. Though I doubt it, because he admits freely he doesn't know what the oil pressure warning light means. Furthermore, since he /should/ know this, then if I were on the jury, I couldn't give him a victory. A fast one I am not trying to pull, because In my expirience car trouble is anything but fast. I have work that I'm missing, and school to pay for. This is definitly something I did not want to happen. I don't want a new motor, I just want my car to be like it was, which was pretty good. Prior to yesterday, I did not notice anything was wrong with the car. It did not smoke or smell like burning oil. I havent been in an accident or bottomed out before or since the oil change. The drain plug was actually missing when it got towed to the shop. The mechanic believes it fell out because it was threaded incorrectly. I plan on having a second mechanic look at it as well. > The mechanic believes it fell out because it was threaded incorrectly. > I plan on having a second mechanic look at it as well. A screw that is "threaded incorrectly" is one that has been "cross threaded". This means the initial thread engagement was not aligned properly, but engaged enough to start and screw forward at an incorrect angle and literally forge new threads as it turns. This is easily detected by revealing two different sets of threads in your oil pan hole. You should be able to see this. Unless the threads were completly "stripped" ...the thread peaks literally sheared off from overtightening (another possibility)... a cross threaded screw is usually a jammed fit and not likely to come unscrewed. A correctly screwed thread that was not properly tightened is more likely to come undone. If you do detect "crossthreading" or "stripping" of the threads, you have a much better case in small claims court, as it shows positive proof of incompetence on the mechanics part. Even if the damage was done before the last oil change, it was the mechanics responsibility to make you aware of it. It also shows he was a moron, because it could have meant a bigger repair job before he ever started the oil change. So, it's not a likely possibility. If the hole is not cross threaded, your back to square one and I suspect it is not or the mechanic that discovered the missing oil plug and replaced it would have noticed unless they're all idiots in that part of the country and I doubt they are.... whew! In the end, I say your best bet is to go to small claims court and plead your case. The suggestion you may have hit a rock or removed it again and improperly re-installed it is absurd on the face of it. The mechanic that replaced your oil was undoubtedly the last to touch it and having the tow driver's and his mechanic's affidavit is probably as good as you're going to get. Throw your dice and take your chances. OTOH, be aware that even if the judge rules in your favor, that doesn't get you money in your hand. I can't remember all the small claims court cases I've heard about where the losing defendent refused to cough up. That's a whole other issue ...and legal problem. On top of that, all this takes time. If I were you, I'd bite the bullet, borrow some money from friends, family, whomever, and get your car fixed now. Learn lifes lessons and try for satisfaction later. Good luck nb > If you do detect "crossthreading" or "stripping" of the > threads, you > have a much better case in small claims court, as it shows > positive > proof of incompetence on the mechanics part. snip > The suggestion you may have hit a rock or removed it > again and improperly re-installed it is absurd on the face > of it. What's absurd about a rock hitting the drain plug and loosening it or damaging the threads? This doesn't strike me as impossible. > What's absurd about a rock hitting the drain plug and > loosening it or damaging the threads? Any collision strong enough to rip a drain plug out of its hole, or even loosen a properly torqued plug, is enough to leave visible peripheral damage. Too believe a vehicle can drive along and hit a single "rock" just right, so as to only hit a single apex of a hex head oil plug, turning it in the "lefty loosey" direction, while touching no other part of the undercarriage is about as likely as your mother's left nipple exploding in President Bush's eyeball on the Fourth of July (this year). Please tell me you don't believe either one of these possiblities exist. ;) nb > On 2006-03-24, Elle <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > visible > peripheral damage. The problem is you're speculating, not asserting provable facts. You can't prove that something didn't hit the drain plug and damage it or cause it to free; or that someone didn't get under there and free it; or that it's reasonable for a person to be clueless about the oil pressure warning light. Any one of those defeats the OP's argument IMO. > > On 2006-03-24, Elle <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Any one of those defeats the OP's argument IMO. I gotta go with "notbob" on this one. If a road object was struck involving the drain plug, peripheral damage should be evident and still the plug would probably stay intact providing it was tightened properly. JT <snip> >> You can't prove that something didn't hit the drain plug and >> damage it or cause it to free; or that someone didn't get [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > involving the drain plug, peripheral damage should be evident and still > the plug would probably stay intact providing it was tightened properly. In Hondas, as in just about ALL cars made after about 1960, oil pan drain plugs are generally oriented towards the rear of the car, and placed *above* the *lowest* point on the drain pan. In order for a foreign object to rip the plug out of the sump, or displace it enough to cause it to fall out or leak, it would have to be encountered during impact occurring when the vehicle was in rearwards motion, and/or the impact would have to be devastating enough to severely deform the sump. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > the impact would have to be devastating enough to severely deform the sump. Yep. Having seen more than a few trashed oil pans/sumps in both autos and motorcycles, I've never seen one that was missing its oil plug. I've also seen at least one missing oil plug episode. No crossthreading, no stripped threads, just gone. It's from not tightening the damn thing, plain and simple. nb >> the impact would have to be devastating enough to severely deform the >> sump. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > nb Just once, I saw a no-plug thing. In that case, the plug had been finger- tightened and the tech had forgot to torque it down. It fell out within minutes of the customer leaving the shop. Light came on, client (very wisely) immediately shut the motor down, garage towed the car back and corrected the problem. End of story. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > Light came on, client (very wisely) immediately shut the motor down, garage > towed the car back and corrected the problem. End of story. yep! >> Light came on, client (very wisely) immediately shut the motor down, >> garage towed the car back and corrected the problem. End of story. > > yep! I had an oil problem once in a '75 Toyota Corolla in 1981 or 1982 (long time ago, memory fails). Light came on. I pulled over immediately. Oil was off the stick, and right side of block was soaked. What had happened was I had added a brass tee in order to hook up both the OEM idiot light and an aftermarket gauge at the same time, and the tee had broken away from the block, spewing oil everywhere. It was Sunday, and in Ontario back then very few places were (allowed to be) open on Sunday. Luckily I found one garage open. The attendant charged me almost ten dollars for two quarts of oil (ouch!). I found a suitable wood screw and a bit of gasket material in my toolbox. Combining all of that, I made it home. Car ran fine for many years afterwards. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > If a road object was struck > involving the drain plug, peripheral damage should be > evident and still > the plug would probably stay intact providing it was > tightened properly. Begs the question of whether the guy could win in court (small claims or otherwise), which has been my point (or I've tried to make it clear that it's my point) all along. This is about probabilities. You seem to be aware of this, since you qualified your statement with "should" and "probably." That's how I'd qualify discussion of whether the drain plug could get knocked loose, too. Still, the problem is proof. It's been weeks since the oil was changed. Too much could have happened to justify blaming the shop. The OP says this and that, but the problem is he can't prove any of it. It's his word against the shop's. Plus, there's still the whole issue of how the OP responded when his low oil pressure light came on. How to respond to that is crystal clear in the manual. The OP did not follow those directions at all. I know, I'm talking to the walls. I don't think many of us are on the same page here at all. Anyway, the OP seems determined to get money from the shop for his major loss. Let's see how far he gets, though I fear those of you urging him to pursue this further are going to end up costing him more. I can imagine how unhappy this young man is, though. Thousands of dollars down the drain on a, well, youthful mistake. We've all probably been there. > > If a road object was struck > > involving the drain plug, peripheral damage should be [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Thousands of dollars down the drain on a, well, youthful > mistake. We've all probably been there. My experience with regards to "loose" oil plugs as a result of sloppy service from quick change oil places are almost always resolved in favor of the customer. It's an almost common occurrence... JT > My experience with regards to "loose" oil plugs as a > result of sloppy > service from quick change oil places are almost always > resolved in favor > of the customer. It's an almost common occurrence... A month after the fact? Paying for a new engine? I'd have to read the details. > > My experience with regards to "loose" oil plugs as a > > result of sloppy [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I'd have to read the details. EOT JT >>>What's absurd about a rock hitting the drain plug and >>>loosening it or damaging the threads? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > under there and free it; or that it's reasonable for a > person to be clueless about the oil pressure warning light. Sorry, Elle, the burden of proof is on the party claiming negligence, not the other way round. This is a civil matter, so the standard is a preponderance of evidence and not beyond a reasonable doubt; but I don't think OP has a case here. BTW, you're the one who asked >>>What's absurd about a rock hitting the drain plug and >>>loosening it or damaging the threads? so it's up to you to prove that that's indeed what happened. Barring some freak videotape turning up a la Rodney King, there's no practical way to establish exactly *what* happened. >>>>What's absurd about a rock hitting the drain plug and >>>>loosening it or damaging the threads? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Sorry, Elle, the burden of proof is on the party claiming > negligence, Sorry, Sparky, but I never said otherwise. Of course the standard is a preponderance and not beyond a reasonable doubt. Likewise, I never said otherwise. You need to read carefully. > not the other way round. This is a civil matter, so the > standard is a preponderance of evidence and not beyond a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > so it's up to you to prove that that's indeed what > happened. No, you've got it all messed up. We happen to agree that too much time has elapsed to make a persuasive argument that the shop was at fault. You're misconstruing my statements. > > What's absurd about a rock hitting the drain plug and > > loosening it or damaging the threads? > > Any collision strong enough to rip a drain plug out of its hole, or > even loosen a properly torqued plug, is enough to leave visible > peripheral damage. You know, I would think that even collisions in which the oil pain is severed and flung 300 yards from the crash site, it will be found with the drain plug in place. :) That is, if it was installed properly: right thread size, with 30-something lb-ft of torque. > Too believe a vehicle can drive along and hit a > single "rock" just right, so as to only hit a single apex of a hex > head oil plug, turning it in the "lefty loosey" direction Downward inpact on a properly tightened bolt only relieves pressure in the threads, because they stress acts in the direction which pulls the bolt into the case. The threads in the case push against the outward-facing surfaces of the bolt's threads. Moreover, the head of the bolt is flush with the mounting surface, and so the impact is transmitted to that surface. There is pressure between the bolt head and the mounting surface, but in the bolt's shaft there is tension! I.e. you are not going to strip the threads by hammering straight down on a a tightened bolt. On the other hand, lateral impact causes shear which has a tendency to rip the head off. You are right: to loosen the bolt, a torque impact would be needed, like that of an impact wrench. Hitting a single rock just right, so that a single torque impact loosens the bolt, is just about impossible. And anyway, that's not considering that the bolt is located such that it does not extend downward beneath the nether profile of the oil pan. Even if the oil pan bottoms out and scrapes over some pavement or rock, it's not likely that the bolt will be touched at all. Moreover, because the bolt is mounted on a rear-oriented surface of the oil pan, it's shielded from flying objects. You'd have to drive in reverse, at high speed, on a rocky road, behind some heavy truck that flings rocks into the air. But then, I'm not a multi-degreed, certified engineer, so WTF do I know. >> On 2006-03-24, Elle <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> >> wrote: > But then, I'm not a multi-degreed, certified engineer, so > WTF do I > know. You said it. Not me. Considering my gracious (and honest) remarks earlier, you're way out of line, son. I disagree with your "analysis," because vibrations, for one, do loosen bolts. I'd try to break it down with you, but I can see you don't have the command of the vocabulary here to discuss this intelligently. You're also not addressing my other points re being able to /prove/ the guy didn't hit something or someone didn't monkey with the bolt after the oil change or knowing the meaning of the oil pressure light. That's all the shop's lawyer (or just a technician smarter than you) has to ask, ya know: "Sir, did you read the owner's manual, and if you did, what part concerning the oil pressure light did not make sense to you?... Sir, do you have a mental disability?" > What's absurd about a rock hitting the drain plug and > loosening it or damaging the threads? Firstly, do you know where the drain plug is and which way it faces? >> What's absurd about a rock hitting the drain plug and >> loosening it or damaging the threads? > > Firstly, do you know where the drain plug is and which way > it faces? Yup. Been changing oil in cars for over 20 years. Do you reject that something could hit the drain plug and damage it? I'm not saying it did. I'm arguing it's impossible to prove that it didn't. > Yup. Been changing oil in cars for over 20 years. I've been doing it for 40! > Do you reject that something could hit the drain plug and > damage it? Not at all. Seen it several times. Have you? What I am saying is to hit the oil plug just right so as to loosen it without leaving any tell-tale marks or damages anywhere near it is of such a remote possiblitity as to be virtually impossible. > I'm not saying it did. I'm arguing it's impossible to prove > that it didn't. Actually, it's quite easy. Lack of proof that it did happen is proof out of hand. I'd drop it before you lose what little credibility you have. nb > Actually, it's quite easy. Lack of proof that it did > happen is proof > out of hand. I can't quite parse this, but if you're saying the courts do not consider alternative explanations, weighing the plausibility of them, for a phenomenon, then you're quite mistaken. > I'd drop it before you lose what little credibility you > have. I think the thread speaks for itself. We disagree. > As for their "brilliant career" choice, most technicians > I've met are as smart or smarter than doctors or lawyers. Common knowledge among eng techs for years! ;) > I write this as a multi-degreed, multi-licensed, extensively > experienced engineer who still can't perform a clutch job. Don't beat yourself up over it, Elle. Naw, just kidding. It's just different skillsets and experience. Linear-spatial, right brain-left brain, and all that kinda crap. ;) nb > On 2006-03-24, Elle <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Don't beat yourself up over it, Elle. Unless you're able to do brain surgery in addition to being able to change a timing belt, I wouldn't let it go to your head. :-) > Naw, just kidding. It's just different skillsets and > experience. Yup. > Linear-spatial, right brain-left brain, and all that kinda > crap. ;) Nope. :-) Hey that happened to my Mom...in the future...this coming summer! Signaturemtmaurer8ooo http://www.automotiveforums.com > So heres the story: I was driving my 91 civic back from work when my > check oil light came on. I stopped at a gas station, got new oil, and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > A: Is it possible to prove responsibility? I don't think you have much of a case - problem arose too long after the job was done, enabling the oil change place to claim your car was fine when it left their shop. They don't have to explain, nor are they responsible for, what "might" have happened subsequently leading to your engine failure. > B: What should my course of action be? Your call. Sorry to hear about your problem, really sucks having your car conk out like this. DND85@aol.com wrote in news:1143150178.722002.119160 @j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: > So heres the story: I was driving my 91 civic back from work when my > check oil light came on. I stopped at a gas station, got new oil, and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > A: Is it possible to prove responsibility? > B: What should my course of action be? JDM imported engine for that car costs roughly around 500 bucks or less with low milage. If you do have a good lawsuit, start out by finding a motor for your car. Look on the internet at hmotors online and osaka motors. They both carry JDM honda motors. Once you've found the one you want to replace it with (a single cam non- vtec 1.5L or 1.6L D-series motor), get pricing (including shipping), add the installation costs (get a quote from a shop) and then add about 300 to 500 dollars for odds and ends, and you have the amount to sue for. Unfortunately, the only evidence you have is the mechanic's word who pointed it out to you. Hopefully he's credible. If all else fails, start a smear campaign, and contact newspapers, etc, about your problem. Maybe the oil change facility will cave and pay for your new motor (doubtful). |
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