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Car Forum / Honda Cars / April 200691 Honda Civic Valve Cover Bolt Broke...
Well I just had the fun task of changing out my waterpump on my civic, got the thing all back in time putting everything together and the last step was to put the valve cover on. When I was putting it on I didnt know I wasnt supposed to put much strength into it, and it snapped the two front bolts on my valve cover. There are a total of 4 bolts in all that hold this valve cover down. I was just wondering if someone knew how to replace the bad bolts and if you have any other suggestions instead of replacing the bolts. Could I instead take out the rubber washer and replace it with some type of sealant and then use a nut to tighten it down.. I dont know I am kinda lost on this one, hopefully you guys can help me out. Hey, saw your post yesterday IIRC and thought I'd offer two cents, based on my own 91 Civic and the drawings at places Majestic Honda. Is there anything at all left of the stud, such that you can attach a vise grip and try to free it? Dunno if you noticed it yet, but from http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&cat cgry1=Civic&catcgry2=1991&catcgry3=4DR+LX&catcgry4=KA5MT&catcgry5=CYLINDER+HEAD+ COVER and some drawings in my Chilton manual, these studs appear to be threaded at both ends. Dunno why the drawing specifies only two of these bolts. I could be missing something. Apply PB Blaster (taking care not to let it get into the cylinder head area), and try to free them with a vise grip or tiny pipe wrench. If that fails, I think drilling (with the correct size bit), and then applying the correct size EZ-Out may work. Hopefully you have other wheels to get you to parts stores to troubleshoot this. Only 7 ft-lbs of torque is needed to tighten the nuts on these bolts. A low range torque wrench, available at places like Harbor Freight, is a good investment for $30 or less, typically. > Well I just had the fun task of changing out my waterpump > on my civic, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > know I am kinda > lost on this one, hopefully you guys can help me out. Thanks for your help, as your were probably typing this I was outside taking my valve cover off again, and I took a 3/4 size deepwell socket to the bolt and removed it along with the stud. It is threaded on both sides with a nut in the middle sort of. Kinda hard to explain. But I have a buddy with the same 91 civic as mine and his motor is crap so I am gonna try and get someone to run me by his house to take off his bolts, and hopefully that will solve this problem. One more question though without having to buy another tool (i am pretty broke right now) About how tight should I make the bolt, no more then just one hand tight with a ratchet? And should I replace the rubber gasket or anything? Heh thats the part I need right there. So just incase anyone else runs into this problem and doesnt have a friend with a parts car, this is the part you will most likely need. Its on the website that the guy posted earlier, much appreciated. 83198 010 2 BOLT B, CYL HD CVR > Heh thats the part I need right there. So just incase > anyone else runs [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > 83198 010 2 BOLT B, CYL HD CVR For the archives, the aforementioned Majestic Honda parts site doesn't give actual Honda part numbers. One can go to www.slhonda.com , get the same drawings and part listings, and also get the actual Honda part numbers. Salvage yards are also an option for getting replacement studs. Gal "Elle" > Thanks for your help, as your were probably typing this I > was outside [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > sides with a nut in the middle sort of. Kinda hard to > explain. That's consistent with the drawings at the parts site I gave earlier. I also just googled this group's archives, and others seem to have had plenty of success using your approach or drilling and "EZ-outing." People also say these studs are notorious for breaking (or, um, people are notorious for overtorquing them beyond the required 7 ft-lbs.) > But I > have a buddy with the same 91 civic as mine and his motor [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > bolt, no more > then just one hand tight with a ratchet? I really don't even want to say anything like it's half a turn after you feel resistance. I do try to keep some kind of tabs on what force I'm applying at X distance from the bolt centerline when I'm using an actual torque wrench. But this is tricky. You could easily end up overtorquing or undertorquing by 50%. Here's a really cheap route: Go to Wal-Mart and buy one of those fish scales that go up to maybe 20 lbs. I saw some for around $5 not long ago. Rig something up to attach the scale to the end of the appropriate wrench. Say the wrench is six inches long. Then apply 14 lbs. of force, measuring with the scale. That gives about 7 ft-lbs. of torque. You could try to calibrate other springs you have lying on. Use water to calibrate it. A pint of water weighs about a pound. > And should I replace the rubber gasket or anything? The four rubber washers beneath the four cap nuts that go on the studs do harden from heat and age and do eventually leak. I'd replace them about every 100k miles. My own 91 Civic's started leaking I think around 150k miles, 13 years. They are $2 each online. Try www.cheapesthondaparts.com for the best shipping prices. I urge not going with non-OEM rubber parts for Hondas. From my and others' experience, these do not last. You pay a little more for the OEM rubber parts, but you really do get more life out of them, too. P.S. It was some guy with an Accord having busted stud problems similar to yours who posted the other day. > Here's a really cheap route: Go to Wal-Mart and buy one of > those fish scales that go up to maybe 20 lbs. I saw some for > around $5 not long ago. Rig something up to attach the scale > to the end of the appropriate wrench. Say the wrench is six > inches long. Then apply 14 lbs. of force, measuring with the > scale. That gives about 7 ft-lbs. of torque. Bad idea. Spring fish scales are notoriously inaccurate. A $5 one is likely close to useless. Add the likelyhood of the pull vector not being exactly 90 deg and the pull point not being exactly 6 inches and we're probably real close to getting back to that 50% error you were speaking of. The OP is saving big bucks by doing himself. Use the savings to get a good torque wrench. > You could try to calibrate other springs you have lying on. > Use water to calibrate it. A pint of water weighs about a > pound. "About" adds another 4% inaccuracy. Get a torque wrench. nb > "About" adds another 4% inaccuracy. Get a torque wrench. A cheap beam type is about $20, will work just fine and is sold in any hardware store. It's all I use for light stuff like valve cover nuts. It's even good for setting preload on tapered wheel bearings, as that's often a pound or less. What also helps is to learn what it feels like when a bolt is near its correct torque. Feels like a sudden ramp-up in effort needed to turn the bolt. Knowing that sensation will help prevent overtorquing when you are unable to use a proper torque wrench on your fastener.  SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> "About" adds another 4% inaccuracy. Get a torque wrench. You apparently are unaware of how inaccurate the tension applied to a bolt via torquing it is even when using a calibrated torque wrench. Getting a click at 7 ft-lbs. with a calibrated torque wrench only assures one is in the ball park for proper fastening. >>>"About" adds another 4% inaccuracy. Get a torque wrench. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Getting a click at 7 ft-lbs. with a calibrated torque wrench > only assures one is in the ball park for proper fastening. Elle, I'm not very good with the science of statistics, but I think you are definitely wrong. Sure, if I took my 1/2", drive decent quality (Craftsman) beam torque wrench and tried to accurately hit 7lbs. I'd fail. The reason is, relative to the range or scale that wrench is designed for or calibrated for, 7 ft.*lbs. isn't much. I *think* my 1/2" wrench goes up to 150 ft.*lbs. |7|/150 is less than 5%. I'm sure there are torque wrenches out there(1/4" drive) that could measure that torque accurately. Also, I think the torque measurment will not be applicable if the fastener is deformed significantly and dirty(which I think you were including in what you were trying to say). Mark P.S. When I started fixing my first Honda ('91 DX Sedan), I broke one of the studs for the valve cover like the OP. That's when I started to figure out that It'd be worthwhile for me to get a torque wrench. I think you can get wrenches for bicycles that are measured in in.*lbs. <snip> > Sure, if I took my 1/2", drive decent quality > (Craftsman) beam torque wrench and tried to accurately hit 7lbs. I'd > fail. The reason is, relative to the range or scale that wrench is > designed for or calibrated for, 7 ft.*lbs. isn't much. If you broke off a valve cover stud, you didn't torque the nut to 9 or 10 lbs instead of 7, you reefed the hell out of it and squashed the rubber donut. In a light-duty application like this, accuracy isn't critical. What IS critical is that you have the sense to know not to keep yanking on the wrench because you want it just a bit tighter...maybe a little more...just a touch more...SNAP! It's also a bad idea to try and solve a leak by screwing the nut down more to do it. Same result. I see similar things with idiots who think they need to jump on the tire iron when the put their wheels back on. Wheel studs don't snap because they were torqued to 100 instead of 80, they snap because somebody torqued them to 300 lbs! SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > I see similar things with idiots who think they need to jump on the tire > iron when the put their wheels back on. Wheel studs don't snap because they > were torqued to 100 instead of 80, they snap because somebody torqued them > to 300 lbs! and the only time ive heard of people losing lugnuts is when they arent tightened *at all*. no torque wrench? 2 hands, push down on the tire wrench. cant push down no mo? its done. for the valve cover, id use a 1/4" drive, one hand, twist, done. >> I see similar things with idiots who think they need to jump on the >> tire iron when the put their wheels back on. Wheel studs don't snap [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > arent tightened *at all*. no torque wrench? 2 hands, push down on the > tire wrench. cant push down no mo? its done. I mean the stud BROKEN, something I see frequently. That is a bouncy-bouncy overtorque job. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > Elle wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > drive decent quality (Craftsman) beam torque wrench and > tried to accurately hit 7lbs. No, I meant even a torque wrench for which 7 ft-lbs. was mid-range would fail to achieve with much precision the precisely recommended tension (sic) in the bolt. > I'd fail. The reason is, relative to the range or scale > that wrench is designed for or calibrated for, 7 ft.*lbs. > isn't much. I *think* my 1/2" wrench goes up to 150 > ft.*lbs. |7|/150 is less than 5%. I'm sure there are > torque wrenches out there(1/4" drive) that could measure > that torque accurately. What you're missing is that the problem is not getting the right amount of torque. The problem is the assumption that X ft-lbs. of torque correlates to exactly Y lbs. of tension in the bolt. > Also, I think the torque measurment will not be applicable > if the fastener is deformed significantly and dirty(which > I think you were including in what you were trying to > say). Correct. The surface variability adds a huge uncertainty to achieving the recommended tension in a bolt via the application of torque. > P.S. When I started fixing my first Honda ('91 DX Sedan), > I broke one of the studs for the valve cover like the OP. > That's when I started to figure out that It'd be > worthwhile for me to get a torque wrench. I think you can > get wrenches for bicycles that are measured in in.*lbs. My low range torque wrench is calibrated in inch-lbs. For the OP: A fish weighing scale, with a hook on the end easily attached to a wrench may be had at Wal-Mart for $3. Mid-range is IIRC exactly 14 lbs. > You apparently are unaware of how inaccurate the tension > applied to a bolt via torquing it is even when using a > calibrated torque wrench. It's a helluva lot more accurate than a $3 made-in-China fish scale. nb > "About" adds another 4% inaccuracy. Get a torque wrench. harbor freight sells em, cheap. even a beam-type would be ok. speaking of, i oughta toss some old tools on ebay. make a few bucks! |
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