Car Forum / Honda Cars / May 2006
Ethanol in gas?
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Dr Nick - 25 Apr 2006 04:56 GMT my local stations just started using ethanol in their pumps (happend about 2 weeks ago or so) they are all 10% ethanol. besides form what I've been reading about it getting worse gas mileage (which I find funny, because gas keeps going up steadly, and then one day I notice a 10% ethanol sticker, and gas was still higher.... seems pretty fishy to me, but what can you expect from oil companies. ) is ethanol bad for my engine (I4 2006 accord) what percentage of ethanol can it safely take? do any stations still use regular gas formulations (non ethanol)?
-Nick
jim beam - 25 Apr 2006 05:34 GMT > my local stations just started using ethanol in their pumps (happend about 2 > weeks ago or so) they are all 10% ethanol. besides form what I've been > reading about it getting worse gas mileage (which I find funny, because gas > keeps going up steadly, and then one day I notice a 10% ethanol sticker, and > gas was still higher.... seems pretty fishy to me, but what can you expect > from oil companies. ) is ethanol bad for my engine (I4 2006 accord) not specifically.
> what > percentage of ethanol can it safely take? up to 15% iirc.
> do any stations still use regular > gas formulations (non ethanol)? my local stations were pumping non-ethanol gas for a couple of weeks [the compulsory ethanol "oxygenate" mandate has been dropped for california], but have recently started with ethanol again. very distinctive change in odor, and in my case, hesitation on acceleration. with ethanol, my car has a very distinct "flat spot" at about 2000 rpm. those two weeks without, the car was back to normal operation. all this ethanol b.s. is entirely unnecessary and serves only to "volumize" gas, i.e. you pay more for less. dig about on api.org if you don't believe it. gasoline should be sold by the therm, not the gallon - that way, all these reduced mpg games would stop.
> -Nick TeGGeR® - 25 Apr 2006 13:00 GMT >> my local stations just started using ethanol in their pumps (happend >> about 2 weeks ago or so) they are all 10% ethanol. besides form what [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > up to 15% iirc. If so, that must be recent change. All the cars I've ever seen will take up to only 10% ethanol or 15% MTBE without alteration.
>> do any stations still use regular >> gas formulations (non ethanol)? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > all this ethanol b.s. is entirely unnecessary and serves only to > "volumize" gas, i.e. you pay more for less. Not quite. It's being added because the deep-green freaks have managed beyond all logic to convince legislators that ethanol is somehow "environmentally friendly".
Ethanol is a non-starter without the government shoveling your taxes to the refiners to buy the stuff. Oxygenated fuels go stale very quickly and are tough on older cars' fuel systems.
Also, the biggest lobbyist for ethanol and ethanol subsisdies is ArcherDanielsMidland (ADM). And just guess who America's biggest producer (and subsidy recipient) of industrial ethanol is...?
> dig about on api.org if > you don't believe it. gasoline should be sold by the therm, not the > gallon - that way, all these reduced mpg games would stop. For Canadian readers wishing to avoid ethanol, the only station that sells non-ethanolized gas is Esso (Imperial Oil/ExxonMobil). They still use MTBE, which is derived from natural gas, and they have no plans to move to ethanol any time soon.
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jim beam - 26 Apr 2006 02:49 GMT >>>my local stations just started using ethanol in their pumps (happend >>>about 2 weeks ago or so) they are all 10% ethanol. besides form what [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > which is derived from natural gas, and they have no plans to move to > ethanol any time soon. mtbe still reduces mpg's, so it's just another variant of the same game. whether it's ethanol, mtbe or some other "essential" ingredient, selling gasoline by the therm would completely stop this, what would in any other industry be technically referred to as, "a rip off".
back when i was an undergrad, one of the hot ticket research areas was high temperature materials for combustion technology. basic thermodynamics show that the higher the combustion temperature achieved, the better the efficiency. but then, BOOM, suddenly, we have NOx emissions to worry about and the dream of high thermodynamic efficiency and significantly lower fuel consumption is forever dead. it's strange how things always seem to work out for the oil industry like this, isn't it?
butch burton - 26 Apr 2006 03:01 GMT MTBE is an interesting commodity - most of it is produced by our friends to the north - Canada. Well when the free trade agreements were negotiated with our neighbors in the Americas under the ageis of Carla Hill in the Bush 1 admin, there were clauses that provided for damages if an exporter was negatively affected by legislation passed by the country importing the product.
MTBE was found to be a potential cancer causing agent - was removed as a gasoline additive from US gasoline blends. Now the US taxpayers are being sued big time by the Canadian producers and they stand to make a bundle.
Now guess who is on the lead team of attorneys handling the Canadian suit against our govt - the lady who always wore the red suits - Carla Hill - ain't it funny how the revolving door works.
Be interesting to see if anyone in our leadership calls bull sh.t on the whole ethanol game - won't happen too much money being made here.
jim beam - 26 Apr 2006 03:15 GMT > MTBE is an interesting commodity - most of it is produced by our > friends to the north - Canada. Well when the free trade agreements [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Be interesting to see if anyone in our leadership calls bull sh.t on > the whole ethanol game - won't happen too much money being made here. all that is true. but the one i like the most is the one about the oil company that [successfully] lobbied for the introduction of mtbe in california. it was the same firm who had a certain california governor's wife on its board and whose refineries used a process that happened to produce a lot of mtbe as an otherwise unwanted by-product.
ThomasE - 26 Apr 2006 08:26 GMT Regarding the more tangible ideas presented I suggest that we all run an experiment with our cars comparing Ethanol Gas with Non Ethanol Gas. As I have indicated in my Apr 24, 2006 at 02:48 PM post under the title “MPG difference with different gas?“ I, personally, have seen strong indication of large fluctuations in gas mileage between two different brands/gas stations that I have been monitoring lately here in Milpitas, CA. The difference is not small. So far I have filled up a total of 6 tanks of gas (3 from each station) using my 3 different cars and noticed a 15-17%!! difference in the ethanol gas compared to the non-ethanol gas. The magnitude of the difference surprised me.
I engaged in this experiment because I had been routinely fueling up at my local 76 gas station for the past year or so, checking gas mileage once in a while out of curiosity and as an indication of general engine health. Then, in the last few months, I noticed that gas mileage on my ’98 Nissan Frontier had dropped significantly and I started wondering if my engine was getting out of tune. So I tried filling up at another gas station, my local Shell station and voila! The MPG went back up to the 24.5MPG that I remember when the truck was new. I repeated the experiment with my other two cars, an ’88 Nissan 323 and a ’89 Honda CRX and I also noticed similar MPG differences (15-17%).
I cannot claim to know at this point whether this is due to the ethanol or other additives. I do know that the caloric content of ethanol is much lower than gas so some decrease in gas mileage should be expected. Also I do not know whether the caloric content of ethanol is converted to mechanical energy with the same efficiency. And sure, other factors could be at play such as driving conditions, ambient temperature, accuracy of pump measurement etc. So I would like to encourage you to run similar experiments as I continue my experiment so that we can collect a large statistical sample and remove the random errors.
I also suggest that somebody posts some ideas on how to remove other variables from this experiment so that MPG differences can be attributed to gasoline only. E.g. Do not compare city driving with Highway driving, short driving with long driving etc. In my case, with my truck, I do mostly highway driving and I noticed that the MPG using gas from any one particular gas station is surprisingly consistent (no more than 2-3% variation). I cannot explain the 15-17% difference that I have recently observed between these the two gas stations I mentioned above. When it comes to the less tangible ideas presented, I have to confess, that I live in the US but I am originally from Europe and still spend a lot of time in Europe. In Europe where there is a lot more regulation by our “benevolent” governments we pay around $6 per gallon in most European states. The true cost of gas in Europe is more or less the same as for every other country, that is, somewhere between $2.00 and $2.50 per gallon which covers paying for the international price of crude, refinement costs and various transportation costs. The rest of the price up to the $6 level is, you guessed it, taxes that our benevolent European governments levy on us using the power that we relinquished to them a long time ago. My general advice to you Americans is, whatever you do, do not follow Europe’s example. If you do, you will also deprive us Europeans of the still rather individualistic America you have now which is the only remaining reminder to us and the rest of the world of what our countries could have been had we not relinquished our power as individuals to the collectivism of the state. As to how America got to be this fortunate, it’s another story but, from what I see, America’s individualistic fortitude will be temporary and short lived if you do not safeguard it. After all, wouldn’t you agree that it would be difficult for America to avoid the fate of almost every other country in the world? So be very weary of relinquishing power to the collective thinking of the state, it is a one way path, a trap that almost every other country in the world has fallen into and cannot get out of. It happens gradually as it happened for us Europeans. For many of us Europeans America is left as the only reminder of what our countries could have been.
Robert Mozeleski - 26 Apr 2006 23:21 GMT This link will let you see what mileage others are getting in real life. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?action=browseList I have been updating mine almost every time i fill up. 09/30/2005 266.40 8.009 33.3 10/07/2005 230.00 8.122 28.3 10/17/2005 225.80 7.769 29.1 10/24/2005 222.40 7.674 29.0 11/08/2005 221.90 7.658 29.0 12/14/2005 186.50 7.247 25.7 03/27/2006 236.30 8.681 27.2 04/05/2006 255.30 8.704 29.3 04/12/2006 224.40 7.521 29.8 04/25/2006 244.40 8.847 27.6
Go here first and create your own record https://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do it graphs it out for you also.
> Regarding the more tangible ideas presented I suggest that we all run an > experiment with our cars comparing Ethanol Gas with Non Ethanol Gas. As I [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > us Europeans. For many of us Europeans America is left as the only > reminder of what our countries could have been. TeGGeR® - 26 Apr 2006 03:20 GMT >> For Canadian readers wishing to avoid ethanol, the only station that >> sells non-ethanolized gas is Esso (Imperial Oil/ExxonMobil). They [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > mtbe still reduces mpg's, so it's just another variant of the same > game. whether it's ethanol, mtbe or some other "essential" ingredient, Maybe so, but MTBE is derived from natural gas, and is a lot more financially viable than ethanol. Ethanol only works if you rob Peter to pay Paul.
90% of emissions were removed from auto exhaust by about the late '80s. In spite of a 153% increase in vehicular traffic since 1970, the federal EPA says the air is about 53% cleaner than 1970, and that's in absolute terms.
If the environuts would stop their insane fulmination about imaginary hobgoblins, we'd still have MMT as our octane booster. It's cheaper than MTBE or ethanol, and allows fuel to keep longer.
> selling gasoline by the therm would completely stop this, what would > in any other industry be technically referred to as, "a rip off". [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > thermodynamics show that the higher the combustion temperature > achieved, the better the efficiency. I remember a brief, faddish infatuation with adiabatic technology in the '80s. That didn't last long.
> but then, BOOM, suddenly, we > have NOx emissions to worry about and the dream of high thermodynamic > efficiency and significantly lower fuel consumption is forever dead. It was dead in the early '70s, when the EPA suddenly realized that their focus on reducing HC was resulting in higher NO. This resulted in an about- face in emissions regulation, and gave us EGR and lower compression ratios, along with lower mileage and power.
Power and mileage did not begin to recover until computer engine management came along.
> it's strange how things always seem to work out for the oil industry > like this, isn't it? To a point I suppose. But...
It didn't work out for them when they were told to find an alternative to TEL. It didn't work out for them when they were prevented by the greenies and the NIMBYs from building new refineries. It didn't work out for them when they were told to produce "boutique" fuels for tiny markets. It didn't work out for them when they were told to reduce sulfur content.
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jim beam - 26 Apr 2006 03:44 GMT >>>For Canadian readers wishing to avoid ethanol, the only station that >>>sells non-ethanolized gas is Esso (Imperial Oil/ExxonMobil). They [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > hobgoblins, we'd still have MMT as our octane booster. It's cheaper than > MTBE or ethanol, and allows fuel to keep longer. octane is not such an issue these days. better combustion chamber design has all but eliminated the serious issues that used to be such problems with low octane gas.
> > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > It was dead in the early '70s, when the EPA suddenly realized that their > focus on reducing HC was resulting in higher NO. which was fine if you didn't have a catalyst!
> This resulted in an about- > face in emissions regulation, and gave us EGR and lower compression ratios, > along with lower mileage and power. but now we have catalysts! and they're very effective! so let's get back to the pursuit of high efficiency!
> Power and mileage did not begin to recover until computer engine management > came along. it's definitely helped a lot, but it addresses service inefficiency, not thermodynamic efficiency, the fundamental issue.
>>it's strange how things always seem to work out for the oil industry >>like this, isn't it? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > for tiny markets. > It didn't work out for them when they were told to reduce sulfur content. yes, but this is a high stakes machiavellian game with a LOT of money at stake. would you believe that in my town, there's a certain industrial interest group that pays a large retainer to an enviro-lawyer that ostensively acts against them? why? because it allows them to bleat about "unfair" market conditions and get other concessions up the wazoo. i'd love to be more specific, but it wouldn't be good for my career.
"boutique" fuel is what i'm talking about in my response to butch. and sulfur is easy enough to do. but bleating about how hard it is allows tax concessions on infrastructure and price increases.
SoCalMike - 26 Apr 2006 08:47 GMT > To a point I suppose. But... > > It didn't work out for them when they were told to find an alternative to > TEL. > It didn't work out for them when they were prevented by the greenies and > the NIMBYs from building new refineries. excuses, excuses. excuses to charge more for gas. "its the greenies"! its "nimby", etc. royal dutch shell closed a perfectly good refinery in bakersfield california for no reason other than to tighten supply.
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aqCQOg0SrBF8&refer=us
> It didn't work out for them when they were told to produce "boutique" fuels > for tiny markets. > It didn't work out for them when they were told to reduce sulfur content. it always works out for them. always.
Kevin McMurtrie - 26 Apr 2006 07:19 GMT [snip]
> back when i was an undergrad, one of the hot ticket research areas was > high temperature materials for combustion technology. basic [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > it's strange how things always seem to work out for the oil industry > like this, isn't it? Engines run with some extra air around the edges of the combustion to take care carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons, and soot. That extra air is what produces NOx. The solution to that is to cool the combustion by diluting the air/fuel mixture with exhaust. There goes the efficiency.
Unfortunately, there's no more efficient solution at this time. The additional CO2 from reduced efficiency is somewhat less toxic than the hydrocarbons or NOx from an efficient engine.
We're still lacking two critical technologies - cheap fuel cells and cheap hydrogen storage. Some scientists claim that near-future nanotechnologies can make cheap fuel cell catalysts and trap hydrogen in a safe form. I hope so. My Honda Accord Hybrid sure is a failure.
SoCalMike - 26 Apr 2006 08:33 GMT > Not quite. It's being added because the deep-green freaks have managed > beyond all logic to convince legislators that ethanol is somehow > "environmentally friendly". its easy to blame the greenies for everything. wrong!
if the oil companies werent making more money for selling less gas, and the ethanol suppliers/farmers werent making money, it wouldnt have happened. at all. ever.
same with smog checks- theyre a scam too. attrition would get rid of the truly gross polluters.
Kevin McMurtrie - 25 Apr 2006 05:34 GMT > my local stations just started using ethanol in their pumps (happend about 2 > weeks ago or so) they are all 10% ethanol. besides form what I've been [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -Nick Ethanol is fine. It can even be good for the car as long as it doesn't absorb enough water to separate because it dissolves some buildups that won't dissolve in oils. It's currently more expensive than gas because the distribution channels aren't set up right, or at least that's the claim. Ethanol blends have been around as long as gasoline so I think it's more of a scam.
It's the heavy alcohols like methanol and brake fluids that are destructive. They absorb into materials with so much force that they swell up and disintegrate.
notbob - 25 Apr 2006 07:04 GMT > my local stations just started using ethanol in their pumps (happend about 2 > weeks ago or so) they are all 10% ethanol. besides form what I've been > reading about it getting worse gas mileage..... Ethanol in gas is actually quite good. I prefer it. They've been playing around with it for years out here in CA. I remember back in the early 90s, there was a build up of Beacon stations all over NorCal. They were the first I recall seeing 10% ethenol. When they initially hit the market, their ethenol blend was one point octane higher across the range (reg, med, prem) than any other brand. I ran nothing but for several years.
Finally, for some bizarre reason, Beacon took the alcohol out and went back to stright gas, losing that one point octane advantage. I think it was the oil companies paying off politicos. A couple years later, Arco started putting 10% ethenol in their gas (no octane number increase). That also only lasted a couple years. Finally, the oil companies paid off the pols at the fed level which forced that whole MTBE bullshit on us and alcohol again went away.
MTBE is now gone and 10% alocohol is back. Still works great in my '87 Si with 240K miles on it. It worked great in my big ol' Dodge Van, too. That's where I could really tell what gasolines were worth a damn and which weren't. That big ol' V8 had an RV cam in it and was real sensitive to crummy gas with bogus octane ratings. On really hot days (95-105 F) going up a 3 mile grade on my commute, the low quality gasolines would make that sucker ping like crazy. Gasoline-ethenol blends always pinged less than straight gasolines. Shell and Exxon abosolutely sucked, despite being very high priced gas in NorCal. The best were gas/alky blends, Union76, non-alky Arco, and Chevron, in that order.
nb
Kenneth J. Harris - 25 Apr 2006 14:36 GMT Adding up to 10% ethanol to gas is actually good. In areas with cold winters it eliminates the need for using dry gas additives. The ethanol absorbs any water present in gasoline while still staying dissolved in the gasoline so that takes care of frozen fuel line problems. It also helps keep the gas tank clean--it can dissolve substances that gasoline can't. Here in New York we have had only the ethanol blend for several years and neither of my cars has shown any mileage decrease or any other bad effects.
> my local stations just started using ethanol in their pumps (happend about 2 > weeks ago or so) they are all 10% ethanol. besides form what I've been [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -Nick jmattis@attglobal.net - 25 Apr 2006 18:19 GMT > my local stations just started using ethanol in their pumps (happend about 2 > weeks ago or so) they are all 10% ethanol. besides form what I've been [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -Nick May 5, 2006. That's when MTBE must be phased out per federal regulations. If your pump had MTBE before, it will now have up to 10% ethanol. Because MTBE has been detected in water supplies, and is a (suspected?) carcinogen, it is no longer required. So the billions of dollars we consumers paid to build the MTBE production plants is now wasted, and we'll pay additional billions to build ethanol plants. Thirty new plants are under construction now. The cost will be permanently higher than MTBE use, since ethanol must be trucked to the distribution facility and mixed into each tanker before it hits the road. Ethanol in pipelines doesn't work -- it absorbs a huge amount of water in transit. Pipelines are cheap per gallon moved, while tankers are another story.
Most manufacturers already have completed their ethanol deliveries to the pumps by now. If you're not in an area that required MTBE, then the decision to sell an ethanol blend is strictly up to the local merchants. Financially, it is a bad move for the consumer, and i would avoid its use if possible.
Ethanol at 10% results in a 6% loss of mileage compared to straight gas. You'll be back at the pump more often. MTBE at 11% concentration already cost you 3% in mileage, so this is just 3% more lost. Currently, ethanol is actually more expensive than the gas that it displaces in the blend. So you're paying more per gallon, and getting fewer miles. If you have a fairly modern car, ethanol won't really affect it's performance, only your pocketbook.
Meanwhile, Cuba is making plans to drill in the Gulf of Mexico, but Congress won't let our producers do it, being fearful of the Greenies. So Congress can only blame the Prez, because they've got to transfer the heat that is rightfully on their shoulders.
notbob - 25 Apr 2006 19:43 GMT > Thirty new plants are under construction now. The cost will be > permanently higher than MTBE use Nonsense. Ethanol in gas has been around CA for over 15 yrs, the MTBE requirements knocking it out of the mix for a short while. Typically, the most popular alky blend brands, Beacon and Arco, were also the least expensive. Arco has gone back to ethanol and is still the least expensive quality gas in CA.
> merchants. Financially, it is a bad move for the consumer, and i would > avoid its use if possible. That's your choice. I'll take it over straight gas every time.
> Ethanol at 10% results in a 6% loss of mileage compared to straight > gas. I don't believe that. I also don't believe ethanol prices will remain high. Corn grows in the US like a weed. CA, after never having been a major corn producer, is converting whole counties to corn cultivation, along with building related ethanol plants. The "corn belt" is going to lose it's control on ethanol production and distribution.
nb
butch burton - 25 Apr 2006 20:15 GMT The Agri Business Lobby is the biggest booster of ethanol. It can harm certain rubber gaskets and o rings in older autos - dissolves them. It delivers less energy than straight gas. Ethanol gets an $18 per gallon subsidy from us taxpayers and still costs $118 per barrel - really $136 with the subsidy included.
Cornell University did a study of the efficiency of producing ethanol - they determined it took 129 BRU's of energy - inputs ranging from diesel fuel to till, harvest, transport and produce the stuff while only delivering 100 BTU's.
Yes the US of A produces a whole lot of corn simply because the stuff is so subsidized - cash price is now around $2.35 per bushel - not much change from 40 years ago. When Mexico opened their borders to US corn, their local corn producers could not compete - nobody in the world can with that price - cotton is even worse. We have a fantastic amount of "carry over" corn from last year still in silos around the country. The Agri Business Lobby got the gasoline clean air bill passed last year that would require all gasoline in the US to be adultrated with ethanol and increase to 20% of the total blend over the next 10 years. I suspect ethanol in gasoline causes a net degredation to our environment after the inefficiency of the stuff along with the run off from the additional acers of corn being planted is taken into account.
So IMHO all the whole ethanol thing boils down to is this - our congress - both houses cow tows to the Agri Business Lobby - pure and simple - like so many other issues - who has the money controls our federal political system. I know our system is "better" than most others - wow what a mess the rest of the world must be in for that to be true.
End of rant.
jmattis@attglobal.net - 25 Apr 2006 20:32 GMT In addition, the manufacture of corn-based ethanol takes a tremendous amount of water from the environment.
It is sound, accepted fact that it takes 1.5 gallons of ethanol to move a vehicle as far as 1.0 gallons of gas. The earlier poster arguing against the gas mileage drop is either biased or truly ignorant.
Kenneth J. Harris - 25 Apr 2006 23:34 GMT Perhaps you would like to give the your source for your statements that ethanol causes a 6% mileage decrease(= 1.5 gal ethanol approximates 1 gal gas).
> In addition, the manufacture of corn-based ethanol takes a tremendous > amount of water from the environment. > > It is sound, accepted fact that it takes 1.5 gallons of ethanol to move > a vehicle as far as 1.0 gallons of gas. The earlier poster arguing > against the gas mileage drop is either biased or truly ignorant. jim beam - 26 Apr 2006 02:40 GMT > Perhaps you would like to give the your source for your statements that > ethanol causes a 6% mileage decrease(= 1.5 gal ethanol approximates 1 > gal gas). simple math. ethanol has about half the calorific content of gasoline. factor that by the content ratio and you have your mileage decrease.
>> In addition, the manufacture of corn-based ethanol takes a tremendous >> amount of water from the environment. >> >> It is sound, accepted fact that it takes 1.5 gallons of ethanol to move >> a vehicle as far as 1.0 gallons of gas. The earlier poster arguing >> against the gas mileage drop is either biased or truly ignorant. jmattis@attglobal.net - 26 Apr 2006 17:52 GMT > Perhaps you would like to give the your source for your statements that > ethanol causes a 6% mileage decrease(= 1.5 gal ethanol approximates 1 > gal gas). You could Google it, you know. The first thing that shows up is:
http://science.howstuffworks.com/question707.htm
which is actually a pretty reasonable analysis.
Regarding the water use, no it doesn't disappear, but you're taking water that could be drunk, used to grow food, wash your car, take a bath, etc., and are turning it into water vapor. Sure it'll rain somewhere. Don't you know how much water California is already "stealing" from Utah, they're really pissed about the current allocation. Potable water is a valuable resource and you'll understand that when the supply of that tightens up too.
Meanwhile, let's all have more kids and encourage more immigration, legal or otherwise.
Al - 26 Apr 2006 01:51 GMT > In addition, the manufacture of corn-based ethanol takes a tremendous > amount of water from the environment. and then it just disappears from the planet?
jim beam - 26 Apr 2006 02:41 GMT >> In addition, the manufacture of corn-based ethanol takes a tremendous >> amount of water from the environment. > > and then it just disappears from the planet? while i agree that it's not relevant, water is "lost" in ethanol production as it is consumed in production of the ethanol molecule. it's "released" again on combustion.
CC - 26 Apr 2006 06:36 GMT >>> In addition, the manufacture of corn-based ethanol takes a tremendous >>> amount of water from the environment. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >production as it is consumed in production of the ethanol molecule. >it's "released" again on combustion. Global waming also causes an increase in the water evaporated out of the ocean....(But we get all that back in rain) Then again, it causes an increase in the melting rate of the ice caps and glaciers, so the sea level keeps rising.
In the ocean it is salty, in the rain it is acidic, for drinking it is treated. So, how much energy are we additionally losing in the cycle to recover the water from burning the ethanol to purify the water to make it?
and the point is --- not one.
Ethanol provides less energy output per gallon. As one post already noted, You pay more and have to buy more at the higher price to go the same distance. And the factory that produces the ethanol gets its power from where? I have lost track of the percentages 70 % hydrocarbon based, 23 % nuclear 11.5% hydro and 0.5% other for Electricity generation????? I am sure those are not even close...
Would they use Ethanol to generate electricity to run the plant? NO. Economics, Sarbanes Oxley, and SEC requirements that publicly traded companies must maximize shareholder value which means minimizing costs.....
So, make us buy it at higher prices to go less distance (for the same volume) so they can sell more product requiring more fossil fuel to make .....and so on...
notbob - 27 Apr 2006 02:42 GMT > a vehicle as far as 1.0 gallons of gas. The earlier poster arguing > against the gas mileage drop is either biased or truly ignorant. Much would depend on the car. In my case, the Dodge van of which I spoke was susceptible to pre-detonation (knock or pinging). This severely reduces the efficiency of the engine. Loss of efficieny equals lower milage. Using E90 gasoline greatly reduced pinging under load on hot days. So, reduced pinging equals increase efficiency. A net gain or loss in mileage? Who knows. All I know is my truck ran better and I didn't "notice" a loss in mileage.
How timely is this? Popular Mechanics crunches the numbers:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/2690341.html?page=1&c=y
nb
Gordon McGrew - 28 Apr 2006 01:23 GMT >The Agri Business Lobby is the biggest booster of ethanol. It can harm >certain rubber gaskets and o rings in older autos - dissolves them. It [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >End of rant. I think what you say is pretty much correct. However, it should be mentioned that the idea of ethanol fuel is not inherently bad. Brazil has a very successful program and expects to be completely independent of imported oil soon. They use sugar cane which I think is less energy intensive to grow, harvest and process. I wonder what the economics of beets would be.
butch burton - 28 Apr 2006 15:03 GMT The basic problem with ethanol is how energy inefficient it is to produce. Cornell said it takes 129 BTU's of energy to make 100 BTU's of energy from ethanol. There is a vast world surplus of sugar just now and even with that surplus I will bet Brazil is subsidizing the hell out of their ethanol program. Sugar beets are grown for sugar production in this country in a few places becasue the US govt places strict quotas on sugar imports into the USA. If those import quotas were removed, there would not be the first sugar beet grown in the US nor would there be any cane sugar grown in FL - a very wealthy Cuban family owns the FL cane sugar business.
Also the whole business of corn sugar production would dry up - it is cheaper than cane sugar - which is a vastly better sugar - only because of the huge govt subsidy on corn. When you roll all the govt ag subsidies up together - you find a sticky web that controls the US Senate and to a lesser degree the house. The Senate is easier to buy. If anyone attempts to eliminate these welfare programs for the billion dollar agri business sector - it won't happen - too many wealthy people are dependent upon taxpayer handouts.
Gordon McGrew - 29 Apr 2006 07:55 GMT >The basic problem with ethanol is how energy inefficient it is to >produce. Cornell said it takes 129 BTU's of energy to make 100 BTU's >of energy from ethanol. There is a vast world surplus of sugar just >now and even with that surplus I will bet Brazil is subsidizing the >hell out of their ethanol program. The problem with that theory is that subsidies don't produce energy directly. Brazilian oil imports are going down while energy use is going up. The energy has to be coming from somewhere. Throwing money at ethanol production wouldn't reduce fuel imports unless there was a net gain in BTUs.
jmattis@attglobal.net - 30 Apr 2006 23:40 GMT You can hide that net gain in BTU in government budgets for a long time. Employment rises, sugar production subsidies, etc etc. The question is, are the economics right? Maybe it is in Brazil, but that doesn't mean it is right for the US.
SoCalMike - 26 Apr 2006 08:52 GMT > Meanwhile, Cuba is making plans to drill in the Gulf of Mexico, but > Congress won't let our producers do it, being fearful of the Greenies. coff (bullshit) coff...
why would they WANT to increase supply when theyre getting whatever they feel like charging now?
if you sold widgets on ebay for whatever you felt like charging, and were not having supply problems, why would you want to spend the millions to build a widget factory? that would glut the market and youd be forced to lower prices.
Gordon McGrew - 28 Apr 2006 06:02 GMT >> Meanwhile, Cuba is making plans to drill in the Gulf of Mexico, but >> Congress won't let our producers do it, being fearful of the Greenies. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >millions to build a widget factory? that would glut the market and youd >be forced to lower prices. What is blocking US drilling in the Gulf is the fact that the residents of a certain state understandably don't want drilling off their coast. That might not matter except that their governor has a brother in high office.
SoCalMike - 28 Apr 2006 20:28 GMT >>> Meanwhile, Cuba is making plans to drill in the Gulf of Mexico, but >>> Congress won't let our producers do it, being fearful of the Greenies. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > their coast. That might not matter except that their governor has a > brother in high office. there are other states in the gulf as well- louisiana, texas, etc.
the fact of it is the oil companies are happy to bring the oil over from the middle east, refine it, then charge what they feel like. and WTF are YOU gonna do about it? nothin, thats what.
then they say "ummm... its the environmentalists!" and you, as one of the lemmings, say "uhhh... okay!"
there *is no shortage*
no "gas lines", no rationing, no closed stations. just record profits.
they gotta make the money while they can, because dubya and his cronies only have a few more years of looting to go! gotta make sure they can all retire VERY comfortably, while the next administration (dem or repub) has to deal with the aftermath.
dimndsonmywndshld@yahoo.com - 30 Apr 2006 21:46 GMT > they gotta make the money while they can, because dubya and his cronies > only have a few more years of looting to go! gotta make sure they can > all retire VERY comfortably, while the next administration (dem or > repub) has to deal with the aftermath. Got to agree. It's all about greed. In a related matter, guess which former employer of our Vice Pres. managed to botch the reconstruction of a major Iraqi oil pipeline? How better to raise the price of oil than by keeping supply short? And that contract was awarded sole source of course, no competition, no scrutiny. And the contract is still in place despite non-performance.
ThomasE - 01 May 2006 05:39 GMT That is why we Europeans put strict controls on our big bad oil companies and in some cases even completely nationalized our oil industries we are trying to partially undo this now). We put our national governments in control so that the oil industry serves the interest of the people rather than the interest of a few millionaires. Result: we pay $6 per gallon for gas.
SoCalMike - 01 May 2006 06:41 GMT > That is why we Europeans put strict controls on our big bad oil companies > and in some cases even completely nationalized our oil industries we are > trying to partially undo this now). We put our national governments in > control so that the oil industry serves the interest of the people rather > than the interest of a few millionaires. Result: we pay $6 per gallon for > gas. sure... but what kind of income or sales taxes are there? hows unemployment? hows health care?
ThomasE - 01 May 2006 17:35 GMT In Europe, income tax rates vary by country but generally speaking the top marginal tax rates are somewhere between 40% to 55% in most countries and these top rates kick in at moderate incomes, somewhere between $50,000-$100,000 yearly income.
Sales tax rates in Europe (called VAT=Value Added Tax) range from 15% to 20% and there are much fewer exceptions to what is not taxed compared to the typical US sales tax (eg in the US some states do not tax services).
There are also a lot of other taxes in Europe which the consumer often does not even see. Eg. Most European cars have hefty luxury taxes on automobiles that you Americans consider average (eg. a Jeep Cherokee). Most countries have steep progressive taxes on automobile engine size. There are levys on our utility bills for national TV channels that we may never watch, and so on… a lot more indirect taxation compared to the US.
The healthcare systems are more difficult to compare although I am somewhat familiar with the subject because I work in cancer research. Most European countries have nationalized health care systems. In my experience the better ones of these systems are comparable to some of the less desirable HMO’s here in America. The PPO plans that American companies typically offer are far superior to any European national healthcare system.
I think that you are all too eager to criticize and fix an America that ain’t broken. For example, as far as profits go, the US oil industry is not the evil that it is portrayed to be (I remind you, I have nothing to do with the oil industry, I have a background in Biophysics and Computer Science and I work in cancer research). In absolute dollar terms oil industry profits may seem large but when sales volume is taken into account one finds that their profit margins are below industry average. Recent data reports an average profit margin of around 8% for the oil industry (some numbers: Shell 7.7% BP 6.8% Exxon 10.7% Chevron 10.7%) By comparison, Yahoo operates on a 45% profit margin, Citigroup on a 34% margin and so on. Pharmaceuticals and Biotech industries as a whole have an average profit margin of 19%, Banks 18%, Food 9%. Are these industries evil too?
As a European I am telling you, America aint’ broken so don’t try so hard to fix it, especially if the fixing is trying to make it like Europe, a Europe which having fallen so far behind in economic development is finally grudgingly attempting some changes. But the moment America becomes more like Europe and consequently stops pulling the world economy wagon, Europe will surely and merrily go back to its old ways.
Unfortunately, no matter what I may say, you Americans will also gradually and predictably invite government intervention in more and more aspects of your life thereby falling into the same inevitable trap that every other nation in this world has fallen. As a matter of fact you never escaped that fate, you are just earlier on in this process because this is still a new country having been colonized just 3 centuries ago.
SoCalMike - 02 May 2006 04:51 GMT > I think that you are all too eager to criticize and fix an America that > ain’t broken. > For example, as far as profits go, the US oil industry is not the evil > that it is portrayed to be (I remind you, I have nothing to do with the the secretary of energy said they expect rising gas prices for the next 3 years, until our esteemed leader leaves office.
has the price of gas in europe doubled over the past year? are italians now paying $10/gal?
because thats whats happened. gas was always under the $2 mark, usually around $1.50/gal. now its double that.
> oil industry, I have a background in Biophysics and Computer Science and I > work in cancer research). [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > around 8% for the oil industry (some numbers: Shell 7.7% BP 6.8% Exxon > 10.7% Chevron 10.7%) exxon mobil just posted record net profits last quarter... higher than walmart. thats AFTER all expenses are paid.
> By comparison, Yahoo operates on a 45% profit margin, Citigroup on a 34% > margin and so on. Pharmaceuticals and Biotech industries as a whole have > an average profit margin of 19%, Banks 18%, Food 9%. Are these industries > evil too? have they all doubled what they charge in the past year, just because they can?
pharmaceutical companies have taken a lot of flack for selling the same drugs cheaper to the rest of the world than they do to americans. which is why some americans go to canada or mexico for prescription drugs.
> As a European I am telling you, America aint’ broken so don’t try so hard > to fix it, especially if the fixing is trying to make it like Europe, a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > that fate, you are just earlier on in this process because this is still a > new country having been colonized just 3 centuries ago. butch burton - 02 May 2006 15:51 GMT Here is an interesting site which goes into the economics of ethanol - the numbers are fascinating. http://zfacts.com/p/60.html
Alex Rodriguez - 01 May 2006 22:15 GMT >my local stations just started using ethanol in their pumps (happend about 2 >weeks ago or so) they are all 10% ethanol. besides form what I've been [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >percentage of ethanol can it safely take? do any stations still use regular >gas formulations (non ethanol)? Find a new place to buy gas. Ethanol has a lower energy content, so unless the price is lower, you are getting less for your money. ------------------------ Alex
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