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Car Forum / Honda Cars / May 2006

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Ethanol in gas?

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Dr Nick - 25 Apr 2006 04:56 GMT
my local stations just started using ethanol in their pumps (happend about 2
weeks ago or so) they are all 10% ethanol. besides form what I've been
reading about it getting worse gas mileage (which I find funny, because gas
keeps going up steadly, and then one day I notice a 10% ethanol sticker, and
gas was still higher.... seems pretty fishy to me, but what can you expect
from oil companies. ) is ethanol bad for my engine (I4 2006 accord) what
percentage of ethanol can it safely take? do any stations still use regular
gas formulations (non ethanol)?

-Nick
jim beam - 25 Apr 2006 05:34 GMT
> my local stations just started using ethanol in their pumps (happend about 2
> weeks ago or so) they are all 10% ethanol. besides form what I've been
> reading about it getting worse gas mileage (which I find funny, because gas
> keeps going up steadly, and then one day I notice a 10% ethanol sticker, and
> gas was still higher.... seems pretty fishy to me, but what can you expect
> from oil companies. ) is ethanol bad for my engine (I4 2006 accord)

not specifically.

> what
> percentage of ethanol can it safely take?

up to 15% iirc.

> do any stations still use regular
> gas formulations (non ethanol)?

my local stations were pumping non-ethanol gas for a couple of weeks
[the compulsory ethanol "oxygenate" mandate has been dropped for
california], but have recently started with ethanol again.  very
distinctive change in odor, and in my case, hesitation on acceleration.
 with ethanol, my car has a very distinct "flat spot" at about 2000
rpm.  those two weeks without, the car was back to normal operation.
all this ethanol b.s. is entirely unnecessary and serves only to
"volumize" gas, i.e. you pay more for less.  dig about on api.org if you
don't believe it.  gasoline should be sold by the therm, not the gallon
- that way, all these reduced mpg games would stop.

> -Nick
TeGGeR® - 25 Apr 2006 13:00 GMT
>> my local stations just started using ethanol in their pumps (happend
>> about 2 weeks ago or so) they are all 10% ethanol. besides form what
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> up to 15% iirc.

If so, that must be recent change. All the cars I've ever seen will take up
to only 10% ethanol or 15% MTBE without alteration.

>> do any stations still use regular
>> gas formulations (non ethanol)?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> all this ethanol b.s. is entirely unnecessary and serves only to
> "volumize" gas, i.e. you pay more for less.

Not quite. It's being added because the deep-green freaks have managed
beyond all logic to convince legislators that ethanol is somehow
"environmentally friendly".

Ethanol is a non-starter without the government shoveling your taxes to the
refiners to buy the stuff. Oxygenated fuels go stale very quickly and are
tough on older cars' fuel systems.

Also, the biggest lobbyist for ethanol and ethanol subsisdies is
ArcherDanielsMidland (ADM). And just guess who America's biggest producer
(and subsidy recipient) of industrial ethanol is...?

>  dig about on api.org if
> you don't believe it.  gasoline should be sold by the therm, not the
> gallon - that way, all these reduced mpg games would stop.

For Canadian readers wishing to avoid ethanol, the only station that sells
non-ethanolized gas is Esso (Imperial Oil/ExxonMobil). They still use MTBE,
which is derived from natural gas, and they have no plans to move to
ethanol any time soon.

Signature

TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

jim beam - 26 Apr 2006 02:49 GMT
>>>my local stations just started using ethanol in their pumps (happend
>>>about 2 weeks ago or so) they are all 10% ethanol. besides form what
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> which is derived from natural gas, and they have no plans to move to
> ethanol any time soon.

mtbe still reduces mpg's, so it's just another variant of the same game.
whether it's ethanol, mtbe or some other "essential" ingredient,
selling gasoline by the therm would completely stop this, what would in
any other industry be technically referred to as, "a rip off".

back when i was an undergrad, one of the hot ticket research areas was
high temperature materials for combustion technology.  basic
thermodynamics show that the higher the combustion temperature
achieved, the better the efficiency.  but then, BOOM, suddenly, we have
NOx emissions to worry about and the dream of high thermodynamic
efficiency and significantly lower fuel consumption is forever dead.
it's strange how things always seem to work out for the oil industry
like this, isn't it?
butch burton - 26 Apr 2006 03:01 GMT
MTBE is an interesting commodity - most of it is produced by our
friends to the north - Canada.  Well when the free trade agreements
were negotiated with our neighbors in the Americas under the ageis of
Carla Hill in the Bush 1 admin, there were clauses that provided for
damages if an exporter was negatively affected by legislation passed by
the country importing the product.

MTBE was found to be a potential cancer causing agent - was removed as
a gasoline additive from US gasoline blends.  Now the US taxpayers are
being sued big time by the Canadian producers and they stand to make a
bundle.

Now guess who is on the lead team of attorneys handling the Canadian
suit against our govt - the lady who always wore the red suits - Carla
Hill - ain't it funny how the revolving door works.

Be interesting to see if anyone in our leadership calls bull sh.t on
the whole ethanol game - won't happen too much money being made here.
jim beam - 26 Apr 2006 03:15 GMT
> MTBE is an interesting commodity - most of it is produced by our
> friends to the north - Canada.  Well when the free trade agreements
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Be interesting to see if anyone in our leadership calls bull sh.t on
> the whole ethanol game - won't happen too much money being made here.

all that is true.  but the one i like the most is the one about the oil
company that [successfully] lobbied for the introduction of mtbe in
california.  it was the same firm who had a certain california
governor's wife on its board and whose refineries used a process that
happened to produce a lot of mtbe as an otherwise unwanted by-product.
ThomasE - 26 Apr 2006 08:26 GMT
Regarding the more tangible ideas presented I suggest that we all run an
experiment with our cars comparing Ethanol Gas with Non Ethanol Gas. As I
have indicated in my Apr 24, 2006 at 02:48 PM post under the title “MPG
difference with different gas?“  I, personally, have seen strong
indication of large fluctuations in gas mileage between two different
brands/gas stations that I have been monitoring lately here in Milpitas,
CA. The difference is not small. So far I have filled up a total of 6
tanks of gas (3 from each station) using my 3 different cars and noticed a
15-17%!! difference in the ethanol gas compared to the non-ethanol gas. The
magnitude of the difference surprised me.

I engaged in this experiment because I had been routinely fueling up at my
local 76 gas station for the past year or so, checking gas mileage once in
a while out of curiosity and as an indication of general engine health.
Then, in the last few months, I noticed that gas mileage on my ’98 Nissan
Frontier had dropped significantly and I started wondering if my engine
was getting out of tune. So I tried filling up at another gas station, my
local Shell station and voila! The MPG went back up to the 24.5MPG that I
remember when the truck was new. I repeated the experiment with my other
two cars, an ’88 Nissan 323 and a ’89 Honda CRX and I also noticed similar
MPG differences (15-17%).

I cannot claim to know at this point whether this is due to the ethanol or
other additives. I do know that the caloric content of ethanol is much
lower than gas so some decrease in gas mileage should be expected. Also I
do not know whether the caloric content of ethanol is converted to
mechanical energy with the same efficiency. And sure, other factors could
be at play such as driving conditions, ambient temperature, accuracy of
pump measurement etc. So I would like to encourage you to run similar
experiments as I continue my experiment so that we can collect a large
statistical sample and remove the random errors.  

I also suggest that somebody posts some ideas on how to remove other
variables from this experiment so that MPG differences can be attributed
to gasoline only. E.g. Do not compare city driving with Highway driving,
short driving with long driving etc.
In my case, with my truck, I do mostly highway driving and I noticed that
the MPG using gas from any one particular gas station is surprisingly
consistent (no more than 2-3% variation). I cannot explain the 15-17%
difference that I have recently observed between these the two gas
stations I mentioned above.

When it comes to the less tangible ideas presented, I have to confess,
that I live in the US but I am originally from Europe and still spend a
lot of time in Europe. In Europe where there is a lot more regulation by
our “benevolent” governments we pay around $6 per gallon in most European
states. The true cost of gas in Europe is more or less the same as for
every other country, that is, somewhere between $2.00 and $2.50 per gallon
which covers paying for the international price of crude, refinement costs
and various transportation costs. The rest of the price up to the $6 level
is, you guessed it, taxes that our benevolent European governments levy on
us using the power that we relinquished to them a long time ago. My
general advice to you Americans is, whatever you do, do not follow
Europe’s example. If you do, you will also deprive us Europeans of the
still rather individualistic America you have now which is the only
remaining reminder to us and the rest of the world of what our countries
could have been had we not relinquished our power as individuals to the
collectivism of the state. As to how America got to be this fortunate,
it’s another story but, from what I see, America’s individualistic
fortitude will be temporary and short lived if you do not safeguard it.
After all, wouldn’t you agree that it would be difficult for America to
avoid the fate of almost every other country in the world? So be very
weary of relinquishing power to the collective thinking of the state, it
is a one way path, a trap that almost every other country in the world has
fallen into and cannot get out of. It happens gradually as it happened for
us Europeans. For many of us Europeans America is left as the only
reminder of what our countries could have been.
Robert Mozeleski - 26 Apr 2006 23:21 GMT
This link will let you see what mileage others are getting in real life.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?action=browseList
I have been updating mine almost every time i fill up.
09/30/2005 266.40 8.009 33.3
10/07/2005 230.00 8.122 28.3
10/17/2005 225.80 7.769 29.1
10/24/2005 222.40 7.674 29.0
11/08/2005 221.90 7.658 29.0
12/14/2005 186.50 7.247 25.7
03/27/2006 236.30 8.681 27.2
04/05/2006 255.30 8.704 29.3
04/12/2006 224.40 7.521 29.8
04/25/2006 244.40 8.847 27.6

Go here first and create your own record https://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do
it graphs it out for you also.

> Regarding the more tangible ideas presented I suggest that we all run an
> experiment with our cars comparing Ethanol Gas with Non Ethanol Gas. As I
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
> us Europeans. For many of us Europeans America is left as the only
> reminder of what our countries could have been.
TeGGeR® - 26 Apr 2006 03:20 GMT
>> For Canadian readers wishing to avoid ethanol, the only station that
>> sells non-ethanolized gas is Esso (Imperial Oil/ExxonMobil). They
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> mtbe still reduces mpg's, so it's just another variant of the same
> game. whether it's ethanol, mtbe or some other "essential" ingredient,

Maybe so, but MTBE is derived from natural gas, and is a lot more
financially viable than ethanol. Ethanol only works if you rob Peter to pay
Paul.

90% of emissions were removed from auto exhaust by about the late '80s. In
spite of a 153% increase in vehicular traffic since 1970, the federal EPA
says the air is about 53% cleaner than 1970, and that's in absolute terms.

If the environuts would stop their insane fulmination about imaginary
hobgoblins, we'd still have MMT as our octane booster. It's cheaper than
MTBE or ethanol, and allows fuel to keep longer.


> selling gasoline by the therm would completely stop this, what would
> in any other industry be technically referred to as, "a rip off".
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> thermodynamics show that the higher the combustion temperature
> achieved, the better the efficiency.

I remember a brief, faddish infatuation with adiabatic technology in the
'80s. That didn't last long.

>  but then, BOOM, suddenly, we
> have NOx emissions to worry about and the dream of high thermodynamic
> efficiency and significantly lower fuel consumption is forever dead.

It was dead in the early '70s, when the EPA suddenly realized that their
focus on reducing HC was resulting in higher NO. This resulted in an about-
face in emissions regulation, and gave us EGR and lower compression ratios,
along with lower mileage and power.

Power and mileage did not begin to recover until computer engine management
came along.

> it's strange how things always seem to work out for the oil industry
> like this, isn't it?

To a point I suppose. But...

It didn't work out for them when they were told to find an alternative to
TEL.
It didn't work out for them when they were prevented by the greenies and
the NIMBYs from building new refineries.
It didn't work out for them when they were told to produce "boutique" fuels
for tiny markets.
It didn't work out for them when they were told to reduce sulfur content.

Signature

TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

jim beam - 26 Apr 2006 03:44 GMT
>>>For Canadian readers wishing to avoid ethanol, the only station that
>>>sells non-ethanolized gas is Esso (Imperial Oil/ExxonMobil). They
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> hobgoblins, we'd still have MMT as our octane booster. It's cheaper than
> MTBE or ethanol, and allows fuel to keep longer.

octane is not such an issue these days.  better combustion chamber
design has all but eliminated the serious issues that used to be such
problems with low octane gas.

>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> It was dead in the early '70s, when the EPA suddenly realized that their
> focus on reducing HC was resulting in higher NO.

which was fine if you didn't have a catalyst!

> This resulted in an about-
> face in emissions regulation, and gave us EGR and lower compression ratios,
> along with lower mileage and power.

but now we have catalysts!  and they're very effective!  so let's get
back to the pursuit of high efficiency!

> Power and mileage did not begin to recover until computer engine management
> came along.

it's definitely helped a lot, but it addresses service inefficiency, not
thermodynamic efficiency, the fundamental issue.

>>it's strange how things always seem to work out for the oil industry
>>like this, isn't it?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> for tiny markets.
> It didn't work out for them when they were told to reduce sulfur content.

yes, but this is a high stakes machiavellian game with a LOT of money at
stake.  would you believe that in my town, there's a certain industrial
interest group that pays a large retainer to an enviro-lawyer that
ostensively acts against them?  why?  because it allows them to bleat
about "unfair" market conditions and get other concessions up the wazoo.
 i'd love to be more specific, but it wouldn't be good for my career.

"boutique" fuel is what i'm talking about in my response to butch.  and
sulfur is easy enough to do.  but bleating about how hard it is allows
tax concessions on infrastructure and price increases.
SoCalMike - 26 Apr 2006 08:47 GMT
> To a point I suppose. But...
>
> It didn't work out for them when they were told to find an alternative to
> TEL.
> It didn't work out for them when they were prevented by the greenies and
> the NIMBYs from building new refineries.

excuses, excuses. excuses to charge more for gas. "its the greenies"!
its "nimby", etc. royal dutch shell closed a perfectly good refinery in
bakersfield california for no reason other than to tighten supply.

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aqCQOg0SrBF8&refer=us

> It didn't work out for them when they were told to produce "boutique" fuels
> for tiny markets.
> It didn't work out for them when they were told to reduce sulfur content.

it always works out for them. always.
Kevin McMurtrie - 26 Apr 2006 07:19 GMT
[snip]
> back when i was an undergrad, one of the hot ticket research areas was
> high temperature materials for combustion technology.  basic
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> it's strange how things always seem to work out for the oil industry
> like this, isn't it?

Engines run with some extra air around the edges of the combustion to
take care carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons, and soot.  That extra air is
what produces NOx.  The solution to that is to cool the combustion by
diluting the air/fuel mixture with exhaust.  There goes the efficiency.

Unfortunately, there's no more efficient solution at this time.  The
additional CO2 from reduced efficiency is somewhat less toxic than the
hydrocarbons or NOx from an efficient engine.

We're still lacking two critical technologies - cheap fuel cells and
cheap hydrogen storage.  Some scientists claim that near-future
nanotechnologies can make cheap fuel cell catalysts and trap hydrogen in
a safe form.  I hope so.  My Honda Accord Hybrid sure is a failure.
SoCalMike - 26 Apr 2006 08:33 GMT
> Not quite. It's being added because the deep-green freaks have managed
> beyond all logic to convince legislators that ethanol is somehow
> "environmentally friendly".

its easy to blame the greenies for everything. wrong!

if the oil companies werent making more money for selling less gas, and
the ethanol suppliers/farmers werent making money, it wouldnt have
happened. at all. ever.

same with smog checks- theyre a scam too. attrition would get rid of the
truly gross polluters.
Kevin McMurtrie - 25 Apr 2006 05:34 GMT
> my local stations just started using ethanol in their pumps (happend about 2
> weeks ago or so) they are all 10% ethanol. besides form what I've been
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> -Nick

Ethanol is fine.  It can even be good for the car as long as it doesn't
absorb enough water to separate because it dissolves some buildups that
won't dissolve in oils.  It's currently more expensive than gas because
the distribution channels aren't set up right, or at least that's the
claim.  Ethanol blends have been around as long as gasoline so I think
it's more of a scam.

It's the heavy alcohols like methanol and brake fluids that are
destructive.  They absorb into materials with so much force that they
swell up and disintegrate.
notbob - 25 Apr 2006 07:04 GMT
> my local stations just started using ethanol in their pumps (happend about 2
> weeks ago or so) they are all 10% ethanol. besides form what I've been
> reading about it getting worse gas mileage.....

Ethanol in gas is actually quite good.  I prefer it.  They've been
playing around with it for years out here in CA.  I remember back in
the early 90s, there was a build up of Beacon stations all over
NorCal.  They were the first I recall seeing 10% ethenol.  When they
initially hit the market, their ethenol blend was one point octane
higher across the range (reg, med, prem) than any other brand.  I ran
nothing but for several years.  

Finally, for some bizarre reason, Beacon took the alcohol out and went
back to stright gas, losing that one point octane advantage.  I think
it was the oil companies paying off politicos.  A couple years later,
Arco started putting 10% ethenol in their gas (no octane number
increase). That also only lasted a couple years.  Finally, the oil
companies paid off the pols at the fed level which forced that whole
MTBE bullshit on us and alcohol again went away.  

MTBE is now gone and 10% alocohol is back.  Still works great in my
'87 Si with 240K miles on it.  It worked great in my big ol' Dodge
Van, too.  That's where I could really tell what gasolines were worth
a damn and which weren't.  That big ol' V8 had an RV cam in it and was real
sensitive to crummy gas with bogus octane ratings.  On really hot days
(95-105 F) going up a 3 mile grade on my commute, the low quality
gasolines would make that sucker ping like crazy.  Gasoline-ethenol
blends always pinged less than straight gasolines.  Shell and Exxon
abosolutely sucked, despite being very high priced gas in NorCal.  The
best were gas/alky blends, Union76, non-alky Arco, and Chevron, in
that order.  

nb
Kenneth J. Harris - 25 Apr 2006 14:36 GMT
Adding up to 10% ethanol to gas is actually good.  In areas with cold
winters it eliminates the need for using dry gas additives. The ethanol
absorbs any water present in gasoline while still staying dissolved in
the gasoline so that takes care of frozen fuel line problems.  It also
helps keep the gas tank clean--it can dissolve substances that gasoline
can't.  Here in New York we have had only the ethanol blend for several
years and neither of my cars has shown any mileage decrease or any other
bad effects.

> my local stations just started using ethanol in their pumps (happend about 2
> weeks ago or so) they are all 10% ethanol. besides form what I've been
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> -Nick
jmattis@attglobal.net - 25 Apr 2006 18:19 GMT
> my local stations just started using ethanol in their pumps (happend about 2
> weeks ago or so) they are all 10% ethanol. besides form what I've been
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> -Nick

May 5, 2006.  That's when MTBE must be phased out per federal
regulations.  If your pump had MTBE before, it will now have up to 10%
ethanol.  Because MTBE has been detected in water supplies, and is a
(suspected?) carcinogen, it is no longer required.  So the billions of
dollars we consumers paid to build the MTBE production plants is now
wasted, and we'll pay additional billions to build ethanol plants.
Thirty new plants are under construction now.  The cost will be
permanently higher than MTBE use, since ethanol must be trucked to the
distribution facility and mixed into each tanker before it hits the
road.  Ethanol in pipelines doesn't work -- it absorbs a huge amount of
water in transit.  Pipelines are cheap per gallon moved, while tankers
are another story.

Most manufacturers already have completed their ethanol deliveries to
the pumps by now.  If you're not in an area that required MTBE, then
the decision to sell an ethanol blend is strictly up to the local
merchants. Financially, it is a bad move for the consumer, and i would
avoid its use if possible.

Ethanol at 10% results in a 6% loss of mileage compared to straight
gas.  You'll be back at the pump more often.  MTBE at 11% concentration
already cost you 3% in mileage, so this is just 3% more lost.
Currently, ethanol is actually more expensive than the gas that it
displaces in the blend.  So you're paying more per gallon, and getting
fewer miles.  If you have a fairly modern car, ethanol won't really
affect it's performance, only your pocketbook.

Meanwhile, Cuba is making plans to drill in the Gulf of Mexico, but
Congress won't let our producers do it, being fearful of the Greenies.
So Congress can only blame the Prez, because they've got to transfer
the heat that is rightfully on their shoulders.
notbob - 25 Apr 2006 19:43 GMT
> Thirty new plants are under construction now.  The cost will be
> permanently higher than MTBE use

Nonsense.  Ethanol in gas has been around CA for over 15 yrs, the MTBE
requirements knocking it out of the mix for a short while.  Typically,
the most popular alky blend brands, Beacon and Arco, were also the least
expensive.  Arco has gone back to ethanol and is still the least
expensive quality gas in CA.  

> merchants. Financially, it is a bad move for the consumer, and i would
> avoid its use if possible.

That's your choice.  I'll take it over straight gas every time.

> Ethanol at 10% results in a 6% loss of mileage compared to straight
> gas.  

I don't believe that.  I also don't believe ethanol prices will remain
high.  Corn grows in the US like a weed.  CA, after never having been
a major corn producer, is converting whole counties to corn
cultivation, along with building related ethanol plants.  The "corn
belt" is going to lose it's control on ethanol production and
distribution.

nb
butch burton - 25 Apr 2006 20:15 GMT
The Agri Business Lobby is the biggest booster of ethanol.  It can harm
certain rubber gaskets and o rings in older autos - dissolves them.  It
delivers less energy than straight gas.  Ethanol gets an $18 per gallon
subsidy from us taxpayers and still costs $118 per barrel - really $136
with the subsidy included.

Cornell University did a study of the efficiency of producing ethanol -
they determined it took 129 BRU's of energy - inputs ranging from
diesel fuel to till, harvest, transport and produce the stuff while
only delivering 100 BTU's.

Yes the US of A produces a whole lot of corn simply because the stuff
is so subsidized - cash price is now around $2.35 per bushel - not much
change from 40 years ago.  When Mexico opened their borders to US corn,
their local corn producers could not compete - nobody in the world can
with that price - cotton is even worse.  We have a fantastic amount of
"carry over" corn from last year still in silos around the country.
The Agri Business Lobby got the gasoline clean air bill passed last
year that would require all gasoline in the US to be adultrated with
ethanol and increase to 20% of the total blend over the next 10 years.
I suspect ethanol in gasoline causes a net degredation to our
environment after the inefficiency of the stuff along with the run off
from the additional acers of corn being planted is taken into account.

So IMHO all the whole ethanol thing boils down to is this - our
congress - both houses cow tows to the Agri Business Lobby - pure and
simple - like so many other issues - who has the money controls our
federal political system.  I know our system is "better" than most
others - wow what a mess the rest of the world must be in for that to
be true.

End of rant.
jmattis@attglobal.net - 25 Apr 2006 20:32 GMT
In addition, the manufacture of corn-based ethanol takes a tremendous
amount of water from the environment.

It is sound, accepted fact that it takes 1.5 gallons of ethanol to move
a vehicle as far as 1.0 gallons of gas.  The earlier poster arguing
against the gas mileage drop is either biased or truly ignorant.
Kenneth J. Harris - 25 Apr 2006 23:34 GMT
Perhaps you would like to give the your source for your statements that
ethanol causes a 6% mileage decrease(= 1.5 gal ethanol approximates 1
gal gas).

> In addition, the manufacture of corn-based ethanol takes a tremendous
> amount of water from the environment.
>
> It is sound, accepted fact that it takes 1.5 gallons of ethanol to move
> a vehicle as far as 1.0 gallons of gas.  The earlier poster arguing
> against the gas mileage drop is either biased or truly ignorant.
jim beam - 26 Apr 2006 02:40 GMT
> Perhaps you would like to give the your source for your statements that
> ethanol causes a 6% mileage decrease(= 1.5 gal ethanol approximates 1
> gal gas).

simple math.  ethanol has about half the calorific content of gasoline.
 factor that by the content ratio and you have your mileage decrease.

>> In addition, the manufacture of corn-based ethanol takes a tremendous
>> amount of water from the environment.
>>
>> It is sound, accepted fact that it takes 1.5 gallons of ethanol to move
>> a vehicle as far as 1.0 gallons of gas.  The earlier poster arguing
>> against the gas mileage drop is either biased or truly ignorant.
jmattis@attglobal.net - 26 Apr 2006 17:52 GMT
> Perhaps you would like to give the your source for your statements that
> ethanol causes a 6% mileage decrease(= 1.5 gal ethanol approximates 1
> gal gas).

You could Google it, you know.  The first thing that shows up is:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/question707.htm

which is actually a pretty reasonable analysis.

Regarding the water use, no it doesn't disappear, but you're taking
water that could be drunk, used to grow food, wash your car, take a
bath, etc., and are turning it into water vapor.  Sure it'll rain
somewhere.  Don't you know how much water California is already
"stealing" from Utah, they're really pissed about the current
allocation.  Potable water is a valuable resource and you'll understand
that when the supply of that tightens up too.

Meanwhile, let's all have more kids and encourage more immigration,
legal or otherwise.
Al - 26 Apr 2006 01:51 GMT
> In addition, the manufacture of corn-based ethanol takes a tremendous
> amount of water from the environment.

and then it just disappears from the planet?
jim beam - 26 Apr 2006 02:41 GMT
>> In addition, the manufacture of corn-based ethanol takes a tremendous
>> amount of water from the environment.
>
> and then it just disappears from the planet?

while i agree that it's not relevant, water is "lost" in ethanol
production as it is consumed in production of the ethanol molecule.
it's "released" again on combustion.
CC - 26 Apr 2006 06:36 GMT
>>> In addition, the manufacture of corn-based ethanol takes a tremendous
>>> amount of water from the environment.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>production as it is consumed in production of the ethanol molecule.
>it's "released" again on combustion.

Global waming also causes an increase in the water evaporated out of
the ocean....(But we get all that back in rain)
Then again, it causes an increase in the melting rate of the ice caps
and glaciers, so the sea level keeps rising.

In the ocean it is salty, in the rain it is acidic, for drinking it is
treated.  So, how much energy are we additionally losing in the cycle
to recover the water from burning the ethanol to purify the water to
make it?

and the point is  --- not one.

Ethanol provides less energy output per gallon.  As one post already
noted, You pay more and have to buy more at the higher price to go the
same distance.  And the factory that produces the ethanol gets its
power from where?   I have lost track of the percentages   70 %
hydrocarbon based, 23 % nuclear 11.5% hydro and  0.5% other for
Electricity generation?????  I am sure those are not even close...

Would they use Ethanol to generate electricity to run the plant?
NO.  Economics, Sarbanes Oxley, and SEC requirements that publicly
traded companies must maximize shareholder value which means
minimizing costs.....

So, make us buy it at higher prices to go less distance (for the same
volume) so they can sell more product requiring more fossil fuel to
make .....and so on...
notbob - 27 Apr 2006 02:42 GMT
> a vehicle as far as 1.0 gallons of gas.  The earlier poster arguing
> against the gas mileage drop is either biased or truly ignorant.

Much would depend on the car.  In my case, the Dodge van of which I
spoke was susceptible to pre-detonation (knock or pinging).  This
severely reduces the efficiency of the engine.  Loss of efficieny
equals lower milage.  Using E90 gasoline greatly reduced pinging under
load on hot days.  So, reduced pinging equals increase efficiency.  A
net gain or loss in mileage?  Who knows.  All I know is my truck ran
better and I didn't "notice" a loss in mileage.  

How timely is this?  Popular Mechanics crunches the numbers:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/2690341.html?page=1&c=y

nb
Gordon McGrew - 28 Apr 2006 01:23 GMT
>The Agri Business Lobby is the biggest booster of ethanol.  It can harm
>certain rubber gaskets and o rings in older autos - dissolves them.  It
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
>End of rant.

I think what you say is pretty much correct.  However, it should be
mentioned that the idea of ethanol fuel is not inherently bad.  Brazil
has a very successful program and expects to be completely independent
of imported oil soon.  They use sugar cane which I think is less
energy intensive to grow, harvest and process.  I wonder what the
economics of beets would be.
butch burton - 28 Apr 2006 15:03 GMT
The basic problem with ethanol is how energy inefficient it is to
produce.  Cornell said it takes 129 BTU's of energy to make 100 BTU's
of energy from ethanol.  There is a vast world surplus of sugar just
now and even with that surplus I will bet Brazil is subsidizing the
hell out of their ethanol program.  Sugar beets are grown for sugar
production in this country in a few places becasue the US govt places
strict quotas on sugar imports into the USA.  If those import quotas
were removed, there would not be the first sugar beet grown in the US
nor would there be any cane sugar grown in FL - a very wealthy Cuban
family owns the FL cane sugar business.

Also the whole business of corn sugar production would dry up - it is
cheaper than cane sugar - which is a vastly better sugar - only because
of the huge govt subsidy on corn.  When you roll all the govt ag
subsidies up together - you find a sticky web that controls the US
Senate and to a lesser degree the house.  The Senate is easier to buy.
If anyone attempts to eliminate these welfare programs for the billion
dollar agri business sector - it won't happen - too many wealthy people
are dependent upon taxpayer handouts.
Gordon McGrew - 29 Apr 2006 07:55 GMT
>The basic problem with ethanol is how energy inefficient it is to
>produce.  Cornell said it takes 129 BTU's of energy to make 100 BTU's
>of energy from ethanol.  There is a vast world surplus of sugar just
>now and even with that surplus I will bet Brazil is subsidizing the
>hell out of their ethanol program.

The problem with that theory is that subsidies don't produce energy
directly.  Brazilian oil imports are going down while energy use is
going up.  The energy has to be coming from somewhere.  Throwing money
at ethanol production wouldn't reduce fuel imports unless there was a
net gain in BTUs.
jmattis@attglobal.net - 30 Apr 2006 23:40 GMT
You can hide that net gain in BTU in government budgets for a long
time.  Employment rises, sugar production subsidies, etc etc.  The
question is, are the economics right?  Maybe it is in Brazil, but that
doesn't mean it is right for the US.
SoCalMike - 26 Apr 2006 08:52 GMT
> Meanwhile, Cuba is making plans to drill in the Gulf of Mexico, but
> Congress won't let our producers do it, being fearful of the Greenies.

coff (bullshit) coff...

why would they WANT to increase supply when theyre getting whatever they
feel like charging now?

if you sold widgets on ebay for whatever you felt like charging, and
were not having supply problems, why would you want to spend the
millions to build a widget factory? that would glut the market and youd
be forced to lower prices.
Gordon McGrew - 28 Apr 2006 06:02 GMT
>> Meanwhile, Cuba is making plans to drill in the Gulf of Mexico, but
>> Congress won't let our producers do it, being fearful of the Greenies.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>millions to build a widget factory? that would glut the market and youd
>be forced to lower prices.

What is blocking US drilling in the Gulf is the fact that the
residents of a certain state understandably don't want drilling off
their coast. That might not matter except that their governor has a
brother in high office.
SoCalMike - 28 Apr 2006 20:28 GMT
>>> Meanwhile, Cuba is making plans to drill in the Gulf of Mexico, but
>>> Congress won't let our producers do it, being fearful of the Greenies.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> their coast. That might not matter except that their governor has a
> brother in high office.

there are other states in the gulf as well- louisiana, texas, etc.

the fact of it is the oil companies are happy to bring the oil over from
the middle east, refine it, then charge what they feel like. and WTF are
YOU gonna do about it? nothin, thats what.

then they say "ummm... its the environmentalists!" and you, as one of
the lemmings, say "uhhh... okay!"

there *is no shortage*

no "gas lines", no rationing, no closed stations. just record profits.

they gotta make the money while they can, because dubya and his cronies
only have a few more years of looting to go! gotta make sure they can
all retire VERY comfortably, while the next administration (dem or
repub) has to deal with the aftermath.
dimndsonmywndshld@yahoo.com - 30 Apr 2006 21:46 GMT
> they gotta make the money while they can, because dubya and his cronies
> only have a few more years of looting to go! gotta make sure they can
> all retire VERY comfortably, while the next administration (dem or
> repub) has to deal with the aftermath.

Got to agree. It's all about greed.
In a related matter, guess which former employer of our Vice Pres.
managed to botch the reconstruction of a major Iraqi oil pipeline? How
better to raise the price of oil than by keeping supply short? And that
contract was awarded sole source of course, no competition, no
scrutiny. And the contract is still in place despite non-performance.
ThomasE - 01 May 2006 05:39 GMT
That is why we Europeans put strict controls on our big bad oil companies
and in some cases even completely nationalized our oil industries we are
trying to partially undo this now). We put our national governments in
control so that the oil industry serves the interest of the people rather
than the interest of a few millionaires. Result: we pay $6 per gallon for
gas.
SoCalMike - 01 May 2006 06:41 GMT
> That is why we Europeans put strict controls on our big bad oil companies
> and in some cases even completely nationalized our oil industries we are
> trying to partially undo this now). We put our national governments in
> control so that the oil industry serves the interest of the people rather
> than the interest of a few millionaires. Result: we pay $6 per gallon for
> gas.

sure... but what kind of income or sales taxes are there? hows
unemployment? hows health care?
ThomasE - 01 May 2006 17:35 GMT
In Europe, income tax rates vary by country but generally speaking the top
marginal tax rates are somewhere between 40% to 55% in most countries and
these top rates kick in at moderate incomes, somewhere between
$50,000-$100,000 yearly income.

Sales tax rates in Europe (called VAT=Value Added Tax) range from 15% to
20% and there are much fewer exceptions to what is not taxed compared to
the typical US sales tax (eg in the US some states do not tax services).

There are also a lot of other taxes in Europe which the consumer often
does not even see. Eg. Most European cars have hefty luxury taxes on
automobiles that you Americans consider average (eg. a Jeep Cherokee).
Most countries have steep progressive taxes on automobile engine size.
There are levys on our utility bills for national TV channels that we may
never watch, and so on… a lot more indirect taxation compared to the US.

The healthcare systems are more difficult to compare although I am
somewhat familiar with the subject because I work in cancer research. Most
European countries have nationalized health care systems. In my experience
the better ones of these systems are comparable to some of the less
desirable HMO’s here in America. The PPO plans that American companies
typically offer are far superior to any European national healthcare
system.

I think that you are all too eager to criticize and fix an America that
ain’t broken.
For example, as far as profits go, the US oil industry is not the evil
that it is portrayed to be (I remind you, I have nothing to do with the
oil industry, I have a background in Biophysics and Computer Science and I
work in cancer research).
In absolute dollar terms oil industry profits may seem large but when
sales volume is taken into account one finds that their profit margins are
below industry average. Recent data reports an average profit margin of
around 8% for the oil industry (some numbers: Shell 7.7% BP 6.8% Exxon
10.7% Chevron 10.7%)
By comparison, Yahoo operates on a 45% profit margin, Citigroup on a 34%
margin and so on. Pharmaceuticals and Biotech industries as a whole have
an average profit margin of 19%, Banks 18%, Food 9%. Are these industries
evil too?

As a European I am telling you, America aint’ broken so don’t try so hard
to fix it, especially if the fixing is trying to make it like Europe, a
Europe which having fallen so far behind in economic development is
finally grudgingly attempting some changes. But the moment America becomes
more like Europe and consequently stops pulling the world economy wagon,
Europe will surely and merrily go back to its old ways.

Unfortunately, no matter what I may say, you Americans will also gradually
and predictably invite government intervention in more and more aspects of
your life thereby falling into the same inevitable trap that every other
nation in this world has fallen. As a matter of fact you never escaped
that fate, you are just earlier on in this process because this is still a
new country having been colonized just 3 centuries ago.
SoCalMike - 02 May 2006 04:51 GMT
> I think that you are all too eager to criticize and fix an America that
> ain’t broken.
> For example, as far as profits go, the US oil industry is not the evil
> that it is portrayed to be (I remind you, I have nothing to do with the

the secretary of energy said they expect rising gas prices for the next
3 years, until our esteemed leader leaves office.

has the price of gas in europe doubled over the past year? are italians
now paying $10/gal?

because thats whats happened. gas was always under the $2 mark, usually
around $1.50/gal. now its double that.

> oil industry, I have a background in Biophysics and Computer Science and I
> work in cancer research).
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> around 8% for the oil industry (some numbers: Shell 7.7% BP 6.8% Exxon
> 10.7% Chevron 10.7%)

exxon mobil just posted record net profits last quarter... higher than
walmart. thats AFTER all expenses are paid.

> By comparison, Yahoo operates on a 45% profit margin, Citigroup on a 34%
> margin and so on. Pharmaceuticals and Biotech industries as a whole have
> an average profit margin of 19%, Banks 18%, Food 9%. Are these industries
> evil too?

have they all doubled what they charge in the past year, just because
they can?

pharmaceutical companies have taken a lot of flack for selling the same
drugs cheaper to the rest of the world than they do to americans. which
is why some americans go to canada or mexico for prescription drugs.

> As a European I am telling you, America aint’ broken so don’t try so hard
> to fix it, especially if the fixing is trying to make it like Europe, a
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> that fate, you are just earlier on in this process because this is still a
> new country having been colonized just 3 centuries ago.
butch burton - 02 May 2006 15:51 GMT
Here is an interesting site which goes into the economics of ethanol -
the numbers are fascinating.  
http://zfacts.com/p/60.html
Alex Rodriguez - 01 May 2006 22:15 GMT
>my local stations just started using ethanol in their pumps (happend about 2
>weeks ago or so) they are all 10% ethanol. besides form what I've been
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>percentage of ethanol can it safely take? do any stations still use regular
>gas formulations (non ethanol)?

Find a new place to buy gas.  Ethanol has a lower energy content, so unless the
price is lower, you are getting less for your money.  
------------------------
Alex
 
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