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Car Forum / Honda Cars / May 2006TeGGeR's injector problems...
I had the Motorvac service done today by a local Canadian Tire franchise. Stupid, stupid me. I figured, how bad could they possibly f.ck up something that simple? (I've never said "f.ck" before, have I?) Well, the monkey they'd hired DID f.ck it up that bad ("but he's been a mechanic for 15 years!"). Word to the wise: DO NOT patronize Canadian Tire. They hire the same moronic simians AutoZone does. Y'see, AutoStupe does not do business in Canada, so the grunting Neanderthal knuckle-draggers that happen to be Canadian residents get jobs with Crappy Tire instead of AutoStupe. Not only did the monkey botch the job badly, the manager gave me my money back AND offered to pay me (at his shop rate) whatever it took me to fix my back seat, which the monkey *really* messed up in his misguided attempt at accessing the fuel pump. I will charge him 3 hours at $70 per hour. Let's see how well that goes over... WAY too much detail to write here. The basics: Pictures of back seat removal here: http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/fuel-pump_back-seat/ These are straight off the camera, no Photoshopping or captions. I'm too exhausted to do that right now. It took me two hours just to bend the back seat cushion bars straight again so everything worked properly and there was no looseness. That back seat is pretty flimsy. It weighs about ten pounds. It's basically a wire perimeter with foam formed around it and a fabric skin. I must have had it in and out at least 18 times before it fit properly again. The monkey tried to remove the back seat to get at the fuel pump. All he did was wreck things because he didn't know how it went together. He never did get at the fuel pump. Oh, and the Motorvac service? It made the vibration WORSE. We definitely have a fuel delivery problem here.  SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > Not only did the monkey botch the job badly, the manager gave me my > money back AND offered to pay me (at his shop rate) whatever it took > me to fix my back seat, which the monkey *really* messed up in his > misguided attempt at accessing the fuel pump. I will charge him 3 > hours at $70 per hour. Let's see how well that goes over... I ended up getting sixty bucks worth of free stuff. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>Not only did the monkey botch the job badly, the manager gave me my >>money back AND offered to pay me (at his shop rate) whatever it took [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I ended up getting sixty bucks worth of free stuff. Hmmm, maybe some really good Motomaster spark plugs and wires?? :) Man, that sucks... I'd ALMOST have sympathy for ya, but you REALLY should have known better in the first place... --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0618-0, 05/02/2006 Tested on: 5/2/2006 10:23:55 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com >>>Not only did the monkey botch the job badly, the manager gave me my >>>money back AND offered to pay me (at his shop rate) whatever it took [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Hmmm, maybe some really good Motomaster spark plugs and wires?? :) Eleven quarts of Castrol 5W-30 and two bottles of STP injector cleaner. I wouldn't buy that Motomaster crap. > Man, that sucks... I'd ALMOST have sympathy for ya, but you REALLY > should have known better in the first place... Yeah, I know. But Motorvac isn't common where I live. Crappy Tire was one of only four places, and the other three I trusted even less. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>Man, that sucks... I'd ALMOST have sympathy for ya, but you REALLY >>should have known better in the first place... > > Yeah, I know. But Motorvac isn't common where I live. Crappy Tire was one > of only four places, and the other three I trusted even less. Stupid question then, but what's "Motorvac"? Sounds like a name for a techno band. --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0618-0, 05/02/2006 Tested on: 5/2/2006 11:15:59 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com >>>Man, that sucks... I'd ALMOST have sympathy for ya, but you REALLY >>>should have known better in the first place... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Stupid question then, but what's "Motorvac"? Sounds like a name for a > techno band. Motorvac is an on-car injector/top end cleaning procedure. It uses a special machine and a powerful solvent. The brand used to be owned by Snap- On. I forget who owns it now. After much investigation, it looks like it's the injectors themselves that's causing the problem. I have to find a place that can do an "injector pressure-drop test", which will tell me whether the injectors are all firing the same or not. If one is out of sync with the others, they'll have to come out for bench testing. In retrospect, I guess I'm lucky. In 15 years and 266,000 miles, this is the very first driveability problem I've ever had with this car. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>>>Man, that sucks... I'd ALMOST have sympathy for ya, but you REALLY >>>>should have known better in the first place... [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > In retrospect, I guess I'm lucky. In 15 years and 266,000 miles, this is > the very first driveability problem I've ever had with this car. if it were my car, i'd go straight for the "remove for cleaning" phase. ultrasonic cleaning plus solvents should do the trick. and if not, there are aftermarket performance injectors that work well and aren't outrageously expensive. for the future, i'd be a lot more generous with injector cleaner. i know gas is supposed to have a degree of detergency from the pump, but auto manufacturers are having consistent reliability problems because the detergency level rules were relaxed a few years ago and vehicles are now gumming up all the time. one could go into the whole paranoia about oilco's and the benefits of both saving ingredient costs and gummed up injection systems causing reduced gas mileage, but that would be way off base... > if it were my car, i'd go straight for the "remove for cleaning" > phase. That will likely be the next step. But first I want to eliminate as many other variables as possible. I'm not sure cleaning will do anything, frankly. Two Motorvacs have had no effect. I think the problem is electrical. My mechanic says that's the most common injector failure mode. We'll see. > ultrasonic cleaning plus solvents should do the trick. and if not, > there are aftermarket performance injectors that work well and aren't > outrageously expensive. > > for the future, i'd be a lot more generous with injector cleaner. I plan to be. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> if it were my car, i'd go straight for the "remove for cleaning" >> phase. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >We'll see. I know people who have had multiple injector failures with Nissans and GMs and they have always been electrical. Other than those two manufacturers, I can't recall too many cases of injector failures. Specifically I can't recall ever of hearing of a Honda injector failure before. >>>if it were my car, i'd go straight for the "remove for cleaning" >>>phase. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Specifically I can't recall ever of hearing of a Honda injector > failure before. Well, there's a first time for everything... trust TeGGeR to be the one! :) --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0618-3, 05/05/2006 Tested on: 5/7/2006 6:51:46 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com > > Specifically I can't recall ever of hearing of a Honda injector > > failure before. > > Well, there's a first time for everything... trust TeGGeR to be the one! :) Nope, TeGGeR is not the first. ALL early Integras had defective injectors. Production in 1986, 1987 and maybe into 1988. Mostly they worked for around 50K to 60K miles. I used Techron on a routine basis and got about 95K out of mine. Had to replace all 4. Honda should have covered this since all these cars came back for the same problem. Techs. were well versed in the replacement procedure. I recall buying the parts for about $50 or $60 each at the time. I recall going thru all the same diagnostics before determining the injectors had to go. I had to pay for 1 hour in labor for diagnosis, but the techs were pretty sure they know what was up. So I provided some parts and they did some useful work inside the hour. >> > Specifically I can't recall ever of hearing of a Honda injector >> > failure before. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > replacement procedure. I recall buying the parts for about $50 or $60 > each at the time. Well, there's an update. My injectors appear to have been just fine. I replaced them to no change at all in the vibration. See the thread in rec.autos.tech for more. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > Well, there's an update. My injectors appear to have been > just fine. I > replaced them to no change at all in the vibration. See > the thread in > rec.autos.tech for more. Have you ruled out the oxygen sensor? >> Well, there's an update. My injectors appear to have been >> just fine. I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Have you ruled out the oxygen sensor? Good point. I just called my guy and he says it's definitely not the oxygen sensor. Now he's saying...maybe it is...one of the engine mounts. We've already ruled out the front mount, which leaves the rear (a *PIG* to get at...) or one of the side mounts. They're $100 each. I wanna see what Comboverfish says. I'm also mulling over letting the dealer try their hand at it... Nobody's posted to the thread in rec.autos.tech yet. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >>> Well, there's an update. My injectors appear to have [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > (a *PIG* to get at...) or one of the side mounts. They're > $100 each. Yet I noticed you felt there were a lot of signs that it was electrical in nature... I hope this mystery is solved soon! > I wanna see what Comboverfish says. I'm also mulling over > letting the > dealer try their hand at it... > > Nobody's posted to the thread in rec.autos.tech yet. Yes, I'm still watching the rec.autos.tech thread. Was looking at your FAQ site and see a bunch of people have since submitted to the "Readers' Rides" section. Nice. Also, interesting: Black seems to be the color of choice for Honda enthusiasts. My Civic is black, too. More importantly, I just emailed Merle (listed at the Readers' Rides site) about his new control arm bushings. I am having second thoughts about the Mugen's, based on J. Beam's comments that they're harsher than he likes, and want to see what Merle has and how they feel. > More importantly, I just emailed Merle (listed at the > Readers' Rides site) about his new control arm bushings. I > am having second thoughts about the Mugen's, based on J. > Beam's comments that they're harsher than he likes, and want > to see what Merle has and how they feel. When I replaced my rears, I went with OEM for the very reason that I didn't want the squeaks and harsh ride you tend to get with urethane bushings. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >> More importantly, I just emailed Merle (listed at the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > want the squeaks and harsh ride you tend to get with > urethane bushings. I have ruled out the urethanes for this reason. Also, I suspect they're tougher to install using amateur shop tools. But the Mugen's are supposed to be simply harder rubber. OTOH, a site you mentioned here some time ago (http://www.performanceforum.com/wesvann/honda/bushing/bushing.html) suggests that the Mugen's and Honda OEM are now the same. The Mugen's are about $10 cheaper (per front lower control arm set) than what I'll pay for ones from cheapesthondaparts.com and slhonda.com. At this point I think I'll just pop each control arm into a 150 degree F oven for a half hour and see if that heats it enough to do as JT (= poster "Grumpy") said, re installing the bushings. Probably also refrigerate the bushings themselves for an hour. Back to your car's accelerating vibration problem... >>>More importantly, I just emailed Merle (listed at the >>>Readers' Rides site) about his new control arm bushings. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > (http://www.performanceforum.com/wesvann/honda/bushing/bushing.html) > suggests that the Mugen's and Honda OEM are now the same. the mugen bushings /are/ rubber and they're an *exact* pattern fit. none of the urethane squeaks. but the mugen rubber is definitely harder - i've used them. there was some durometer reading info out there on the net a while back, but i didn't save the link. even if you didn't have that info, prodding the two different rubbers with a screwdriver gives obvious differences. driving - the contrast is huge. great on a nice smooth track, but much too harsh for my taste on the crappy roads we have around here. > The Mugen's are about $10 cheaper (per front lower control > arm set) than what I'll pay for ones from [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Back to your car's accelerating vibration problem... >>>Well, there's an update. My injectors appear to have been >>>just fine. I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > We've already ruled out the front mount, which leaves the rear > (a *PIG* to get at...) or one of the side mounts. They're $100 each. not even a piglet - looks are deceiving. and you don't need a bearing press - it's basically just 4 bolts. the big center bolt is best tackled with an air ratchet since there's very limited swing arc available for a conventional wrench, but the ratchet snugs up in there just like the gap was made for it. which it probably was. the 3 little bolts are loctited in there, so they need cracking loose - make sure you use 6-sided flank drive sockets. other than that, two universal joints and a couple of extensions, for the one tricky one, and you're set. if it takes you an hour, it'll only be because it's your first time or because there's crash damage bent the frame. don't neglect the front mounts either. if you want to be economic, the two main side mounts are often ok enough to leave. > I wanna see what Comboverfish says. I'm also mulling over letting the > dealer try their hand at it... > > Nobody's posted to the thread in rec.autos.tech yet. I quickly scanned all posts, so if I missed these things, I apologize. Does your car display same "vibration" etc. while not moving i.e. revving @ standstill? I don't know Canadian law, so does your car have a catalytic converter? Is it automatic, or stick shift? > I quickly scanned all posts, so if I missed these things, I apologize. > Does your car display same "vibration" etc. while not moving i.e. > revving @ standstill? Haven't tried that yet, but will today. I don't anticipate any vibration, as there would be no load on the engine. All details here: http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/help.html > I don't know Canadian law, so does your car have > a catalytic converter? Canadian emissions law is virtually identical to US law, actually. Yes there is a cat and O2 sensor. My engine controls are identical to a US model's. > Is it automatic, or stick shift? Manual. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ I am not a professional auto tech, so just putting some things out there for thought. 1. Possible restricted catalytic converter? 2. A dynamic timing problem? 3. items 1 & 2 could go hand in hand. 4. clutch chattering / very slight slipping @ higher rev's? Not enough to notice on tach, but enough to feel? > After much investigation, it looks like it's the injectors > themselves [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > others, they'll have > to come out for bench testing. Tegger, this testing sounds like it's going to be expensive. Why not just replace the injectors? Seems like a remanned set of four may be had for under $200 U.S. What's your overall plan of attack here, assuming you go ahead with testing and the tests indicate ___ is bad? Obviously I'm not an expert. I am following the thread on this at rec.autos.tech , where I don't see anyone suggesting similar, so I must be missing something. Just curious about all this and trying to learn. >> After much investigation, it looks like it's the injectors >> themselves [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Why not just replace the injectors? Seems like a remanned > set of four may be had for under $200 U.S. Testing might not be that expensive, I don't know. First I have to phone around for somebody who even does that kind of thing. > What's your overall plan of attack here, assuming you go > ahead with testing and the tests indicate ___ is bad? 1) Cooling system service 2) Check TPS again 3) Injector testing So far NOTHING's tested bad. Comboverfish has objections to the factory- specified test methods, and he's pretty knowledgeable, so I'll recheck stuff his way just to be sure. This weekend I'm doing my yearly cooling system sereice, and will replace the thermostat and temp sender. Just in case. Just today I learned that my fuel pressure is absolutely perfect: 40 psi. The acceptable range is 37-44 psi. So that's one more thing that doesn't seem to be wrong. I'll check the TPS again (properly this time; Comboverfish was right about the wrong wire I was checking). Frankly I'm not anticipating that it will be found to be bad. The symptoms are wrong for a bad TPS anyway. If the TPS is good, it will be time to investigate the injectors, as that will be the last thing left. Personally, I have a hunch it will turn out to be a weak coil on one of the injectors. Hmm... I never checked ignition timing. It was spot-on last time I looked. I'll check that too just to be sure. > Obviously I'm not an expert. I am following the thread on > this at rec.autos.tech , where I don't see anyone suggesting > similar, so I must be missing something. Just curious about > all this and trying to learn. So am I. It's not like an old non-emissions carburetor and Kettering distributor, which was pretty simple to figure out. I won't post back to rec.autos.tech until I check the TPS peoperly. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> After much investigation, it looks like it's the injectors >> themselves [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Why not just replace the injectors? Seems like a remanned > set of four may be had for under $200 U.S. Guess what? I just got a set of injectors. OEM. for $10 per injector. I called a local U-Pull wrecker's this morning after doing the cooling system over the weekend (which had no effect). They had maybe a dozen Integras of various years there, and I was invited to go back and have a look. The parts counterman said they cost about $90 new, so I could have them for $10 each! He obviously hasn't ever priced new OEM Keihin injectors! My guy told me I could use injectors from either an '88-'89 Prelude, or a '90-91 Integra, all of which use the same part number. I ended up finding a '91 Integra GS with about 95,000 miles on it (yeah, 95K), and grabbed those. Most of the other Integras were all up around 150-190K miles. > What's your overall plan of attack here, assuming you go > ahead with testing and the tests indicate ___ is bad? The next step is those injectors. I have to wait 'till tomorrow, when I will acquire a new set of rubber sealing rings. If new injectors don't fix this, I'm only out about $60 total and I will have almost-new injectors, so it's worth a gamble. There will be pictures, of course. Stay tuned... SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote snip for brevity all comments noted > The next step is those injectors. I have to wait 'till > tomorrow, when I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > There will be pictures, of course. Stay tuned... You bet. Good job at the U-Pull Wreckers. Sounds like a good investment to me. I look forward to your update. I too had luck at my local Honda junkyard this past Saturday. Amazingly, I quickly located a bent control arm, literally just lying around, for my suspension renovation project. After some false starts, today I made real progress pulling this old control arm's larger bushing. I am not quite there yet. I will update in the other thread I have going on this. Hopefully I will have a methodology for the amateur (based of course on much input here) that is not too labor intensive nor does it require a mega-ton hydraulic shop press. > "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote > snip for brevity all comments noted [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > labor intensive nor does it require a mega-ton hydraulic > shop press. I'm watching that. The machine shop that did my bushings last year has gone T.U., so I was contemplating pushing them in and out myself. I was just going to use a 6" bench vise and some heat. I was going to heat up the control arm with a torch (gently), and put the new bushings in the freezer for a while, kind of like what they do when replacing a ring gear on a flywheel. Last year the machinist told me the smaller bushings on the rear came out very easily with an air chisel because they were so small. The big ones needed much of the capacity of the press he used. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ TeGGeR® wrote:> Matt Ion <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote i > news:LZX5g.110512$WI1.16582@pd7tw2no >>>TeGGeR® wrote > >>Stupid question then, but what's "Motorvac"? Sounds like a name for >>techno band > Motorvac is an on-car injector/top end cleaning procedure. It uses > special machine and a powerful solvent. The brand used to be owned by Snap > On. I forget who owns it now > After much investigation, it looks like it's the injectors themselve > that's causing the problem. I have to find a place that can do an "injecto > pressure-drop test", which will tell me whether the injectors are al > firing the same or not. If one is out of sync with the others, they'll hav > to come out for bench testing > In retrospect, I guess I'm lucky. In 15 years and 266,000 miles, this i > the very first driveability problem I've ever had with this car if it were my car, i'd go straight for the "remove for cleaning" phase ultrasonic cleaning plus solvents should do the trick. and if not there are aftermarket performance injectors that work well and aren' outrageously expensive for the future, i'd be a lot more generous with injector cleaner. know gas is supposed to have a degree of detergency from the pump, bu auto manufacturers are having consistent reliability problems becaus the detergency level rules were relaxed a few years ago and vehicles ar now gumming up all the time. one could go into the whole paranoia abou oilco's and the benefits of both saving ingredient costs and gummed u injection systems causing reduced gas mileage, but that would be way of base.. say TeggeR out of curiousity what make of car are you having your trouble with -- johnin |
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