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Car Forum / Honda Cars / June 2006you think chery is next honda?
hondas are amazing cars...but what do you think about chinese cars like zhonghua and chery....china will eventually create better engines and styling methods than japanese.. check http://www.chinacarforums.com > hondas are amazing cars...but what do you think about chinese cars like > zhonghua and chery....china will eventually create better engines and > styling methods than japanese.. No they won't. Red China couldn't wipe its own a.s if they didn't have somebody to copy. The Red Chinese produced the most godawful sh.t before Westerners went over there to tell them how to do things, and if we ever go away, they will return to making godawful sh.t. Their culture doesn't support innovation and quality. I do think Chery will be the next Hyundai Pony...  SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > > hondas are amazing cars...but what do you think about chinese cars like > > zhonghua and chery....china will eventually create better engines and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > return to making godawful sh.t. Their culture doesn't support innovation > and quality. Americans said that about the Japanese, and the Japanese say that about the Koreans. > > > hondas are amazing cars...but what do you think about chinese cars like > > > zhonghua and chery....china will eventually create better engines and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Americans said that about the Japanese, and the Japanese say that about > the Koreans. You're right. We're going to rue the day that we sent manufacturing overseas. Hope I don't live long enough to see it... JT >>>> hondas are amazing cars...but what do you think about chinese cars like >>>> zhonghua and chery....china will eventually create better engines and [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > JT bound to happen, though. wherever things are made, if they can be made cheaper elsewhere, they will. >> > hondas are amazing cars...but what do you think about chinese cars >> > like zhonghua and chery....china will eventually create better [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Americans said that about the Japanese, and the Japanese say that > about the Koreans. Well yeah, but China is still Communist, which Korea and Japan never were. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > >> The Red Chinese produced the most godawful sh.t before Westerners > >> went over there to tell them how to do things, and if we ever go [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Well yeah, but China is still Communist, which Korea and Japan never were. In the day and age of the mighty dollar, where people whine about no jobs but go to Wal-Mart because it's "cheaper," that simply doesn't matter. >> >> The Red Chinese produced the most godawful sh.t before Westerners >> >> went over there to tell them how to do things, and if we ever go [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > In the day and age of the mighty dollar, where people whine about no > jobs but go to Wal-Mart because it's "cheaper," People have done that since the days of the village smithy. > that simply doesn't > matter. It does. Japan eventually figured out how to make stuff really well. The Commies never figured out how to make a good Yugo or Trabant. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > > that simply doesn't > > matter. > > It does. Japan eventually figured out how to make stuff really well. The > Commies never figured out how to make a good Yugo or Trabant. That's because they didn't have the US as a market before. If you think China is nothing but communist and that they don't play in the capitalist game, you're naive. They are in the capitalist game to stay, and to win. >> > that simply doesn't >> > matter. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >the capitalist game, you're naive. They are in the capitalist game to >stay, and to win. And they will be doing well at it. More and more we see western trained employees forming their own companies and competing head to head with the original company. As the controls from the government lessen you will see more Chinese pushing into the market. We are just training them the same we did with the Japanese, and now the Japanese tend to be much better at manufacturing (delivering a quality product at a cheap price) than the USA. I could see the same thing happening with the Chinese. >> > that simply doesn't >> > matter. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > in the capitalist game, you're naive. They are in the capitalist game > to stay, and to win. I disagree. You cannot have a centrally-controlled economy that is a free economy. People get rich when an economy is free. Centrally controlled economies are poor economies. China is poor and will stay poor forever so long as their government insists on central control. WE are the ones who benefit on on the backs of the Chinese people. Our dollar goes farther, and their the ones subsisting on a cup of rice a day. See my other most recent post. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > > If you think China is nothing but communist and that they don't play > > in the capitalist game, you're naive. They are in the capitalist game > > to stay, and to win. > > I disagree. You cannot have a centrally-controlled economy that is a free > economy. People get rich when an economy is free. Nobody said they were going to play the capitalist game by our rules. But make no mistake: the central government is going to flex its economic powers in a very capitalistic way. In some ways, they'll be like Japan where economic power is managed very centrally (MITI). > > > If you think China is nothing but communist and that they don't play > > > in the capitalist game, you're naive. They are in the capitalist game [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > economic powers in a very capitalistic way. In some ways, they'll be > like Japan where economic power is managed very centrally (MITI). The weakest part of the Japanese and Chinese economies is their banking systems. In Japan, the central bank's continuous policy of maintaining low interest rates allows little wiggle room for flexing economic conditions worldwide. China, OTOH, maintains an artificially low currency value which sooner or later will have to be resolved and along with that will come a (maybe temporary) setback to their economy. JT > Centrally controlled economies are poor economies. Tell that to Japan's MITI and titans of industry. > >> > that simply doesn't > >> > matter. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > -- > TeGGeR® Up to a few years ago, I was a frequent traveler to the orient and can assure you that the region of southern China adjoining Hong Kong/Taiwan is indeed capitalist infested. The real danger from China is its unprecedented military buildup (being financed by the sale of consumer goods to western economies). While the central government in Beijing has a tight reign on the military and defense, it is content to let the capitalist based businesses carry on in the big picture... JT > Up to a few years ago, I was a frequent traveler to the orient and can > assure you that the region of southern China adjoining Hong > Kong/Taiwan is indeed capitalist infested. China monkeys FAR more heavily in industry than MITI ever did. China may have what appears to be a free economy, but it does not. The region of China near Hong Kong is granted official privileges not readily available to other areas of China. > The real danger from China is its unprecedented military buildup > (being financed by the sale of consumer goods to western economies). They don't need low-profit consumer goods to make money. The Soviets, for example, built their military on sales of gold, oil and diamonds. Wouldn't surprise me to find out the Chinese have been selling heroin and other drugs to us. The profit on that stuff dwarfs consumer goods. That's how Al-Qaeda finances itself, as do all the urban North American gangs. > While the central government in Beijing has a tight reign on the > military and defense, it is content to let the capitalist based > businesses carry on in the big picture... China also gives companies a subsidy for each worker hired, which discourages automation. This, along with highly restrictive internal immigration policy, ensures that Chinese productivity will remain very, very low for the foreseeable future. Japan never did those things. Gains in wealth come with gains in productivity. The Chinese people will remain low-wage serfs to North American importers. Forever. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > It does. Japan eventually figured out how to make stuff really well. The > Commies never figured out how to make a good Yugo or Trabant. because there was nothing in it for the individual. design and build a beautiful, reliable, simple car, and your salary is the same as the person that designs and builds a P.O.S. in other words, why bother? >> It does. Japan eventually figured out how to make stuff really well. >> The Commies never figured out how to make a good Yugo or Trabant. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > in other words, why bother? Correct. And in addition to that, much of China's labor pool is illegal. They've migrated from the country to the cities without permission. If it's found out they've left the farm without permission, the farm is confiscated by the state. hundreds of thousands have given up the farms anyway, as they're money-losers. Similarly to illegal Mexicans in SoCal, it's therefore easy for unscrupulous employers to cheap out on wages. The threat of ratting the workers out to the authorities is enough to make the workers clam up and take it up the a.s. Every now and then the cops raid some of the various illegal cardboard-box shantytowns in Shanghai and other large cities, and order the inhabitants to go back home to the farm or get arrested. That and other factors are preventing the normal upward pressure on wages that eventually brings countries to near labor par. Japan was once a cheap- labor place too, but not any more! The Chinese do absolutely nothing themselves. *ALL* the products you see over here that say Made In China are designed, directed and imported by Americans and Canadians who went over there to take advantage of cheap Chinese labor. I personally deal with many customers and suppliers who have gone over to China to get things made that would be impossible to make and sell here because of the labor component. China is a right royal mess and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future. Which is to our benefit. Much of the stuff that's made over there would simply never be made at all if manufacturers had to pay our labor rates. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > China is a right royal mess and will continue to be so for the foreseeable > future. Which is to our benefit. Much of the stuff that's made over there > would simply never be made at all if manufacturers had to pay our labor > rates. sure. theres a lot of stuff i own that would have been/was prohibitively expensive not that long ago. an aluminum 18" lift, 25lb racing jack, $100 at harbor freight. something i wouldnt have even considered years ago. $40 harbor freight electric 1/2" impact wrench... basically a black and decker bulldog ripoff. >> hondas are amazing cars...but what do you think about chinese cars like >> zhonghua and chery....china will eventually create better engines and >> styling methods than japanese.. > > No they won't. Red China couldn't wipe its own a.s if they didn't have > somebody to copy. The Japanese are the same way. The last original idea they had was the attack on Pearl Harbor, and we all know how THAT turned out. >>> hondas are amazing cars...but what do you think about chinese cars like >>> zhonghua and chery....china will eventually create better engines and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >The Japanese are the same way. The last original idea they had was the >attack on Pearl Harbor, and we all know how THAT turned out. How about inexpensive cars that don't break. That was pretty original. (Also invented expensive cars that don't break.) >>>> hondas are amazing cars...but what do you think about chinese cars like >>>> zhonghua and chery....china will eventually create better engines and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > How about inexpensive cars that don't break. That was pretty > original. (Also invented expensive cars that don't break.) The point is they were not Japanese original ideas. I have great respect for the Japanese knack for copying something, cars, trucks, motorcycles, TV's... and making them better and easier to use. But that was not the issue. Japan is a nation of robots. They take someone else's idea and usually improve on it. THAT was my point. > is a nation of robots. They take someone else's idea and usually improve on > it. THAT was my point. even then it took a full TEN YEARS for japan to build a minivan on a FWD car platform, like chrysler did. they kept using pickup truck frames, like ford did with the aerostar, and GM with the astro. now daimler/chrysler is making bentley/rolls "look alikes" :) > > is a nation of robots. They take someone else's idea and usually improve on > > it. THAT was my point. > > even then it took a full TEN YEARS for japan to build a minivan on a FWD > car platform, like chrysler did. It actually took 15 years for them to build a *competitive* minivan. For 15 years, ChryCo owned the minivan market. Introduced in the 84 model year, it just kept getting better. It wasn't until 1999 that Honda brought out the Odyssey and finally competed, finally broke the Japanese out of their scared mindset (they were too scared to bring out something that REALLY competed with the ChyrCos; witness all those small, ugly, relatively speaking crummy vans). The Japanese sometimes can't--or rather, won't--even copy something that's wildly successful, because they're too busy looking at the other Japanese companies and waiting for someone else in their world to blink. > snip It wasn't until 1999 1998 Toyota Sienna. > witness all those > small, ugly, relatively speaking crummy vans). Actually, the Toyota Previa was pretty big but suffered with an underpowered engine and high price tag. It was also clear that the Previa wasn't going to pass any frontal crash test. > The Japanese sometimes can't--or rather, won't--even copy something > that's wildly successful, because they're too busy looking at the other > Japanese companies and waiting for someone else in their world to blink. Or perhaps they're so risk adverse that until they're assured success they tend not to engage. > It wasn't until 1999 > > 1998 Toyota Sienna. That gen Sienna doesn't even really compete with the big boys. > > 1998 Toyota Sienna. > > That gen Sienna doesn't even really compete with the big boys. About the same size as the std Caravan and not much smaller than the 1999 Ody. That first generation Sienna sold pretty well for being non-competitive. >> snip > It wasn't until 1999 [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Or perhaps they're so risk adverse that until they're assured success >they tend not to engage. That doesn't sound like Honda. I think that in Honda's case, they were following an orderly expansion plan. When Chrysler introduced the minivans there were quotas on Japanese vehicles. Trucks (which includes minivans) still have a 25% tariff. Honda was spending money building US factories and selling all the cars they could make. They had no engines or transmissions suitable for use in a minivan. And this kind of vehicle wasn't likely to big seller outside of NA. In all, it just wasn't the right vehicle for Honda to make at that time. Ten years later, Honda had more factory capacity in NA. The US had become its most important market. The Accord had grown large enough that it could form the basis for a minivan. Honda built the G1 Odyssey. Not a bad vehicle (I own one) but a little small for most buyers (just right for me). There were some things they could have done better, but it was a valuable learning experience. Five years later they were ready to commit to a larger truck line so the G2 Odyssey could share a drive train with MDX and Pilot. Now Honda had the top rated minivan. And it is still at the top although the Sienna is pretty much even. Why it took Toyota so long is another question. > >Or perhaps they're so risk adverse that until they're assured success > >they tend not to engage. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I think that in Honda's case, they were following an orderly expansion > plan. Risk adverse vs. orderly expansion plan. Maybe "orderly expansion" is just an effort to decrease risk. What do you think? >> >Or perhaps they're so risk adverse that until they're assured success >> >they tend not to engage. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Maybe "orderly expansion" is just an effort to decrease risk. >What do you think? No, it is an effort to maintain sanity. You have a plan and, as long as it is working, you stick to it. Running after every opportunity, even if it is a good one, disrupts the bigger growth plan. By any rational judgement, Honda has been growing just about as fast as possible. Keep in mind, twelve years before the Chrysler minivans arrived, Honda only made cars with air-cooled engines. > >Risk adverse vs. orderly expansion plan. > >Maybe "orderly expansion" is just an effort to decrease risk. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > as it is working, you stick to it. Running after every opportunity, > even if it is a good one, disrupts the bigger growth plan. Well, I offer the following - Ridgeline, Pilot, MDX, Element as Honda running after a market. I submit these distractions have significantly hurt Honda's car development. > By any rational judgement, Honda has been growing just about as fast > as possible. No, IMHO they'd have a complete set of killer cars if they hadn't squandered resources on their lame "trucks." Honda's figured it was less risky to build trucks to capture USA sales than it was to build a better Civic, Accord or Prelude. The Prelude is gone, the last Civic was so bad they had to do a major redesign (Corolla still outsells Civic) and the Accord is having a tough sell as a Japanese sporty sedan against Mazda 6 and Altima competition (let alone challenging the Camry as top seller). Honda was so risk adverse they abandoned their car plan, took up a truck plan and now has a lot of ground to make up. >>>Risk adverse vs. orderly expansion plan. >>>Maybe "orderly expansion" is just an effort to decrease risk. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Honda was so risk adverse they abandoned their car plan, took up a > truck plan and now has a lot of ground to make up. well said! could not agree more. > Well, I offer the following - > Ridgeline, Pilot, MDX, Element > as Honda running after a market. > > I submit these distractions have significantly hurt Honda's car > development. Hear hear. The beancounters took over at Honda, and Honda paid the price. Ugly cars, unprecedented transmission problems--not once, but twice IN A ROW with different transmissions, even. I think the beancounters have been forced aside lately, though. We'll see. >> Well, I offer the following - >> Ridgeline, Pilot, MDX, Element [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >I think the beancounters have been forced aside lately, though. We'll >see. No executive team at Honda ever lasts very long. The constant, voluntary turnover at the executive level is a Honda tradition. The latest CEO took the office in 2003 and will probably http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05252/568685.stm ** Quote ** We were concerned the Civic might keep growing old with the baby boomers and die off," says Honda Chief Engineer Toshiro Morita, who headed the latest Civic redesign. He says the car had lost its edge and had become like a "big rounded ball." About the same time, Honda CEO Mr. Fukui, who took over in 2003, was trying to rid the company of its conservatism. He says in an interview that Honda was afflicted by "big-company disease" in the way it develops technology, conducts product-planning and markets its vehicles. Stung by weak sales, top Honda executives began rethinking the Civic three years ago. When Mr. Fukui took over as CEO, he broadly encouraged this kind of endeavor and pushed Honda to embrace what he called "a smell of danger." Meanwhile, company managers pledged to stay out of the Civic redesign, recalls Mr. Morita, the chief engineer. "They told me on so many occasions that they no longer understood what moved young buyers and that they were willing to give me and my team free rein in designing the next generation Civic," he recalls. Honda tries to revive the Civic's virtues Friday, September 09, 2005 By Norihiko Shirouzu, The Wall Street Journal ** End Quote ** Management concedes marketing decisions to the Chief Engineer. That is so typically Honda that I am not too worried about the future. > We were concerned the Civic might keep growing old with the baby > boomers and die off," says Honda Chief Engineer Toshiro Morita, who > headed the latest Civic redesign. He says the car had lost its edge > and had become like a "big rounded ball." it was starting to resemble a low-rent sentra. especially from the back! at least the corolla looked semi-sporty, and could pass for an entry-level lexus. >>>Well, I offer the following - >>>Ridgeline, Pilot, MDX, Element [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > Management concedes marketing decisions to the Chief Engineer. That > is so typically Honda that I am not too worried about the future. thanks for that interesting and informative post! particularly fascinating to see management describe the recent trend in honda engineering as "conservative", when in reality it was extreme bean counting and chasing the tail-spin of detroit as if it were a "Good Thing". please please please honda, let the next generations of vehicles [particularly civics] get back to doing what they did best - the "wolf in sheeps clothing". and please please please honda, bring back a wishboned crx. hatchback. >>> Well, I offer the following - >>> Ridgeline, Pilot, MDX, Element [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >voluntary turnover at the executive level is a Honda tradition. The >latest CEO took the office in 2003 and will probably Oops, for got to finish the sentence. Fukui will probably announce his retirement in the next year or so. He is 62 this year and 63 is a typical retirement age for Honda CEOs. >http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05252/568685.stm > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >Management concedes marketing decisions to the Chief Engineer. That >is so typically Honda that I am not too worried about the future. >> >Risk adverse vs. orderly expansion plan. >> >Maybe "orderly expansion" is just an effort to decrease risk. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >I submit these distractions have significantly hurt Honda's car >development. I agree that Honda's car development dropped off the curve for a while. It seems to be improving now. Honda is a lot bigger company now than it used to be. It has the resources to carry out development on multiple vehicle lines. I personally wish that people (or at least people without a legitimate reason) would stop buying SUVs,. But there seems to be a persistent market and the MDX and Pilot are pretty good choices if you are looking for that kind of vehicle. You can't blame Honda for wanting to have a vehicle in this category. If the idea of an SUV is a little dim-witted, these quasi pickup-SUV trucks (eg. Ridgeline and Avalanche) are downright moronic. I don't think the market is that big either. For what it's worth, the Honda is definitely the best (least insane) choice among these. Element is actually in a nice little niche. It could be excellent if the execution were a little less cute and the size increased a notch or two. >> By any rational judgement, Honda has been growing just about as fast >> as possible. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Honda was so risk adverse they abandoned their car plan, took up a >truck plan and now has a lot of ground to make up. > If the idea of an SUV is a little dim-witted, these quasi pickup-SUV > trucks (eg. Ridgeline and Avalanche) are downright moronic. I don't > think the market is that big either. For what it's worth, the Honda > is definitely the best (least insane) choice among these. IMHO the Avalanche has an excuse; it can tow. It might make an excellent "fifth wheeler." But the Ridgeline...yuppie trucklet. > Element is actually in a nice little niche. It could be excellent if > the execution were a little less cute and the size increased a notch > or two. Gross vehicle weight reveals how poor a design Element is. Probably serves well as an urban light delivery vehicle. Chasing these "trucklet" niches is exactly the wrong course. All the engineering and marketing resources squandered on this stuff detracts from Honda cars. Heavy vehicles with indifferent handling that require engines with lots of low-end torque is the antithesis of what made Honda a great car company. I couldn't agree more with the comment re. getting rid of the strut suspension. Gotta go back to wishbones, drop the hood and cowl to provide the visibility we all loved. > Gross vehicle weight reveals how poor a design Element is. That, plus how little capacity it can hold. 800 pounds is the capacity limit. That's not even 4 guys. Shoot, after I put myself, my wife, my two kids, and our stuff in it, it's at the limit. I saw that and begged off. >> Gross vehicle weight reveals how poor a design Element is. > >That, plus how little capacity it can hold. 800 pounds is the capacity >limit. That's not even 4 guys. Shoot, after I put myself, my wife, my >two kids, and our stuff in it, it's at the limit. Well, yeah. You filled it up and it's at the limit. If you think of it as a small station wagon or a micro-minivan, its not bad. If you need a truck then it isn't going to work for you. Jeep Commander weighs over 5200 pounds and only carries 1100 even though it carries seven cattle-fed passengers. RAV4 capacity is 825 pounds and that has to include the weight of the third row seat which allows it to carry seven passengers, although I think two of them have to be pretty small to fit. Personally I wish that Honda and Toyota would build a large station wagon. Not Country Squire big but more like Volvo 240 big. Could be built off Accord or Camry platform with performance, luxury and economy versions. Must have generous cargo capacity and a much lower roof line than all of these stupid trucks. > >That, plus how little capacity it can hold. 800 pounds is the capacity > >limit. That's not even 4 guys. Shoot, after I put myself, my wife, my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > it as a small station wagon or a micro-minivan, its not bad. If you > need a truck then it isn't going to work for you. 4 guys in a 4 seat vehicle and it's overloaded? And it's something the size of the Element? That means it's BADLY designed. > > >That, plus how little capacity it can hold. 800 pounds is the capacity > > >limit. That's not even 4 guys. Shoot, after I put myself, my wife, my [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > That means it's BADLY designed. everyone thinks so negatively towards these chinese cars..why? china is posed to be the next superpower and is pumping top companies in every sector..its natural... so its natural to say in the next few years...it is inevitable for chinese auto makers like chery to become AT LEAST AS bIG AS KIA and other korean manufacturers and in maybe 20 years...overtake US and japanese makers. http://www.chinacarforums.com > Personally I wish that Honda and Toyota would build a large station > wagon. Not Country Squire big but more like Volvo 240 big. Could be > built off Accord or Camry platform with performance, luxury and > economy versions. Must have generous cargo capacity and a much lower > roof line than all of these stupid trucks. Except for the last part, they think they do: Highlander and Pilot. > IMHO the Avalanche has an excuse; it can tow. It might make an > excellent "fifth wheeler." But the Ridgeline...yuppie trucklet. if all you wanna do is haul a couple dirt bikes to the desert, itll do that. not many people tow anything, ever. >> Element is actually in a nice little niche. It could be excellent if >> the execution were a little less cute and the size increased a notch [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Chasing these "trucklet" niches is exactly the wrong course. All the seems to work for scion. >>>is a nation of robots. They take someone else's idea and usually improve on >>>it. THAT was my point. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > For 15 years, ChryCo owned the minivan market. Introduced in the 84 > model year, it just kept getting better. i think chrysler just copied the french. this thing: http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Espace/history.html was the leader in minivans in europe and it came out in 77/78. suspension was a damned sight better than the garbage on that chrysler thing too. and check out this: http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Espace/Gallery2/Med/espaceF1.html > It wasn't until 1999 that > Honda brought out the Odyssey and finally competed, finally broke the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that's wildly successful, because they're too busy looking at the other > Japanese companies and waiting for someone else in their world to blink. > hondas are amazing cars...but what do you think about chinese cars lik > zhonghua and chery....china will eventually create better engines an > styling methods than japanese. No they won't. Red China couldn't wipe its own a.s if they didn't hav somebody to copy The Red Chinese produced the most godawful sh.t before Westerners went ove there to tell them how to do things, and if we ever go away, they wil return to making godawful sh.t. Their culture doesn't support innovatio and quality I do think Chery will be the next Hyundai Pony.. - TeGGeR The Unofficial Honda/Acura FA www.tegger.com/hondafaq I have to agree with TeggeR since when have we ever seen anything better and so refind & reliable as the to "Honda or Toyota" line of vehicles from japan? until china ketchas"up with japans quality & refinement on building as good or better vehicle it will take another 100 years from know Honda & Toyota are my #1 choice for excellent dependable transportation and good resale value that alone right there tells you something about the market value on them market"s saying good car high resale value" crappy car low resale value simple as that -- johnin > hondas are amazing cars...but what do you think about chinese cars like > zhonghua and chery....china will eventually create better engines and > styling methods than japanese.. > > check http://www.chinacarforums.com How come I didn't see many of those even in China. They are mostly VWs and Hondas. |
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