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Car Forum / Honda Cars / June 20061994 Accord EX - Front Suspension work
I posted last week about a 1994 Accord EX with 235K+ miles that needed suspension/alignment/steering work. It is tugging and jerking the wheel up to around 40Mph, then a had vibration around 50-55, then a constant vibration to about 80Mph. Any transition in speed will cause a vibrationa as well. Oddly, if you go into a corner the vibration stops while turning at speed, but resumes when you get straight. The condition is getting worse, and I'm afraid it is getting pretty dangerous to drive. With the mileage, I'm guessing its the ball joints. The car is showing its in alignment, but its wearing the inside of both front tires. I figure a lot of bushings are worn out up front as well, and found this auction on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/94-97-Accord-Control-arm-Bushing-Ball-joint-Tie-r od_W0QQitemZ8072764882QQihZ019QQcategoryZ33583QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem For around 160$ shipped this looks like a steal, but wanted to see if anyone had any input on it. Wouldn't it be easier to just replace all these parts at one time while the front end is apart? Do you think it would be a tough job for a DIY'er. I have access to a lot of tools, impact wrenchs, etc... , but not a lift. <snip restatements> dude, if you don't know what you're doing, have the work done by someone that does. just buying parts without a proper assessment of what's actually wrong is, well, not a sensible use of your money. have the vehicle inspected by an experienced professional and go from there. > <snip restatements> > > dude, if you don't know what you're doing, have the work done by someone > that does. just buying parts without a proper assessment of what's > actually wrong is, well, not a sensible use of your money. have the > vehicle inspected by an experienced professional and go from there. The way I look at it, the car isn't worth the money to have a professional do the job. I myself might not have the know how, but I have family that does... hence the access to tools, etc. This car has had all maintenance except for the timing belts done by either me or our family, and it's still going strong at 235K+ miles. Lower ball joints alone are around 80$ at autozone. That may fix the problem, but to me its worth another $80 to replace everything at once so I don't have to tear the front end apart again in case something else is worn out. >><snip restatements> >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The way I look at it, the car isn't worth the money to have a > professional do the job. eh? what price do you put on the safety of your family? and how does a $500 one-time fix compare with a new car payment? > I myself might not have the know how, but I > have family that does... in that case, have them check the vehicle out and tell you what you need to do!!! > hence the access to tools, etc. This car has > had all maintenance except for the timing belts done by either me or > our family, and it's still going strong at 235K+ miles. that's not high mileage for a honda. > Lower ball joints alone are around 80$ at autozone. That may fix the > problem, but to me its worth another $80 to replace everything at once > so I don't have to tear the front end apart again in case something > else is worn out. again, have someone that knows what they're doing inspect the vehicle. speculation is pointless without proper information. once you know what's up, you can price and budget. sarcasm snipped Geeeeeeez, are you always this argumentative or do you have a problem parsing text? The guy stated that he's done the majority of maintenance to date and certainly, a front end kit is a lot easier to install than individual components. Sheeeeeeeeesh! JT > sarcasm snipped > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > JT hmmm. i point out the technical reasons not to have a drain plug on an automatic transmission's torque converter, but you take it personally and get so bent, you have to post stuff like this? why do you bother? >I posted last week about a 1994 Accord EX with 235K+ miles >that needed [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > its in alignment, but its wearing the inside of both front > tires. I don't think you should guess. It could be so many things. For example: -- Needs alignment -- tire pressure incorrect -- wheels in need of balancing -- worn ____ suspension part More importantly, the problem is becoming serious. Maybe it is a ball joint about to fail completely. A good report on a failed ball joint appears at http://tegger.com/hondafaq/lowerballjoint/index.html. You're right to be careful. I agree you should //strongly// consider not driving the car further. You're probably capable of doing at least a cursory check of the ball joints by yourself. For one thing, you want to check their boots. If torn, the possibility is higher that the ball joint is about to fail. Checking for excessive BJ play is described at http://autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?ForwardPage=/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/0d/1b /9e/0900823d800d1b9e.jsp On the other hand, if you need this car functioning right away, I recommend calling an alignment shop and asking whether they check the ball joints and for general wear during the alignment. If so, have an alignment done, but especially note what the shop says is worn. If you really do have the time, google for {"ball joints" "tire wear" pattern inner} and a lot of fine articles come up. Read more, so you know how broad this subject is. > I figure a lot of bushings are worn out up front as well, > and found [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > replace all > these parts at one time while the front end is apart? Contrary to the assertion of this ebay advertisement, these items are not //all// of the usual wear items. There are others. For example, the lower control arm bushings may be easily examined with the car on jackstands or ramps. Cracks in these bushings are common and will be obvious. Whether this ebay item is OEM ( = genuine Honda) is also not clear. it looks like an aftermarket parts dealer, like Autozone. From my reading and some experience, non-OEM rubber anything is not worth what you pay. I note that I am frugal and learned this the hard way. Now I pay more upfront, but the parts last longer. I sleep better. :-) > Do you think it would be a tough job for a DIY'er. I have > access to a > lot of tools, impact wrenchs, etc... , but not a lift. I have been replacing a lot of my suspension components recently on my 91 Civic. These include the stabilizer links (easy job; mine were very badly corroded on one side); lower control arm bushings (have done bushings on 3 of four arms now); front coil springs. Freeing frozen bolts on the control arms, and removing old bushings and installing new ones, all by one's self, is an adventure. That is, they're only for a person with a lot of time and interest. I have done all of it on jack stands and rhino ramps. A lift would be nice, but if you're not too large a person and can easily get under the car with it on ramps and jackstands, the suspension work is quite manageable. I am spending a lot of money on tools (or fabricating my own). Still, the cost is far below what I would pay a shop. Plus I will know that, for example, the trailing arm bushings (in the rear) were correctly installed (orientation of them is a bit tricky; shops have been known to mess it up). What kind of auto repair experience have you, anyway? If you've never done, say, a timing belt and brake pads, then I don't think you're ready to tackle suspension renovation. Also, has the car been driven in a snowy, wet climate for much of its life? That will indicate somewhat how difficult the bolts will be to free. Lastly, has the car (driven perhaps by a teenage son) hit anything since the problem started occurring? > >I posted last week about a 1994 Accord EX with 235K+ miles > >that needed [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > -- wheels in need of balancing > -- worn ____ suspension part Alignment is good this was verified by a family member with an alignment shop. Tire pressure is good verified by myself. Wheels could possibly need balancing... this has not been checked in the last 10-15K miles. With the amount of miles on the car, I'm assuming it's a worn out part. > More importantly, the problem is becoming serious. Maybe it > is a ball joint about to fail completely. A good report on a > failed ball joint appears at > http://tegger.com/hondafaq/lowerballjoint/index.html. Valuable peice of information thanks. I've also been using this page from tegger: EBSCOHost Research Databases http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/online-manuals.html > You're right to be careful. I agree you should //strongly// > consider not driving the car further. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > http://autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?ForwardPage=/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/0d/1b /9e/0900823d800d1b9e.jsp Thanks for the link. That's what I'm afraid of. The car is mostly driven in the city under 40Mph thankfully. > On the other hand, if you need this car functioning right > away, I recommend calling an alignment shop and asking [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > frugal and learned this the hard way. Now I pay more > upfront, but the parts last longer. I sleep better. :-) Thing is we're only trying to make the car last another year or two of regular use, longevity is not as big of an issue. I'm pretty frugal myself. I will look into higher quality items though, considering we won't be trading the car in. It more than likely will be a beater after it is replaced... albeit a nice beater. > > Do you think it would be a tough job for a DIY'er. I have > > access to a [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > can easily get under the car with it on ramps and > jackstands, the suspension work is quite manageable. Yep not too large of a person here. I would have help from 2 other people too, and would like to tackle the job in a weekend. > I am spending a lot of money on tools (or fabricating my > own). Still, the cost is far below what I would pay a shop. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > you've never done, say, a timing belt and brake pads, then I > don't think you're ready to tackle suspension renovation. I myself have changed pads, one of the radiator fans, radiator hoses, bled the brake system, regulary change the oil, etc.. on this car. On my previous car, a 96 Explorer I changed pads, shocks, oil, plugs, wires, etc... It's my soon to be wifes car and she has had it since she was 16. Her dad is who knows a lot more than me about this stuff and who will be helping me. He's assisted me with a lot of help on this car. He restored a 76 Celica with a full engine swap so I beleive he is pretty knowledgable, although I follow by the book a little better than him. > Also, has the car been driven in a snowy, wet climate for > much of its life? That will indicate somewhat how difficult > the bolts will be to free. > > Lastly, has the car (driven perhaps by a teenage son) hit > anything since the problem started occurring? The car has been in a hot and humid environment its whole life, the southeast. The shaking has gotten progressively worse that is for sure. I would say around 200K mark is around when it began. As of lately when it started getting into the 90s here is when it begin to get real bad. It has gotten even worse in the past month. Thanks for the advice... pretty much what I needed to hear. I'll do some visual inspections and see if the suspension is within spec. > Elle wrote: snip but all read >> You're probably capable of doing at least a cursory check >> of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Thanks for the link. That's what I'm afraid of. Maybe I'm misreading your tone, but from the work I've been doing on my 91 Civic's suspension, I don't think replacing the ball joints will be such a horrid job, especially with at least one person with some experience (your father-in-law) around. Definitely have backup transportation, though. Looking over those BJ boots isn't hard. I am only an amateur. I get my 91 Civic work done by researching a lot, including pumping all the pros and experienced enthusiasts here for tips, and working slowly. > Thing is we're only trying to make the car last another > year or two of > regular use, longevity is not as big of an issue. This does indeed make it a tough decision. Can't you move up your next car purchase a year or so? From the sounds of things, you're going to put into this car maybe around another $500. Although $500 for another year is not very expensive... > I would have help from 2 other > people too, and would like to tackle the job in a weekend. That sounds ambitious, unless the other two have a lot of auto suspension experience and all the specialized tools. > The car has been in a hot and humid environment its whole > life, the > southeast. At least road salt hasn't been eating at it. OTOH, dunno what ocean salt may due to those control arm bolts, for one. They seize easily for Midwestern and Northern cars. Buy a can of the penetrating oil PB Blaster and start soaking all the bolts you think you'll need to free. I am convinced that this stuff is saving me, as I work on my 91's suspension. I hope you'll update how this project with your to be father in law goes. Sounds like an interesting problem. Good luck. Well they say a picture is worth a thousand words. Here are a few: Right Front Tire http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/2083/rftire2lu.jpg Right Front Lower Ball Joint http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/5775/rflowerballjoint7vp.jpg Right Front Upper Ball Joint http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/5048/rfupperballjoint8wp.jpg Left Front Tire http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/7889/lftire3qm.jpg Left Front Lower Ball Joint http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/6743/lflowerballjoint8sl.jpg Left Front Upper Ball Joint http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/4539/lfupperballjoint0gu.jpg Obviously the right side is the worst, but it apears both sides are leaking at the seals. The wear is much more noticable on the right tire as well. The tire wear is spotty too on the inner part of the tire. >> Elle wrote: > snip but all read [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > I hope you'll update how this project with your to be father in law goes. > Sounds like an interesting problem. Good luck. > Well they say a picture is worth a thousand words. Here > are a few: > > Right Front Tire > > http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/2083/rftire2lu.jpg Looks like my right front tire (Civic, 177k miles, wear noticed around 175k miles late 2005, I think). My right stabilizer link was the one that was all corroded. Its rubbers practically crumbled in my hand; the bolt was seriously eaten away. Ya oughta post photographs of your stabilizer links. :-) My ball joint boots all look pretty good (knock on wood). > Right Front Lower Ball Joint > > http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/5775/rflowerballjoint7vp.jpg Is that black lava flowing out at the bottom? It's a little hard to tell if the boot is ripped up here. But I guess from what you say, it's toast. > Right Front Upper Ball Joint > > http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/5048/rfupperballjoint8wp.jpg Oh mah goodness! Am I seeing what I think I'm seeing here? Yikes! Frightening! I vote replace the right front upper BJ and its boot first. How could it get this bad? > Left Front Tire > > http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/7889/lftire3qm.jpg Doesn't look as bad as my 91 Civic's right front tire. :-) > Left Front Lower Ball Joint > > http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/6743/lflowerballjoint8sl.jpg Looks like the boot is letting in dirt and water due to being corroded at the bottom. > Left Front Upper Ball Joint > > http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/4539/lfupperballjoint0gu.jpg Is that an obvious crack/corrosion I see in the middle of this left front upper BJ boot? > Obviously the right side is the worst, but it apears both > sides are leaking at the seals. Note: There's nothing to really leak except maybe a tiny bit of grease. Those boots are there "just" to keep dirt and water out, AFAIK. > The wear is much more noticable on the right tire as well. > The tire wear is spotty too on the inner part of the tire. Sounds like you're on a mission which in my never humble opinion is very healthy. Enjoy. :-) > > Well they say a picture is worth a thousand words. Here > > are a few: [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > Sounds like you're on a mission which in my never humble > opinion is very healthy. Enjoy. :-) It is always good to remember that the right hand (curb) side usually suffers the worst for damage/wear as that's where most puddles and road defects exist. Over a period of time, this damage really stands out. JT > It is always good to remember that the right hand (curb) > side usually > suffers the worst for damage/wear as that's where most > puddles and road > defects exist. Over a period of time, this damage really > stands out. Good to know. That helps narrow the search for the cause of the front right tire wear. Yep, I agree it seems like the uppers are worse than the lowers. I could put my fingers inside the boots on both uppers. I'll try and get some shots of the links tomorrow. I think it's in need of a full rebuild. That right front tire is about gone, steel belts will probably be showing soon. We're going to the soon to be in-laws next weekend for father's day... 2 hours away. I'll let him check it over for himself and give the verdict on the repair. For the time being we're limiting usage of this vehicle for going only to work and back. Thanks for the help everyone. >> Well they say a picture is worth a thousand words. Here are a few: >> [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > Sounds like you're on a mission which in my never humble opinion is very > healthy. Enjoy. :-) > I posted last week about a 1994 Accord EX with 235K+ miles that needed > suspension/alignment/steering work. It is tugging and jerking the wheel [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I figure a lot of bushings are worn out up front as well, and found > this auction on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/94-97-Accord-Control-arm-Bushing-Ball-joint-Tie-r od_W0QQitemZ8072764882QQihZ019QQcategoryZ33583QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > For around 160$ shipped this looks like a steal, but wanted to see if > anyone had any input on it. Wouldn't it be easier to just replace all > these parts at one time while the front end is apart? > > Do you think it would be a tough job for a DIY'er. I have access to a > lot of tools, impact wrenchs, etc... , but not a lift. With that many miles if may be worth it to replace the whole front end if you plan to drive the car another year. You won't reget it. I replace the suspension on my 87 accord and it drove and handled like new until I sold it. If I can do the work, then anyone can. Order the parts online, take the control arms to a machine shop to push out the bushings. replace all the rubber and upper and lower ball joints. The lower ball joints are pressed into the knuckle. You can either get a ball joint press or take the knuckle to the shop as well. That's what I did. Make sure you check the bushings on the radius arm as well Reassemble and enjoy. I never regretted the work I did once. The only thing I wish I did differently is that I did all the work in one shot. I took the plunge and ordered the parts. We're hoping to get the work done this weekend. I printed 40 pages of information on the front suspension from the 1994 Accord workshop manual. Her dad has replaced the axles on that car before, so I believe the tear down will be similar. He also has a ball joint seperator tool already. We're going to do the loaner program from Autozone for the ball joint remover/installer. Up next is going to be new tires all around and an alignment. Hopefully it will drive a lot better after this work. I'll update this thread after the work. >> I posted last week about a 1994 Accord EX with 235K+ miles that needed >> suspension/alignment/steering work. It is tugging and jerking the wheel [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > thing > I wish I did differently is that I did all the work in one shot. We did the work this weekend and what a difference it made. We're lucky we made the 2 hour drive b/c when we got there we took off the right fron't tire and it had a huge knot in it with steel belts coming out. It wouldn't have made the trip home. We had a couple of cases of seized bolts, but nothing a torch couldn't take care of. We replaced the following: Upper ball joints - easy since it came as the whole control arm and two bolts held it in Lower ball joints - pretty difficult b/c the remover/installer had a hard time getting into the relatively small spot in the knuckle Inner tie rod - very difficult b/c of the cramped working conditions and the snap bolt/ locking washer that holds it in. It was hard to get to with the boot pulled back. Outer tie rod - easy to install, just screws in then has a bolt to lock in place Stabalizer bar/bashing - easy compared to the other work. Front rotors and pads - the hub was seized pretty good to the knuckle, but this was an easy job and made a huge difference in braking . The original rotors had 235K miles on them and were never turned. They were severely pitted though. Right front tire - her cousin did that at his shop. In all this was a tough job, but well worth the money and effort. It took us about 8 hours to do the work. We got everything back together and I took it for a ride. We had measured the old tie rods and everything was straight steering wise. We're still going to get an alignment and the tires balanced. The ride is dramatically changed. The outer tie rod ball joints had significant wear upon inspection. It made the steering pretty sloppy before, but now its like new. No vibration and no steering wheel wobble is great too. The brakes used to take a lot of effort and go almost all the way to the ground, but now it grabs well. I would say almost anyone with mechanical knowledge could do this job. We got the special tools we needed from autozone and got our deposit back. Other than that it was basic metric tools. An impact wrench really saved some time and effort, but it could be done without. Make sure you have a big socket for the spindle nut. hondahookup.com has the manual for the 94 accord, and although we didn't use it that much ... it helped when we got stuck on something. Thanks for the input everyone. > I took the plunge and ordered the parts. We're hoping to get the work done > this weekend. I printed 40 pages of information on the front suspension from [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > thing > > I wish I did differently is that I did all the work in one shot. Nice update. How did the old stabilizer links look? Just curious, since it seems like all the other old parts you replaced could easily have been behind the original problems. > We did the work this weekend and what a difference it > made. We're lucky [quoted text clipped - 156 lines] >> > I wish I did differently is that I did all the work in >> > one shot. The bushings were dry rotted and cracked on the old stabilizer links. After reading the post, I'd like to point out that the right upper control bolts are somewhat difficult to get to. You have the ABS relays and main fuse box in the way. There's about 5 bolts holding them in, and you can push them out of the way. We had to be careful because some of the wires looked fragile going to the main fuse box. So we're now at 236K miles and counting. FWIW, I again have more faith in her 94 Accord with that mileage, then my 2000 Millenia with 99K miles. > Nice update. > [quoted text clipped - 162 lines] > >> > I wish I did differently is that I did all the work in > >> > one shot. > The bushings were dry rotted and cracked on the old > stabilizer links. Excellent. Maybe I'll see my tire wear problem eliminated since I replaced all my stabilizer links w/bushings, too. Aside: Yesterday I did my '91 Civic's trailing arm bushings with my new, $139.95 tool in record time. Very easy with the tool. Freeing a few of the five bolts that must be free to do the trailing arm bushings this way is what took all the time about a week ago. I highly recommend the "Honda Acura Trailing Arm Bushing Xtractor" tool. If it works perfectly on my rusted old Civic, it will work on anyone's. The Ebay dealer who sold it to me shipped it within a day. It arrived early. > After reading the post, I'd like to point out that the > right upper [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > because some > of the wires looked fragile going to the main fuse box. :-) I was wondering about that comment of yours re it's 'easy... two bolts' for the upper arms. > So we're now at 236K miles and counting. FWIW, I again > have more faith > in her 94 Accord with that mileage, then my 2000 Millenia > with 99K > miles. :-) Further updates on this car are always welcome. I want to take my Civic to at least 250k miles. >>The bushings were dry rotted and cracked on the old >>stabilizer links. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Civic, it will work on anyone's. The Ebay dealer who sold it > to me shipped it within a day. It arrived early. now that looks like a handy tool! taking the whole arm off is a pita. if this really works in situ as advertised, it's worth every cent. >>After reading the post, I'd like to point out that the >>right upper [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Further updates on this car are always welcome. I want to > take my Civic to at least 250k miles. |
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