MTF in pre-1995 Honda?

Thread view:

Enable EMail Alerts

Start New Thread

Thread rating:

mhoza - 09 Jun 2006 17:55 GMT

I have beed trying to decide what fluid to use in the transmision of my
newly aquired 1994 Civic DX with 5 speed manual transmision. I was
considering Redline MTL but then decided it is safer to use the Honda
MTF.

However, then read this after Googling the subject.

"Actually, all Honda dealers use 10W30 (non-synthtic) in all Hondas
prior
to 1995, for 95 and later, we use a Honda specific MTL. I have no idea

what the Honda stuff is, but we are not supposed to use it in pre-95
cars.
I think it MAY damage the syncros of earlier cars, as they were not
designed to use the newer fluid."

Is this true or can I use Honda MTF in my 1994 Civic?

Also, I have read about Honda MTF Plus. Is this just an updated
version of MTF or a diffent product entirely?

Thanks in advance.

Mike

Reply to this Message

Grumpy AuContraire - 09 Jun 2006 18:46 GMT

> I have beed trying to decide what fluid to use in the transmision of my
> newly aquired 1994 Civic DX with 5 speed manual transmision. I was
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Mike

Where motor oil is specified for Honda manual transmissions, this is no
longer the case since most modern motor oils no longer contain friction
modifiers for the synchros.

For those vehicles, Honda tranny fluid is recommended but a better
choice might be RedLine synthetic fluid that comes in a variety of
viscosities depending on application and/or transmission wear 'n tear.

I currently have Honda fluid in my '83 Civic FE (where Honda recommends
10-30 or 10-40 motor oil) but this tranny is on the noisy side and I
have RedLine juice standing by.

Another note, modern motor oils generally no longer contain the
additives to provide metal to metal contact protection such as rocker
arms/camshafts as the switch to lifters are take over from convention
lifters. How this effects older Hondas is yet to be seen but diesel
motor oils still contain the ingredient.

JT

Reply to this Message

TeGGeR® - 09 Jun 2006 19:37 GMT

> Where motor oil is specified for Honda manual transmissions, this is no
> longer the case since most modern motor oils no longer contain friction
> modifiers for the synchros.

They never did. Synchro protection is achieved by boundary-layer additives,
such as zinc, sulfur or moly.

> For those vehicles, Honda tranny fluid is recommended but a better
> choice might be RedLine synthetic fluid that comes in a variety of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 10-30 or 10-40 motor oil) but this tranny is on the noisy side and I
> have RedLine juice standing by.

Mista Bone has seen bearing failures with the use of Red Line fluids. The
plastic cage breaks apart.

Oh yes they do! In fact, the new organo-moly additives are BETTER than the
old zinc! They're more expensive, but do the job as well or better.
Gasoline engine oils still contain zinc, but at a much reduced volume.

Get an oil analysis done and you'll see copious amounts of organo-moly in
motor oil.

> How this effects older Hondas is yet to be seen but diesel
> motor oils still contain the ingredient.

Diesel oils (Rotella, etc.) contain the old amounts of zinc because they
have no catalytic converter protection issues.

The best thing for your tranny is Honda's own MTF. Any noise you hear is
gear noise, or your bearings beginning to fail. It has little to do with
lube makeup.

Signature

TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Reply to this Message

Elle - 09 Jun 2006 21:11 GMT

> The best thing for your tranny is Honda's own MTF. Any
> noise you hear is
> gear noise, or your bearings beginning to fail. It has
> little to do with
> lube makeup.

In support of the above comment:
Tegger and I and I guess some others discussed this last
year. It's been discussed prior to this, too, of course. At
first, I said, "Why not use the 10W-30 or 10W-40 (according
to climate) specified in the Honda owner's manual?"

Ultimately FWIW I turned up:
1.
http://www.honda.com.au/buying+a+honda/parts/ , which says:
"Honda MTF Plus Manual Transmission Fluid has been
specifically formulated for use in all Honda manual
transmissions. MTF Plus is designed to provide smoother
shifting operation at all temperatures over the life of the
fluid."

And Tegger posted:
2. An example from the '02 RS-X manual (pg 13-4):
"Always use Honda Manual Transmission Fluid (MTF). Using
motor oil can cause stiffer shifting because it does not
contain the correct additives."

Many reports on the net attest to the better shifting with
the Honda MTF.

I'm switching to the Honda MTF at my next change, for better
shifting, and hopefully to maximize the life of the
transmission.

Reply to this Message

Grumpy AuContraire - 10 Jun 2006 00:21 GMT

> > Where motor oil is specified for Honda manual transmissions, this is no
> > longer the case since most modern motor oils no longer contain friction
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Get an oil analysis done and you'll see copious amounts of organo-moly in
> motor oil.

Then why is there an marked increase in camshaft/lifter failures in
older cars. There is lot of this being discussed these days...

> > How this effects older Hondas is yet to be seen but diesel
> > motor oils still contain the ingredient.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> gear noise, or your bearings beginning to fail. It has little to do with
> lube makeup.

Sorry, but I don't buy into the myth of automotive fluids provided by
the car manufacturer, (except that it's a big profit item), especially
where the original specs called for traditional fluids.

JT

(Never been a sheeple and not about to begin now...)

Reply to this Message

TeGGeR® - 10 Jun 2006 03:23 GMT

>> Get an oil analysis done and you'll see copious amounts of
>> organo-moly in motor oil.
>
> Then why is there an marked increase in camshaft/lifter failures in
> older cars. There is lot of this being discussed these days...

Citations, please? Some specifics? GF-4 has not been in use long enough for
the assertions you make.

>> > How this effects older Hondas is yet to be seen but diesel
>> > motor oils still contain the ingredient.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Sorry, but I don't buy into the myth of automotive fluids provided by
> the car manufacturer, (except that it's a big profit item),

Ah, so you are conspiratorily suspicious of the evil corporate
conspiratorial drive to squeeze evil dirty corporate profit out of your
non-conspiratorial blood, yes?

Those darn evil corporations. Everyone knows how evil corporations are.
Hey, remember the movie Rollerball, with James Caan? Those evil
corporations...

> especially
> where the original specs called for traditional fluids.

You *have* considered that "traditional fluids" may be subject to
governmental regulation, and may not now be the same as when the
manufacturer's instructions were written, have you not? Bear in mind
emissions regulations are more than doubly strict compared to 1991.

Being AuContraire can be dangerous you know...

The way I look at it, I spent $15,100 in 1991, which equates to about
$22,000 in 2006 dollars. I entrusted fifteen thousand one hundred dollars
of my after-tax cheap plastic Canadian dollars to the Honda Motor Company
Limited of Japan, in exchange for a piece of complex machinery that I had
only the vaguest notion about at the time. And for a while I thought just
like you, that ten dollars meant the difference between justice...and
ripoff...

...but after some very bad experiences with a few aftermarket solutions I
decided that perhaps Honda's engineers knew just a bit more than I did, and
perhaps just a bit more than the aftermarket was willing to pay for...

> JT
>
> (Never been a sheeple and not about to begin now...)

Have you ever considered being a Hoople? (Your answer will give away your
age, so be careful...)

Signature

TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Reply to this Message

TeGGeR® - 10 Jun 2006 14:56 GMT

>>> Get an oil analysis done and you'll see copious amounts of
>>> organo-moly in motor oil.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Citations, please? Some specifics? GF-4 has not been in use long
> enough for the assertions you make.

Something I just remembered right now: There are documented instances of
excessive cam/lifter wear with GF-4 oils, but those have to do with the
ultra-low viscosity 0W-20s. These must NOT be used in engines not
specifically designed for it. I ran across this in a Toyota Yahoo group I
help moderate. Toyota has even issued a TSB on the subject.

Signature

TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Reply to this Message

Grumpy AuContraire - 11 Jun 2006 02:01 GMT

> >>> Get an oil analysis done and you'll see copious amounts of
> >>> organo-moly in motor oil.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> specifically designed for it. I ran across this in a Toyota Yahoo group I
> help moderate. Toyota has even issued a TSB on the subject.

The issue I raised has to do with accelerated lifter/cam failures
involving flat lifters. This may have nothing to do with older Hondas
but it sure does regarding older domestic brands. The replacement for
zinc in today's motor oils doesn't work with these cars (of which I have
several).

I believe that there's a substantial article on this issue in the
current Hot Rod magazine and there have been several others as well.

I will be switching all of the Studebakers to Rotella and continue to
use Castrol in the FE. (I love that little turdbox...)

JT

Reply to this Message

TeGGeR® - 13 Jun 2006 01:52 GMT

> The replacement for
> zinc in today's motor oils doesn't work with these cars (of which I
> have several).
>
> I believe that there's a substantial article on this issue in the
> current Hot Rod magazine

Yeah? I'll have to check that out. HR has some pretty good tech articles.

Signature

TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Reply to this Message

SoCalMike - 11 Jun 2006 03:55 GMT

> Another note, modern motor oils generally no longer contain the
> additives to provide metal to metal contact protection such as rocker
> arms/camshafts as the switch to lifters are take over from convention
> lifters. How this effects older Hondas is yet to be seen but diesel
> motor oils still contain the ingredient.

shell rotella T synth... 5w40

Reply to this Message

Grumpy AuContraire - 11 Jun 2006 05:37 GMT

> > Another note, modern motor oils generally no longer contain the
> > additives to provide metal to metal contact protection such as rocker
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> shell rotella T synth... 5w40

Not for my Honda... It consumes a little too much oil (about a quart per
800 miles) due (I think) to a ventilation issue. I see no blow by when
the oil filler cap is off but the exhaust smokes noticeably. The
freakin' car has too many freakin' vacuum lines 'n hoses!

But, I have heard a lot of good things about Rotella from a number of sources..

JT

Reply to this Message