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Car Forum / Honda Cars / June 200693 Prelude SI using antifreeze. Help!
My son's 155,000 mile 93 SI has gradually been using more & more antifreeze. It recently went through a quart in 600 miles. I have thouroughly inspected for leaks and can find none. Water pump is fairly new and no leak at the weep hole. No sign of antifreeze in oil, no foam in valve cover. No sign of antifreeze in the transmission fluid. No smoke or steam from exhaust. No antifreeze smell inside the car like a heater core leak. The only thing I see is a very slight greenish tinge on all 4 spark plug ground electrodes. Is there a gasket some where or a known problem where antifreeze could be getting drawn in through the intake tract? The car is in great shape. I need to get this figured out before it gets worse. > My son's 155,000 mile 93 SI has gradually been using more & more > antifreeze. It recently went through a quart in 600 miles. I have [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > tract? The car is in great shape. I need to get this figured out > before it gets worse. Does the reservoir level climb when the car gets hot, then not come back down again when it cools off? If so, blown head gasket.  SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > My son's 155,000 mile 93 SI has gradually been using more & more > antifreeze. It recently went through a quart in 600 miles. I have [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > antifreeze could be getting drawn in through the intake tract? The car is > in great shape. I need to get this figured out before it gets worse. concur with tegger. if you're sure there's no other leaks, it's head gasket. in addition to tegger's advice, check for bubbling in the expansion reservoir after the motor's at full working temp. watch it for a while to be sure. >> My son's 155,000 mile 93 SI has gradually been using more & more >> antifreeze. It recently went through a quart in 600 miles. I have [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > expansion reservoir after the motor's at full working temp. watch it > for a while to be sure. Check REALLY carefully. My own head gasket failure was in the very early stages when I caught it. I had maybe one small bubble every ten seconds or so appear in the reservoir. It will get MUCH worse the longer the problem is left. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > My son's 155,000 mile 93 SI has gradually been using more & more > antifreeze. It recently went through a quart in 600 miles. I have [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > antifreeze could be getting drawn in through the intake tract? The car is > in great shape. I need to get this figured out before it gets worse. its gotta be leaking through the head gasket, and burning off. its just not so bad that you notice it in the exhaust yet > > My son's 155,000 mile 93 SI has gradually been using more & more > > antifreeze. It recently went through a quart in 600 miles. I have [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > its gotta be leaking through the head gasket, and burning off. its just > not so bad that you notice it in the exhaust yet My Civic FE project had a head gasket breach which led to overheating. I opted to try an el cheapo block seal treatment which is described here: http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id17.html As an update, still no sign of problems. Drove over one hundred miles today in mid 90's Texas heat without incident. JT > My Civic FE project had a head gasket breach which led to > overheating. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > hundred miles > today in mid 90's Texas heat without incident. JT, what "el cheapo block seal treatment" product did you use? I have a friend with a 99 Civic with intermittent overheating and intermittent loss of coolant. The level seems to go up at times like Tegger said. Can't see any bubbles in the reservoir. No suspect residue is on the spark plugs or oil filler cap. (Plugs in fact look beautiful.) Can't smell anti-freeze in the exhaust. But I also can't see how it could be anything else. Been several weeks of the overheating/loss of coolant problem. Pep Boys and dealer have both looked at it and found nothing but likely did not do a coolant pressure test; cylinder compression test; or test for hydrocarbons in the coolant. Her car overheated about three years ago when relatives were driving it; a rock was said to have hit the radiator; they didn't know it and so didn't pull over (yeah, I know... slobs) before the temperature gage hit red. I figure a breach began about then but hadn't manifested itself until this particularly hot year hit. I hesitate to send her to a block sealant product, since rumor has it they often gunk up cooling systems bad. Told her at this point best bet is to let a radiator shop troubleshoot it. But I'll study the packaging of the product you used and google on it and see if it seems worth a try. > > My Civic FE project had a head gasket breach which led to > > overheating. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > JT, what "el cheapo block seal treatment" product did you > use? CRC/KDS which is available at most autopart stores for under $10. Follow directions except I doubled the running time and drying time. And my car had bubbles in the coolant. I had problems after with lowering coolant levels (air in the closed system) but that was due to a crack in the elbow of the coolant recovery tank. JB Kwik Weld took care of that and the system works perfectly now maintaining the coolant level at exactly the "full" mark on the tank. > I have a friend with a 99 Civic with intermittent > overheating and intermittent loss of coolant. The level [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > do a coolant pressure test; cylinder compression test; or > test for hydrocarbons in the coolant. Overheating can also result from stuck thermostats or failing waterpump though these are not typical on Hondas. > Her car overheated about three years ago when relatives were > driving it; a rock was said to have hit the radiator; they > didn't know it and so didn't pull over (yeah, I know... > slobs) before the temperature gage hit red. I figure a > breach began about then but hadn't manifested itself until > this particularly hot year hit. Extreme overheating loosens all the crud in the system ultimately collecting in the radiator. Sounds like this may be what happened. > I hesitate to send her to a block sealant product, since > rumor has it they often gunk up cooling systems bad. Told > her at this point best bet is to let a radiator shop > troubleshoot it. But I'll study the packaging of the product > you used and google on it and see if it seems worth a try. If no bubbles in the coolant, I would not suspect the need for block seal. A clean system seems to be the need here... JT > Elle wrote: >> "Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpster@GrumpyvilleNOT.com> wrote [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > coolant level > at exactly the "full" mark on the tank. Okay. > Overheating can also result from stuck thermostats or > failing waterpump > though these are not typical on Hondas. Right, but with the loss of coolant, ISTM she's looking at a cylinder head cooling system breach. The water pump was changed just a few months ago, during a timing belt job. Air purges have also been done. She with the shops has been topping off the system as needed. Yet it won't stop overheating every so often. > If no bubbles in the coolant, I would not suspect the need > for block > seal. A clean system seems to be the need here... I will see when she last had a coolant change. Thanks for the input. My $0.02. Steam mixed with combustion gases can erode holes in cylinder heads or any metal. I wouldn't leave this too long. Even if you are putting in a quart every few hundred miles, the stuff that is leaking out is up to no good. Earle > > Elle wrote: > >> "Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpster@GrumpyvilleNOT.com> wrote [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > I will see when she last had a coolant change. Thanks for > the input. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >My $0.02. Steam mixed with combustion gases can erode holes in cylinder >heads or any metal. I wouldn't leave this too long. Even if you are >putting in a quart every few hundred miles, the stuff that is leaking out is >up to no good. Good advice. It will work on the valve seats first and then you have problems. Normally only impacts one cylinder, not all of them and that plug should be fouling out. Do a compression check, see what you got. I'm still suspecting it is getting out someplace else and you just haven't found it yet. Frank >Earle > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >> I will see when she last had a coolant change. Thanks for >> the input. > <earle-NOSPAM-horton@msn.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > just haven't > found it yet. Thanks, Earle and Frank. I urged her to address this and she has mulled it over and says she is strongly considering taking it to the dealer tomorrow. Her dealer says it can check the chemistry and pressurize the cooling system (presumably for a long period) blah blah to check for leaking in the engine head. They are charging only about $50. The dealer said they hesitate to do an engine compression check when the leak is very slow; not a good use of money. (You couldn't know how slow it is; just adding this for the archives.) > > <earle-NOSPAM-horton@msn.com> wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > of money. (You couldn't know how slow it is; just adding > this for the archives.) One thing that can be done, is to pressurize the cylinders with compressed air through the spark plug holes, and see which one makes bubbles come out in the radiator. If you do this, be careful because the engine can suddenly turn 180º in an attempt to relax the compression. It is good to pressurize each cylinder with the piston down. They are probably right, that this won't show up on a compression check, but it might show up as bubbles in the radiator. Earle SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >><earle-NOSPAM-horton@msn.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > (presumably for a long period) blah blah to check for > leaking in the engine head. chemistry check = good, and probably the most reliable. but you can smell the difference too. compare fresh coolant vs. stuff that's been in a bubbly motor. the latter smells acrid vs. of the sweet smell of the fresh stuff. the problem with compression tests is that the engine needs to be fully warm, and that can only really happen when the motor's running. it needs the heat because the thermal expansion can mean parts fit at one temperature, and not at another. unfortunately, hondas seem to leak when full hot and not when below that. > They are charging only about > $50. The dealer said they hesitate to do an engine > compression check when the leak is very slow; not a good use > of money. (You couldn't know how slow it is; just adding > this for the archives.) "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote about a friend's 99 Civic, displaying only a slow loss of coolant and overheating (plugs look good, as does oil, coolant, exhaust): > Her dealer says it can check the chemistry and pressurize > the cooling system (presumably for a long period) blah [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > not a good use of money. (You couldn't know how slow it > is; just adding this for the archives.) My friend had the dealer service department perform the tests (not sure exactly which ones, apart from what I described earlier as their saying they'd do). The dealer service dept. said her Civic failed the tests miserably. She had a new head gasket put in. Since she had the work done there, she's pretty sure the diagnostics were free. Cost: Around $950. Moral of the story IMO: Never let your Honda's temperature gage redline. It may take a few years, but it may very well come back to bite you. > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote about a > friend's 99 Civic, displaying only a slow loss of coolant [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > gage redline. It may take a few years, but it may very well > come back to bite you. Good advice for any internal combustion engine. Earle SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote about a > friend's 99 Civic, displaying only a slow loss of coolant [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > there, she's pretty sure the diagnostics were free. Cost: > Around $950. given the huge pita that job is, i'd charge at least that much! > Moral of the story IMO: Never let your Honda's temperature > gage redline. It may take a few years, but it may very well > come back to bite you. that ain't necessarily so. head gaskets fail for many reasons, and only one of them is being overheated. sure, overheating and possible warping will definitely start the gasket on the road to ruin, but there's also the mechanical loads caused by thermal cycling, corrosion and in higher power use, because most honda liners are "unsupported", they can "walk". i'm actually quite surprised by honda in this regard - i don't think i'd use the liner configuration they do. aftermarket "closed deck" inserts can be quite effective in this regard i hear. My son's 155,000 mile 93 SI has gradually been using more & mor antifreeze. It recently went through a quart in 600 miles. I hav thouroughly inspected for leaks and can find none. Water pump is fairl new and no leak at the weep hole. No sign of antifreeze in oil, no foam i valve cover. No sign of antifreeze in the transmission fluid. No smoke o steam from exhaust. No antifreeze smell inside the car like a heater cor leak The only thing I see is a very slight greenish tinge on all 4 spark plu ground electrodes. Is there a gasket some where or a known problem wher antifreeze could be getting drawn in through the intake tract? The car i in great shape. I need to get this figured out before it gets worse if your seeing a slight greenish tinge of antifreeze on your spark plug electrode you have the "early stages" of a head gasket leak! get looked at ASAP before it worsens and starts harming your engine. : -- johnin |
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