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Car Forum / Honda Cars / June 2006design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant
* via thermostat is [i] steel-piped next to & heat is transferred into rocker cover's breather hose www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/medium/0900823d800cf9d1.gif , this heated air is then sucked through PCV valve & into intake manifold.chamber [ii] rubber-hosed into bottom of throttle body www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d800cf4a6.gif , & heat flows into the air passing throttle. Both designs make air intake & cylinder head unduly hot www.circletrack.com/techarticles/1822/ : whenever intake manifold heats up ( esp in long trips ), torque drops & warm-starts are difficult , both because hot air cannot expand much when heated. Ideal temperature of air to receive injectors' spray of petrol is just 40°C = 104°F ( www.turborick.com/gsxr1127/gasoline.html para 10.2[7] ). Intake manifold where injectors spray petrol ( near cylinder head ) & chamber already get heat from manifold's contact with cylinder head, EAC & Fast Idle valves ( both heated by * ), certainly do not need more heat. If designer wanted manifold to heat up fast, then throttle body must have a thermostat to stop * inflow when throttle is heated to 40°C. These 2 designs make steep hill climbing slow & weak ; * & air intake will both be @ their hottest, & torque will be lowest ( ironically, when torque is needed most ). After I disabled these 2 designs, in 28°C air, [i] chamber, manifold & cylinder head are cooler, benefits are many e.g. 1 can use ( cheaper ) mineral oil & lower viscosity [ii] torque ( 5% > before ) does not drop after * heats up [iii] warm-starts are easier. > * via thermostat is [i] steel-piped next to & heat is transferred into > rocker cover's breather hose [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > ) mineral oil & lower viscosity [ii] torque ( 5% > before ) does not > drop after * heats up [iii] warm-starts are easier. There isn't supposed to be much air flowing through a PCV system. Maybe the thermostat for your throttle body, if it has one, is faulty. It's supposed to keep it warm, not hot. Maybe you fixed a symptom, not a problem? Your posting is hardly clear. <snip> you need to stop drinking the "cold air intake" coolaid there guy. it may be fine for you kidz in the nice warm county of l.a. to run about with disabled de-icing equipment, but anywhere else in the country, it becomes a bit of an issue when your car sputters to a halt because of ice buildup. as an aside, i had my air intake cover off the other day, and forgot to screw it on tightly. the screws worked their way out after a few hundred miles, and the air intake cover popped off. it was noticeable by two things: 1. increased noise. ok, ho hum. 2. big /decrease/ in power. the "ultimate" cold air intake, i.e. no intake at all produces /less/ power???!!! yep, you better believe it. now, it's possible that some aftermarket manufacturers of air intakes know what they're doing and understand airflow resonance dynamics and the effect it has on engine air induction, but somehow i doubt most of them do. but hey, most of this stuff is not for performance, it's just for show... ><snip> > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > 2. big /decrease/ in power. the "ultimate" cold air intake, i.e. no > intake at all produces /less/ power???!!! yep, you better believe it. Uh,the air intake is still from the hot under-hood air.All you did was shorten the intake runner length,which reduces torque. If you don't believe cold air enables more power,then explain why racers put scoops and ducts on their race cars.It wouldn't make sense,adding more drag to get cold air that doesn't produce more power. > now, it's possible that some aftermarket manufacturers of air intakes > know what they're doing and understand airflow resonance dynamics and > the effect it has on engine air induction, but somehow i doubt most of > them do. but hey, most of this stuff is not for performance, it's just > for show...  SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net >><snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > put scoops and ducts on their race cars.It wouldn't make sense,adding more > drag to get cold air that doesn't produce more power. uh, i understand how it works thanks. what i'm saying is that it's not so simple as most of the "cai" crowd believes. if the intake tubing is tuned correctly, i.e. resonances are set specifically, it enhances the air charge entering the engine. done right, it flattens/broadens power/torque curves. otherwise you're stuck with huge flat spots in the engine's performance, exactly what i was experiencing. "tuning" the air charge has /way/ more effect than the minor density differences made by a few degrees of ambient air temperature. >>now, it's possible that some aftermarket manufacturers of air intakes >>know what they're doing and understand airflow resonance dynamics and >>the effect it has on engine air induction, but somehow i doubt most of >>them do. but hey, most of this stuff is not for performance, it's just >>for show... >>><snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >>>of them do. but hey, most of this stuff is not for performance, it's >>>just for show... If Honda Tuning Magazine still has the article,they did flow bench and dyno tests on an RSX for several different brands of short rams and two cold air intakes.They did a reference test on the unaltered vehicle,then tested each intake system.Both CAIs got 20HP and modest torque increases.The short rams only got 5-7 HP gains. They included their graphs in the magazine article.They also discussed the effect of intake air temperature WRT making power. It was a very informative article.Maybe you can get a back issue. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net >>>><snip> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > article.They also discussed the effect of intake air temperature WRT making > power. i appreciate what you're saying jim, but did they drop a thermistor into the air stream to measure the difference in air temperature between the two? i'll be surprised if they did because i can't say i've ever seen one of those "dyno graph" articles that ever has. without that, they're simply measuring the dynamic air charging effect differences - what i was talking about before. you're right, temperature /can/ make a difference to power yield [an 80 degree difference in air temp gets you roughly 10% difference in air density] but again, have you ever seen temperature reading differences quoted? and what difference does it make for a *moving vehicle* with & without cai? airflow under the hood is, well, you get the picture... just questions to ask. > It was a very informative article.Maybe you can get a back issue. >>>>><snip> >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > into the air stream to measure the difference in air temperature > between the two? They used the OBDII intake air temp measurements read from the ECU's own sensors. > i'll be surprised if they did because i can't say > i've ever seen one of those "dyno graph" articles that ever has. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > cai? airflow under the hood is, well, you get the picture... just > questions to ask. even with airflow under the hood,the underhood temerature is much higher than outside.There's radiated engine heat that is retained. >> It was a very informative article.Maybe you can get a back issue. You really should get a copy of the article. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net >>>>>><snip> >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > They used the OBDII intake air temp measurements read from the ECU's own > sensors. great! what were they? >>i'll be surprised if they did because i can't say >>i've ever seen one of those "dyno graph" articles that ever has. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > even with airflow under the hood,the underhood temerature is much higher > than outside.There's radiated engine heat that is retained. you need to re-phrase that one dude. radiated heat, by definition, is not retained. and a sensor inside the manifold is not going to experience much radiated heat from anything other than the manifold itself. i think what you mean is that air drawn form under the hood i.e. downwind of the radiator, is warmer, which is true. but in these pics http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/civic-eng-broechem22000_003.jpg http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/civic_si_blue_motor.jpg http://www.clubcivic.com/gallery/files/2/3/3/4/5/DSC01335.JPG http://www.clubcivic.com/gallery/files/2/1/3/8/2/DamdamImage384.jpg etc. in all these cases, the cai's are /all/ downwind of the radiator, so i don't see what the "cold air intake" is achieving in the thermal department, unless it's on a static vehicle with the hood open. and i'd love to see numbers on air temp for a /moving/ vehicle, especially as oem intakes all draw air from up front of the radiator. if all these kiddiez were serious, they'd cut through the fender and/or hood and put a real cold air scoop to the outside world, but i've never seen that on a cai'd civic. >>>It was a very informative article.Maybe you can get a back issue. > > You really should get a copy of the article. scan it and send it to tegger. again, i see dyno differences mostly attributable to air charge resonances, not actual air temperature. >>>>It was a very informative article.Maybe you can get a back issue. >> >> You really should get a copy of the article. >> > scan it and send it to tegger. And I'd be delighted to post such results. > again, i see dyno differences mostly attributable to air charge > resonances, not actual air temperature. And what sort of changes are we talking about here? 5 BHP? Less? SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>>>>It was a very informative article.Maybe you can get a back issue. >>> >>> You really should get a copy of the article. >>> >> scan it and send it to tegger. I don't have the magazine anymore. I DO wish I'd kept it. > And I'd be delighted to post such results. > >> again, i see dyno differences mostly attributable to air charge >> resonances, not actual air temperature. > > And what sort of changes are we talking about here? 5 BHP? Less? for CAIs(not short rams),20 HP for a RSX. IIRC,that was measured at the wheel by Honda Tuning's dyno. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net >>>>>>><snip> >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > experience much radiated heat from anything other than the manifold > itself. Radiated heat (from the engine) gets absorbed by other things under the hood,including the underhood air.Thus,it's retained. > i think what you mean is that air drawn form under the hood i.e. > downwind of the radiator, is warmer, which is true. but in these pics > > http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/civic-eng-broechem22000_003.jpg > http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/civic_si_blue_motor.jpg > http://www.clubcivic.com/gallery/files/2/3/3/4/5/DSC01335.JPG these are all SHORT RAMs,-not- COLD air intakes(CAI) ;BIG difference. CAIs are longer,and run down through the wheel well to draw cooler air from outside the engine compartment.(thru the original intake's passage.) that is why HT's tests showed only 5-7 HP for short rams and 20 HP for the CAIs,and torque increases for the CAIs but not the short rams. Air temp was the big difference. > http://www.clubcivic.com/gallery/files/2/1/3/8/2/DamdamImage384.jpg > etc. > in all these cases, the cai's are /all/ downwind of the radiator, so i > don't see what the "cold air intake" is achieving in the thermal [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > these kiddiez were serious, they'd cut through the fender and/or hood > and put a real cold air scoop to the outside world, No need to;there's an opening available stock;the Honda/Acura intake is quite complex,and convoluted.the resonator tank and associated plumbing is unseen,hidden in the wheelwell in front of the wheel,you have to remove the wheelwell liner just to see it.(personal experience!) > but i've never > seen that on a cai'd civic. I have seen where some folks made their own ducting and air box to supply the short ram with cold air. >>>>It was a very informative article.Maybe you can get a back issue. >> >> You really should get a copy of the article. >> > scan it and send it to tegger. I don't have the magazine anymore. I haven't found it on HT's site anymore,either. > again, i see dyno differences mostly attributable to air charge > resonances, not actual air temperature. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net >>>>>>>><snip> >>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > Radiated heat (from the engine) gets absorbed by other things under the > hood,including the underhood air.Thus,it's retained. dude, the engine's at 78C. that's warm to the touch, but it's nothing from a radiant heat standpoint. what you're feeling is convective heat, primarily wafting around from the [very hot] exhaust and the radiator. >>i think what you mean is that air drawn form under the hood i.e. >>downwind of the radiator, is warmer, which is true. but in these pics [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > these are all SHORT RAMs,-not- COLD air intakes(CAI) they're all /sold/ as cai's: http://www.car-stuff.com/performance/quote.php?make=1&year=2000&model=1&brand=16 23&part_name=15&category= like every single item on that page. > ;BIG difference. > CAIs are longer,and run down through the wheel well to draw cooler air from > outside the engine compartment.(thru the original intake's passage.) > that is why HT's tests showed only 5-7 HP for short rams and 20 HP for the > CAIs,and torque increases for the CAIs but not the short rams. > Air temp was the big difference. respectfully, i disagree. the effect being observed is dynamic supercharging. otherwise the length of the tube would make no difference, it would be purely air temp. seriously jim, the effect of airflow dynamics are huge. you're right, a lower air temp helps, sometimes by a noticeable amount, but it's chicken feed compared to a mismatch between a given intake tube's resonance and rpm's. that's why you'll find variable-geometry intake manifold systems on a fair number of modern un-turboed cars, but air cooling only on turbos where air temps can increase significantly. and even then, intercoolers are more to help reduce detonation effects of inducing hot air than they are to increase air density. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_Length_Intake_Manifold >>http://www.clubcivic.com/gallery/files/2/1/3/8/2/DamdamImage384.jpg >>etc. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > unseen,hidden in the wheelwell in front of the wheel,you have to remove the > wheelwell liner just to see it.(personal experience!) i know about the resonator. my first civic had had it's resonator removed for some reason i never figured out. performance sucked until i replaced it. >>but i've never >>seen that on a cai'd civic. > > I have seen where some folks made their own ducting and air box to supply > the short ram with cold air. sure. and integras take air in from under the front bumper. but that's still better than the products sold as "cai" because they have nothing to do with cold air! >>>>>It was a very informative article.Maybe you can get a back issue. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I don't have the magazine anymore. > I haven't found it on HT's site anymore,either. well, i looked online and finding any article that mentions actual air temp readings, let alone one from a moving vehicle, takes /way/ more patience than i've got. >>again, i see dyno differences mostly attributable to air charge >>resonances, not actual air temperature. > If Honda Tuning Magazine still has the article,they did > flow bench and dyno [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > temperature WRT making > power. The following treats the rams but says the CAI modifications weren't yet available. Maybe you can improve on the search and turn up your article. http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/tech/0201ht_acura_rsx_type_s_aem_intake/ Of course as I'm sure you know, Jim Yanik, colder air means more dense air, which means for the same volume of air flow into an engine cylinder, more fuel may be admitted. So of course engine power can increase and substantially. (OTOH, as has been discussed here in the past, this does not necessarily translate to more overall fuel efficiency for the car. For one thing, if the air is cooler because of lower ambient temperature, then the car sees more wind resistance.) Certain industrial size diesel engines, for one, have an air cooler built into them to increase power. Whether these seemingly popular (according to the makers who have plastered the net with their claims?) aftermarket CAI devices do anything meaningful is still not clear without more information. I see the ads claiming up to 15% more power. I'm sure this subject is beaten to death on Usenet... I do not see how leaving the screws loose on the air intake cover affects air intake temperature in any meaningful way, though. Maybe Beam has backed off this assertion. > * via thermostat is [i] steel-piped next to & heat is transferred into > rocker cover's breather hose <SNIP> does not drop after * heats up [iii] warm-starts are easier. -------------------------------------- I looked at your other posts. Why do you own such a badly designed car? 'Curly' >> * via thermostat is [i] steel-piped next to & heat is transferred into >> rocker cover's breather hose [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I looked at your other posts. Why do you own such a badly designed car? His post makes no sense. I read it twice and still can make neither head nor tail out of it. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > > * via thermostat is [i] steel-piped next to & heat is transferred into > > rocker cover's breather hose [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I looked at your other posts. Why do you own such a badly designed car? What a laugh! I just read through some as well. I love this one: "Bonnet's rubber seals & felt, front wheels' hub caps too can be removed, to help cool engine." Sounds like his problem is the loose nut between the steering wheel and the driver's seat. Steve | > Why do you own such a badly designed car? So far all its design flaws ( 3 more & 2 inadequacies which I tell friends & relatives ) can be corrected / mitigated. I love its 4ws ( saves time, very scarce now : no new model has 4ws ), perfect rust proofing. No electric / hybrid / toyota's super 4ws on sale yet. | "Bonnet's rubber seals Removal of these let air enter & cool intake manifold & chamber , & let out hot air produced by air con's radiator. Torque rose 3%. | & felt lets heat enter bonnet & escape via convection / radiation | front wheels' hub caps too can be removed, to help cool engine. My front wheels used to be too hot to touch, caused by this * flow design flaw & cheapo exhaust manifold. Removal of hub cap will let drive shaft & engine cool faster, unnecessary for well cooled engines, but for desparate users with severe overheating, this can help a bit, esp on original steel wheels with 15½" Ø plastic caps. | loose nut between the steering wheel and the driver's seat. Salesmen / dealers all deny flaws, & denigrate to deter exposers, to protect their bread & butter, just like in 1 thread above ( 11-5-06 ) on ignition switch. > | front wheels' hub caps too can be removed, to help cool engine. > My front wheels used to be too hot to touch, caused by this * flow > design flaw & cheapo exhaust manifold. Removal of hub cap will > let drive shaft & engine cool faster, unnecessary for well cooled > engines, but for desparate users with severe overheating, this can > help a bit, esp on original steel wheels with 15½" Ø plastic caps. You've got to be f***in kidding me. Plonk. Steve >>| front wheels' hub caps too can be removed, to help cool engine. >>My front wheels used to be too hot to touch, caused by this * flow [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Steve his best one was about disconnecting the clock because the excessive load on the alternator robbed power... > his best one was about disconnecting the clock because the excessive load > on the alternator robbed power... That one was hard to top, at least without a tinfoil hat. Mike >>> | front wheels' hub caps too can be removed, to help cool engine. >>> My front wheels used to be too hot to touch, caused by this * flow [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > his best one was about disconnecting the clock because the excessive > load on the alternator robbed power... LOf*ingL! I'm going to save this one! :) Anyone give me odds he also drains the windshield washer to reduce weight? Doesn't mount the front plate (if his state issues 2)? >>>> | front wheels' hub caps too can be removed, to help cool engine. >>>> My front wheels used to be too hot to touch, caused by this * flow [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Anyone give me odds he also drains the windshield washer to reduce >weight? Doesn't mount the front plate (if his state issues 2)? I am Tee Hee Chia Pet and I now give you five more defects I find with my Honda. 1. Exhaust system is made of metal instead of carbon fibre. Not only is it heavier and more prone to rust but we need more carbon fibre in our diet. 2. Spring loaded lid on coin box is always pushing backward against car which slow it down and cause the battery to go dead. I turned mine around and now it pushes the car forward and it is a lot faster. Maserati coin box covers are all designed this way. 3. My battery dies all the time because I leave the lights on and the car just chimes instead saying "Hey you f.cking moron, you left the lights on again." This technology was standard in the 1980 LeBaron. 4. I busted the headlights with a hammer and now the battery doesn't run down but the annoying chime still sounds. Honda should make cars with no headlights just like Mercedes started doing a hundred years ago. 5. The cabin has a poor layout. Too much Ying, not enough Yang. I paid a Feng Shui master to adjust the Chi and now the gas milage is much better. Also car is more at peace with the road. > I am Tee Hee Chia Pet and I now give you five more defects > I find with [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > milage is > much better. Also car is more at peace with the road. Pretty good, T. :-) > I am Tee Hee Chia Pet and I now give you five more defects I find with > my Honda. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > paid a Feng Shui master to adjust the Chi and now the gas milage is > much better. Also car is more at peace with the road. Cha-cha-cha-CHIA!! LOL! #2 is a real sleeper. I bet only a select few race teams have discovered the secret. THANKS!! #3 Hell, I almost wish the *$%^ car would curse me, rather than jangle my nerves with the constant, maddening, DING-DING-DING!!! The facility therapist says I should avoid stressful noises, and stop playing with knives.... #5 Try adding several cats. The Yowl will neutralize any Ying/Yang imbalance. Also, people will think you have some exotic, high performance parts installed. -Greg (Looking around for occasional Honda test dummy Howard Lester. He's always good for a one liner or two or three.) >| front wheels' hub caps too can be removed, to help cool engine. >My front wheels used to be too hot to touch, caused by this * flow >design flaw & cheapo exhaust manifold. Removal of hub cap will >let drive shaft & engine cool faster, unnecessary for well cooled >engines, but for desparate users with severe overheating, this can >help a bit, esp on original steel wheels with 15½" Ø plastic caps. If your wheels are too hot to touch then you probably have a brake problem (or you are riding them/failing to downshift for long descents). Removing the wheel covers could help with brake cooling, but the effect on engine cooling would be negligible. Hondas have excellent engine cooling. The only time I have ever had a gauge go much above half was when the system had lost coolant. That has happened two or three times in 35 vehicle years of ownership of five Honda cars. I have run these cars in Chicago traffic in ambient temperatures from -28F to 106F and I have never found the cooling system to be inadequate in any way. So I would suggest that if yours is inadequate, it may need repair or it may be due to one or more of your modifications. If the former, then fix the problem. If the latter, then feel free to make whatever further modifications are necessary to correct these problems. Just don't whine that the car is defective. > * via thermostat is [i] steel-piped next to & heat is transferred into >rocker cover's breather hose [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >) mineral oil & lower viscosity [ii] torque ( 5% > before ) does not >drop after * heats up [iii] warm-starts are easier. I think one of your modifications is allowing carbon monoxide into the cabin. http://groups.google.com.tr/group/Taner___53_01?lnk=li&hl=tr >> * via thermostat is [i] steel-piped next to & heat is transferred into >>rocker cover's breather hose [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >>) mineral oil & lower viscosity [ii] torque ( 5% > before ) does not >>drop after * heats up [iii] warm-starts are easier. Does anyone know Chea's country of origin ("petrol", "felt", etc.)? And does he have a pet? ;) |
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