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Car Forum / Honda Cars / June 2006Setting Toe
Without serious modifications, my 91 Civic (among other Honda models) permits only one alignment angle to be adjusted: Toe. Has anyone here set the toe themselves? If so, what tools did you use or devise? Was your effort successful as indicated by tire wear and steering feel? I have googled and there are some reports on this, but they are a bit vague. Also, I see tools like the toe gage plates advertised at http://www.quickcar.net/chassis/ch_tp.html and Ebay Motors. Is it a big deal to find my own very flat plates, apply them to the tire sides, devise a way to take measurements, etc.? I am sure tempted to do so. On rear toe -- Having just replaced the trailing arm bushings in my 91 Civic, I know there are little "compensator arms" attaching to the front of the trailing arm. At one end, the compensator arm is bolted to the car. The bolt, when loosened, can move in a slot so that some adjustment is possible. Hash marks are etched prominently into the body of the car at this point to facilitate adjustment. The factory service manual describes this under "Rear Toe Inspection/Adjustment." See for example http://media.honda.co.uk/car/owner/media/manuals/CRXManual/62SH200/12-5.pdf The other end of the compensator arm is free-floating. That is, it rides on air. It seems a rather flimsy arrangement for adjusting toe with any precision. The design seems to explain the following three comments: "... usually only the front suspension [wheel alignment] is adjustable." Chilton's 1984-1995 Honda Civic/CRX/del Sol manual, page 8-12 "A unique feature of [the 1984-1995 models'] suspension system is the compensator arm. This component allows a certain amount of side-to-side movement of the trailing arm. This helps to maintain a better toe angle of the wheel throughout the suspension travel." Chiltons, page 8-16 "The [new at the time 1993 Integra] trailing arm's front end is located by a short transverse compensating arm which cancels unwanted toe changes." http://dwolsten.tripod.com/articles/sep93b.html ISTM the free end of that compensator arm will move in a radius around its other (adjusting bolted) end. So it moves in and out somewhat, changing toe according to driving conditions and wear on the car. As a result of all this commentary, I get the feeling that rear toe need not be sweated too much. Thoughts? > Without serious modifications, my 91 Civic (among other Honda models) > permits only one alignment angle to be adjusted: Toe. > > Has anyone here set the toe themselves? If so, what tools did you use or > devise? Was your effort successful as indicated by tire wear and steering > feel? I've done several by looking at the wear pattern. Initially I've tried to get close with a measuring tape, but all the stuff in the way makes that hopeless. If you find a fairly straight stretch of road and put masking tape (duct tape if the masking tape won't hold) from sidewall to sidewall on the front tires, you can drive a mile or so and check the wear. Excessive toe-in shows up as wear on the outer edges while toe-out appears as wear on the inner edges. I start with half turn adjustments on each tie rod; your intuition should do just fine for the finer adjustments. It goes without saying the differential tie rod adjustment affects how your steering wheel sits, so the iterative process often ends with adjusting the centering after you get the wear dialed in. Within an hour you should have a really fine result. Mike > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >> Without serious modifications, my 91 Civic (among other [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > from sidewall to sidewall on the front tires, you can > drive a mile or so and check the wear. I think I'll give this a try just to see what it turns up. I wish I'd done it before all my suspension renovation work so I could compare. Thanks Michael! > Excessive toe-in shows up as wear on the outer edges while > toe-out appears as wear on the inner edges. I start with [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > get the wear dialed in. Within an hour you should have a > really fine result. Understood. Thanks again! > Without serious modifications, my 91 Civic (among other > Honda models) permits only one alignment angle to be [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > did you use or devise? Was your effort successful as > indicated by tire wear and steering feel? [snip] If you've had the rear trailing arms replaced, then you need to have the rear toe adjusted. The best way to do this is to have a professional alignment done. Just pay the $50-60 or whatever and get a 4 wheel alignment done. I've done many alignments using computerized laser sensors which are mounted to the wheels. A small amount of adjustment at the rears typically makes a large difference. I believe that a professional 4 wheel alignment will be the best thing you can do to maximize the longevity of your tires (including of course regularly checking the air pressure and rotating them periodically so that they get even wear). Eric >>Without serious modifications, my 91 Civic (among other >>Honda models) permits only one alignment angle to be [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Eric what he said. because of the 4-wheel alignment necessary on this vehicle, and the difficulty of setting the thrust angle iteratively, pay to have it done elle. but because also of the, er, "patchy" quality of some alignment shops, make sure you take it to a place that guarantees their work. then you can keep taking it back until they get it right. and eric's not fooling - the rears are uber-sensitive. > Elle wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > need to have the > rear toe adjusted. I personally replaced the trailing arm bushings on Monday. But I gather your advice does not change. > The best way to do this is to have a professional > alignment done. Just pay the $50-60 or whatever and get a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > pressure and > rotating them periodically so that they get even wear). Knowing this helps a lot, Eric. I value your opinion. > > Elle wrote: > >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I personally replaced the trailing arm bushings on Monday. I'm just a little bit curious. Exactly which bushings are you referring to, the ones labeled as part #12 in this diagram http://tinyurl.com/fwt4y or the large one in the middle of the rear trailing arm through which bolt #26 goes to help mount the trailing arm to the car? Eric > Elle wrote: >> I personally replaced the trailing arm bushings on [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > which bolt #26 goes > to help mount the trailing arm to the car? I replaced both, but the one to which I refer above is the larger one (with bolts #26 going through it), Honda part #52385-SR3000 , only available in the last several years or so. Schley produced a special (and super fast and super effective) tool for removing it only in the last couple of years. I have a fuller discussion at the bottom of http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id15.html#tabushings , with some links to excellent sites with photos of the process. The bigger TA bushing is replaced with the TA in place, for the most part. That is, no brake lines need be disconnected and plugged nor bled. > The bigger TA bushing is replaced with the TA in place, for > the most part. That is, no brake lines need be disconnected > and plugged nor bled. The brake lines and hydraulics don't need to be disconnected when you remove the trailing arm. Everything including the parking brake either unbolts or unhooks.  SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >> The bigger TA bushing is replaced with the TA in place, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > brake either > unbolts or unhooks. I meant those who intend to take the trailing arm to a shop or put it into a vise to press out the big bushing (and then install a new one) would have to disconnect the brake lines. With the (relatively new) Schley tool, only five bolts need be removed. >> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >>> The bigger TA bushing is replaced with the TA in place, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > or put it into a vise to press out the big bushing (and then > install a new one) would have to disconnect the brake lines. It just occurred to me: You're partially right. Opening the hydraulics *would* be necessary on a drum-brake car if you were to remove the trailing arm from the car entirely. If you had rear *disc* brakes, you do *not* need to open the hydraulics. Finally I find ONE advantage to having rear disc brakes! LOL > With the (relatively new) Schley tool, only five bolts need > be removed. Sounds like a boon for drum-brake equipped cars. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > Finally I find ONE advantage to having rear disc brakes! LOL I'm a lurker in a.a.h., and I have noticed that you seem very knowledgable. So, your comment about rear disc breake intrigues me. I thought rear discs were desirable? If not, why not? Thanks, -- R Flowers >> Finally I find ONE advantage to having rear disc brakes! LOL > > I'm a lurker in a.a.h., and I have noticed that you seem very > knowledgable. I pretend well, huh? > So, your comment about rear disc breake intrigues me. I > thought rear discs were desirable? If not, why not? Rear dics brakes in a FWD car are desirable to the marketing department. Buyers tend to get a woody over them because they sound so hi-tech and sporty. They enable the sales department to have greater success liberating greenbacks from your wallet. Rear discs in a road-going FWD car are otherwise utterly useless and trouble-prone. They never work hard enough to get very hot, so they rust, seize and wear out with distressing haste and regularity unless the car is used in SoCal or Arizona. Any more questions? SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > Rear dics brakes in a FWD car are desirable to the marketing department. > Buyers tend to get a woody over them because they sound so hi-tech and > sporty. > > Any more questions? No, just a comment. I guess their marketing worked well, because I didn't even think about it. Back in the old days, many cars had drums all around. Then the front 2 discs came out, and I guess people thought "Well, if 2 are good, let's do all 4!" I remember sports cars in the 70s and 80s touting their 4 wheel discs. -- R Flowers >> Rear dics brakes in a FWD car are desirable to the marketing >> department. Buyers tend to get a woody over them because they sound [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > No, just a comment. I guess their marketing worked well, because I > didn't even think about it. Nor did I, back in the dark days of early 1991... My famous 1991 Integra famously has those infamous rear discs... > Back in the old days, many cars had drums > all around. Ever driven un-powered 4-wheel drums? GAWD they were awful. Terrible! Plan your stops in advance, preferably in writing. > Then the front 2 discs came out, And it was akin to a religious conversion: YES LAWD, AH SEE THE LIGHT!!! Discs were a sea-change compared to drums. > and I guess people > thought "Well, if 2 are good, let's do all 4!" I remember sports cars > in the 70s and 80s touting their 4 wheel discs. Yep. But there is a point of diminishing returns, and rear discs was it. For road-going, legal speed, grocery-getting FWD cars, of course. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > Ever driven un-powered 4-wheel drums? GAWD they were awful. Terrible! Plan > your stops in advance, preferably in writing. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Yep. But there is a point of diminishing returns, and rear discs was it. > For road-going, legal speed, grocery-getting FWD cars, of course. Just one question...If disks are so much better, why do the large trucks and tour buses still use drums on all axles? I know there are some exceptions but most use drums. I hadn't really considered this until your above comments... Dave D >>Ever driven un-powered 4-wheel drums? GAWD they were awful. Terrible! Plan >>your stops in advance, preferably in writing. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Dave D very few of the modern tour buses use drums these days, or at least, not on the front. the main reason drums are still used on large trucks, especially big rigs, is because of the air brake thing. unlike cars and lighter vehicles, they're "fail safe" which means their "natural" position is full on as opposed to off like a car. strong springs inside the drums press the shoes real hard against the drum, and the air system actuates against the springs to hold the shoes off the drum so the vehicle can roll. if the braking system fails, the brakes come on, and the 30+ ton cargo comes to a halt. hopefully. "fail safe" is much more complicated to implement on disk brakes, but real simple inside a drum. plus imo, a lot of domestic truck manufacturers are not exactly innovative pioneers in the engineering department - the quality of the chrome plating seems to get more attention from what i can see. >>>Ever driven un-powered 4-wheel drums? GAWD they were awful. Terrible! >>>Plan [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > very few of the modern tour buses use drums these days, or at least, not > on the front. Hate to disagree with you but every MCI coach I have driven in the past 10 years, including new ones, all had drums on all axles. I checked with our shop chief and he says it has to do with the larger swept area of the drum/shoe brakes as opposed to the disk/pad brakes. It is true that the disks will not heat up as quickly and are less susceptible to fade and water but the increased stopping power is the reason he gave me. > the main reason drums are still used on large trucks, especially big rigs, > is because of the air brake thing. unlike cars and lighter vehicles, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > department - the quality of the chrome plating seems to get more attention > from what i can see. Actually, there are two systems at work there. The service brakes are activated via an "S" cam and release when the pedal is no longer depressed. You are quite correct, however, that in the event of catastrophic air pressure loss, the failsafe system that you describe will lock up (full on) all the brakes. Rather an unsettling experience I might add. Dave D >>>>Ever driven un-powered 4-wheel drums? GAWD they were awful. Terrible! >>>>Plan [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Hate to disagree with you but every MCI coach I have driven in the past 10 > years, including new ones, all had drums on all axles. http://www.mcicoach.com/parts-service-support/partsSpecialsNewsDrum2Disc.htm euro coaches like setra & van hool have had them for more than a decade. > I checked with our > shop chief and he says it has to do with the larger swept area of the > drum/shoe brakes as opposed to the disk/pad brakes. It is true that the > disks will not heat up as quickly and are less susceptible to fade and water > but the increased stopping power is the reason he gave me. nope. see above. >>the main reason drums are still used on large trucks, especially big rigs, >>is because of the air brake thing. unlike cars and lighter vehicles, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Dave D <snip> >> Just one question...If disks are so much better, why do the large >> trucks and tour buses still use drums on all axles? I know there are [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > in the engineering department - the quality of the chrome plating seems > to get more attention from what i can see. Plus interstate buses and 18-wheelers are seldom bought on the strength of some advertising campaign (as opposed to passenger vehicles), IMHO anyway. > Plus interstate buses and 18-wheelers are seldom bought on the strength > of some advertising campaign (as opposed to passenger vehicles), IMHO > anyway. sure they are! durability, low maintenance costs, that kinda thing. makes the beancounters that buy the fleet truck purchases feel all warm inside. > Ever driven un-powered 4-wheel drums? GAWD they were awful. Terrible! Plan > your stops in advance, preferably in writing. I drove a '67 Chevy Biscayne (like a low end Impala) with unpowered 4-wheel drums down a long shallow descent in California when I was a new driver. Within a couple miles I had both feet braced on the brake pedal and was hoping for a place I could coast to a stop. The tranny was a 2-speed "Powerglide" (more glide than power) so low gear was just keeping my speed below 50 mph. I wanted my mommy! Mike >> Ever driven un-powered 4-wheel drums? GAWD they were awful. Terrible! >> Plan your stops in advance, preferably in writing. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > was a 2-speed "Powerglide" (more glide than power) so low gear was > just keeping my speed below 50 mph. I wanted my mommy! The worst car I ever personally drove was a 1974 Nova with manual drums all around. Now, a '74 Nova is not nearly a '38 Ford when it comes to brakes, but it was still quite a culture shock when you're used to a vacuum- assisted 1975 Japanese disc/drum setup. So remind me again, how come the Japs got such a foothold over here in the first place?... SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>>Finally I find ONE advantage to having rear disc brakes! LOL >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Any more questions? retrogrouch! in reality, disks offer better cooling, therefore less fade. they also offer more linearity between pedal pressure and braking effectiveness. for a vehicle that potters about town getting groceries, this is not an issue, but for one that gets driven hard, these benefits cease to be so theoretical. > retrogrouch! Who, me? Nah... > in reality, disks offer better cooling, therefore less fade. Absolutely. Which is why *real* performance cars used in *actual* performance applications use them. > they > also offer more linearity between pedal pressure and braking > effectiveness. True again (you're on a roll here, jim...) > for a vehicle that potters about town getting > groceries, this is not an issue, but for one that gets driven hard, > these benefits cease to be so theoretical. My point exactly. A grocery-getter (which describes 99% of road-going cars) does NOT need rear discs, and in fact is adversely affected by their presence. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >>> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Finally I find ONE advantage to having rear disc brakes! > LOL Yes, I was only talking about drums as well as thinking of the coupla sites that talk about how this new tool makes life easier. Guess they too were only thinking of drums. I trust you are correct about the discs. I hadn't thought about it. >> With the (relatively new) Schley tool, only five bolts >> need >> be removed. > > Sounds like a boon for drum-brake equipped cars. Yes, I'm sure you can tell I'm just tickled about it. Best $140 I've spent. Of course, the job's not done until all is newly aligned... > > Elle wrote: > >> I personally replaced the trailing arm bushings on Monday. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > with some links to excellent sites with photos of the > process. OK, thanks for clarifying the work that you did. > >> But I gather your advice does not change. No, a four wheel alignment is definitely in order. Eric >> > Elle wrote: >> >> I personally replaced the trailing arm bushings on Monday. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Eric That's what I hadn't considered - I haven't had to do four wheel alignment before. While I imagine it could be done with a similar procedure (measuring rear wear and torque steer besides the front part) it makes a lot more sense to take that to a pro. Mike > Without serious modifications, my 91 Civic (among other > Honda models) permits only one alignment angle to be [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > did you use or devise? Was your effort successful as > indicated by tire wear and steering feel? You can't do it yourself with any precision. The job is properly done this way: 1) Adjust REAR *total* toe FIRST. This gives you your "thrust center line", upon which the FRONT toe depends. 2) After rear toe is adjusted, front toe is adjusted using the steering outer tie-rod ends so that two things occur: a) *Total* front toe is within spec, and b) front-end toe on either side of the thrust center line is equal. Thrust center line (rear axle forwards): _ |-------- - Front wheels pointed towards the thrust center line. Their angles must intersect the thrust line at the same point: _ \ |--------- - / The shop will often not adjust BOTH compensator arms, but only one. It's not necessary to do both, so long as the thrust center line is such that the front end can be made to conform to it within its range of adjustment. The thrust line does NOT have to parallel the car body's front-to-back centerline. If you've guessed that the car may not travel down the road perfectly straight, but may "crab" or "dog walk" a little to one side, you're right. And it does not matter if this happens. Some cars (certain domestics come to mind) only have a single rear adjustment on ONE side. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > If you've guessed that the car may not travel down the road perfectly > straight, but may "crab" or "dog walk" a little to one side, you're > right. And it does not matter if this happens. To clarify: If you have to rotate the steering wheel and hold it there to make the car track straight, this is an issue quite separate from the "dog walking". "Dog walking" by itself does not cause steering pull. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>If you've guessed that the car may not travel down the road perfectly >>straight, but may "crab" or "dog walk" a little to one side, you're [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > make the car track straight, this is an issue quite separate from the "dog > walking". "Dog walking" by itself does not cause steering pull. "dog walking" is also why you may have to adjust the toe /both/ sides of the rear, not just one. the angle each side of the center line has to be identical with their bisector passing exactly through the center line of the vehicle. > You can't do it yourself with any precision. Okay. > The job is properly done this way: > 1) Adjust REAR *total* toe FIRST. This gives you your [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > b) front-end toe on either side of the thrust center line > is equal. Okay, thanks for the elaboration. > Thrust center line (rear axle forwards): > _ [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > domestics come > to mind) only have a single rear adjustment on ONE side. I googled before I posted and did indeed notice discussion of certain Fords, for one, having the adjustment on only one rear side. My dealer IIRC wants $89 for the job but I think I'll shop around a bit. The car has no pull or any odd steering. The tie rod ends (originals) appear quite secure. The inner tire wear on the front pass side may have been due to worn bushings and a darn near totally corroded stabilizer link on that side. All have been replaced. Very smooth ride now (and I think it's more than the placebo effect; I'm feeling that cornering on rails thing), but I know after all this work an alignment (the first ever) is a very good idea. |
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