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Car Forum / Honda Cars / July 2006No charge, no speedo
Hi, I'm new to the group, but my daughter has a Honda now so I'll be lurking. I didn't find anything on this exact problem in a search so: Vehicle is a 1998 Civic DX 5spd. Dead battery prompted a test of the alternator, which wasn't charging at all. Replaced alternator, and externally charged battery overnight. The car started fine the next morning, and it worked fine for about 1/2 a day, charging between 13.8v and 14.2v, then the speedo quit working, then that evening the headlights were dim. Next morning, battery was weak again, I charged the battery for a while, then started it, but now there is a no charge condition again, verified with a Fluke meter at the battery, but not at the alternator. A brief check of the fuse block under the dash revealed a blown 10A fuse, Alternator / Speedo. Replaced it, had a charge at the battery, then blew the fuse when moving the vehicle in the driveway. I suspect the vehicle speed sensor has a bad connection or is malfunctioning. Any other ideas before I dive back in tomorrow? Thanks in advance! Spdloader > Hi, I'm new to the group, but my daughter has a Honda now so I'll be > lurking. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Spdloader ------------------------------------------ Disconnect the battery for 30 seconds, then reconnect without 'spitzensparken'. You might just need to clean up the 'boot' for all the electronics. The don't like low voltages and errors creep in. Odyssey is worst because many sliding doors and interior lights (and kids). Owners spend hundreds on towing and 'diagnosis' when all they needed is a recharge and a disconnect. 'Curly' > ------------------------------------------ > Disconnect the battery for 30 seconds, then reconnect without [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > 'Curly' Thanks Curly, I gave it a try, but it didn't change anything. Spdloader > Hi, I'm new to the group, but my daughter has a Honda now so I'll be > lurking. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Spdloader How did you test the alternator? Have you done a load test on the battery? Check the connections on the alternator and the battery, make sure your wired right and getting good connections. Make sure the alternator belt is correctly tightened. These are the basics. If all this is OK, and you the 30 second battery disconect and it still acts up, I say you have a dead short somewhere in the system. You may have gotten a bad alternator with a faulty voltage regulator. Paul. > How did you test the alternator? Have you done a load test on the > battery? Check the connections on the alternator and the battery, make [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Paul. I was a professional mechanic for 15 years, but haven't the experience with Honda. Original alternator tested and diagnosed with an AVR. Battery was properly load tested. Alternator was tested with a Fluke meter the second time. I already covered the basics, but I appreciate the ideas. The alternator is charging at the alternator, but not at the battery. That rules out the alternator. The alt/speedo fuse keeps blowing to prevent it from charging the battery, which is why I suspect the VSS. Spdloader Hi Spdloader, I've been lerking around this news group for almost a decade now and just sold my 98 Civic Hatch to this a bodyshop guy who was going to give it to her daughter (hope u're not the same). I'd hate to think the car is being difficult, when it has been very good to me. Anyways, you're the first person I've encountered that's having an electrical short in the system for this model. If you're not making any grounds, I'd recommend disconnecting any of the aftermarket stuff (if any) and go from there. Pars > > How did you test the alternator? Have you done a load test on the > > battery? Check the connections on the alternator and the battery, make [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Spdloader "pars" <sdaro@hotmail.com> wrote in message > Hi Spdloader, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Pars Thanks, so far I've been unable to find anything amiss in the circuit, I cleaned the VSS connection, cleaned the connections at the alternator again, and cleaned the connections at the battery again. I have unwrapped the wiring loom looking for a short, but have found nothing, after checking about halfway up the line. I intend to finish up with that later today after the outside temps go down. Too freakin' hot out right now to be leaning on a metal car. Oh, and this one's not a hatchback, it was a hand-me-down from her step dad. Spdloader With the fuse replaced, at idle, the new alternator charges 13.9v, as soon as you rev the motor the tiniest bit, the alt/spd fuse blows. I'm guessing, I've got yet another bad alternator. Spdloader You can get an inexpensive magnetic ammeter from many auto parts or tools vendors. You just lay it over the wire, and it tells you how much current is passing through it. I'm guessing bad alternator too. Earle > With the fuse replaced, at idle, the new alternator charges 13.9v, as soon > as you rev the motor the tiniest bit, the alt/spd fuse blows. > > I'm guessing, I've got yet another bad alternator. > > Spdloader  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > You can get an inexpensive magnetic ammeter from many auto parts or tools > vendors. You just lay it over the wire, and it tells you how much current [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> >> Spdloader Thanks Earle, the probe accessories on my Fluke meter allow me a similar setup. Hard to believe three bad alternators with exactly the same problem. 1, the original, 2, the one from the salvage yard, and 3, the reman unit from the Zone. Later, Spdloader >>You can get an inexpensive magnetic ammeter from many auto parts or tools >>vendors. You just lay it over the wire, and it tells you how much current [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > 1, the original, 2, the one from the salvage yard, and 3, the reman unit > from the Zone. I find that hard to believe as well - I'd start looking for either another source of the current draw, or something else that may be killing the alternators (probably with excessive current draw). I missed the original thread, but have you tested and/or replaced the battery? An internal short may be sucking the current. Maybe check for a short in the alt-to-battery wire (rubbing against the block?) Hmm, 13.9V is really too high for idle... you should normally see closer to 12.5V at idle (<1000rpm), and 14-14.5V when revved up. > I find that hard to believe as well - I'd start looking for either > another source of the current draw, or something else that may be killing > the alternators (probably with excessive current draw). This is a no-frills car. No power windows locks or anything, just a stereo and rear window defroster, which did have a blown fuse. > I missed the original thread, but have you tested and/or replaced the > battery? An internal short may be sucking the current. Maybe check for a > short in the alt-to-battery wire (rubbing against the block?) The battery was properly tested with an AVR, and the charge harness has been dissected and nothing notable found. VSS removed, tested, cleaned, and re-intstalled. > Hmm, 13.9V is really too high for idle... you should normally see closer > to 12.5V at idle (<1000rpm), and 14-14.5V when revved up. That was immediately after putting in a new fuse, and the alternator started charging. It quickly about (1-1/2min) went down to the 12.5 range and maintained it, but upon revving the engine, the charge went off the scale and the fuse blew again, all in about 2 seconds. Charge started down the scale then. Spdloader >> I find that hard to believe as well - I'd start looking for either >> another source of the current draw, or something else that may be [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > off the scale and the fuse blew again, all in about 2 seconds. Charge > started down the scale then. It really looks like the current alternator is not regulator it's full speed voltage output and the battery is kind enough to mop up the extra amps until the Fuse get bored and decides it's time to leave. -- Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro.org.uk/ Wessex Astro Society's Website Dorset UK Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter. >>> I find that hard to believe as well - I'd start looking for either >>> another source of the current draw, or something else that may be [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> off the scale and the fuse blew again, all in about 2 seconds. Charge >> started down the scale then. It really looks like the current alternator is not regulatING it's full speed voltage output and the battery is kind enough to mop up the extra amps until the Fuse gets bored and decides it's time to leave. Sorry for the typo. -- Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro.org.uk/ Wessex Astro Society's Website Dorset UK Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter. > > I find that hard to believe as well - I'd start looking for either > > another source of the current draw, or something else that may be killing [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Spdloader This looks like problems with the voltage regulator. I am not sure where it is located in a "1998 Civic DX 5spd", and I hope I never find out, because mine is a 1999 HX, probably in the same place! Earle SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > This looks like problems with the voltage regulator. I am not sure where > it > is located in a "1998 Civic DX 5spd", and I hope I never find out, because > mine is a 1999 HX, probably in the same place! > > Earle You know what sucks the worst, Earle? She gave up the '90 XJ Limited I gave her for this thing. It never gave a moments trouble, just liked the gas. Spdloader > "Spdloader" <askforit@nospam.triad.rr.com> wrote in message >charging. It quickly about (1-1/2min) went down to the 12.5 range and >>maintained it, but upon revving the engine, the charge went off the scale [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > is located in a "1998 Civic DX 5spd", and I hope I never find out, because > mine is a 1999 HX, probably in the same place! If I'm not mistaken, the regulator is internal to the alternator, which makes it that much stranger that this should happen with three different alts. >>Hmm, 13.9V is really too high for idle... you should normally see closer >>to 12.5V at idle (<1000rpm), and 14-14.5V when revved up. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and the fuse blew again, all in about 2 seconds. Charge started down the > scale then. Strange... if there was a short to ground somewhere, the voltage should plummet just before the fuse blows. Does it still do it with the battery disconnected? It sounds like a bad voltage regulator, but that should be internal on those alternators and so you'd be getting a different one with every replacement alt. > Strange... if there was a short to ground somewhere, the voltage should > plummet just before the fuse blows. Does it still do it with the battery [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > those alternators and so you'd be getting a different one with every > replacement alt. Makes no difference if the battery is connected. Same outcome. Tomorrow, it's a new alternator. Update to follow. Spdloader >> Strange... if there was a short to ground somewhere, the voltage should >> plummet just before the fuse blows. Does it still do it with the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Tomorrow, it's a new alternator. Well, if it's not the battery mopping up all the amps til the fuse pops, then it must be a short to ground. Have you tried it with the high current stuff (headlights etc) on and then measure the volts as the revs are raised? > Update to follow. Waiting with baited breath. -- Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro.org.uk/ Wessex Astro Society's Website Dorset UK Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter. > Well, if it's not the battery mopping up all the amps til the fuse pops, > then it must be a short to ground. The battery tests fine with an AVR, that's all I have to test with, but it should be sufficient. > Have you tried it with the high current stuff (headlights etc) on and > then measure the volts as the revs are raised? Yes, revving the engine to 2000rpm with headlights, a/c, fan, and rear defrost, voltage went off the scale, and the fuse popped. It was a little slower, about 5 seconds. >> Update to follow. > > Waiting with baited breath. >>Well, if it's not the battery mopping up all the amps til the fuse pops, >>then it must be a short to ground. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > defrost, voltage went off the scale, and the fuse popped. > It was a little slower, about 5 seconds. Yeah, anything that's a short to ground should cause the voltage reading to DROP, not jump up off the scale... that's pretty much guaranteed a bad regulator, or something connected to the regulator (does it tie into the car's computer anywhere??) What year car is this again? > Yeah, anything that's a short to ground should cause the voltage reading > to DROP, not jump up off the scale... that's pretty much guaranteed a bad > regulator, or something connected to the regulator (does it tie into the > car's computer anywhere??) There is a green connector with multiple wires. It does appear to tie in to the vehicle computer. > What year car is this again? It's a 1998. Spdloader > >>Well, if it's not the battery mopping up all the amps til the fuse pops, > >>then it must be a short to ground. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > bad regulator, or something connected to the regulator (does it tie into > the car's computer anywhere??) On your first point, it may not be possible to see the difference between the 'short' (if there is one) coming on and the fuse popping. Both will see the voltage fall away. On the latter point, I believe there is a compensatory signal applied from the ECU when a heavy load item is switched on. It should be possible to hear the engine load change when the headlights are switched off again but revs shouldn't change. It sure is a puzzle. -- Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro.org.uk/ Wessex Astro Society's Website Dorset UK Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter. "> On the latter point, I believe there is a compensatory signal applied from > the ECU when a heavy load item is switched on. It should be possible to > hear the engine load change when the headlights are switched off again > but revs shouldn't change. > > It sure is a puzzle. Yes, at idle, there was a noticeable change in engine load while switching on the electrics, and alternator output changed to meet the requirement, but once the throttle was "tweaked", the fuse popped, and the engine note changed back. The new alternator won't be in until tomorrow (Thurs) afternoon, so, another day to over analyze this, I"m afraid. Spdloader > "> On the latter point, I believe there is a compensatory signal applied > from [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > The new alternator won't be in until tomorrow (Thurs) afternoon, so, another > day to over analyze this, I"m afraid. I don't suppose you've tried a substitute battery on the system? -- Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro.org.uk/ Wessex Astro Society's Website Dorset UK Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter. >> Yes, at idle, there was a noticeable change in engine load while > switching [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I don't suppose you've tried a substitute battery on the system? No. I don't have one at my disposal, but disconnecting the battery completely had no effect on the problem, so I ruled it out. Spdloader > "> On the latter point, I believe there is a compensatory signal applied > from [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > The new alternator won't be in until tomorrow (Thurs) afternoon, so, another > day to over analyze this, I"m afraid. We may be on to something with the ECU link... wonder how hard it would be to grab another one from a wrecker and plug it in, see if that fixes things? Hmmm... or... I wonder if a diagnostic analyzer hooked to the ECU would show anything anomalous? >>>>Have you tried it with the high current stuff (headlights etc) on and >>>>then measure the volts as the revs are raised? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the 'short' (if there is one) coming on and the fuse popping. Both will > see the voltage fall away. No, but either way, you still wouldn't see the voltage spike UP > On the latter point, I believe there is a compensatory signal applied from > the ECU when a heavy load item is switched on. It should be possible to > hear the engine load change when the headlights are switched off again > but revs shouldn't change. I found an online manual for '95-'97 Civics... the wiring diagram there shows a connection from the ECU to one terminal of the regulator... without an actual schematic of what's happening inside the regulator module, it's impossible to say for sure... the ECU lead ties with one side of the regulator to the "low" side of the field coil, so it appears it's entirely possible that a bad signal from the ECU, or even a short in the ECU connection (either to power or ground, the latter is more likely) could cause the regulator output to spike. That would at least explain why the problem persists across three different alternators. > It sure is a puzzle. I love a challenge :) > With the fuse replaced, at idle, the new alternator charges 13.9v, as soon > as you rev the motor the tiniest bit, the alt/spd fuse blows. > > I'm guessing, I've got yet another bad alternator. > > Spdloader It sounds like you have the output and regulator wires mixed up. The alternator's regulator should draw more power at idle and never blow a fuse. >> With the fuse replaced, at idle, the new alternator charges 13.9v, as >> soon [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > alternator's regulator should draw more power at idle and never blow a > fuse. Um, nope, sure don't. Didn't read the whole thread, did ya? Spdloader > >> With the fuse replaced, at idle, the new alternator charges 13.9v, as > >> soon [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Spdloader ---------------------------------------- You probably covered this already, but look at the sixth article in this page (regarding the Honda ELD): http://www.asaaz.org/canyonauto/techtips.htm 'Curly' > Hi, I'm new to the group, but my daughter has a Honda now so I'll be > lurking. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Spdloader Alternator taken off and tested, charged 20volts, 20amps on the bench, and voltage regulator bad. New alternator installed, worked perfectly for 5 mins, then fuse blew, and I'm right back to square one. Gonna go have a Mt. Dew now. Spdloader >>Hi, I'm new to the group, but my daughter has a Honda now so I'll be >>lurking. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Gonna go have a Mt. Dew now. So something else is killing the voltage regulator(s - 4 of them now!), which then of course isn't regulating the output properly. Going by the schematic I found for the '97 Civic (http://media.honda.co.uk/car/owner/media/manuals/CivicManual/pdf/23-a96.pdf), that would most likely lead back to the ECU connection. The regulator actually controls the voltage across the field coil of the alternator, which of course affects the voltage produced by the rotor coils. From the diagram, it looks like the ECU also "injects" a voltage at the low side of the coil, which would allow it to alter the delta voltage in addition to the regulator (note: I have a good background in general electronics, but am not trained specifically in modern automotive charging systems, so some of this is just educated guessing). A short in that ECU lead SHOULD'T affect the regulator directly, as there's a diode there that would block any reverse current flow if the ECU lead were to short to ground, but maybe the '98's alternator is different - without that diode, a short could potentially fry the regulator, allowing full voltage to flow through the field coil and cause the rotor coil output to spike. Or it might not even be affecting the regulator - just shorting that lead would have the same effect (then again, if it's testing overvoltage on the bench, the regulator probably is fried - damn). So there you have it. Short of looking at a proper schematic of the '98, my best guess is still a problem in the ECU. The cooked regulators are a symptom, not the root of the problem. I'd love to see a schematic of how the regulator itself is set up inside, it would help the diagnosis. >>>Hi, I'm new to the group, but my daughter has a Honda now so I'll be >>>lurking. [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > I'd love to see a schematic of how the regulator itself is set up inside, > it would help the diagnosis. I wonder if there is something else in the circuit, i.e. sensors such as O2, or something that could be shorted somehow. I think I'll let it rest over the weekend and do some fishing. I think I can do that right. Spdloader >>>>Hi, I'm new to the group, but my daughter has a Honda now so I'll be >>>>lurking. [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > I wonder if there is something else in the circuit, i.e. sensors such as O2, > or something that could be shorted somehow. I don't think there'd be anything else specifically on that wire... the sensors would have their own connections to the ECU. > I think I'll let it rest over the weekend and do some fishing. I think I can > do that right. Heheh... like I said, try checking with a wrecker, see if you can get another ECU for cheap, and swap it in. Here's an interesting snippet I found... dunno how much it relates to your problem, but it's a bit more information on Honda's charging system... "..... Returning to Hondas - a no-charging system may not be the alternator. Honda has been using an ELD (electrical load device) relay for the last 10 years or so. Honda uses PCM strategy to control the voltage regulator. We have learned to let the engine run a few minutes before checking alternator output (the PCM lets the initial start up to stabilize before turning the alternator on, reducing the load on the engine). Honda uses the ELD relay to control alternator output -- no load, no work at idle. ..... The typical customer complaint will be they are noticing the dash, or headlights, dim with turn signal use or brake application. Check the ELD before condemning an alternator. ..... And, as a reminder, check the dash warning light -- it needs to be working before the alternator will work. Heck, as long as I am there -- Honda needs a functioning dash light, but it is grounded by the alternator -- so... for a no-charge, check the bulb. If it doesn't light, go out to the alternator and ground the appropriate wire -- if the bulb lights now, proceed with the rest of the charging system check. ..... In a nutshell, there it is -- a Honda may not charge because of a: bad alternator, bad dash bulb, bad ELD, or a bad PCM (in that order)." http://www.asaaz.org/canyonauto/techtips.htm Okay, forget what I wrote before about how the alternator works... I had it kinda back-assward. I found a great site detailing how alternators work, and how their regulators work, and how it all works together. I'll hafta go back over all this and re-think it a bit, but in the end, it still sounds like it's probably something related to that ECU lead - either a short, or a problem with the ECU itself - that's cooking the regulators. Anyway, for anyone else who's interested: http://www.1stconnect.com/anozira/SiteTops/energy/Alternator/alternator.htm >>>>>Hi, I'm new to the group, but my daughter has a Honda now so I'll be >>>>>lurking. [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > Heheh... like I said, try checking with a wrecker, see if you can get > another ECU for cheap, and swap it in. Thanks for all your work and help Matt, I'll get to a salvage yard right after some fishing. Spdloader > Thanks for all your work and help Matt, I'll get to a salvage yard right > after some fishing. > Spdloader Oh yeah, fishing definitely comes first! >> Thanks for all your work and help Matt, I'll get to a salvage yard right >> after some fishing. >> Spdloader > > Oh yeah, fishing definitely comes first! It does after the week I've had! Later, Spdloader |
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