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Car Forum / Honda Cars / August 2006K & N air filters--Are They Worth it?
Does anyone know if it's worth it to buy K & N air filters for your Honda? Does it really improve gas mileage, and is it worth it to pay $70-85 CAD upfront and then another $15.00 for the oil kit? I mean really, where's the savings? If they were that good wouldn't manufacturers install them from the factory? What about warranty? Do they void the warranty? Thanks, Nino > Does anyone know if it's worth it to buy K & N air filters for your Honda? > Does it really improve gas mileage, and is it worth it to pay $70-85 CAD [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Nino NO NO NO !!! These filters clog up very very quickly because they have almost no capacity to hold dirt. There is no meaningful performance increase, either. The same kind of nutz that swear by them are the ones buying 100 dollar video cables, because they're "better" even though nobody can see or hear the difference. If you want to waste your money, use synthetic oil, at least it won't INCREASE your maintenance obligations. >Does anyone know if it's worth it to buy K & N air filters for your Honda? >Does it really improve gas mileage, and is it worth it to pay $70-85 CAD >upfront and then another $15.00 for the oil kit? I mean really, where's the >savings? If they were that good wouldn't manufacturers install them from the >factory? What about warranty? Do they void the warranty? they trade filtering performance for air flow performance and they void the warranty. >>Does anyone know if it's worth it to buy K & N air filters for your Honda? >>Does it really improve gas mileage, and is it worth it to pay $70-85 CAD [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >they trade filtering performance for air flow performance and they void the >warranty. FWIW, according to the service manager at my local Honda dealer, using a K&N air filter not only won't void the warranty, but he says it will neither damage the engine nor increase performance. He says he sees alot of these filters in his customers cars. I am curious though, what is the recommended maintainence period assuming normal driving conditions? The manufacturer claims 50-100K, IIRC. >>On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 18:05:16 GMT, Nino NoSpam ><Nino.NoSpam@unsubscribenews> wrot [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >>they trade filtering performance for air flow performance and they void the >>warranty. >FWIW, according to the service manager at my local Honda dealer, using a >K&N air filter not only won't void the warranty, but he says it will neither >damage the engine nor increase performance. He says he sees alot of these >filters in his customers cars. He doesn't speak for honda and your report is irrelevent. >>>On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 18:05:16 GMT, Nino NoSpam >><Nino.NoSpam@unsubscribenews> wrot [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >He doesn't speak for honda and your report is irrelevent. And neither do you. You made the statement that it voids warranty. Can you prove that? >>On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:50:45 -0500, Armand <Bluzeguitar@comcast.net> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >And neither do you. You made the statement that it voids warranty. Can you >prove that? Use of aftermarket parts doesn't "void the warranty" but the manufacturer can deny a claim if the damage was caused by the non-OEM part. If push comes to shove, they have to prove that the part caused the failure. If the cylinder walls are all scratched up and you have a K&N filter, they would probably win. http://home.usadatanet.net/%7Ejbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm I wouldn't worry much about the warranty being voided. Your engine will probably last long enough to get out of the warranty period. The K&N filter lets in a lot more dirt than a top quality paper filter. It may be less restrictive initially, but the difference diminishes and disappears as the filter clogs with dirt. This will probably happen sooner than with the paper filter. >>>On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:50:45 -0500, Armand <Bluzeguitar@comcast.net> >>wrote: [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >diminishes and disappears as the filter clogs with dirt. This will >probably happen sooner than with the paper filter. I remember seeing that posted here when I asked about the filters a while back which is why I didn't buy one. But for those that have, If anything does happen, you could put the original OEM back in if you're worried about a refusal to repair under warranty. My 96' Accord is long past it's warranty. >>>> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:50:45 -0500, Armand <Bluzeguitar@comcast.net> >>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > happen, you could put the original OEM back in if you're worried about a > refusal to repair under warranty. My 96' Accord is long past it's warranty. putting the old filter back on may work with the dealer or it may not. if a warranty claim really was push come to shove, you could examine the cylinder walls under a microscope and clearly identify a discrepancy in wear particle size, hence non-factory filtration. >>>>> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:50:45 -0500, Armand <Bluzeguitar@comcast.net> >>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] >cylinder walls under a microscope and clearly identify a discrepancy in >wear particle size, hence non-factory filtration. Can you name a single time that has ever happened? >>>>>> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:50:45 -0500, Armand <Bluzeguitar@comcast.net> >>>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > Can you name a single time that has ever happened? no i can't. i'm simply saying that it /is/ possible to tell, should someone want to be that pedantic. >>>>>>> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:50:45 -0500, Armand <Bluzeguitar@comcast.net> >>>>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] >no i can't. i'm simply saying that it /is/ possible to tell, should >someone want to be that pedantic. Bamboo shoots under the finger nails might lead to a confession too. ;} I have used a K&N filter on 3 different vehicles and not only did I recieve better gas milage but I actually had to clean my throttle body and intake manifold LESS with the K&N. And it is also true you dont need to clean it for at least 20,000, some at 50,000. The K&N "look alikes are what you need to be cautious of, they will be more restrictive and once they are wet they cannot be used again. I you want better efficiency and performance from your engine you need a K&N. The K&N does flow better but at the same time it does not let more dirt through due to the oiled cotten element. The oil traps the dirt onto the filter and does not allow it to enter the engine. If you do not oil the filter you will deffinitly let dirt through.  SignatureChromedubs165db http://www.automotiveforums.com I was about 9 years old when I found out that an 'oil-bath' air filter existed. Later I had a friend with an old Chev Biscayne (sp) that had a similar thing. There was spoonfuls of sludge in the bottom of his. It seemed logical to me, since dirt sticks to oil like s#it to a blanket. Are / were they any good and why aren't they used on modern passenger cars? 'Curly' (let the flames begin) 'Curly Q. Links' Wrote: > I was about 9 years old when I found out that an 'oil-bath' air filter > existed. Later I had a friend with an old Chev Biscayne (sp) that had [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > 'Curly' (let the flames begin) Little off subject but a good point. The old true oil bath filters are the best air filter made. They catch a lot more real fine dust than the paper types. They are still used on some HD equipment, stationary engines,farm tractors. One qt. of new oil and some cleaning and they are ready to go again. But who wants to get there hands dirty and pay the extra cost of a good oil bath filter on a new car. Way back in the early 60's when I was working for a dealer cry/dodge HD trucks went from oil bath to paper filters. The dealership sold about a 100 HD trucks for cement hauling on construction jobs. In about 5K-10K miles on every one I was overhauling everyone and installing a good HD oil bath air filter back on them. Got so I could ring one one of them in my sleep. The paper air filter would not catch the fine dust. Modern car paper filters may be a little better but do not drive in a lot of dust and dirt. A K&N might work good there. And if you do carry plenty of spare air filters.:grinyes: :rofl: :lol: MT SignatureMT-2500 http://www.automotiveforums.com > Are / were they any good and why aren't they used on modern passenger > cars? Very old Volkswagens--pre-1970--used oil-bath filters. It was a can full of excelsior with holes in the bottom sitting in ANOTHER can that you put oil in. The maintenance procedure was pretty simple: every time you changed the oil, you took the filter off the carb, separated the two cans, washed the top can out in gas and cleaned the old oil and the crap it collected out of the bottom can. After you let the gas drain out of the upper can, you put a quart of oil in the bottom can, reassembled the filter and bolted it back on the carburetor. Pros: The oil-bath filter worked VERY well. Mount Saint Helens erupted when I was a kid, and the town I lived in (St. Maries, Idaho) got belted with this crap--we were, IIRC, the town that got the second-heaviest ashfall. The only people who were running cars until the ash was cleaned up were the cops, who changed oil, oil filter and air filter twice a day (and it was a damn good thing there were only three cops in St. Maries, and people with aircooled Volkswagens. The aircooled VW people changed their air filter oil once every three days, their crankcase oil--Bugs have no oil filters--and didn't suffer any engine damage. Cons: The unit is huge. It is heavy. It requires a LOT of maintenance steps you don't have to take with a paper filter. They quit making excelsior when upholsterers went to polyurethane foam. And you know that with all the air coming through such a filter, some oil will go into the engine, be burned and trash your pollution numbers. Apparently the pros (very clean air) are outweighed by the cons (maintaining this thing SUCKS and you have no room to put the thing under your hood anyway). --jm >> Are / were they any good and why aren't they used on modern passenger >> cars? >Very old Volkswagens--pre-1970--used oil-bath filters. It was a can full They were used for a few years later than that. I had a '71 superbug that had an oil bath air cleaner. I dunno about the fuel injected bugs that arrived around '73, but all the carburated bugs had oil bath air filters. A friend of mine of a few years back had a V12 jag. It had the distinct feature of having carbs that leaked oil; or was it just the air cleaners? >I have used a K&N filter on 3 different vehicles and not only did I >recieve better gas milage but I actually had to clean my throttle body >and intake manifold LESS with the K&N. And it is also true you dont And of course you had two cars driven, one stock and one with the K&N, at the same time on the same routes so you might have the slightest validity to your finding, right? Otherwise, your findings are no different than those who think putting magnets on their fuel lines improve their gas mileage. >> I remember seeing that posted here when I asked about the filters a while >> back which is why I didn't buy one. But for those that have, If anything does [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >cylinder walls under a microscope and clearly identify a discrepancy in >wear particle size, hence non-factory filtration. Or they could find your post on the newsgroups stating you are using a K&N filter. > Does anyone know if it's worth it to buy K & N air filters for your > Honda? Read this and then decide. http://home.usadatanet.net/%7Ejbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm > Does it really improve gas mileage, and is it worth it to pay > $70-85 CAD upfront and then another $15.00 for the oil kit? I mean > really, where's the savings? If they were that good wouldn't > manufacturers install them from the factory? What about warranty? Do > they void the warranty? if you develop engine problems, your use of a K&N will *definitely* be viewed very dimly by Honda and the dealer, and my well be used to invalidate the warranty. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ When it comes to high flow filters you have to ask yourself how can someon claime to flow more air through an air filter and at the same time claime it still trap just as good as leading stock filters? I think its more like more airflow means more crap thats escaping through it and into your engine! keep in mind something has to be sacrificed here for performanc one or the other and in my opinion they cant be that good of a filter to do bot things. all the performane you need is in the "factory O.E. filter" try this.. if you notice when you hold it up to the sun or shine a flashlight through it its pretty thin already you can see a lot of light through it compared to the aftermarket cheap replacements. and O.E. are sprayed with the precise amaunt of oil on there unlike K&N if you happen to over spray its going in and on places you dont whant -- johnin > Does anyone know if it's worth it to buy K & N air filters for your > Honda? Does it really improve gas mileage, and is it worth it to > pay $70-85 CAD upfront and then another $15.00 for the oil kit? > I mean really, where's the savings? If they were that good wouldn't > manufacturers install them from the factory? What about warranty? > Do they void the warranty? Isn't your CR-V going off warranty already? The filter is good for the life of the vehicle, unless you neglect it to the point that it suffers mechanical damage during cleaning. If you do get one, then make sure to keep it clean. Cleaning the element is a pain in the neck, but you do save the cost of a new OEM style element every time you do it. In my opinion, that would be the reason to get one. My wife's CR-V had one of these in it when we bought it used. I am debating whether to keep it or not. I already have a cleaning kit for the Turbo City Rock-It! Air Tube and K&N I have on my Jeep. I have to be skeptical of claims that it flows significantly more air than a stock OEM filter, unless you install a less restrictive air intake that fits a significantly bigger filter element (like the one on my Jeep). These are available for some vehicles, but in my opinion only warranted for extreme use such as trailer towing or posing. You want the thing visible when you open the hood, and you want it to make a sound you can hear. The K&N for the CR-V is just a boring drop-in replacement. The kind of damage to be expected from a defective or inferior air cleaner element is accelerated cylinder and piston wear. If your CR-V starts blowing blue smoke and the oil needs to be refilled more often, then I guess the nay-sayers were right. Earle >> Does anyone know if it's worth it to buy K & N air filters for your >> Honda? Does it really improve gas mileage, and is it worth it to >> pay $70-85 CAD upfront and then another $15.00 for the oil kit? >> I mean really, where's the savings? If they were that good wouldn't >> manufacturers install them from the factory? What about warranty? >> Do they void the warranty? > I have to be skeptical of claims that it flows significantly more air > than a stock OEM filter, Just get a generic cone air filter off ebay. It comes with the intake piping and everything for just about 15 bucks. It does make a difference and it's cheap as hell. I was surprised when I first tried one. Made my stock civic sound like a WWII bomber plane on a dive without modifying the exhaust at all. Better performance at high rpms. Seemed to give better fuel milage. Cheap. Can't beat it. > Does anyone know if it's worth it to buy K & N air filters for your Honda? > Does it really improve gas mileage, and is it worth it to pay $70-85 CAD [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Nino Yo Nino, I've been using K&N filters on a Ford Explorer and Toyota Tundra (dont have one yet for my Element) and I have been VERY happy with them. I prefer high-quality reusable filters vs the disposable ones. Same is true for my house air circulation system. I asked the people over at K&N to weigh in on this; here is the reply. Great topic - thank you for bringing it up!!!! -Steve _________________________________________________________ The internet is full of thread akin to this. Many people assume that they understand the nuances of filtration. There are so many misconceptions in that thread alone it would take a good hour to explain in type the how and whys. Then you would need to do this at about 2K BBB's. K&N filters meet and exceed factory air filters for air flow, capacity holding and filter efficiency. All these are tested using the ISO 5011 standards that all major air filter manufactures use. The "testand" report is full of holes too. The author of that report was invited to come to our facilities and bring what ever filters he wanted to conduct the test as per the official ISO 5011. his prior test was not done correctly. He did show up and did his tests and is soon to write a follow up of this experience and his new learning. It is against the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act ( A Federal Trade Commission Law) for a dealer to decline warranty on a vehicle because of use of a K&N or any other aftermarket air filter. These links may help you understand more. http://www.knfilters.com/warrantyletter.htm http://www.knfilters.com/filter_facts.htm Read the second link in entirety. There is a wealth of information there. >> Does anyone know if it's worth it to buy K & N air filters for your Honda? >> Does it really improve gas mileage, and is it worth it to pay $70-85 CAD [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > >http://www.knfilters.com/warrantyletter.htm Which says in part: "This does not preclude a warrantor from expressly excluding liability for defects or damage caused by such "unauthorized" articles or service; nor does it preclude the warrantor from denying liability where the warrantor can demonstrate that the defect or damage was so caused." IOW, if Honda can show that your engine was damaged because the K&N filter let in too much dirt, they can deny your warranty claim. Again, it probably doesn't matter because the engine will not be destroyed during the 36K or 48K warranty period. If the filter lets in 3X as much dirt, the engine will ingest ~150K worth of dirt by the time the warranty expires. Since most engines don't expire from any cause in 150K, it should still be working at 50K. What it is like when it actually gets to 150K is another story. >http://www.knfilters.com/filter_facts.htm > >Read the second link in entirety. There is a wealth of information >there. A lot of theoretical arguments about why the reusable filter should be better but not much in the way of hard data. They even admit they aren't using the "new" ISO 5011 to generate what little data they do provide. (ISO 5011 is at least two years old. You would think that a company specializing in air filters could test them using the latest procedure and post the results. If they really want to convince us, they could test some OEM and other manufacturer's aftermarket filters as well.) Using the old test procedure, "K&N air filters generally achieve overall filtration efficiency in the range of 97% - 98%." The reference I posted: http://home.usadatanet.net/%7Ejbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm got an efficiency of 96.8% using ISO 5011. The paper filters tested were mostly in the 98.63 to 99.93% range. That means that the K&N filter will admit 2 to 40 times more dirt into the engine. Note far more information and data is this site. The K&N site is long on sales pitch but short on actual data. <snip> > Note far more information and data is this site. The K&N site is long > on sales pitch but short on actual data. you know that. i know that. felton or steve or whatever his name is, also knows that. but he's a sales troll. some people actually make a living out of trolling news groups, wikipedia, blogs, etc. with garbage like that. ever seen the movie, "thank you for smoking"?. if not, rent it. it's a tremendous story about people like steve or felton or whoever his name is. ><snip> >> Note far more information and data is this site. The K&N site is long [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >it. it's a tremendous story about people like steve or felton or >whoever his name is. Thanks for the tip. I like documentaries and consumer issues, so it sounds like a must see. I am aware of "guerilla marketing" tactics where (beautiful) people are paid to go into public and pretend to be just people surreptitiously exposing strangers to a brand/product. Creating "buzz" you know. I think this type of activity should be illegal. If they want to hawk their products in public they should be required to state at the outset that they are paid marketers. > <snip> > > Note far more information and data is this site. The K&N site is long [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > it. it's a tremendous story about people like steve or felton or > whoever his name is. Hey Jim Beam or whatever your name is -- I am not a sales troll. I am a Honda owner (two of them) and thought I would participate in this forum. I was simply providing MY OPINION and also allowing someone from KnN an opportunity to WEIGH IN on the thread. Is that what this forum is about? You've made quite a personal SLAM here. I do not appreciate it AT ALL. If you were standing in front of me, I bet you would not have the courage to say that to my face. Just because you dont like K&N filters, and you obviously dont like any opinions other than your own, next time you try to assassinate someone's character, ask yourself: WOULD YOU HAVE THE GONADS TO SAY IT TO THEIR FACE? >> <snip> >>> Note far more information and data is this site. The K&N site is long [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > someone's character, ask yourself: WOULD YOU HAVE THE GONADS TO SAY IT > TO THEIR FACE? grow up felton or steve or whatever your name is. as it happens, i would say it to your face. trust me on that one. but before we take this out to the parking lot, here's some homework for you: modern filtration standards that allow an engine to keep within reasonable emissions levels for 100k miles, require filtration efficiency of 99.8% by weight. typical road use particle size spectrum is 0.01 microns to 2mm, with 75% being in the 5 to 100 micron range. so, regarding this filter that you believe performs so well, 1. what is the filtration efficiency? 2. what is the particle size spectrum it filters? and most importantly, 3. how does "cleaning" affect this filtration profile? no hurry, but please take the trouble to let us know when you have the answers. it would also be good to know your opinions on how many miles you think is acceptable for engine life being as particle ingestion has a direct effect on wear. ps. you may find some independent research useful: http://home.usadatanet.net/%7Ejbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm > grow up felton or steve or whatever your name is. as it happens, i > would say it to your face. trust me on that one. but before we take > this out to the parking lot, here's some homework for you: Yeah, I will get right on your homework assignment, right after I grow up. Real nice, jim beam. Enjoy yourself. |
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