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Car Forum / Honda Cars / August 2006Proper Radiator Cap Pressure Rating for 1994 Honda Accord EX?
1994 Honda Accord EX, 4 door 4 cylinder, Automatic Transmission I just recently replaced the Radiator fan motor, and now both my AC fan and Radiator fan seem to be capable of turning on and off. However, I don't think that they are turning on soon enough. With the recent hot weather here in PA, if I idle the car with the AC off, I've noticed that the temperature gauge needle will rise to just under the red zone (hot), and then both fans (AC and Radiator) will come on, cool things a little, turn off and then cycle on and off as they should, but at a generally higher temperature than I remember in the past. The radiator cap is rated at 13 psi. Is this the correct rating for the above vehicle? I am wondering if it may have been accidentally replaced last summer. Thanks, Gary > 1994 Honda Accord EX, 4 door > 4 cylinder, Automatic Transmission [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Gary before worrying about the cap pressure, consider the following: when was the thermostat last replaced? in what condition is the radiator? is it clogged/sludged? filled with bugs? what level is the coolant? are you losing any? any bubbles in it? [check inside the radiator, not just look at the expansion bottle.] > > 1994 Honda Accord EX, 4 door > > 4 cylinder, Automatic Transmission [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > what level is the coolant? are you losing any? any bubbles in it? > [check inside the radiator, not just look at the expansion bottle.] The thermostat was replaced last summer. When I looked into the radiator recently I did not see anything particulary unsightly, but I suspect that it may have been six years and 50K since the antifreeze has been changed. I keep the coolant level between Cold and Hot, and I don't appear to be losing any. I thought that I saw bubbles once in the expansion bottle, so I fiddled with the radiator cap, and they seemed to go away. I imagine that I could be due for some kind of radiator flush and antifreeze replacement. The antifreeze doesn't look too bad, but I suspect I've seen cleaner. I called an auto parts place just to see what pressure rating was listed for my Honda Accord's radiator cap and they said 16 psi. Since the one that I have is 13 psi I wonder if it is the wrong radiator cap, and if it would make a significant difference in the ECT sensor's ability to turn the fans on at the correct temperature. Or, is six year old antifreeze more likely to be a factor? Thanks, Gary The temperature level should not go above the 1/4 mark on he 94-97 models. On my 95 Accord in the 9 years that I have owned it never went past that mark. You could have some air in the system. I would suggest that you purge that air out first and go from there. I'm not certain if the cap could be a problem but just to rule out any possibilities, I'd get one from your local Honda dealer. They shouldn't be that expensive to get and it's one thing to rule out of the checklist. Good Luck, Nick >> > 1994 Honda Accord EX, 4 door >> > 4 cylinder, Automatic Transmission [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >Thanks, >Gary >>> 1994 Honda Accord EX, 4 door >>> 4 cylinder, Automatic Transmission [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > suspect that it may have been six years and 50K since the antifreeze > has been changed. hard to change the thermostat without changing the coolant. > I keep the coolant level between Cold and Hot, and > I don't appear to be losing any. I thought that I saw bubbles once in the > expansion bottle, so I fiddled with the radiator cap, and they seemed > to go away. hmm, that's suspect. > I imagine that I could be due for some kind of radiator > flush and antifreeze replacement. The antifreeze doesn't look too bad, > but I suspect I've seen cleaner. can't hurt. > I called an auto parts place just to see what pressure rating was listed for > my Honda Accord's radiator cap and they said 16 psi. Since the one that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the correct > temperature. no, it won't affect that at all. a higher pressure cap just elevates the boiling point a little. > Or, is six year old antifreeze more likely to be a factor? not unless it's really dirty. check the thermal switch and the fan relays for operation. if the switch checks out ok, to eliminate the head gasket as a suspect, have a chemical test done on the coolant to see if there's exhaust gas in there. then look at the radiator again. they fill up with bugs and all kinds of other debris that impairs airflow significantly. if replacement is in order, i've had good experience with these folks: http://catalog.eautopartscatalog.com/ipb/wizard.jsp?partner=ipb&clientid=alleura sianautoparts&baseurl=http://www.alleurasianautoparts.com/&cookieid=1TU0Y4A0K1US 16U12G&year=1994&make=HO&model=ACC-EX2-002&category=G&part=Radiator&appTransmiss ionType=Automatic i'd go plastic tank. >>>> 1994 Honda Accord EX, 4 door >>>> 4 cylinder, Automatic Transmission [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >> suspect that it may have been six years and 50K since the antifreeze >> has been changed. >hard to change the thermostat without changing the coolant. Only if you do the job with the car upside down. >>>>> 1994 Honda Accord EX, 4 door >>>>> 4 cylinder, Automatic Transmission [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Only if you do the job with the car upside down. ok, let's be pedantic because you know i'm like that. the elevation of the thermostat relative to the engine block is about 2/3rds the height of the whole. and of that, the head carries a significant quantity of the coolant. for the engine, i therefore estimate you'll lose roughly 1/2 its fill of coolant. for the radiator, i estimate roughly 1/3rd. hoses, maybe another 1/3rd. that makes roughly 40% of the coolant changes with a thermostat. that's a higher percentage than you can change on the automatic transmission. >>>>>> 1994 Honda Accord EX, 4 door >>>>>> 4 cylinder, Automatic Transmission [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] >> > ok, let's be pedantic because you know i'm like that. I don't know what I'd call you, except it's not "pedantic." Let's just be honest. One does not have to change the coolant on all Hondas after a thermostat change. Have a gallon of coolant (OEM or whatever is used in the car) on hand, because one certainly will lose some. > the elevation of the thermostat relative to the engine > block is about 2/3rds the height of the whole. and of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > thermostat. that's a higher percentage than you can > change on the automatic transmission. That's the ball park. > >>> 1994 Honda Accord EX, 4 door > >>> 4 cylinder, Automatic Transmission [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > airflow significantly. if replacement is in order, i've had good > experience with these folks: http://catalog.eautopartscatalog.com/ipb/wizard.jsp?partner=ipb&clientid=alleura sianautoparts&baseurl=http://www.alleurasianautoparts.com/&cookieid=1TU0Y4A0K1US 16U12G&year=1994&make=HO&model=ACC-EX2-002&category=G&part=Radiator&appTransmiss ionType=Automatic > i'd go plastic tank. This car is mostly driven on short trips over country roads. It is only recently that we are having really hot weather here in PA, so I suspect that this problem may have existed for awhile, possibly since last summer. Yesterday was particularly hot, and I drove the car for about an hour before I noticed that the fans were cycling at a higher than expected temperature (around the 3/4 mark). Overnight things cooled off, and when I checked the antifreeze reservoir, it looked like the radiator may have sipped about a pint out of it. I removed the radiator cap, started up the engine and added antifreeze whenever I could. I would say that it may have taken another pint . Now the fans are back to cycling on and off at about the 1/4 mark as Nick indicated. So I think that might be back in business. I did notice some things when I purged the radiator: 1) I would sometimes see bubbles coming from the coolant at the radiator fill. 2) The level of coolant would go up and sometimes overflow the radiator when I revved the engine up to about 2000 RPM. Do either of these things imply a bad head gasket? If so, maybe that is the reason that I needed to add coolant. If not, maybe the radiator was never properly purged last summer when the thermostat was changed. How can you tell when the thermostat opens? Does the big hose on top of the radiator become pressurized? Thanks everyone for all the help. Gary >>>>> 1994 Honda Accord EX, 4 door >>>>> 4 cylinder, Automatic Transmission [quoted text clipped - 93 lines] > fans are back > to cycling on and off at about the 1/4 mark as Nick indicated. excellent. you'll see gas mileage improve now too! > So I think > that might be back > in business. I did notice some things when I purged the radiator: > > 1) I would sometimes see bubbles coming from the coolant at the radiator > fill. that's normal when refilling. fill it as much as you can, then put the cap back on and crack open the bleed nipple. let some air out, close, rev the engine, and crack open the nipple one more time. bubbles you see after a few minutes and at full working temperature are suspect. keep the heater full on while doing this too. > 2) The level of coolant would go up and sometimes overflow > the radiator when I revved the engine up to about 2000 RPM. that's normal - don't worry about it. the fluid expands as it gets warm and will surge as the pump increases pressure. > Do either of these things imply a bad head gasket? no. > If so, maybe that is the > reason that I needed to > add coolant. If not, maybe the radiator was never properly purged last > summer when the thermostat > was changed. let's say the system was never purged. replenish accordingly, but stay on top of this situation by checking daily. the early stages of a gasket failure have very minor symptoms and may persist for a considerable period before they get bad enough to warrant surgery. > How can you tell when the thermostat opens? Does the big hose on top of the > radiator become > pressurized? there will be pressure, but that's not a result of the thermostat function - pressure is equal throughout the system. the thermostat's open when the /bottom/ hose gets hot. > Thanks everyone for all the help. > > Gary > >>>>> 1994 Honda Accord EX, 4 door > >>>>> 4 cylinder, Automatic Transmission [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > >> airflow significantly. if replacement is in order, i've had good > >> experience with these folks: http://catalog.eautopartscatalog.com/ipb/wizard.jsp?partner=ipb&clientid=alleura sianautoparts&baseurl=http://www.alleurasianautoparts.com/&cookieid=1TU0Y4A0K1US 16U12G&year=1994&make=HO&model=ACC-EX2-002&category=G&part=Radiator&appTransmiss ionType=Automatic > >> i'd go plastic tank. > > [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > > > > Gary Where is the bleed nipple on the radiator. Is it possible that some radiators don't have one. Or are some radiator caps equipped with a bleed nipple? Thanks, Gary >>>>>>> 1994 Honda Accord EX, 4 door >>>>>>> 4 cylinder, Automatic Transmission [quoted text clipped - 148 lines] > Thanks, > Gary it's not on the radiator - it's on the aluminum engine casting where one of the big radiator hoses connect. > 1994 Honda Accord EX, 4 door > 4 cylinder, Automatic Transmission [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > am wondering if it > may have been accidentally replaced last summer. Check the thermostat rating. You should be using a DEALER thermostat, with a rating of 78C. A 90C (190F) thermostat will cause overheating. Also, your rad cap should be stamped "1.1" bar, or about 16lbs. A 13lb cap is stamped "0.9".  SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > > 1994 Honda Accord EX, 4 door > > 4 cylinder, Automatic Transmission [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Also, your rad cap should be stamped "1.1" bar, or about 16lbs. A 13lb cap > is stamped "0.9". The thermostat was replaced last summer. Hopefully, the mechanic used the correct one. Recent purging of the system seems to have helped, but I suspect that something is still wrong, and that I should change the radiator cap. The actual installed radiator cap is stamped "13lb" and "0.9", so it appears to be the wrong one. Does this mean that the coolant would be inclined to boil prematurely, and if so, what effect would that have? Would boiling coolant impair the ability of the temperature gauge sensor and ECT sensor to sense the proper temperature and respond properly? Would boiling coolant effect the tarnsfer of heat from the block to the coolant? Is there any reason why one would intentionally install a radiator cap with a 13lb rating instead of 16lb? A car with 300K is certainly a candidate for a blown head gasket. Would installing a lower pressure rated 13lb radiator cap instead of a 16lb cap be a good way to keep coolant from being blown out the exhaust pipe? Thanks, Gary > The thermostat was replaced last summer. Hopefully, the mechanic used > the correct one. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > would be inclined to boil prematurely, and if so, what effect would > that have? It's possible. Change the cap with new OEM, top up the rad and see what happens. The critical thing is that the reservoir level should rise with a hot engine, but then go back down to its usual cold level when cold again. If it does not, the water is being displaced with air. By the way, this can also happen if the fluid connection between reservoir and rad filler neck is compromised. If there is a leak in that circuit, the engine will be unable to suck coolant back into the rad as it cools. At this point, reading this thread through, I'm suspecting a failed head gasket. Your low coolant level, bubbles in the reservoir, overheating at idle...bad signs. You need to investigate that possibility if s new OEM rad cap doesn't help. > Is there any reason why one would intentionally install a radiator cap > with a 13lb rating instead > of 16lb? Mistake. But their operating ranges overlap, so this should not be a disaster. A blown head gasket will cause more problems than the wrong cap. > A car with 300K is certainly a candidate for a blown head > gasket. You bet. Get a"pressure test" (NOT a "compression test") done. Some garages can do a chemical test for combustion gases in the coolant, which is probably better. > Would installing a > lower pressure rated 13lb radiator cap instead of a 16lb cap be a good > way to keep coolant from > being blown out the exhaust pipe? In your case, probably not. I'd replace the cap and top up the coolant in the rad. If that doesn't work, get the head gasket checked as above. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > > 1994 Honda Accord EX, 4 door > > 4 cylinder, Automatic Transmission [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Check the thermostat rating. You should be using a DEALER thermostat, with > a rating of 78C. A 90C (190F) thermostat will cause overheating. I installed a cap. It was not a dealer cap, but it looks just like one. My radiator is probably an aftermarket one. I know the radiator fan is NipponDenzo, and I think the radiator is also. There is no writing on the radiator to identify it. I've seen the Toyo radiator cap, and I don't think it would work on my radiator, so I think that the "NipponDenzo type" cap is the correct cap. At this time, the reservoir level increases when the engine heats up, but still stays at that elevated level when the engine cools down. The radiator and AC fans cycle on and off properly, and the temperature gauge stays steady about 1/4 of the way up from C (Cold). If I open up the radiator cap in the morning when it is cool, I usually have to add about 2 or 3 cups of coolant. There are no more bubbles in the coolant, and there are no coolant leaks anywhere on the ground under the car or on the engine or radiator. No unusual exhaust, and the oil looks normal. Either I am still purging the system of air or I am in the early stages of a head gasket problem. The thermostat was replaced last summer. If it was mistakenly replaced with the 90C instead of the 78C, then my engine block could be 12C higher than it should be. Would this put undo strain on the head gasket? If it turns out to be a headgasket problem, would it be wise to use the 13lb radiator cap instead of the 16lb? Thanks > At this time, the reservoir level increases when the engine heats up, > but still stays at that > elevated level when the engine cools down. Bad, bad, bad sign. Very bad. Check this though: The line running from rad filler neck to the bottom of the expansion reservoir tube. If it has been breached in *any* way, the engine will not be able to suck in fluid as it cools, but will suck air instead. The connection must be *absolutely* airtight. > The radiator and AC fans > cycle on and off properly, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Either I am still purging the system of air or I am in the early > stages of a head gasket problem. I vote for the second one (if the expansion hose is OK). Better get it looked at. Failure to quickly address a possible failed head gasket will result in a greatly increased chance of making the engine uneconomic to repair. Make haste to a garage. Don't fool around with rad caps any more. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > > At this time, the reservoir level increases when the engine heats up, > > but still stays at that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > engine will not be able to suck in fluid as it cools, but will suck air > instead. The connection must be *absolutely* airtight. I checked this line throughly and, unfortunately, it has no problems. I guess I have some kind of gasket problem. I did find out from my mechanic that he installed the 90C thermostat, and not the OEM 78C one. I wonder if that might have some effect on this condition. When I shut the engine off and it cools down, the thermostat closes at 90C instead of 78C. If I changed the thermostat to the OEM 78C one, would the engine somehow have an improved opportunity to draw coolant from the reservoir? Would the thermostat being open for that additional 12C differential create more suction from the reservoir as opposed to through the head gasket? Does that make any sense or is it just "wishful thinking"? Thanks again > I did find out from my mechanic that he installed the 90C thermostat, > and not the > OEM 78C one. Oh, that changes everything! I did mention to check that, a few posts ago. > I wonder if that might have some effect on this > condition. When I shut the engine off and it cools down, the > thermostat closes at 90C instead of > 78C. You have it sort of backwards. It *begins to open* at 90C, which is WELL above the proper temperature for that motor. A 90C thermostat will cause the car to overheat. Your mechanic has committed a serious mistake here. > If I changed the thermostat to the OEM 78C one, would the engine > somehow [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > sense or is it just > "wishful thinking"? Replacing the thermostat is certainly worth a try. If the fluid boils so as to cause the top of the rad to be filled with gas and not fluid, the engine will be unable to pull fluid from the reservoir back into the rad. Put the proper **DEALER** thermostat in and see what happens. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> I did find out from my mechanic that he installed the 90C thermostat, >> and not the [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Put the proper **DEALER** thermostat in and see what happens. what tegger said. wrong thermostat is not good. consider a different mechanic in the future. > > I did find out from my mechanic that he installed the 90C thermostat, > > and not the [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Put the proper **DEALER** thermostat in and see what happens. I picked up a thermostat at a Honda dealer and installed it last night. So far, it does not seem to have made any difference in my symptoms. Maybe the damage is already done. I will continue to monitor things just to make sure that all the air has been purged from the system. I am also wondering what part the sensors for the radiator fans play in keeping the coolant from boiling. I have noticed that after starting the car, it seems to take about 20 minutes before the fans come on, and when they do, both fans come on at once, never just one. When they turn off, they both turn off simultaneously. This happens even when the AC is completely off in the car. Is it possible that a sensor is not "telling" one of the fans to come on at a lower temperature? Also, are these fans set up for one speed or two speeds? Thanks for the help. >>> I did find out from my mechanic that he installed the 90C thermostat, >>> and not the [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > I picked up a thermostat at a Honda dealer and installed it last night. > So far, it does not seem to have made any difference in my symptoms. monitor that coolant level. > Maybe the damage is already done. I will continue to monitor things > just to make sure that all the air has been purged from the system. the wrong temp thermostat won't "damage" the engine, but it'll change normal operations. it'll revert beck to normal with the correct one. > I am also wondering what part the sensors for the radiator fans > play in keeping the coolant from boiling. I have noticed that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > "telling" one of the fans to come on at a lower temperature? Also, are these > fans set up for one speed or two speeds? there's only one fan temp sensor, so unless one is triggered by a separate circuit like the a/c, they'll both come on together. > Thanks for the help. >> I picked up a thermostat at a Honda dealer and installed it last >> night. So far, it does not seem to have made any difference in my [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the wrong temp thermostat won't "damage" the engine, but it'll change > normal operations. it'll revert beck to normal with the correct one. It CAN damage the engine, and that's Gary's threat right now. If the cooling fluid boils for long enough during the engine's operation, localized overheating may warp the head and cause gasket failure. He's been driving around with the wrong 'stat for a quite a while now. Honda blocks are quite strong and do not often distort unless severely abused. It's normally the head that gets damaged. Gary's next step (to be performed **ASAP** and by a more competent mechanic than the one that put the 90C unit in) is to get a pressure check done, or a combustion gas analysis performed. Either will confirm or deny the presence of head gasket failure. Usually failure is dramatic enough to create bubbles under air pressure. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>> I picked up a thermostat at a Honda dealer and installed it last >>> night. So far, it does not seem to have made any difference in my [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > It CAN damage the engine, and that's Gary's threat right now. If the > cooling fluid boils for long enough during the engine's operation, but a 'stat that opens at 90 simply means the motor runs too hot - it's still well below boiling, especially on a pressurized system. > localized overheating may warp the head and cause gasket failure correct, but localized overheating is where it's boiled dry. >. He's been > driving around with the wrong 'stat for a quite a while now. > > Honda blocks are quite strong and do not often distort unless severely > abused. It's normally the head that gets damaged. yes, because that bit boils dry before the block does. > Gary's next step (to be performed **ASAP** and by a more competent mechanic > than the one that put the 90C unit in) is to get a pressure check done, or > a combustion gas analysis performed. Either will confirm or deny the > presence of head gasket failure. Usually failure is dramatic enough to > create bubbles under air pressure. mine would only bubble under extended full throttle. the only clue was that there was gas in the system so it wouldn't suck back properly. purged, it would suck back fine under normal driving, and would behave itself for some time until the car got given its next good workout. only with extended repetition of this process over many months [i.e. nearly 2 years] did this finally start getting bad enough to be "noticeable", and even then, it was only because i was gunning grapevine every couple of weeks. if i were not a picky kind of person and/or a more gentle driver, doubtless it would have survived many more months before degrading to the point where it got to be a problem. > >>> I did find out from my mechanic that he installed the 90C thermostat, > >>> and not the [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > there's only one fan temp sensor, so unless one is triggered by a > separate circuit like the a/c, they'll both come on together. Does anyone know what temperatures the sensor turns the fans on and off? > Does anyone know what temperatures the sensor turns the fans > on and off? Above 88.5C to 91.5C (it's a range, not an absolute figure). SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > > Does anyone know what temperatures the sensor turns the fans > > on and off? > > Above 88.5C to 91.5C (it's a range, not an absolute figure). OK. I did some experimenting. I was suspicious that the new 16 lb radiator cap that I put on the radiator in replacement of the old 13 lb cap was not working correctly either. So I spoke to the previous owner, and found out that the current radiator is an aftermarket radiator. So I installed another similar 16 lb cap, and things seem to be working slightly differently: Starting with a "cold" engine in the morning on a warm summer day, it takes about 17 minutes of parked idling (w/ occasional 2000 RPM) before the AC fan and radiator fans come on. When they do come on, they only come on for about 13 seconds, and they seem to only be coming on every 4 minutes. Even though the temperature gauge is only 1/4 of the way above the C, the engine "seems" hot. There is bubbling in the reservoir. However, the level of the coolant in the reservoir does not rise as long as the car is sitting still. If I take the car out on the open road and allow the natural flow of air over the radiator, I find that the reservoir level rises about 1-1/2 inches. And when I stop the engine and things cool down, it drops back down 1-1/2 inches. This new cap seems to be making that possible. Also, I had taken your advice awhile back and removed about 1" of possibly ill-fitting hose between the radiator cap and expansion tank. The success of this possible improvement may have been masked by the previous faulty cap. I am thinking (hoping) that the bubbling is not combustion gas, but rather coolant that is boiling because the fans are not coming on when they should. Both fans work, and they have new brushes. No intermittent problems involving the fans themselves. I suspect that the fans are coming on at a temperature that is in excess of the boiling point of 50/50 coolant at 16 psi, which is probably well over the 88.5C to 91.5C range that you cited. When I drive down the highway, I'm thinking that the natural air flow does what the fans fail to do, and makes it possible for liquid to transfer to the reservior instead of bubbles. I see references to ECT & TW sensors, and Auxiliary Fan Switch. Are they all the same thing? What is the sensor that turns on the fans on 94 Honda Accord EX (4 cyl, 4door)? I suspect I could remove the sensor and check for contnuity by placing the sensing part in boiling water, just to see if it responds. This car has only been used for short trips over country roads, with very little stop and go. It has almost 300K, and I suspect that the sensor (whatever it's called) is original. Thanks, Gary >>> Does anyone know what temperatures the sensor turns the fans >>> on and off? [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > way above the C, the > engine "seems" hot. There is bubbling in the reservoir. <snip> ok, if you're getting bubbling /after/ you've purged the system, it's head gasket. sorry to be the bearer of bad news. the higher pressure cap may delay onset a little, but it won't fix it. the good news is that the parts are relatively cheap. if you want to do the job yourself, it takes about a day if you want to do the job cleanly and well. if not, the local shop will charge about one months worth of new car payment. if the gasket's done cleanly [*NO* sandpaper or other abrasive used to clean anything up], you should be able to get another 50k to 100k out of this car. > ok, if you're getting bubbling /after/ you've purged the > system, it's head gasket. sorry to be the bearer of bad [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > takes about a day if you want to do the job cleanly and > well. Seems to me this assumes the head will not need machining. That's a mighty big gamble to take. > if not, the local shop will charge about one months worth > of new car payment. But more than likely will check the head surface and send it out for machining as necessary. >> ok, if you're getting bubbling /after/ you've purged the >> system, it's head gasket. sorry to be the bearer of bad [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Seems to me this assumes the head will not need machining. > That's a mighty big gamble to take. no it's not. honda heads don't warp unless they've been badly overheated, like what happens if you lose coolant on the freeway and don't bother to check the gauges. a little bubbling won't cause warping. >> if not, the local shop will charge about one months worth >> of new car payment. > > But more than likely will check the head surface and send it > out for machining as necessary. don't assume the head is warped. yes, a lot of shops will send it in even if it's perfectly flat because they make more money that way, but it doesn't mean the work is necessary. you should know that by now elle - that's why you do your own work - you want it done right and you want it done without unwarranted expense. >> Seems to me this assumes the head will not need >> machining. That's a mighty big gamble to take. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the freeway and don't bother to check the gauges. a > little bubbling won't cause warping. We disagree. To back this up, a friend of mine kept her 99 Honda Civic out of the red zone for a month or so while there was evidence of a head gasket leak (overheating; loss of coolant). The shop said the head was warped and had to be machined. (But keep reading.) It's a gamble. Toss in that it might not be a head gasket breach but a breach elsewhere in the block, and it's an even bigger gamble. >>> if not, the local shop will charge about one months >>> worth of new car payment. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > send it in even if it's perfectly flat because they make > more money that way, Sure, that's possible. >but it doesn't mean the work is necessary. you should know >that by now elle - that's why you do your own work - you >want it done right and you want it done without unwarranted >expense. You should know by now that do-it-yourselfers have limited tools which may preclude the checks--and certainly the machining--of which we are speaking. IMO too often you tell amateurs to take simple problems to a shop, or spend money for this or that when it's not well-warranted. So telling someone that they can do a head gasket (and it might not even be the head gasket) is kinda reckless. Either way, the OP has some opinions on this at this point. <shrug> >>> Seems to me this assumes the head will not need >>> machining. That's a mighty big gamble to take. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > breach elsewhere in the block, and it's an even bigger > gamble. elle, you've evidently never had a honda head off. the liners are held by a thin alloy casting, then there's a huge water gap, then the block starts again. because the casting is so thin around the liners, there's very little thermal stress because there's very little heat differential. and guess what, that's why honda blocks hardly ever crack. but gaskets leak because the down side of this thin "free" liner concept is that it allows the liners to move slightly relative to the head. but that's a different story. regarding warpage, it's real easy to test. get a metal sided spirit level or even a steel straight edge, and a set of feeler gauges. it's immediately apparent if there's warpage, and if there is, you can measure with the gauges the extent and whether it's within limits. >>>> if not, the local shop will charge about one months >>>> worth of new car payment. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > tools which may preclude the checks--and certainly the > machining--of which we are speaking. measuring warpage is real easy. if it's warped beyond limits, take it to the machine shop! but if it's not, don't waste the money. indeed, /definitely/ don't waste the money because there's more to it than just the cost - there's the effect on compression ratio and valve clearance. machining warped heads is questionable too because of the considerations of running a straight cam in a warped head - most head shops won't even /attempt/ to address this. > IMO too often you tell amateurs to take simple problems to > a shop, if you mean my advice to that pillock red cloud, that guy shouldn't even drive, let alone try to mess about under the hood. the /only/ advice to him, short of taking the bus, is to take the vehicle to someone that knows what they're doing. he doesn't have a clue, and based on experience here, never will. > or spend money for this or that when it's not > well-warranted. So telling someone that they can do a head > gasket (and it might not even be the head gasket) is kinda > reckless. it's involved and it takes time, but it's not hard. especially not if you have the book in front of you. the only special tool you need is a pulley wheel holder, but you seem to have no problem recommending kludges for that. > Either way, the OP has some opinions on this at this point. > <shrug> and that's what i'm trying to address. he's doing the right thing in that he's eliminated every other possibility, but at this point, the conclusion of where the fault lies is inescapable, so he needs to move to the next level. he's clearly concerned about the mileage vs. cost of repair, so perspective is required - all i see you doing at this point is muddying the water with theoretical fears vs. hands-on experience, and that helps no one. "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote E >> Toss in that it might not be a head gasket breach but a >> breach elsewhere in the block, and it's an even bigger [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > differential. and guess what, that's why honda blocks > hardly ever crack. Yours is a non sequitur. I said nothing about the frequency of the blocks cracking. You yourself are admitting it's a gamble. I think you bullshit your way through way too much here. AFAIC it's at the point where anything you say is suspect. >> IMO too often you tell amateurs to take simple problems >> to a shop, > > if you mean my advice to that pillock red cloud, that guy > shouldn't even drive, let alone try to mess about under > the hood. Nope, I mean the crap you post to many people here; the belittling remarks you make to newbies just trying to get some help (like they need more trouble when their car is not running right; etc. Daddy didn't give you enough attention, did he? > and that's what i'm trying to address. he's doing the > right thing in that he's eliminated every other > possibility, but at this point, the conclusion of where > the fault lies is inescapable, so he needs to move to the > next level. Typical assertion of opinion as a fact. It's why you have no credibility with me: Your under daddy-fed ego gets in the way of truth. Good day, boy. searching at www.groups.google.com for {(Honda OR Civic OR Accord) cracked (head OR block)} turns up numerous reports (not mere speculation but actual) of cracked heads and blocks for a number of years of Honda models. > searching at www.groups.google.com for {(Honda OR Civic OR > Accord) cracked (head OR block)} turns up numerous reports > (not mere speculation but actual) of cracked heads and > blocks for a number of years of Honda models. look again elle and try to differentiate between generic statements of speculation like "it's either a blown gasket or a cracked block" and definitive statements of fact like "it was a cracked block". not many of the latter. jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:G8Kdnc0HP- uYg1DZnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.net: > measuring warpage is real easy. if it's warped beyond limits, take it > to the machine shop! but if it's not, don't waste the money. indeed, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > considerations of running a straight cam in a warped head - most head > shops won't even /attempt/ to address this. When my head was skimmed, about .002"-.003" was taken off. My mechanic says (at least on the B18) you can skim up to 1/16" off before you run into valve interference and compression issues. Up to that point, you can compensate. If you do not machine the head for warpage, there is an increased probability of early gasket failure down the line. However, he also tells me Honda heads rarely warp much unless badly abused, so you rarely need to take more than a few thou off for warpage. Machining beyond that is often done to address *corrosion*, not warpage. If the head is badly warped on account of severe overheating, he normally advises just to junk the engine, since head warpage is only a small part of the damage that will have occurred. Finally, he tells me Honda blocks are really strong. So long as they are not severely overheated or the victim of neglected coolant changes, the block faces are almost always well within flat tolerance. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:G8Kdnc0HP- > uYg1DZnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@speakeasy.net: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > (at least on the B18) you can skim up to 1/16" off before you run into > valve interference and compression issues. 1/16" or ~1.6mm is a /lot/. you'll never find a gasket that much thicker, so you're automatically into higher compression ratio territory. if you know what you're doing, that may be fine, but for a stock motor with stock componentry and regular gas, that's not a good place to go. > Up to that point, you can > compensate. If you do not machine the head for warpage, there is an > increased probability of early gasket failure down the line. if it's slightly warped, yes, but it doesn't mean it is. > However, he also tells me Honda heads rarely warp much unless badly abused, indeed. > so you rarely need to take more than a few thou off for warpage. i have two comments on that. 1. this head is bolted to an alloy block subject to a similar thermal regime to the alloy head. in the old days of alloy heads and cast iron blocks, this may have been more of an issue, but the all-alloy engine/head combos often "warp in sympathy". straightening a head may not be a great plan without paying attention to the block as well. and suddenly, that's starting to get to be a much more expensive proposition. 2. skimming heads is just like skimming brake disks. most shops do it because it's "recommended", and means no personal labor involved in cleaning and prep for re-fitting. but it doesn't mean it's even halfway necessary. when i did my own head gasket recently, it took me 7 hours, of which, 3.5 was carefully cleaning up the head/block surfaces so as to not scrape or gouge them. there ain't no commercial operation i know that's going to bother with that - it's straight off to be skimmed and that's that! > Machining > beyond that is often done to address *corrosion*, not warpage. perfectly valid reason, if present. > If the head > is badly warped on account of severe overheating, he normally advises just > to junk the engine, since head warpage is only a small part of the damage > that will have occurred. absolutely. for older vehicles, i think the economics of replacing the whole shebang with a low mileage low cost jdm engine has got to be considered. > Finally, he tells me Honda blocks are really strong. So long as they are > not severely overheated or the victim of neglected coolant changes, the > block faces are almost always well within flat tolerance. absolutely. i guess my biggest deal in all this is that i've seen machine shops make real bad jobs of head skimming. but the thing just gets slapped back on the customer's car anyway because no one is going to fess up to having just trashed [replacement cost] $2500 dollars worth of componentry. i therefore do /not/ recommend head skimming unless the head is out of spec., and even then, i'll look at the block as well to see how that is. if the two "warp to fit", i may well take a view on replacing the head unmachined. but i guess i get to choose because it's my car and i do the work. in a world where the public are brainwashed into thinking that all heads need to be skimmed and all brake disks need to be skimmed, who's going to take a chance on not giving the customer what they expect? > >>> Does anyone know what temperatures the sensor turns the fans > >>> on and off? [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > head gasket. sorry to be the bearer of bad news. the higher pressure > cap may delay onset a little, but it won't fix it. Is there any chance that the bubbling is coolant that is boiling because the coolant temperature sensor is faulty and not turning on the fans soon enough? >the good news is > that the parts are relatively cheap. if you want to do the job > yourself, it takes about a day if you want to do the job cleanly I might be willing to give it a shot. Especially, if there was a specfic manual available for my exact car. Gary >>>>> Does anyone know what temperatures the sensor turns the fans >>>>> on and off? [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > coolant > temperature sensor is faulty and not turning on the fans soon enough? unlikely. antifreeze boils higher than water, higher yet with a 13lb cap and higher still with a 16lb cap. it'll /never/ boil in service unless there's something seriously wrong. >> the good news is >> that the parts are relatively cheap. if you want to do the job >> yourself, it takes about a day if you want to do the job cleanly > > I might be willing to give it a shot. Especially, if there was a specfic > manual available for my exact car. there sure is! http://www.helminc.com/helm/product2.asp?class%5F2=AHM&mk=Honda&yr=1994&md=Accor d&dt=Shop%2FService+Information&module=&from=result&Style=&Sku=61SV400&itemtype= N&mscsid=F04JGJEPXNAD9KP7M2RTCTTVB9858U3B factory honda manual. there is no finer. > Is there any chance that the bubbling is coolant that is boiling > because the coolant > temperature sensor is faulty and not turning on the fans soon enough? Gary, you're being unnecessarily analytical about this. By continuing to drive the car with a suspected failed head gasket, you are doing two things: 1) Risking corrosion of the block sealing surfaces, and 2) gas-cutting of same. Either will make the engine uneconomical to fix, and greatly hike your repair bill, from several hundred to a couple of thousand. You _MUST_ _immediately_ take the car to a garage to confirm the integrity of the head gasket before doing anything else. The cost of such a confirmation will cost you less than $100. And if the gasket IS blown, it would be foolish to spend all that money to fix it, and not spend the extra $50 to have the head machined. Yes, it's slightly possible the head is not warped, but the garage will likely refuse to warrant the repair unless you agree to the machining. If there is slight warpage, this increases the probability of early failure of the new gasket. IF, and ONLY if, the gasket is still intact, then you may noodle around trying to fix the bubbles. But even then, bubbles suggest possibly localized boiling around the combustion chambers, which WILL eventually damage the head gasket anyway. Every mile, every day that goes by that you do not get a professional to look at this increases the chance or irreversiable damage. There is a time to call it quits and leave things to the pro's. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ "Gary Kaucher" <gkaucher@spamptd.net> wrote snip for brevity > I see references to ECT & TW sensors, and Auxiliary Fan > Switch. Are they all [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > little stop and go. It has almost 300K, and I suspect that > the sensor (whatever it's called) is original. Seems like your concern about the fan sensors is not being fully addressed. For your reference, a lot of heating before the fan comes on from cold engine is usual. On a mild summer day, my 91 Civic's rad fan does not come on for 40 minutes or so. This I have timed on a few occasions in the past. Then it stays on for IIRC something like 15 seconds. Goes off. Something like five minutes later it comes on again. (I performed this check during air purges of the cooling system.) The car runs great. No overheating problems whatsoever. One could research the details of when the fan comes on, but I think the potential conflicts of questionably matched parts (thermostat, rad cap, unknown radiator and fan makes, which might mean little if anything) makes such an analysis a bit of a crap shoot as far as deducing anything. Toss in that you're just now learning where key components like the bleed nipple are, and I think maybe you're in a tad over your head, Gary. You're a sharp enough sounding person, and I think you're going to nail this sooner rather than later, but being grounded in the experience of what most often causes whatever problem in a car tempers judgement calls on what is most likely "Thee Problem." A friend of mine paid under $50 at the local Honda dealership not long ago to get the test Tegger and the Beamer describe: Pressure test the cooling system and check for exhaust gas products in the coolant. It quickly ascertained that the head gasket failed. She had them do the repair. Sure the machining can always be questioned but the fact is on a roughly $1000 repair job an extra $50 or so IIRC for the machining so one can drive knowing the car is reliable isn't such a bad deal. Car runs fine now. Of course, then the issue becomes what was behind this. Aftermarket radiators are very common in Hondas and don't seem to be a problem. Aftermarket thermostats are questionable, by reports here and IIRC the Honda manual. I'd say not to mess with aftermarket rad caps, too. I'd go with the results of the cooling system test, trust the radiator and fan (and fan sensors) for now, but as I think you already did, replace the thermostat with OEM and also the rad cap. I trust you found the free online manuals at www.autozone.com (a Chilton's manual but with many excerpts from the factory service manual) and http://www.honda.co.uk/car/owner/workshop.html (has a 91-93 Accord manual which should nonetheless have some useful info for your 94 on this). You can bounce part numbers for your 94 against the 93's using online parts sites like www.slhonda.com and www.hondaautomotiveparts.com , to see how similar they are, for one. Thanks to all "point/counterpoint" advice given in this thread. It has been very helpful in helping me establish the criteria from which to proceed. I am leaning towards the DIY attempt. I will limit myself to replacing whatever comes in a head gasket set (4 gaskets and valve seals?) for my 1994 Honda Accord EX; no timing belt, no water pump. This 300K car has enough miles on it that anything (transmission?) could go bad tomorrow, so I will replace some gaskets and seals that probably need to be fixed anyway, and we'll see where the chips fall. Right now the car is parked, and will remain so until problem is resolved. 1) What is the best way to clean the head and block surfaces without scratching anything? 2) I believe the bubbles in the coolant is just combustion gas, no oil. I have not lost any coolant since the last radiator cap was installed. The breach is currently not sufficient to cause liquid loss, just combustion gas bubbles. Would one expect the damage to the gasket(s) to be visibly apparent when I remove the head or other gaskets? Gary > "Gary Kaucher" <gkaucher@spamptd.net> wrote > snip for brevity [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > www.slhonda.com and www.hondaautomotiveparts.com , to see > how similar they are, for one. > Thanks to all "point/counterpoint" advice given in this thread. It has been > very helpful in helping me establish the criteria from which to proceed. I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > 1) What is the best way to clean the head and block surfaces without > scratching anything? for my last one, i used a 4" disposable blade scraper from woolmort. from the paint section. the wide blade reduces point contact force and therefore tendency to gouge. i've also seen others claim success with solvents, but i'm doubtful of the effectiveness if that. if you take the time, you can shave the old gasket off quite successfully. if you have success with solvent, please report accordingly! beware scraping up the soft alloy head and block, obviously. slow and steady wins this particular race. > 2) I believe the bubbles in the coolant is just combustion gas, no oil. I > have not lost any coolant [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > gasket(s) to be > visibly apparent when I remove the head or other gaskets? for the head, if you're lucky, no. head gaskets get big chunks eaten out of them if they're bad, as you've probably seen before, but in the early stages of gas leak, the most you'll see is probably just minor discoloration of the rings. if you want to keep this operation cheap, you can probably just get away with just head gasket and intake manifold gasket - because i believe you can do this job without taking the cam off. if you don't remove the cam, there's no need to change the tube seals or the valve seals. the exhaust gasket is almost always reusable. of course, if you want to do the job the factory way, you'll strip, inspect, clean and reassemble everything surgically, but paradoxically, for most of us, the problem with total strip-down is the introduction of more grit and dirt to the componentry than a partial job. grit & dirt are vitally important to avoid. the worst place of all is the cylinders. do not, do not, do not "clean" the head or cylinder surfaces with sandpaper or other abrasive. especially not scotchbrite. abrasive particles float about, get into the cylinder/piston gap and get stuck where they scrape and ruin your rings. before reassembly, raise each piston to the top of its stroke, wipe out all the material that will inevitably fall in, then with a clean cloth, wipe the cylinder as you push the piston back down again. clean, clean, clean. but wipe, no solvents. and flush the detritus out of the wet liner with a gentle hose. removing the block drain plug is a good idea for this. good luck. and don't hesitate to ask questions. > > 2) I believe the bubbles in the coolant is just combustion gas, no oil. I > > have not lost any coolant [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > early stages of gas leak, the most you'll see is probably just minor > discoloration of the rings. About 6 months ago a neighbor changed the plugs for me. He told me that one of the plugs was hard to remove, and that he almost had to use a breaking bar. Tegger mentioned something in a previous post that heads oftentimes are milled to remove corrosion. Maybe this spark plug is in the cylinder where the breach is located and the coolant leaking into it has corroded the spark plug threads. > if you want to keep this operation cheap, you can probably just get away > with just head gasket and intake manifold gasket - because i believe you > can do this job without taking the cam off. if you don't remove the > cam, there's no need to change the tube seals or the valve seals. the > exhaust gasket is almost always reusable. If the head gasket and manifold gasket are likely sources of the problem, then I will do just them, and not do tube seals and valve seals. of course, if you want to do > the job the factory way, you'll strip, inspect, clean and reassemble > everything surgically, but paradoxically, for most of us, the problem > with total strip-down is the introduction of more grit and dirt to the > componentry than a partial job. Generally speaking, the car runs good and the engine sounds good. The less I touch, the better. In and out with no footprints. > grit & dirt are vitally important to avoid. the worst place of all is > the cylinders. do not, do not, do not "clean" the head or cylinder [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > good luck. and don't hesitate to ask questions. I read where all the coolant is suppposed to be drained out, is the oil also supposed to be drained? "wet liner" = coolant passages in block? when you say "block drain plug" are you referring to coolant? Thanks, Gary >>> 2) I believe the bubbles in the coolant is just combustion gas, no oil. > I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > breaking > bar. could be coolant, could be crossed thread, could be leaking plug gasket causing leaking gas to crud up the thread. when you have the head off, take the opportunity to run a tap through the threads to clean them. gently. M14x1.25. sears/osh, etc. start from the piston side to ensure you don't perpetuate crossed thread damage. > Tegger mentioned something in a previous post that heads oftentimes > are milled > to remove corrosion. Maybe this spark plug is in the cylinder where the > breach is > located and the coolant leaking into it has corroded the spark plug threads. no. the plug is at the top of the chamber, not anywhere near the gasket. the only way it could have corroded the plug threads is if the block is cracked or if the cylinder's completely filled with coolant over time and had been left to stand for an extended period. and if /that/ had happened, it's likely to have had hydraulic lock and thus have been impossible to start. >> if you want to keep this operation cheap, you can probably just get away >> with just head gasket and intake manifold gasket - because i believe you [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > I read where all the coolant is suppposed to be drained out, is the oil also > supposed to be drained? drain coolant, but leave the oil in for the moment. on reassembly, let it flush the system, then do a change after say 50 miles, then do another change after another 500 or so. > "wet liner" = coolant passages in block? yes. > when you say "block drain plug" are you referring to coolant? yes. you'll see where it is when you're reading the manual ahead of doing the job. when ordering parts, get a new drain plug gasket/seal as these tend to corrode a little. if you don't have air tools, you'll need a pulley wheel holder and a BIG breaker bar to free the pulley wheel bolt. my local honda dealer rents these out for about $20/$30. ymmv. google this group and check out tegger.com for debate on this. other than that, the only special tool is the manual. all fasteners are metric. no need to disconnect the power steering hoses. the pump lifts to one side and there's enough flex in the rubber hoses to not need to disconnect anything. iirc, you can leave the a/c in place. don't forget the "hidden" mounting bolts that secure the intake and exhaust manifolds. everything comes apart easily once they're removed! if you're lucky, and you do the lower hangers, you can move the exhaust manifold forward without disassembling the lower pipe connections - depends if you have frame damage or not. > >>> 2) I believe the bubbles in the coolant is just combustion gas, no oil. > > I [quoted text clipped - 99 lines] > manifold forward without disassembling the lower pipe connections - > depends if you have frame damage or not. I've got everything apart and I have ordered head, intake, and exhaust gaskets from www.slhonda.com. I noticed that there was some deterioration of the intake manifold gasket in the general area of the oval shaped orange liner that I'm guessing is some kind of coolant passage. The "orange liner" was pitted and easily separated from the rest of the gasket. Maybe that was part of my coolant problem. I was unable to pass a .005 feeler gauge under a straight edge placed in various positions on the head, so I don't plan on having it shaved. I cleaned up the head and engine block. I absolutely could not scrape the black stuff off of certain areas. I had to resort to a "light hand" with a very fine emory cloth. I can still see the original "mill marks" on the head, so I don't think that I damaged anything. It would not come off any other way. Access to the lower screws made it difficult to remove the intake manifold. Should I install the intake manifold on the head before the head is installed? Otherwise, I don't see how I can torque the intake manifold screws properly. Any advice appreciated. Which holes in the engine block do I use to rinse out the coolant? So far so good. Of course, I trashed the edges of my crankshaft pulley trying to remove it. I picked up one in a junkyard for $35. Thanks for help. <snip> > I've got everything apart and I have ordered head, intake, and exhaust > gaskets from www.slhonda.com. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > separated from the rest of the gasket. Maybe that was part of my coolant > problem. maybe. but unlikely. when you get the new gasket, you'll see that area is coated in some plasticy stuff and it's probably that stuff sticking to the metal and pulling apart that make the gasket look the way it does now. > I was unable to pass a .005 feeler gauge under a straight edge placed in > various positions on the head, excellent news. > so > I don't plan on having it shaved. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > original "mill marks" on the head, so I don't > think that I damaged anything. It would not come off any other way. ok. scrub that side of the head with soap and water and one of those natural bristle scrub brushes. at least twice. then spray with wd40 to displace the water. no matter how you try, you'll get bits of silicon carbide powder in the combustion chamber area and these'll get into the area around the rings. once there, they tend to stay there scraping away until the car starts burning oil big time. gotta keep that from happening. not seeing it doesn't mean it's not there! if you ever wind up doing this job again, and you didn't this time, use the thick glass block as backing for the wet & dry. it ensures the high spots [i.e. where there are still bits of gasket] get all the abrasion and keeps everything flat. a soft block or fingers means all the surface gets abrasion, not just the high spots. > Access to the lower screws made it difficult to remove the intake manifold. > Should I install the intake manifold > on the head before the head is installed? Otherwise, I don't see how I can > torque the intake manifold screws > properly. Any advice appreciated. put the manifold on first. no reason not to. > Which holes in the engine block do I use to rinse out the coolant? is this closed or open deck? if it's open deck, just hose out the water channel that'll be wide open for you. if you unscrew the drain plug, the debris and water will flood out there. drain plug is either on the front or rear of the block. rear i think for you. 17mm or 19mm head. 22mm [iirc] hole. if it's closed deck, you should be able to figure out which are the coolant holes. if not, sell that block to a racer and buy a used jdm motor to put back in! closed deck honda blocks are rare and collect a premium from anyone looking to do high power motor rebuilds. > So far so good. Of course, I trashed the edges of my crankshaft pulley > trying to remove it. I picked up one in a > junkyard for $35. does your local dealer rent pulley wheel holders? some of the auto parts houses do too. it's best to have one so you torque the bolt correctly on reassembly. > Thanks for help. > <snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > away until the car starts burning oil big time. gotta keep that from > happening. not seeing it doesn't mean it's not there! Should I also wash out the two open combustion chambers? I had stuffed them with paper towels to catch debris when I cleaned the surface. > if you ever wind up doing this job again, and you didn't this time, use > the thick glass block as backing for the wet & dry. it ensures the high [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > put the manifold on first. no reason not to. It seems like it would be a lot easier to get the manifold attached that way. It might be a little awkward to line up the head over the block. > > Which holes in the engine block do I use to rinse out the coolant? > > is this closed or open deck? if it's open deck, just hose out the water > channel that'll be wide open for you. I see 3 holes on the front and 3 on the back. I guess they are the coolant holes. if you unscrew the drain plug, > the debris and water will flood out there. drain plug is either on the > front or rear of the block. rear i think for you. 17mm or 19mm head. > 22mm [iirc] hole. Yes. On the rear of block. I was able to removed it with a breaker bar. > if it's closed deck, you should be able to figure out which are the > coolant holes. if not, sell that block to a racer and buy a used jdm [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > parts houses do too. it's best to have one so you torque the bolt > correctly on reassembly. My dealer doesn't carry one. I just now bought one off ebay for $40. What would be the correct torque setting for the crankshaft pulley bolt, or do you just use a breaker bar and put it on as tight as possible? >> <snip> >>> I've got everything apart and I have ordered head, intake, and exhaust [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Should I also wash out the two open combustion chambers? I had stuffed them > with paper towels to catch debris when I cleaned the surface. head? yes. just turn the cam if you want to close stuff up. hose out the ports of the open valves. cylinders? yes. but you're limited in options here. wipe the cylinder walls as clean as you can with paper towels, bring those two pistons up and do the other two, repeat. each time the cylinders go down, there should be dirt left at the "high water mark". keep wiping and turning until that's all gone. maybe use a little oil as flush after the first couple of times to make more of this debris stick the walls. >> if you ever wind up doing this job again, and you didn't this time, use >> the thick glass block as backing for the wet & dry. it ensures the high [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > I see 3 holes on the front and 3 on the back. I guess they are the coolant > holes. yes! and you have a closed deck! if you had an open deck, you'd see this: http://www.theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone/cylinder_chamfer.jpg > if you unscrew the drain plug, >> the debris and water will flood out there. drain plug is either on the >> front or rear of the block. rear i think for you. 17mm or 19mm head. >> 22mm [iirc] hole. > > Yes. On the rear of block. I was able to removed it with a breaker bar. good. >> if it's closed deck, you should be able to figure out which are the >> coolant holes. if not, sell that block to a racer and buy a used jdm [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > bar and put it on as tight > as possible? 87ft.lbs iirc. > >>> Which holes in the engine block do I use to rinse out the coolant? > >> is this closed or open deck? if it's open deck, just hose out the water [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >> if it's closed deck, you should be able to figure out which are the > >> coolant holes. Are all six of these odd shaped holes for coolant, or is it possible that they are for oil? I poured a little water down them, and I didn't see anything come out of the open drain. Do you have a link to a closed block? Thanks >>>>> Which holes in the engine block do I use to rinse out the coolant? >>>> is this closed or open deck? if it's open deck, just hose out the [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Are all six of these odd shaped holes for coolant, or is it possible that > they are for oil? coolant holes are in the snug of the cylinder liners. > I poured a little water down them, and I didn't see anything come out of the > open drain. > Do you have a link to a closed block? not offhand. it's not as much of an issue if the deck's not open because you don't get as much debris in there anyway, but try a gentle hose - that'll do the trick. the oil holes are the ones on the corners and in the middle. > Thanks > >>>>> Which holes in the engine block do I use to rinse out the coolant? > >>>> is this closed or open deck? if it's open deck, just hose out the [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > hose - that'll do the trick. the oil holes are the ones on the corners > and in the middle. I must have an open deck. I mistakenly poured the water down the oil holes, so I drained all the oil. It needs changing anyway. After pouring water in the space around the cylinder liners it drained OK from the drain plug. I used the 1/4" plate glass lap technique on the deck and the head, just to make sure things were "planer". In doing the deck, I noticed that cylinder liners were flush with the deck on the passenger side, and slightly lower than the deck on the driver's side. I was able to improve upon this by concentrating the lapping process on the one side . I guess these cylinder liners could have been a breach. The stuff that I originally removed from the top of the cylinder liners was very difficult to get off. Everything is smooth now, and hopefully will be more receptive to the new gasket. >>>>>>> Which holes in the engine block do I use to rinse out the coolant? >>>>>> is this closed or open deck? if it's open deck, just hose out the [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > I must have an open deck. I mistakenly poured the water down the oil holes, > so I drained all the oil. It needs changing anyway. oh well! > After pouring water in the space around the cylinder liners it drained OK > from the drain plug. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > cylinder liners were flush with the deck on the passenger side, and slightly > lower than the deck on the driver's side. well spotted! a skimmed head wouldn't have helped you there. make sure you do the material on the outer edge of the block - there is supposed to be a tiny degree of protrusion of the steel liner from the aluminum to make full compression. you can lap a /tiny/ little extra from those outer edges to replicate that. > I was able to improve upon this by > concentrating the lapping process on the one side . I guess these cylinder > liners could have been a breach. it could have indeed. while you're in there, do an "idiot test" and just check the liner casting is not lose in any way. it shouldn't have shifted, but if it did, it would be a shame to discover it later. > The stuff that I originally removed from > the top of the cylinder liners was very difficult to get off. Everything is > smooth now, and hopefully will be more receptive to the new gasket. good. remember, cleanliness is absolutely freakin' essential! even microscopic abrasive grit ruins engines real fast. i learned this the hard way when i was a youth - it wasn't until i learned about failure analysis stuff later that i realized what i'd been doing wrong. seriously, i'd previously been lucky to get 10k out of any engine i'd had the head off and "cleaned" with abrasives. > > I used the 1/4" plate glass lap technique on the deck and the head, just to > > make sure things were "planer". In doing the deck, I noticed that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to make full compression. you can lap a /tiny/ little extra from those > outer edges to replicate that. In looking at the new head gasket I could see the slight indentation intended for the portruding steel liner. I used a smaller piece of glass and spent considerable time lapping the perimeter in an attempt to make the steel liner portrude. Not sure if I was successful or not. Protrusion is not perceptable, but on some level I guess it is portruding a "/tiny/ little extra". I figure that some cylinder liners were recessed when I originally took the head off, and now they are not. That has to be an improvement. > > I was able to improve upon this by > > concentrating the lapping process on the one side . I guess these cylinder [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > just check the liner casting is not lose in any way. it shouldn't have > shifted, but if it did, it would be a shame to discover it later. Everything seems secure. > > The stuff that I originally removed from > > the top of the cylinder liners was very difficult to get off. Everything is > > smooth now, and hopefully will be more receptive to the new gasket. > good. remember, cleanliness is absolutely freakin' essential! even > microscopic abrasive grit ruins engines real fast. i learned this the > hard way when i was a youth - it wasn't until i learned about failure > analysis stuff later that i realized what i'd been doing wrong. > seriously, i'd previously been lucky to get 10k out of any engine i'd > had the head off and "cleaned" with abrasives. I lapped the head while positioning the surface vertical, so nothing would drain into the valves. Soap and water cleanup + WD40. And I turned the cylinders about 10 revolutions wiping each cylinder in between. I'm pretty close to closing it up. Some questions regarding belt tensions- Timing Belt - I never was able to loosen the "tension nut" for the timing belt. I found that with some effort while rotating the camshaft pulley I was able to remove the timing belt from the camshaft pulley by sliding it sideways. So I put it back on the same way, without adjusting the "tension nut". Does the "tension nut" have to be loosened and tightened to automatically adjust the belt tension? Alternator & Power Steering Belts - How tight should these be? Is there a "rule of thumb" for belt deflection? Thanks again, Gary >>> I used the 1/4" plate glass lap technique on the deck and the head, just > to [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I originally took the > head off, and now they are not. That has to be an improvement. better than most rebuild shops i'll bet! >>> I was able to improve upon this by >>> concentrating the lapping process on the one side . I guess these [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > "tension nut" have to be loosened and tightened to automatically adjust the > belt tension? yes, it's spring loaded. while you have everything off, you should be able to get at it easily and loosen it. take it off, clean it up and replace if the bearing's not butter smooth. on replacement, you should be able to figure out the deal on tightening it. basically, put everything back together with the lower covers, pulley wheel, etc, but with the tensioner bolt grommet cover off. the [14mm?] socket and a long handled ratchet fit in the space just fine if the power steering pump's moved out of the way [don't disconnect hoses, just unbolt the mountings and lift the whole thing to the side], then go through the tensioning process*. when done, tighten the bolt, rotate the crank three times, then tension again. * rotate the crank counter clockwise so the cam rotates three teeth. that has the drive side of the belt under maximum cam load. then, the spring that loads the tensioner has exactly the correct adjustment, provided the tensioner pulley is free to slide - that's why it's vital to take it off and clean it up and make sure it'll work properly. make sure the bolt's not too loose on the tensioner before you tighten it. if it is, it can over-tension the belt because the pulley was not sitting square on initial tension, but tightening the bolt squares it too far. [check a third time to make sure there's no slack on the non-drive side, but that it's also not too tight.] > Alternator & Power Steering Belts - How tight should these be? Is there a > "rule of thumb" for belt deflection? yes. i can't recall what the specs are, but they're supposed to deflect within a certain amount [10mm?] when loaded - usually by spring balance. i use a cheapo fishing scale from woolmort - gives you the load near enough, and just measure the deflection from there. or just thumb it. they'll squeal if loose... > Thanks again, > > Gary > [check a third time to make sure there's no slack on the non-drive side, > but that it's also not too tight.] I was too far along to recheck the timing belt. The power steering hoses and side engine motor mount are in the way now. It took some effort to to put the belt on so I don't think there's a slack problem on the non-drive side. Simply not enough "backup" room to get my wrench on that adjuster nut. My tools are limited. "Next time" I will be more prepared. > > Alternator & Power Steering Belts - How tight should these be? Is there a > > "rule of thumb" for belt deflection? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > enough, and just measure the deflection from there. or just thumb it. > they'll squeal if loose... There is a short squeal upon startup only. Not sure which belt. Well, I started everything up and for the last three days it really has been running great! The motor seems to be much "tighter" now, and it takes less foot pressure on the gas pedal to generate the same RPM's. No bubbles in the coolant reservoir! I have been keeping my eye on the coolant level and occasionally turning on the heater to purge the system. I added about 1.6 gallons before there were any leaks. It runs like it's new. But today, after 3 flawless days, I had my first coolant leak. In the morning, I added a little coolant to the reservoir as part of the ongoing purging process. I really don't think there were any leaks up until this point, and that this was the most coolant that the system had in it so far. My wife drove the car to work (8 miles), and said that there was noticeable leaks under the car after she stopped. The same thing happened, after she came home. I checked to see where the leak was coming from, and the leak is coming from the joint where the "steel coolant pipe" enters under the thermostat housing. The car is now sequestered, and will not move until fixed. At no time did the temp gauge go up, and both fans have been operating as expected. I had installed the head and intake manifold as one unit. I had difficulty making the connection to the "steel coolant pipe" that connects under the thermostat housing. I replaced the O-ring on the "steel coolant pipe" with the one that I ordered [91314-PH7-003 (31.2 x 4.1)]. Either I ordered the wrong one, or the O-ring didn't seat properly. It was pretty hard to sleeve the "steel coolant pipe" into the connection while holding the head and intake manifold stable, so it's quite possible that I didn't get a good seal. I'm thinking that the leak showed up after three days because I had just purged the system to the point that there was no air to compress, and the O-ring connection was the weak point. I hope that is the case. What is the best way to access this joint so I can replace or reseat this O-ring? Also, did I use the correct O-ring? I can't seem to find the diagram on www.slhonda.com that I ordered it from. Thanks. It's unbelievable how great this engine sounds! Gary >> [check a third time to make sure there's no slack on the non-drive side, >> but that it's also not too tight.] [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > not enough > "backup" room to get my wrench on that adjuster nut. My tools are limited. you don't need room or special tools - it's accessed with everything in place. it's only taking it off and cleaning everything up that requires large scale removal. > "Next > time" I will be more prepared. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > There is a short squeal upon startup only. Not sure which belt. check the belt deflections - one will be obviously loose. > Well, I started everything up and for the last three days it really has been > running great! The motor [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > there was no air to compress, and the O-ring connection was the weak point. > I hope that is the case. most likely. you'll have to take stuff off to get at it again, but do the ring again, clean everything, then reassemble with a little soap. if not lubed, sometimes o-rings bind and cut on assembly. > What is the best way to access this joint so I can replace or reseat this > O-ring? Also, did I use the > correct O-ring? I can't seem to find the diagram on www.slhonda.com that I > ordered it from. can't you just remove the thermostat housing again? parts are in the section called "water pump-sensor". > Thanks. It's unbelievable how great this engine sounds! don't forget to change that oil again a couple of hundred miles! > Gary > >> [check a third time to make sure there's no slack on the non-drive side, > >> but that it's also not too tight.] [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > the ring again, clean everything, then reassemble with a little soap. > if not lubed, sometimes o-rings bind and cut on assembly. OK. It was a tough fit. Wouldn't surprise me if the end of the pipe was cracked. > > What is the best way to access this joint so I can replace or reseat this > > O-ring? Also, did I use the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > can't you just remove the thermostat housing again? parts are in the > section called "water pump-sensor". Actually, I never removed the thermostat assembly from the intake manifold. I don't think the Accord Shop Manual called for it. It was pretty awkward. Next time, I would remove the thermostat assembly. Maybe that is why the manual suggests removing and installing the intake manifold independant of the head on the 1994 models. > > Thanks. It's unbelievable how great this engine sounds! > > don't forget to change that oil again a couple of hundred miles! Will do. You still have scars from the head sanding jobs that you did in your youth! > > Gary > > > I had installed the head and intake manifold as one unit. I had > difficulty [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > the ring again, clean everything, then reassemble with a little soap. > > if not lubed, sometimes o-rings bind and cut on assembly. The o-ring had a big gash in it because of the way I made the connection. I should have removed the thermostat case from the intake manifold when I removed the head/intake manifold. It would have made things way easier. Everything is now fixed and appears to be in working order. Thanks for all your help! >>>> I had installed the head and intake manifold as one unit. I had >> difficulty [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Thanks for all your help! you're welcome! glad it worked. if you have any more problems, post a fresh thread because i'm going to stop winding back to this one now. atb >> > So far so good. Of course, I trashed the edges of my >> > crankshaft pulley >> > trying to remove it. I picked up one in a >> > junkyard for $35. > My dealer doesn't carry [the pulley tool]. I just now > bought one off ebay for $40. What > would be the correct > torque setting for the crankshaft pulley bolt, The free online (Chilton's/Haynes/part factory service) manual for your Accord at www.Autozone.com states it's 181 ft-lbs. For the crankshaft pulley bolt trivia fans, this Accord has a 16 mm nominal diameter bolt. I am curious: What did you do to destroy the crankshaft pulley? Good updates, Gary. > >> > So far so good. Of course, I trashed the edges of my > >> > crankshaft pulley [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I am curious: What did you do to destroy the crankshaft > pulley? Since a pulley holder was not readily available, I figured I would try to insure myself a place in the "Honda Crankshaft Pulley Hall of Fame" by rigging something that would serve the same purpose. See my heroes at http://www.cadvision.com/blanchas/54pontiac/honda.html Unfortunately, there are no holes on the 1994 model, so I had to try a differant approach. I attached 3 c-clamps on the pulley next to each other about 1" in from the outside perimeter. I secured each c-clamp as tight as possible, and tried to made sure the first pulley somehow engaged against something that was iron. I figured 3 clamps tightly attached would create enough surface area to hold the pulley from moving. Then I removed the tire, took a 1/2" breaker bar with a 20" extension and secure the socket to the crankshaft bolt. I rested the flex point on some stacked bricks, sleeved the handle with a 10 foot piece of PVC and pulled down. I needed to start past vertical to make it work, as it took every bit of a 100 degree swing. Unfortunately, the c-clamps slipped in the initial attempts, and I lost some of the outside edge of the pulley. When I picked up a new one at the junkyard I watched the man in the yard remove one with air tools. He had his hands full too. Finally, he took two heavy hammers and peened the head of the bolt as hard as he could to free up the corrosion that was holding it in place. After trying this about 4 times, he finally was able to remove the bolt. I might have had better luck if I peened the head of the bolt before I tried to remove it. But then my car isn't in a junkyard.........yet. > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >> I am curious: What did you do to destroy the crankshaft >> pulley? snip > Unfortunately, the c-clamps slipped in the initial > attempts, and I lost some > of the outside edge of the pulley. That's a shame. FWIW after the fact, any time you hit a barrier like this, maybe ask here. The following two sites pretty much cover everything on the net on this subject: http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/cranktool/index.html and http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id6.html Are you going to buy the parts online, OEM, at, for example, www.slhonda.com ? An update on how the job goes is welcome. One thing I will say about Jim's comments here (not to appease him, heaven forbid; but just to be honest) is that, if he says a do-it-yourselfer can change a head gasket, then I believe him. 'Cause he's fierce about jobs he really thinks an amateur should not try. I do stand by my caveat on machining the mating surfaces, though (usually if any surface, just the head?). There's just too much chatter on that everywhere, even for Hondas, for me to believe it's not a gamble. But maybe it's a gamble you'll win. :-) I also think you really ought to have the coolant system pressurized and its chemistry, checked to confirm this gasket leak, since these tests are not too expensive. Or you could probably do the pressure check yourself, with some reading and a few tools. I defer to the head gasket pros on your questions. Good luck. > Thanks to all "point/counterpoint" advice given in this > thread. It has been [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > gasket(s) to be > visibly apparent when I remove the head or other gaskets? > Are you going to buy the parts online, OEM, at, for example, > www.slhonda.com ? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > But maybe it's a gamble you'll win. :-) 1. it's only a gamble if you pay the machinist /before/ you take the head off. otherwise you inspect and there's no gambling involved. fud otoh is a whole different ballgame. 2. looking at this logically, it makes absolutely no sense to routinely machine a head but not a block. apart from the actual liner, the block mating surfaces on the honda are the same material as the head and work in the same environment. a "clean" surface one side of the gasket but not the other? anyone recommending machining without addressing this logical disconnect has not given any thought about what they're doing. seriously, the #1 reason heads get machined is to clean them. it's a pita to do manually, but hey, from a shop's viewpoint, if it's not your car and you don't want to spend the time and you can pass on the cost... > I also think you really ought to have the coolant system > pressurized and its chemistry, checked to confirm this [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >> gasket(s) to be >> visibly apparent when I remove the head or other gaskets? > Are you going to buy the parts online, OEM, at, for example, > www.slhonda.com ? I will check it out. > An update on how the job goes is welcome. One thing I will > say about Jim's comments here (not to appease him, heaven [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > But maybe it's a gamble you'll win. :-) Hope springs eternal! I will definitely put a straight edge on the head and block and check things out with the feeler gauges. > I also think you really ought to have the coolant system > pressurized and its chemistry, checked to confirm this > gasket leak, since these tests are not too expensive. Or you > could probably do the pressure check yourself, with some > reading and a few tools. Maybe I can get a hold of one of those pressure testers. When I remembered about the "frozen spark plug", things started to make sense. I will do a minimal investment approach. > I defer to the head gasket pros on your questions. > > Good luck. Thanks for your input. It was very helpful. Gary > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote > Maybe I can get a hold of one of those pressure testers. > When I > remembered about the "frozen spark plug", things started > to make sense. > I will do a minimal investment approach. I forgot to add that of course you are seeing the operation of your car up close, and experiencing its woes and studying its symptoms daily. Maybe if I had all the input you have, I would feel it was a slam dunk it was the head gasket (or possibly, though admittely remotely, another cooling breach at the head/block), so a pressure test would not be necessary. Your mention of the frozen spark plug is interesting. Maybe it's nothing, but FWIW my friend with the 99 Civic who blew a head gasket a few months ago also had one spark plug frozen. It does make sense that this might happen on occasion (maybe even often) with a cooling system/engine breach, either due to warpage of engine parts or the coolant leaking into the cylinders and getting into the plug's threads, say. |
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