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Car Forum / Honda Cars / August 2006Bad Service Experience Today
A week ago, I made an 8:00 A.M. appointment at our local Honda dealer to bring our '03 Accord in for the 45,000 mile service. When I got there this morning, they said it would be two to two and one-half hours I didn't want the transmission done (wasn't due) so it was LOF, some inspections, change the cabin filter and rotate the tires. Seemed like way too long, but I was willing to wait. My wife and I went to breakfast. When we returned, we went directly to the waiting room. Then about 10:00 A.M. I took a walk out to the parking lot to see if the car was there. It was, and it didn't look like they had done anything to it. I asked the receptionist/cashier what the status of the car was. She went to the service advisor, and returned with the info that it would be at least another hour. By this time I was getting a little upset, so I said to the receptionist, "I take it they haven't started yet?" She said, "That's right." Now we are 2 hours and 15-minutes into the game. At that point I told her we would just take the car elsewhere. However, unknown to me, and apparently to her, they actually had done some of the work. Everything except rotating the tires. I figured, fine, we can wait for them to rotate the tires. However at about that time, the service advisor came storming out of his little office, ripped the key off the ID tag, and handed it to me. The girl said you're good to go! I said, "But, I haven't paid you yet!" She said, "It was our mistake. There is no charge." So we left without paying or getting any kind of report on what they actually did. I suppose they thought that would appease an angry customer, but it just made me feel guilty. Did I/they handle this wrong? I am still bummed out about the whole experience. I have never had a bad experience at this dealer, and they have done all the service on this car. Dick Given all the miscommunications, I would be concerned about whether they actually did the work or not. Can you tell whether they rotated the tires? Do you have any experience with engine oil, so you could check what's on the dipstick and see if it looks new? If it appears they did the work, then I personally would go back and insist on paying for it. I am not wealthy but nor am I poor, either. I know how hard those guys (and now sometimes gals) work; how customers (not necessarily you) often breathe down their necks; how the service manager and dealer manager can make their lives living hells. As for the scheduling and timing: I'd cut any car shop at least as much slack as I cut the doctors and dentists I've seen in my life. Scheduling for all is very similar and so very irregular. May I suggest next time dropping the car off for at least a half-day? Or, better, ask the shop what they suggest so you do not do any waiting per se. >A week ago, I made an 8:00 A.M. appointment at our local >Honda dealer [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > Dick I know they didn't rotate the tires. The service writer said so when he "handed" me the key. He also said they changed the cabin filter. I will take a look at the oil. Don't know if I can see the filter on a V-6. You're probably right. To avoid bad feelings on the next time I need service, I probably need to pay them for what they did (whatever it was.) There was a new next due sticker on the windshield, so I assume they at least did an LOF. I feel really bad about the whole thing. Dick >Given all the miscommunications, I would be concerned about >whether they actually did the work or not. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >half-day? Or, better, ask the shop what they suggest so you >do not do any waiting per se. They did not rotate the tires? Not cool. In that case, unless you chewed them out with venom and demanded the service for free or something, I don't quite follow why you feel bad. Your time is valuable, too, after all. I wasn't there, so you can better gage whether to try to get them to take payment for the apparent oil change and cabin filter. >I know they didn't rotate the tires. The service writer >said so when [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >>you >>do not do any waiting per se. Dick, the way you describe the events, it sounds like the service advisor needs to switch to defaffeinated coffee. I'd say HE was the one out of line. If indeed the things you wrote that were said were the ONLY things said, then it sounds as if he came out of nowhere and blew up at you. Now, if you had SCREAMED at them for holding onto the car for 2h 15m for not having gotten started, then maybe yes you have a right to feel guilty. But you didn't write it that way, so.... I can appreciate how you feel, though. I would want to offer them at least something, and let them know you, in effect, meant no harm. I do all of my own service, but if there were something I needed from a dealer or other commercial concern, I would let them have the car for at least four hours. I used to work for one of these places, and I know how scheduling can get away from even the good service managers. If there was work done on the vehicle, you are entitled to a printed statement of what it was, whether they decide to charge you for it or not. Ask for it. From your description of what happened, there was something going on with the service advisor that you are not telling us about, or that you don't know about. Perhaps the receptionist gave him an incorrect account of how you were acting in the waiting room. It doesn't sound like acceptable behavior though. People who work in this business should explain delays in a timely manner, and should do every thing they can to keep customers aware of what is going on, even if it is just a simple service. Earle > A week ago, I made an 8:00 A.M. appointment at our local Honda dealer > to bring our '03 Accord in for the 45,000 mile service. When I got [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Dick I think the whole thing amounted to poor communication. When I inquired about the car, and was told that "they hadn't started on it yet," that's when I said OK, I want the car. I'll take it to another dealer. If I had known that most of the work was already done, and only the tire rotation remained, I would have gone back to watching TV. But, thinking they hadn't done anything, I wanted my car back. It was really the receptionist/cashier that threw the wrench into things by misleading me about the actual status. I assume that when she later went out to the service writer, she just told them "the customer is tired of waiting, and wants his car back." It was not until the service writer gave me the keys that he revealed that they had finished everything except the tire rotation. None of this would have happened if I hadn't inquired about the status of the car after waiting over two hours. I still don't know what the cashier meant when she said it was their mistake. Having been in manufacturing management for many years, I know all about scheduling. When a car is scheduled for routine service, the dealer knows within a few minutes how long it will take to do it. They didn't just start doing this. And Honda is not exactly Joe's Garage. They also know how many bays they have, and how many mechanics are scheduled to work. When I am given an appointment for when the shop opens, and I want only routine service, there is no excuse for taking over three hours. None. If they can't schedule any better than that, they better go back to school. Even my doctors take me within 15 minutes from when I arrive. And they have a terrible reputation for scheduling. Having a good friend who was a service manager for a major dealership in town, I know the game they play. They schedule vehicles in lumps of morning and afternoon. The appointment times they give you are really meaningless. Then they stack them up in the lot, and start assigning them to the various work stations at their convenience to have a steady flow of work to each mechanic. Instead of using sophisticated scheduling tools, which are certainly available, they take the easy way out, and leave the customer hanging. Obviously, if you are having repairs done, that's a different ballgame. To be fair, I know at least one Honda dealer that does know how to do it. But he's 80 miles away. Dick >I do all of my own service, but if there were something I needed from a >dealer or other commercial concern, I would let them have the car for at [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Earle > Having been in manufacturing management for many years, I know all > about scheduling. When a car is scheduled for routine service, the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > me within 15 minutes from when I arrive. And they have a terrible > reputation for scheduling. Having been a service manager of a dealership, and then a store manager for a national chain, I can offer this insight of it. Services like oil changes and tire rotations are done as "lost leaders" to get your car in the door, get it in the air, and get the wheels off of it. The purpose is to check the undercar suspension, tires, exhaust, and brakes in hopes of selling you a service or parts they can make money on. There is almost no money made on oil changes, most technicians make 8 to 10 percent of the total cost, so there is incentive to sell you something else, they are, after all, there to make money. Scheduling an oil change and a tire rotation is easy, and you're right, it's cut and dried as to the time it takes, but when something additional is found, requiring more time and additional service, and maybe the lift they needed to do your tire rotation, then everything is put off, and delayed. There is no way to schedule the unknown, not without a crystal ball. Example, you may find you need an alignment, and they only have one alignment machine. That changes everything. Or, your car might require a drive-on type lift instead of a swing arm type, and they only have so many of them. No way to schedule that. Your assertion of poor communication is right on the head. This in my opinion is the single biggest problem in car repair related customer complaints. The customer generally has an unrealistic idea of what's to be done and how long it should take to do it, based on little or no experience with auto service, and the service / repair center seldom keeps the customer in the "loop", which would certainly make things run smoother, and prevent an experience like yours from occuring again. My advice would be to go back, insist on speaking with the very manager who was upset, and with a smile, get all the cards on the table and explain your position and what your side of it is, leave the cashier out of it completely. You may just get back on the right foot, and feel better about your dealership, or, you might see their true colors. Either way, it'll be worth it. Spdloader > Your assertion of poor communication is right on the > head. This in my opinion is the single biggest problem in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to do it, based on little or no experience with auto > service, Unfortunately it is also my impression that many "upper class" (sic) folks think auto technicians deserve little more respect than slaves. They didn't graduate college (usually); they get their hands dirty; they work a low paying job (relatively). The technician should be at the beck and call of "better educated" customers. Fact is, the automotive technician has skills that take some serious time and study (even if it's the school of hard knocks, which can be a lot tougher than the school for which mum and dad paid so Jr. could get a college degree) to acquire. Most people are not electro-mechanically passionate and do not have the patience or mental ability to perform difficult problem solving. I would not blame auto technicians if they did exactly what many doctors, lawyers and other so-called "professionals" do: Take the customer for as much as possible. I resent the OP's contention that doctors among others don't push their customers (screw the word "patient") around. They treat their customers far worse on average than any auto shop. They are far less willing to own up to their wretched and frequent mistakes or their ignorance. > and the service / repair center seldom keeps the customer > in the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > table and explain your position and what your side of it > is, leave the cashier out of it completely. What are the chances an MD would not charge for a treatment that was incomplete? A few months ago the NY Times reported on how on average, MDs prescribed only 60% of the standard of care for various common maladies, serious and minor. White collar care for clients vs. blue collar care: The difference is a joke. You can take this medical/mechanical analogy a bit further. You'd better learn to take care of your own stuff, as much as possible, if you want it to last. Don't expect the doctor/mechanic to do everything for you. My wife the nurse tells me that the hospital is full of people who never took care of themselves properly, and now they expect the doctors to fix everything. Earle > > Your assertion of poor communication is right on the > > head. This in my opinion is the single biggest problem in [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > White collar care for clients vs. blue collar care: The > difference is a joke. My wife "the nurse" tells me the same thing too. She starts off with "you're too fat" though. Then tells me about the people in the hospital where she works. Spdloader At least none of my taxes nor insurance payments go to subsidize people who do not take care of their cars and so need major repairs. Unlike when they don't take care of their health (physical and mental). My taxes pay for their Medicaid and/or their getting every darn procedure under the sun, paid for, for now, by their insurer, who raises rates on all of us, and encourages docs to prescribe more and more baloney treatments. > My wife "the nurse" tells me the same thing too. > She starts off with "you're too fat" though. > Then tells me about the people in the hospital where she > works. > > Spdloader >You can take this medical/mechanical analogy a bit further. You'd better >learn to take care of your own stuff, as much as possible, if you want it to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Earle I used to always do my own work on cars. I even rebuilt a couple of engines. And I was a flight engineer in the Air Force, so I really do understand things mechanical. However, now that I am no longer young, I have to depend upon others to do the work. Anyway, with all the computers in cars today, it is beyond the backyard mechanic to do much other than change the oil and filter. Even then you have to find a way to dispose of it. Then you also have the problem if you do your own work on a car still in warranty that you may have a hassle if something breaks. Things are much different today. Dick > Anyway, with all the > computers in cars today, it is beyond the backyard mechanic to do much > other than change the oil and filter. IMO this chestnut is an urban legend. I've been doing the majority of the work on our cars for many years and continue to do so on the most modern of them. I also help out quite a few friends with their routine needs. Much is still completely mechanical such as brakes, suspension, drivelines, etc. I have added a hand-held code reader to my tool box to find things like bad oxygen sensors. In some ways it is easier to diagnose a modern car thanks to the onboard diagnostics than it is to diagnose some older cars. Every time I try to get our '67 Jag weekend car running exactly right it is a nightmare of manual adjustments with the three carbs, etc. Give me a modern fuel injected engine with diagnostics anytime! John <snip> > diagnose some older cars. Every time I try to get our '67 Jag weekend > car running exactly right it is a nightmare of manual adjustments with > the three carbs, etc. Give me a modern fuel injected engine with > diagnostics anytime! A '67 Jag? You have my complete sympathy! I owned a '69 Porsche 911T, the last of the 6 cyl models with carbs (triple Weber). I was never really good at getting them just right, although I did virtually everything else on the car. Well done. Exactly my thinking. Too many are conditioned to letting others fix all their messes. It seems it's a very unskilled society in which we live. > You can take this medical/mechanical analogy a bit > further. You'd better [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] >> White collar care for clients vs. blue collar care: The >> difference is a joke. . > Services like oil changes and tire rotations are done as "lost leaders" > to get your [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > total cost, so there is incentive to > sell you something else, they are, after all, there to make money. isn't the only reason a business offers services like oil changes, and warrenty services to keep you as a repeat customer (to buy your next car in this case)? The service manager needs to realize that he represents the dealership. Now if thats the only bad experience you have ever had or ever heard of, i'd go back. If this is a repeat of other experiences you have had with them or have heard of, I would just chose a different dealership. After all they only want to sell you cars, but you deserve to be treated right! >. >> Services like oil changes and tire rotations are done as "lost leaders" [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >chose a different dealership. After all they only want to sell you >cars, but you deserve to be treated right! I did have a good conversation with the Service Manager (who didn't know anything about the incident.) He scheduled me for another appointment to finish the job, and wants me to deal directly with him. Sounds like this will end up well for both sides. Dick Yeah, but if you already know "the game they play", why don't you give them at least four hours, as I suggested? Then when you show up at the end of the four hours, and it still isn't done, you have a real excuse to blow up at them? :^) Earle > I think the whole thing amounted to poor communication. When I > inquired about the car, and was told that "they hadn't started on it [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > > >Earle >Yeah, but if you already know "the game they play", why don't you give them >at least four hours, as I suggested? Then when you show up at the end of >the four hours, and it still isn't done, you have a real excuse to blow up >at them? :^) > >Earle I suppose that could be done, but what am I supposed to do for four hours? Walk around the block? Watch TV in the waiting room? My wife could always follow me in our other car, but it's a 40 mile round trip to the dealer. With the price of gas today, I would rather the dealer accommodate me than the other way around. Dick > I suppose that could be done, but what am I supposed to do for four > hours? Walk around the block? Watch TV in the waiting room? My wife [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Dick If any shop every figures out how to manage the schedule more accurately and thus to make real appointments they will have a big customer satisfaction advantage. So far I have yet to find one which does. John >> I suppose that could be done, but what am I supposed to do for four >> hours? Walk around the block? Watch TV in the waiting room? My wife [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >John There is a large Honda dealership in Phoenix Arizona. You can take your car in for routine service without an appointment, and your car will be in work within 30 minutes. Not only that, but the service shop has huge, floor to ceiling windows between the waiting area and the shop hoists. You can sit there in comfortable chairs and couches watching your car being worked on only a few feet away. There is never any question as to whether or not your car is actually being worked on, or just waiting in que. They definitely know how to do it. I just wish it wasn't so darn far away, although I have made the trip twice. Dick > Having been in manufacturing management for many years, I know all > about scheduling. Unfortunately the way most dealer's manage their shops assume that the customer will drop the car off for the day. Thus most of the time ends up being queing time, not working time. Generally they do not actually make a detailed appointment book like you expect at a dentist's office. The design is for cars and techs to show up in the AM, then someone assigns cars to techs by some mysterious process and hopefully things start getting done. The shop considers itself doing well if at the end of the day all of the cars they planned to work on actually get done. Personally I find this frustrating as a customer since our dealer is over a 1 hour round trip away and thus I prefer to wait for the vehicle. Also, you must realize that the cashier person you talked to is likely no well paid and perhaps only minimally trained. John > Unfortunately the way most dealer's manage their shops assume that the > customer will drop the car off for the day. Thus most of the time ends up > being queing time, not working time. Actually, they hope customers will drop 'em off, but never assume. > Generally they do not actually make a detailed appointment book like you > expect at a dentist's office. The design is for cars and techs to show up > in the AM, then someone assigns cars to techs by some mysterious process > and hopefully things start getting done. The shop considers itself doing > well if at the end of the day all of the cars they planned to work on > actually get done. Not true. I will agree that it seems that way to customers, but, not true. Jobs are assigned to techs by abilities, speed, and the order of seniority. There may be 12 techs in a shop, but maybe only one transmission tech, one or two alignment techs, one that specializes in electrical, then you'll have a bunch of oil changers and trainees. > Personally I find this frustrating as a customer since our dealer is over > a 1 hour round trip away and thus I prefer to wait for the vehicle. As well you should, with that kind of drive. > Also, you must realize that the cashier person you talked to is likely no > well paid and perhaps only minimally trained. Very likely. Spdloader > She said, "It was our > mistake. There is no charge." Maybe the mistake was not having the car ready at the time it was promised. Maybe Service has to eat those mistakes and that's why the guy was angry. You might as well make an appointment for the tire rotation to complete the service, get the 45K service documentation and pay them in full. If they say the oil change was a freebie say thanks. Odds are pretty good that your problem with Service wasn't the biggest thing at the Service desk that day. >> She said, "It was our >> mistake. There is no charge." [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >that your problem with Service wasn't the biggest thing at the Service >desk that day. That's what I am going to do. This is the only dealer within 80 miles, and I need to have a good relationship with them. Dick >>> She said, "It was our >>> mistake. There is no charge." [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Dick Here's the end of the story, as Paul Harvey would say. We took the Accord back to the dealer this morning. I met with the service manager as he asked me to. It took about an hour to finish the 45,000 miles service. He still wouldn't charge me for any of the work that was done. I really tried to pay him, but I guess he just wants to make sure I remain a customer. Still feeling a little guilty, but am very happy with how things worked out. Dick ......and they lived happily ever after. Spdloader > Here's the end of the story, as Paul Harvey would say. We took the > Accord back to the dealer this morning. I met with the service [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > make sure I remain a customer. Still feeling a little guilty, but am > very happy with how things worked out. Dick, I'm curious: did you buy the car at that dealership? >> Here's the end of the story, as Paul Harvey would say. We took the >> Accord back to the dealer this morning. I met with the service [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Dick, I'm curious: did you buy the car at that dealership? No, but I bought the one just prior to this one there. When It came time to buy this one, they just weren't willing to get the price down. I bought it elsewhere for $1,500 less, which was significant. The trade-in offer was exactly the same at both dealers, so the $1,500 was real savings. This was an EX V-6 with Navigation. I know that one can expect to get better treament if you buy the car where you are getting service, but I did buy the one before, and except for a couple of LOF's, this dealer has done all the service on the '03 since it was new. Dick > Here's the end of the story, as Paul Harvey would say. We took the > Accord back to the dealer this morning. I met with the service [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Dick You have nothing to feel guilty about. You were honest and communicated clearly and the dealer elected to go the extra mile for you. Hopefully they have earned your continued business and that of your friends and associates. John |
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