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Car Forum / Honda Cars / August 2006Civic Transmission shot at 44K: Good Ending!!!
Thank you all for your advice. I have some VERY GOOD NEWS to share Honda has agreed to replace my transmission free of charge! I called "Honda of America" like Duckbill suggested (thank you Duckbill!), I got through to a real person on the first ring (very impressive). This gentelman was great, very empathetic. He said that I had a shot at this. He asked me what did I want Honda to do about this, and I said "I want Honda to live up to its tradition of reliability and service and extend my guarantee to 60,000 miles". I was not confrontational or aggresive, just told him that I was very dissapointed and heartbroken that see that a Honda's transmission can blow at 44K miles, that this was my 3rd Honda in years (1 totalled, 1 stolen - probably for beeing a Honda-). After my last Civic was stolen I thought about buying a Ford Focus, but I stayed w Honda because I knew that it would not let me down. I expected much more from a Honda..." The guy told me that I had done the right thing, calling them first instead of going directly to the dealership. He gave me a case number (because he thought I had a case) and told me to take the car to the dealership for a diagnosis, no promises. I towed my car from the tranny shop into Honda of Kirkland yesterday, and today they called me to tell that the transmission was in fact shot, that they could not extend my guarantee as I asked them, but they will fix the transmission free of charge, (even when it was 8K out of guarantee). I was elated! Maybe it helped that I asked for more, maybe if I had asked them to fix it they would just pay 50%... In any case, I think they were fenomenal, they even gave me a free loaner while they fix my car. I belive in Honda again! I also totally agree with the postings about beeing nice and assume that people will help you out, expect the best and it might happen. Honda actually mentioned "good will" througout all this, and as it turns out these were not empty words in this case. Thank you all again for all your encouragement! > Thank you all for your advice. I have some VERY GOOD NEWS to share > Honda has agreed to replace my transmission free of charge! [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Thank you all again for all your encouragement! I have been following this and am happy you had a happy ending....I started buying Hondas in 1982 [Prelude] and am on my 4th a Fit and I love it. I will never buy anything but a Honda. This will be a good story to pass around<G> Donna > Thank you all for your advice. I have some VERY GOOD NEWS to share > Honda has agreed to replace my transmission free of charge! [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Thank you all again for all your encouragement! Wonder if they are rebuilding the tranny or replacing it with a factory rebuilt tranny. Hope it is the latter - let us know what the dealer did - replace or rebuild. They are replacing it with a factory one, it comes from Japan and they have to wait for it for a few days. > > Thank you all for your advice. I have some VERY GOOD NEWS to share > > Honda has agreed to replace my transmission free of charge! [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > rebuilt tranny. Hope it is the latter - let us know what the dealer > did - replace or rebuild. Sound like a very good ending. This Forum has a lot of good people giving good advice that keeps us mostly out of trouble. I hope you're aware you are still covered by Honda for a five year (maybe longer) 50,000 mile Emissions Warranty. Sometime dealers/ shops charge for things that are covered by it. > Wonder if they are rebuilding the tranny or replacing it with a factory > rebuilt tranny. Hope it is the latter - let us know what the dealer > did - replace or rebuild. I don't think Honda dealers ever crack these open themselves. SOP is to remove and replace with a factory new/rebuilt unit. John > I also totally agree with the postings about beeing nice and assume > that people will help you out, expect the best and it might happen. > Honda actually mentioned "good will" througout all this, and as it > turns out these were not empty words in this case. > > Thank you all again for all your encouragement! Great, I am glad it worked out. Being pleasant and *reasonably* demanding has worked for me many times over the years. Explaining a legitimate problem and asking for help often works much better than just getting angry. Well done! John > Thank you all for your advice. I have some VERY GOOD NEWS to share > Honda has agreed to replace my transmission free of charge! [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Thank you all again for all your encouragement! Contrast that with my experience with a 71 Corvette some 35 years ago when a rear wheel bearing distintegrated at 12,300 miles. The dealer refused to fix it under the warranty as did GM after I wrote to them. Their explanation was that the car was 300 miles out of warranty, so they were not responsible. Wonder if they are still the same today. I went Japanese in 1975 with a 280Z and customer service difference was something to behold for someone used to Chevy dealers. Started with Honda in 1967 with their motorcycles and went to their cars in the late 80s. Never regretted it. > Contrast that with my experience with a 71 Corvette some 35 years ago when a > rear wheel bearing distintegrated at 12,300 miles. The dealer refused to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > someone used to Chevy dealers. Started with Honda in 1967 with their > motorcycles and went to their cars in the late 80s. Never regretted it. Replace "71 Corvette" with "77 LeBaron" and "wheel bearing" with "transmission" and "GM" with "Chrysler", and "280Z" with "79 Civic" and you have my father's story combined with my story. Never again. Never again. > Contrast that with my experience with a 71 Corvette some > 35 years ago when a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > warranty, so they were not > responsible. Are you condemning them for this? Do you not see that when lines are not drawn clearly, it's easy to argue that they can keep being redrawn at whim? You argue an extension to 12,300 miles. The next guy asks for an extension to 12,400 miles, because you got an extension, etc. ISTM warranties are surely based on engineering and economics. How long can a part reasonably last? How often will a defective part come up that lasts no where near this long? What warranty incentive do I need to give customers so they buy the car? 12,000 miles is 12,000 miles. I would never criticize a manufacturer for refusing to honor a 12,000 mile warranty when the car had 12,001 miles on it. It's illogical to do so. > > Contrast that with my experience with a 71 Corvette some > > 35 years ago when a [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > when the car had 12,001 miles on it. It's illogical to do > so. Elle, Elle, Elle... There's an old saying that one "Aw sh.t" wipes out a thousand "attaboys." Any dealer worth it's salt or manufacturer will dip into the "customer-sat" bucket to promote goodwill. I did it when I did tech support for Apple and for internal/external customers in my latter years in process engineering. GM made its own bed and is now paying a lofty price for its indiscretions. Negative word-of-mouth spreads much more readily than those of kudos and any business that does not realize that will often end up in the dumper. OTOH, there is always a doofus who is never satisfied and often a decision must be made to cut the SOB loose... JT > > Contrast that with my experience with a 71 Corvette some > > 35 years ago when a [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > when the car had 12,001 miles on it. It's illogical to do > so. This was the second Corvette I owned -- which was replete with problems. Of course, I suppose you are technically right, but I think Honda see's it otherwise because it execises some commonsense and judgement. Your logic also says that there are no exceptions or compromises. That makes life easy for you then to enforce the rules because you don't have to think. Just say no! > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >> > Contrast that with my experience with a 71 Corvette [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > otherwise because it execises some commonsense and > judgement. I would not call it common sense. I would call it judgment. There are a few rational arguments for manufacturers to extend warranties, having to do with, for example (1) custom among other car manufacturers; and (2) good PR. > Your logic > also says that there are no exceptions or compromises. Your logic (in misinterpreting my statement) says that, not mine. > That makes life easy > for you then to enforce the rules because you don't have > to think. Just say > no! My point was I condemn the actions of people who make demands (not mere inquiries) outside the limits of legal contracts. They won't be my friends yada. By contrast, merely asking the manufacturer to extend the warranty, because of xyz, puts the ball in the manufacturer's court. I don't condemn anyone for merely asking when the line appears to be close. Certainly on occasion I have asked for such breaks, too. E.g. a few years ago I was very busy and forgot to pay a bill. The company charged me a fee for the lateness. That was allowed by contract. I called and asked if they might cut me a break because of my long record of reliably paying on time. They did, and rescinded the fee. I feel no guilt. I say this because I think these days there is a whiny-arsed culture in the U.S. that refuses to take responsibility for poor judgment. If one does not like the terms of a warranty contract, then do not purchase the car, etc. > > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote > >> > Contrast that with my experience with a 71 Corvette [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > to think. Just say > > no! > My point was I condemn the actions of people who make > demands (not mere inquiries) outside the limits of legal [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > reliably paying on time. They did, and rescinded the fee. I > feel no guilt. I think there are times when the line is close that it is reasonable to ask for and expect some sort of accommodation. In the case of the Civic with a blown transmission at 44k, it was well outside the warranty and I was surprised Honda replaced it. I certainly would not expect personally for them to do that, nor would I insist on it as my right. If the transmission had blown at 36,300 miles, however, I would think that while the manufacturer has the right to say no, the customer should have some reasonable expectation that some accommodation would be made -- perhaps a 50/50 split. The difference I see here was the GM culture of the 60s/70s that ran flat up against the Japanese culture of producing a quality product that they would stand behind. I recollect Honda recalling in 1970 my CB750 4 because of a problem with the chain breaking. It was a voluntary act on the part of Honda and completely unheard of in the motorcycle world and unusual in the automotive world. I had a similar experience with Datsun in the 70s with my 280z when the dealer replaced my brake pads at 15k without charge and unasked for when I experienced grabbing on one side. I rememmber him saying that I should not have experienced the problem and that Datsun stood behind their cars. As a retired military officer now working in the higher education I see every day the "don't take responsibility for my actions" culture and find it distressing. You are right in that respect. In conclusion, I apologize for any offense -- I wrongly saw you as being too inflexible. > I say this because I think these days there is a whiny-arsed > culture in the U.S. that refuses to take responsibility for > poor judgment. > > If one does not like the terms of a warranty contract, then > do not purchase the car, etc. > I think there are times when the line is close that it is > reasonable to ask [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > you as being too > inflexible. With all due respect, no apology is necessary. I was not entirely clear in my post about my view on these things. Continuing to talk through an issue is often fruitful. I think we're about on the same page. Thanks for clarifying your own view. As the owner of the Honda with the blown transmission at 44K, I was very surprised myself that they decided to replace it free of charge. Once again, in talking with Honda of America, they did not tell me that 'this things happen and you just had bad luck" Wha t they said is that "it is highly unusual for a Honda with this type of engine to have this type of problem at this mileage and we stand behind the quality of our product, whether or not this is within the guarantee time-frame". Some other factors that might have played into this outcome: 1. The car broke down and left me stranded in the middle of a mountain road >100 miles from home. I was saddled with a $400 tow truck bill. 2. The car had been meticulously maintained at the Honda dealership (including a 30K inspection with transmission fluid change), and I had all the records. 3. This was my 3rd Honda in 5 years. I agree with the postings that state that Honda had NO OBLIGATION to do this, and I wouldn't have expected this of them. But how many times we all do things even when we have no obligation, we just do them out of GOOD WILL. Honda made this very clear to me, and I accepted this as a favor. This type of actions do pay back in the long run, and Honda certainly knows this. I am sorry for the people who feel that we should stick to the strict terms of our agreements (i.e., that Honda should not have paid even if my car broke down 5 miles over the guarantee term limit), in my experience it is when you go beyond those terms and do things out of good will and out of the kindness of your heart, that extraordinary things happen. Why should I deprive Honda of the oportunity to show me how far they will go to help me out (by kindly asking what they can do for me, not demanding that they do something), they liked helping me out and I sure liked to be helped. This was a win-win for both of us. > > > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote > > >> > Contrast that with my experience with a 71 Corvette [quoted text clipped - 99 lines] > > If one does not like the terms of a warranty contract, then > > do not purchase the car, etc. > 1. The car broke down and left me stranded in the middle of a mountain > road >100 miles from home. I was saddled with a $400 tow truck bill. AAA Gold. Saved my butt once when someone RAN OVER the front end of our two year old Odyssey with a fully loaded 26 foot U-Haul truck. > 2. The car had been meticulously maintained at the Honda dealership > (including a 30K inspection with transmission fluid change), and I had > all the records. This is the step that many, many people miss. They're so focused on how bad they think "the stealership" is, or on how it's "always cheaper" to do it yourself, that they would never, ever consider entering into a business relationship with the dealer service department. The fact is, like you, I've had many items taken care of out of goodwill--mostly thanks to a solid business relationship with my dealership service department. Honda has a mechanism for goodwill repairs, but it's up to the service manager as much as anything to make things happen. The odds of him being on your side are incredibly better if you're a good paying customer with a decent history and--equally important--a good attitude. Does that mean there aren't bad dealerships and bad service managers? No it does not. But you figure out the odds for yourself on how things will go if you go in with a chip on your shoulder to a place you've never done business with before and ask for a $5000 transmission repair for free. > As the owner of the Honda with the blown transmission at 44K, I was > very surprised myself that they decided to replace it free of charge. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > type of problem at this mileage and we stand behind the quality of our > product, whether or not this is within the guarantee time-frame". Honda is being very smart in helping you out. The advertising value of doing right by a customer even when the legal terms say you don't have to is worth every dime spent by Honda. How many people will read your story on the 'net and be favorably impressed? John > Honda is being very smart in helping you out. The > advertising value of doing right by a customer even when [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > How many people will read your story on the 'net and be > favorably impressed? How many will read it and figure Honda kowtows to customers so that it can pass along the losses to other customers via higher prices? If Honda is too generous, it can't exist. >> Honda is being very smart in helping you out. The advertising value of >> doing right by a customer even when the legal terms say you don't have to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > If Honda is too generous, it can't exist. Exactly. Which is why you need good people making sound judgements. Sometimes you'll need to stay rigid and stick to your guns. Other times rules can be bent, allowing flexibility to make good business sense. Trying to read people is not always easy when you have a certain population trying to take advantage of everything they can get away with. You'll have rules and policy to abide by to prevent ABUSE. Other times you have to trust your instincts, common sense and use goodwill. I had an old Honda Prelude I liked taking to the dealership for work. Don't remember the exact circumstances or work done, but I had to bring it back a couple times due to a something that wasn't caught, fixed right, whatever. The service manager took care of the problem with a goodwill gesture on cost. Kept me as a happy customer that kept coming back, and will refer others if they want a dealership to do their work. Did I buy my new Honda there? No. It was towards the end of the year for new cars and they didn't have what I wanted in stock. I went further to buy. But I'd still go back if I want a dealership to do the service, I would still go to them. If Honda is too rigid, it also cannot exist. There's a balance. Goes the same for many other businesses. -Dave > I had an old Honda Prelude I liked taking to the > dealership for work. Don't remember the exact > circumstances or work done, but I had to bring it back a > couple times due to a something that wasn't caught, fixed > right, whatever. The service manager took care of the > problem with a goodwill gesture on cost. Well shucks, I think you were right to bring it back: The problem was not fixed. I'd bring it back, too (now that I have some backbone dealing with dealers, who by all reports do go around trying to screw over women). This should have been far less goodwill and more simply the service department joyously keeping up its end of the contract: It promised the car would be fixed. It wasn't. They are obliged to make good on the promise. > If Honda is too rigid, it also cannot exist. I agree that if the custom among typical manufacturers is to honor warranties up to X miles beyond what is stated in the contract, then Honda can't compete by doing otherwise. OTOH, I think you're still missing my point: I don't care too much what Honda does once the warranty period expires. The ball is in their court, the law on their side, whatever choice they make. It's a customer expecting (demanding) warranty service after the warranty expires that I completely condemn. A person should not sign a contract he does not intend to honor. >> I had an old Honda Prelude I liked taking to the dealership for work. >> Don't remember the exact circumstances or work done, but I had to bring [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > joyously keeping up its end of the contract: It promised the car would be > fixed. It wasn't. They are obliged to make good on the promise. As I mentioned, I unfortunately don't remember the exact circumstances so I can't provide details. I "DO" remember the dealership working with me. Some things are just unforseen, especially dealing with a 10+ year old used car. I agree there are many shops out there who screw people, whether it be women, students, elderly or foreigners. You are a woman so you see how you're treated. However it is not ONLY women. This would be a stereotype. Dealerships are only as good as the people working there, whether it be salespeople, mechanics, service advisors managers or owners. There are many bad apples out there but fortunately there are still some good ones too. From a business perspective, I remember my situation could have gone either way. I try to look at things from different perspectives and not jump to conclusions. That's part of understanding and negotiating. >> If Honda is too rigid, it also cannot exist. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Honda does once the warranty period expires. The ball is in their court, > the law on their side, whatever choice they make. No, I did not miss your point. There should be NO expectation Honda or anyone else needs to honor something outside of warranty unless there is intentional malice involved. > It's a customer expecting (demanding) warranty service after the warranty > expires that I completely condemn. A person should not sign a contract he > does not intend to honor. I agree with you here. Gotta lay the law down somewhere. However, there are always examples where a dealership or moco may choose to make an exception. If it's given under extenuating circumstances, I consider that goodwill. A customer should not expect nor demand warranty service after expiration. > > Honda is being very smart in helping you out. The > > advertising value of doing right by a customer even when [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > If Honda is too generous, it can't exist. Elle, I think what you may be forgetting here, is that Honda is not [any American auto manufacturer's name here] in the 1970s, and failures of this type are rare. At least we hope so. I assume that is why many are buying Hondas, for the reliability. If spectacular failures are really rare, then it is cheap to fix them free, as a public relations stunt. Or you fix one, and make the owners of a hundred others pay. I hope Honda is not doing that! Earle > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >> > Honda is being very smart in helping you out. The [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > for the reliability. If spectacular failures are really > rare, Seems to me by "spectacular failure" here you surely mean one so odd and at so low mileage that of course the warranty covers it; no questions by anyone. > then it is > cheap to fix them free, as a public relations stunt. Or > you fix one, and > make the owners of a hundred others pay. I hope Honda is > not doing that! Given that dealerships and Honda Corp. both have well-trained warranty departments with years of experience (one way or another) there is no doubt in my mind that it's a balancing act. That makes perfect sense to me. I agree with you. But it's the customer's actions for which I have criticism here, not Honda's. I will name one exception, and maybe it is a very germane one: Newer designs do have problems previously unknown arise. We all know that sometimes, with enough vehicles having problems, this will result in the extension of a warranty, or possibly reimbursement to some who thought they were not warrantied. This instance is not too distant from the aforementioned comment on the bearing warranty period being ridiculous. When such instances arise, I certainly think it's okay for a customer to go politely to Honda and the dealer and say, "I think this is ridiculous. I have read xyz and know this part should have lasted longer. I am really unhappy." Or I guess if someone feels really strongly about a matter, and has special expertise in it or has read thoroughly on it, being more demanding can be justified. Sometimes it's even a citizen's duty to do so, when the issue in question involves the safety of the driver or property. Some of those issues at times would, IMO, have demanded that an ethically minded car owner scream bloody murder to not just the dealer and manufacturer but, if the latter are not listening, all over the media. Ralph Nader is mostly a good guy in this respect, for example. Just for the record, I had an extended warranty on my 300M. I crunched it in a pothole going way too fast. The strut failed and a bunch of other things were damaged. chrysler dealer fixed it under the extended warranty. They should have told me to drive more carefully next time and charged me for the repair. Honda is not the only people doing decent things for customers. > As the owner of the Honda with the blown transmission at 44K, I was > very surprised myself that they decided to replace it free of charge. [quoted text clipped - 144 lines] >> > If one does not like the terms of a warranty contract, then >> > do not purchase the car, etc. > Are you condemning them for this? Absolutely. The mfg. has a responsibility to engineer and manufacture a quality product. 12,000 miles is an absurdly short life for a bearing and it's failure is the fault of the mfg., not the customer. But never mind, you will never understand .... > Elle wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > absurdly short life for a bearing and it's failure is the > fault of the mfg., not the customer. You're condemning them for the 12k mile limit. But buyers know about this limit in advance. The choice to make, therefore, is either not to buy the car or buy it and plan for the worst. That's the customer's choice. Your way seems to be anti-capitalist or even socialist. That's fine, but I doubt we'd have cars as fine as Honda and Toyota come out of non-capitalist societies. Five will get you ten. IMO condemning a corporation for refusing to honor an out of warranty request is somewhat different. I bet 300 miles of the 12300 was spent driving the car to the dealer for warranty service. >> Contrast that with my experience with a 71 Corvette some 35 years ago >> when a [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > refusing to honor a 12,000 mile warranty when the car had 12,001 miles on > it. It's illogical to do so. > Contrast that with my experience with a 71 Corvette some 35 years ago when a > rear wheel bearing distintegrated at 12,300 miles. The dealer refused to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > someone used to Chevy dealers. Started with Honda in 1967 with their > motorcycles and went to their cars in the late 80s. Never regretted it. You story is typical of GM in my experience. Had an A/C failure less than 1,000 miles out of warranty. GM said tough ****. Now driving Honda products! John |
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