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Car Forum / Honda Cars / August 2006Pissed - Need Advice - Engine Misfire on '03 Honda Accord
I admittedly know next to nothing about cars. Honda emails me I need the 45K service. I made an appointment & took it into my local Honda dealer for the service. When I made the appointment I said, "My check engine light is on also. Can you check that?" Yes, not a problem. When I came in on the day of my appointment I said again that I need the 45K service & my check engine light is on. I asked if it was on because it needed this service. The tech. said no. She said it usually comes on because of a problem with the emissions system. An hour goes by & the tech. comes to me in the waiting area and says that the Check Engine light is on because the engine is misfiring. She said that they needed to flush the pistons? Perhaps I didn't hear her correctly, but I swear that is what I heard her say. She says it will be about $100. OH & they reccomend that I have the power steering fluid replaced. Perhaps because of my ignorance I am remembering what she said incorrectly. One thing that I clearly remember was that there were two extra services they were performing and that each service was about $100 & that one of those services was supposed to take care of the engine misfire problem. Great. $500+ on my car. Just what I was looking forward to. We just spent $500 for a brake job that I'm almost positive could have been avoided. That's a vent for another thread. So I have spent $1000 on this hunk of junk this summer while still making monthly payments. I understand Hondas are great cars and whatnot, but you can't prove it to me right now. It might drive nicely and be a nice car, but I've never spent this much money on a car while still making payments. Anyway, the VERY next day I start the car up. My 2nd trip of the day & the Check Engine light is on again!!! Talk about pissed off!! I am livid. I called the dealership and the person is at lunch that I need to talk to. I leave a message. The person calls me back about an hour later & I didn't hear the phone ring. 45 mins after that I call back and make an appointment to bring my car in the next day. So I bring it in for service and the people are telling me that the service that was performed would most likely not take care of a engine misfire problem, but that it might. What the f.ck is that all about? My receipt says, "Air Intake Service (Throttle Plate) BG2902 BG2902 Air Intake Service (Throttle Plate) BG2902 57 CPK 1 2902 Plenum Service Kit Total price for this is $99.86. They said that the check engine light could be on for any number of reasons and that a misfire code could be any different number of things, but that service would most likely not take care of it. WTF??? I'm so pissed. I have just moved from MA to NC. I purchased my car in MA and the dealership I have dealt with up there has always been very nice & pleasant and knowledgable. I am so mad that I was told the service that was performed would take care of my problem & it didn't. To go back there and for them to tell me that service most likely would not fix the problem is infuriating. I want to know why the hell the service was done & charged to me if it wasn't going to take care of the problem. So after an hour at the dealership today they said they need more time to run further tests to figure out what's wrong. I asked if they had a shuttle car that could take us home. NO. I asked if they had a loaner car I could take. No again. Oh I'm so pissed off. We took my car home and got my husband's car & returned to the dealership to drop my car back off. I don't know what to do. I feel like I'm dealing with incompetents and getting f.cked in the process. Is this normal? Is my frustration and feelings uncalled for? Thanks for reading. I would appreciate any input you might have. > I admittedly know next to nothing about cars. Honda emails me I need > the 45K service. I made an appointment & took it into my local Honda [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > Thanks for reading. I would appreciate any input you might have. ok, you are getting hosed, but getting pissed won't work as a remedy strategy. call honda usa's national customer service line, and calmly explain the problems. write them out before hand if it'll help you be able to do it more effectively. here's the deal on the car: 1. the check engine light will give a code the dealer can read off the engine computer. that should give them an exact diagnostic on the problem. they should tell you the code - it'll be something like "p0145". look that up in the odbcII code list on tegger.com to see what it means. 2. a "flush" service is likely injector cleaner. you can do that yourself for $5 or less. 3. $500 for a brake job at only 45k miles is a little steep. it's technically possible it needed the service, but statistically unlikely. discuss that with honda usa's customer service rep. have your invoices handy. 4. there is no power steering fluid service interval specified by honda - it's usually good for the life of the car. don't buy that one. 5. the plenum service is throttle body cleaner. again, it's possible at your mileage, but unlikely. you could do that yourself, depending on how handy you are. 6. your car is almost certainly still under warranty!!! bottom line, call honda and calmly explain what happened, why you think it unreasonable, and /ask/ what can be done about it. honey works much better than vinegar. if you do this right, honda will call the dealer for you and tell them to sort you out. again, honey works better than vinegar. don't call when you're angry!!! good luck. get back to us with any questions. and once you've sorted this out, find yourself a different dealer or a good independent mechanic to deal with this stuff from now on. your wallet is ultimately your best weapon. > 4. there is no power steering fluid service interval specified by honda > - it's usually good for the life of the car. don't buy that one. And likely it wasn't even done. I want to call the 800 # as suggested, but my car is still at the dealership. They're supposedly doing tests to figure out why the Engine light is coming on. I'm waiting for them to call me back & let me know something. Should I wait or should I call now? The service manager said he would refund us the cost of the Air Intake Service & the Power Steering Fluid exchange. I am going to hold him to it. When they call me to tell me what's going on with my car & how much it's going to cost I will research it before I say yes or no. In my original message when I said service technician I should have said service advisor. I just looked at my invoice again and saw I had the person's title wrong. > I want to call the 800 # as suggested, but my car is still at the > dealership. So? True story: back in 1985 or 86, I had a 79 Civic where the gas tank started leaking. I took it to my dealer, who immediately recognized it as a goodwill warranty issue and who handled it completely and had it back in my hands within 24 hours. Based on that, my girlfriend (now wife) bought a 79 civic not too long thereafter. And awhile later, its gas tank started leaking in the same place, same way. Ha, no problem. I had her take it to the dealer closer to her and explain that it's a warranty issue, that they should check with Honda. This is a Friday morning. Friday at 4pm they call and tell her come and get the car, it'll be $200. WHAT? This place never called Honda like we told them to. We're poor college students, and she's quite upset. I said "hang on here," and called the local zone office. Keep in mind it's 4:15 now on a Friday afternoon. I explained the situation to a very nice guy, who said "that's bullshit, hang on for a minute" and put me on hold. A few minutes later he comes back and says "go get your car, it's handled". We go in to pick up the car. The service manager is behind the service desk and hears us come in. She couldn't help herself; she had to say it. "So you went over our heads, huh?" You bet your a.s, sweetie. I never once worried that the car was still there. > Should I wait or should I call now? The service manager said he would > refund us the cost of the Air Intake Service & the Power Steering Fluid > exchange. You betcha--because he knows he'll be spanked by Honda. I forgot to mention something that I suppose was pretty important. The service manager offered to credit the cost of the two extra services they performed back to our credit card. We agreed on the Air Intake Service because we were specifically told that would take care of the Misfire, but said if the Power Steering fluid needed to be flushed & we agreed we were fine with it. Now that I'm hearing what you are saying that Power Steering fluid is typcially good for the life of the car then I am going to insist that be credited back as well. I did call the 800#. They assigned me a case # & said someone would look into it & contact the dealer in 2 days. I do not think anything has been credited back yet. I assume they will apply the $$ to the new bill whenever they figure out what's wrong with my car. > I do not think anything has been credited back yet. A credit to one's credit card account typically will take a few days following the merchant's completion of his/her end of the paperwork, etc. Your posts are going to help others. Hang in there. Thanks. They aren't going to credit anything yet. They want to figure out what's wrong witht he car first and then when they figured out what's owed or not owed they will issue a credit. I talked to the service manager in depth and he had a lot to say. First of he's insulted that I think they're padding bills and whatnot. He says he wouldn't be able to sleep at night if he went about business that way. Anyway, he seems to think it's an electrical issue. He does think that this will come under the warranty & if not he said that he'll contact Honda & ask them to cover it. He says 9 out of 10 times Honda comes through. He seems to think my car is safe to drive even if the engine light comes on. I was concerned because I'm supposed to be going out of town on Sun. & need to take my car. Sorry Tegger if my posts are too long for you. > > I do not think anything has been credited back yet. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Your posts are going to help others. Hang in there. > I talked to the service manager in depth and he had a lot to say. > First of he's insulted that I think they're padding bills and whatnot. dingdingdingdingdingdingdingdingdingdingWARNINGWARNINGWARNINGWARNINGwhooo oop!whoooooop!whooooooop! He's in the wrong. And he's giving the "I'm insulted!" reaction to try to hide that. > > I talked to the service manager in depth and he had a lot to say. > > First of he's insulted that I think they're padding bills and whatnot. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > He's in the wrong. And he's giving the "I'm insulted!" reaction to try > to hide that. Yessir... Nothing like the shady guy trying to lay on a guilt trip! <G> JT >>> I talked to the service manager in depth and he had a lot to say. >>> First of he's insulted that I think they're padding bills and whatnot. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Yessir... Nothing like the shady guy trying to lay on a guilt trip! Amen, brother! >> I talked to the service manager in depth and he had a lot to say. >> First of he's insulted that I think they're padding bills and whatnot. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > He's in the wrong. And he's giving the "I'm insulted!" reaction to try > to hide that. Or he feigns being insulted because he knows he's in the wrong - happens all the time. Mostly he's trying to make the customer feel guilty/sorry for him, don't play along, Kelly, business is business and it's your $$$. IMHO you have a good car (I have an '03 Accord myself), but a crap dealer. > I admittedly know next to nothing about cars. <snip> That much is clear. Which is no embarrassment, of course. Call the service advisor (not "tech") and ask what the error code was in both incidents. If she refuses to tell, insist that is your right to know since you paid for the services. Those alphanumeric codes are critical to ANY analysis. And please keep your descriptions much shorter. My eyes glazed over reading your magnum opus, and I never finished it.  SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > And please keep your descriptions much shorter. My eyes glazed over reading > your magnum opus, and I never finished it. Oh come on, it wasn't THAT long and boring. And she did use paragraphs. It sounds like you are being screwed around by a dealer who is simply padding the bill with extra services that Honda doesn't call for while at the same time failing to properly diagnose whatever is actually setting the check engine light. Run, don't walk, to someone who knows what they are doing and operates an honest shop. John > It sounds like you are being screwed around by a dealer who is simply > padding the bill with extra services that Honda doesn't call for while [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > John Can you tell us what city or area of the country where this dealer is located - this guy is a crook - people like him can truly be called stealers. Also let us know what Honda USA has to say about this crook. Autopark Honda in Cary, NC > > It sounds like you are being screwed around by a dealer who is simply > > padding the bill with extra services that Honda doesn't call for while [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > located - this guy is a crook - people like him can truly be called > stealers. Also let us know what Honda USA has to say about this crook. > It sounds like you are being screwed around by a dealer who is simply > padding the bill with extra services that Honda doesn't call for while > at the same time failing to properly diagnose whatever is actually > setting the check engine light. The worst of both worlds - a winning combo! My car is home although it is not fixed. They said it is perfectly safe to drive. I needed the car for a trip to the beach this weekend. They wouldn't give me a loaner car for my trip. It's only a couple of hundred miles from here, but I understand their policy. I am supposed to take it back when I get back in a week and they will provide me with a loaner car. I took my husband's car in for service today. They came back & told me that his back brakes needed to be done. His car has like 32K on it and his brakes are much tighter than mine. I told them NO. We'll get another opinion somewhere else. I'm really disappointed in my experience & depressed about it. I talked to a mechanic today who said that if the car is still under warranty the best place to take the car is to the dealer. There are other dealers around, but I believe they're a good 20 miles away & are owned by the same person. Today when I brought my husband's car in for service I told the service advisor I wanted to know what was going on with my car. It took more than 45 mins. to find anything out. I asked when I first arrived and then 45 mins later when I went to ask again she told me she couldn't get through to the person working on it that there phone was busy. She said she would come find me when she knew something. I waited about 15 more mins before I went back over to ask again and then she told me they had replaced the coil and were waiting for the car to cool off to test again. Still getting the misfire. This might be picky, but when you have a 3 year old it makes a difference. Their play area SUCKS. My old dealership had free sodas - coke, diet coke, juice, milk, bottled water, donuts, bagels, crackers/cheese, & cereal for customers. This place has free popcorn. Waiting at this place for service is not fun. My daughter would actually get excited about going to the car dealer like it was an amusement park or something. Not anymore!! I guess I have been spoiled. > I don't know what to do. I feel like I'm dealing with incompetents and > getting f.cked in the process. Dealerships are independent businesses. Some are better than others. Call Honda and complain. http://www.odyclub.com/customer.html Find another dealership and get another opinion. I guarantee that each code has its own procedure for tracking down the problem. Honda or another dealer may be different for you than these guys. Calm down. There are better service organizations in the world; you know that from experience. You'll find one. Don't overlook a local mechanic. Maybe you can find one who specializes in Honda. That was some interesting reading and you have already received some good advice. I'm afraid many service advisors try to act like they are master technicians, when in fact their main job, in my opinion, is to bring in the $$$$. You're aware you're still under Honda's emission warranty I hope? I would read up on the coverage, some items 5 years - 50,000 miles. Some items are longer I suspect. Changing the power steering fluid is not needed at your low milage, but your auto transmission and coolant should have already been changed. You must use only genuine Honda power steering fluid, same goes for auto transmission fluid. Many people on this Forum say to only use Honda coolant as well. Good luck They are still trying to figure out what the problem is. It seems the car only misfires when it's first started and smoothes out when it's warmed up. The misfire codes are P0300, P0301, P0302, P0303, P0304, P0305, & P0306. They're not going to refund the power steering fluid exchange. The service manager says they reccomend it be done every 30K miles. Whatever. I don't know what to think. >They are still trying to figure out what the problem is. It seems the >car only misfires when it's first started and smoothes out when it's [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >service manager says they reccomend it be done every 30K miles. >Whatever. I don't know what to think. I would definitely take this up with the Honda Customer Relations Office 1-800-999-1009. As stated earlier there is no periodic requirement for flushing the power steering fluid. The only time it is required in the manual is if you use a non-Honda fluid in an emergency. Then you are supposed to have the system flushed ASAP. There IS a requirement at 45,000 miles to flush the brake fluid. You might question why they did the non-required one, and not the required one. These service writers are really sneaky at times. I find the real service managers to often be easier to deal with and more honest. The service writers just want to sell you stuff. Of course I realize the service writers work for the service manager. Several times I have had service done that wasn't necessary at that mileage. Their computers are even set up to print out these unnecessary service procedures on the service order so it looks like it is a Honda requirement. This has happened to me so many times I now carry a copy of the Maintenance Schedule from the Owner's Manual with me to compare what they told me is required with what Honda has specified in the manual. Sometimes if you question something, they will say it's because your car falls under the severe service schedule. That doesn't work with me anymore because I already know my car falls under the severe service schedule. My advice to you is to scan a copy of the pages from the manual that are applicable to your engine and driving conditions. Then, when they start quoting requirements, take out your sheet and have them show you where it is required. Good luck on the check engine light problem. You should know that the first thing you should check when the light comes on is the fuel filler cap to see that it is tight fitting. This is explained on page 349 of the manual. Also read the pages on emissions controls starting at page 371. Then read about the Federal emissions warranties in the Warranties book that came with your car, starting on page 14. An informed customer is better armed to do battle with incompetent or sneaky service people. You really need to talk to Honda Customer Service at the number I gave you above. Dick > >They are still trying to figure out what the problem is. It seems the > >car only misfires when it's first started and smoothes out when it's [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > might question why they did the non-required one, and not the required > one. I used to know a used car dealer in Redmond, WA, who specialized in high mileage but still serviceable vehicles for the economy crowd. He claimed that lots of the over one hundred thousand mile cars with rack and pinion steering had that part fail, until he adopted a policy of flushing the power steering fluid on every one that went through his lot. I would question the required versus not required issue myself. Earle I did contact Honda Customer Relations today & was given a case # and told that they would follow up with me (or the dealer?) in two days. The first thing I did when I saw that the engine light was on was to tighten the gas cap. That didn't work. There is definitely a problem with the engine misfiring when it's started up. I will take a look at the manual more closely before having any further service done in the future. Honestly this is the first time I've had any extra services done that weren't a part of the standard service. Then again this is my first time at this particular Honda dealer too. The dealer back in MA doesn't do extra services like this & they also have no haggle pricing. It was part of the reason I bought my car there. I've gotten my cars serviced at dealerships in the past & I've never had any thing like this done before. If I brought my car in for an oil change that's what I got. If I brought the car in for the 30K service or whatever it might be that's what I got. We'll see how it turns out. The service advisor called me around 5:15pm or so and said that they had updated the computer & the car was no longer coming up with a misfire code. He said that they thought the car hadn't been allowed to cool off long enough tho & that it may be an inaccurate reading. He said they would do more testing in the morning. > >They are still trying to figure out what the problem is. It seems the > >car only misfires when it's first started and smoothes out when it's [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Dick > I will take a look at the manual more closely before having any further > service done in the future. Honestly this is the first time I've had > any extra services done that weren't a part of the standard service. Ah. WHOSE standard service? You *assumed* that when they said they would do the "standard service" that they were talking about the manufacturer's standard service. They weren't. They were talking about their own standard service. > The dealer back in MA doesn't do extra services like this We have to admit, you've been spoiled. You should at least feel good about the service you used to get... > If I brought the car in for the 30K service > or whatever it might be that's what I got. There is no "30K service". Even your owner's manual gives different service schedules for different types of driving. > They're not going to refund the power steering fluid exchange. The > service manager says they reccomend it be done every 30K miles. > Whatever. I don't know what to think. Ask them to show you the manufacturer's recommendations on that. It's not in the owner's manual anywhere, trust me. So ask them to see Honda documentation that backs up his claim. > They are still trying to figure out what the problem is. It seems the > car only misfires when it's first started and smoothes out when it's [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > service manager says they reccomend it be done every 30K miles. > Whatever. I don't know what to think. Modern stealerships routinely tell people that they need services like this which the manufacturer does not suggest or endorse. It is a profit booster for the shop, pure and simple. It pisses me off that Honda and others don't crack down on the deceptive sales tactics used. Dealer XYZ will say "we recommend a ______ at 30,000 miles to protect your car, shall we take care of that today". The customer might think that the Honda service schedule says _______ needs to be done, but the fact is that the dealer is just trying to make more money. Heck, sometimes the work then isn't even done. How would you know if the power steering fluid actually got flushed? John > They are still trying to figure out what the problem is. It seems the > car only misfires when it's first started and smoothes out when it's > warmed up. > > The misfire codes are P0300, P0301, P0302, P0303, P0304, P0305, & > P0306. ok, check this out: http://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/generic/p0300-random-multiple-cylinder-mi sfire-detected.php the fact that you're registering misfire on all the individual cylinders as well means it's highly unlikely to be any individual item like a plug or injector. the shop should be fixing something that affects everything like egr or a sensor. and they should do it under warranty. > They're not going to refund the power steering fluid exchange. The > service manager says they reccomend it be done every 30K miles. > Whatever. I don't know what to think. speak to honda usa. that is not in the service specs - they're hosing you. Just for my 2 cents. Take good notes with date, time and person that you talked with. This will be very handy when all is said and done... >I admittedly know next to nothing about cars. Honda emails me I need > the 45K service. I made an appointment & took it into my local Honda [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > Thanks for reading. I would appreciate any input you might have. > I admittedly know next to nothing about cars. Honda emails me I need > the 45K service. I made an appointment & took it into my local Honda [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > Thanks for reading. I would appreciate any input you might have. So where did this saga endup and what was the problem finally? Curious minds want to know. |
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