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Car Forum / Honda Cars / August 2006Honda Civic 1993 - intermittent failure to start
My 1993 Civic has new-onset failure to start. The problem has occurred sporadically and only on very hot days. A friend swears it's vapor lock; previous posts to this group indicate that vapor lock is very unlikely and suggests a main relay problem. * *{Additonal data: Several times the problem was solved by waiting til the next morning and trying again. Two other times we've put STP Gas Treatment in the tank and the car started up immediately. The problem never occurred until this year. The first time the car wouldn't start, the positive battery terminal was severely corroded. Cleaning it did not start the car. The car started right up when the mechanic checked it hours later. He noted that, unrelated, the head gasket needed to be replaced, and he did that.} My questions: if it were a main relay, why would the problem only occur on scorching hot days? In any case, why would such a problem have sudden onset? (I'm the original owner and this has never happened before this year.) Could it have anything to do with ethanol supplemented gasoline? Thanks > My 1993 Civic has new-onset failure to start. The problem > has occurred [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > problem only occur > on scorching hot days? The high heat expands the solder joints inside the main relay. The joints fail, meaning they won't conduct electricity. > In any case, why would such a problem have > sudden onset? (I'm the original owner and this has never > happened > before this year.) Could it have anything to do with > ethanol > supplemented gasoline? No. The main relay problem is strictly an electrical problem, insofar as car systems are concerned. http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/startproblems.html#mainrelay has a discussion on the main relay. Note the suggestion (among others) to smack the dash to help identify whether the main relay is the problem. If it's never been replaced or repaired before, it's a very strong candidate for your problem. Many mechanics do not know about it. Honda owners do. > If it's [the Main Relay] never been replaced or repaired before, it's > a very strong candidate for your problem. > > Many mechanics do not know about it. Honda owners do. Very odd, that, isn't it? Something less than half the email I get has to do with the single problem of the Main Relay. It is easily the #1 Honda problem, far outstripping any other single issue. And yet almost none of the pros are even vaguely aware of it.  SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> If it's [the Main Relay] never been replaced or repaired before, it's >> a very strong candidate for your problem. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > other single issue. And yet almost none of the pros are even vaguely aware > of it. actually, if you're used honda scuzzbag like me, this is a great thing. it means you can buy non-functioning hondas for almost nothing and drive around in a virtually free car. or give them to friends. feel the love, man! >>> If it's [the Main Relay] never been replaced or repaired before, >>> it's a very strong candidate for your problem. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > drive around in a virtually free car. or give them to friends. feel > the love, man! LOL SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >> If it's [the Main Relay] never been replaced or repaired [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Very odd, that, isn't it? Yes. I think it's quite an argument for the value of amateurs posting their experiences to internet fora like this. The database is enormous and often is scientifically significant. > Something less than half the email I get has to do with > the single problem > of the Main Relay. It is easily the > #1 Honda problem, far outstripping any > other single > issue. This data point in itself is important. Aside: I was just reading your PCV site. I have long wondered how your 91 Integra's PCV valve stayed pristinely clean for over 200k miles while my 91 Civic's was "chock full of waxy buildup" at about 140k miles. This is despite my frequent (every 6 mos/3k miles for many years, followed by 6 mos/5k miles more recently) oil changes since buying the car new in 1991. Last winter I found my PCV valve had way more waxy specks than usual following the use of STP fuel system cleaner. I hardly ever get the specks with Chevron Techron fuel system cleaner. You say you have used only Chevron gas, known to have cleaners in it. I have always used whatever gas was cheapest. I wonder if this explains the difference between your and my differing PCV valve experiences. Just thought I'd toss that in there for the weekend car talk series. > You say you have used only Chevron gas, I'm kind of curious where you found that. Chevron does not have retail outlets in Canada. Nor does it sell its Techron additive in stores up here (tho' I wish it did...). > known to > have cleaners in it. I have always used whatever gas was > cheapest. I've used Imperial Oil (Exxon) almost 100% over the last 15.5 years. In Ontario, Canada, that means the old eastern-US "ESSO" brand, by which name the retail stores are still known up here. I use ESSO because they are the last major up here to not use ethanol. (As an aside, ESSO originally stood for "Eastern Seaboard Standard Oil". Nobody knows that these days...) > I wonder if this explains the difference between > your and my differing PCV valve experiences. Your situation is most intriguing. I wish I could see your car personally. I've seen sludgy buildup many times, but never the waxy stuff you describe. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > I've used Imperial Oil (Exxon) almost 100% over the last 15.5 years. In > Ontario, Canada, that means the old eastern-US "ESSO" brand, by which name > the retail stores are still known up here. I use ESSO because they are the > last major up here to not use ethanol. I had been filling up at Sunoco for the last 3 years, and only recently I noticed on one pump that their gas had some amount of ethanol in it (I forget the actual percentage, but I think it was 10%). Not to defend the use of ethanol, but so far my '93 Accord's performance and gas mileage have not suffered as a result of using Sunoco gas (I still average 33mpg on the highway, which is well above EPA's original estimate). Perhaps I should try Esso again to see if slight improvements in both can still be achieved. > the retail stores are still known up here. I use ESSO because they are the > last major up here to not use ethanol. > > (As an aside, ESSO originally stood for "Eastern Seaboard Standard Oil". > Nobody knows that these days...) Interesting about the Esso brand because I have a nice lighted oval shaped Esso sign hanging in my basement that was trashed when they were swapping all the Esso signs around here to Exxon. I figured it was a bit of a treasure by now because they had been gone so long. Well, it still makes a nice light! :-) > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >> You say you have used only Chevron gas, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > in stores up here > (tho' I wish it did...). Obviously I misremembered/confused your post with someone else's. I groups.googled and see your post from a few years ago where you say you use the Esso (premium in the summer). There is also no question you have been more meticulous about your 91 Integra's upkeep than I have with my 91 Civic's. I suppose it's either this or the gasoline or some combination that have yielded your car's PCV valve staying so clean. But I really don't know. I just "discovered" a better junkyard in my area; carefully organized but customers have the run of the place for a dollar admission charge. It has several c. 1990 Civics and Integra. Next trip, maybe I'll pull off a few PCV valves, noting the mileage of the cars, and see if anything interesting is revealed. >> known to >> have cleaners in it. I have always used whatever gas was [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I've seen sludgy buildup many times, but never the waxy > stuff you describe. It was only evident in my Civic's PCV valve in 2003. The new PCV valve has stayed very clean, excepting my experience with the STP fuel system cleaner. I have been under the valve cover several times since (checking valve lash, replacing the gasket, replacing those spark plug tube oil seals between cylinder head and rocker arm), and the rocker arms, tower, etc. look not spanking clean, but certainly nothing like a sludged engine. My manual transmissions instructor totally dissed my use of Pennzoil (exclusively) the other week. Maybe it's a bad choice. I am not inclined to switch, though, since I have never seen a consensus against it. Let me cease to be a hijacker and return this thread to its original programming. :-) > My 1993 Civic has new-onset failure to start. The problem has occurred > sporadically and only on very hot days. See Elle's response. It's your PGM-FI Main Relay. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ Do a search on the main relay and you will see lots of comments about temperature. Hot days really brings the problem on. Good luck. |
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