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Car Forum / Honda Cars / November 2006Integra Won't Crank
95 Integra LS (92K mi) - New battery, New ignition switch (Key cylinder), Verified working main relay and fuel pump. A few times a week, there is dead silence when I turn the key. I would do this a few times and sometimes on the 3rd - 10th try, the car would start, sometimes not. Any ideas on where to start? >95 Integra LS (92K mi) - New battery, New ignition switch (Key >cylinder), Verified working main relay and fuel pump. > >A few times a week, there is dead silence when I turn the key. I would >do this a few times and sometimes on the 3rd - 10th try, the car would >start, sometimes not. Any ideas on where to start? That happened to my '94 GS-R a couple years ago. It gradually got worse and worse. Turned out to be the starter. > 95 Integra LS (92K mi) - New battery, New ignition switch (Key > cylinder), Verified working main relay and fuel pump. > > A few times a week, there is dead silence when I turn the key. I would > do this a few times and sometimes on the 3rd - 10th try, the car would > start, sometimes not. Any ideas on where to start? Sounds like a zorched starter solenoid. I don't know anything about a 95 Integra. Sometimes the solenoid can be changed seperately from the starter, others are integral, and the whole kaboodle must be exchanged. In a pinch, you may be able to disassemble the solenoid and (partially) repair the contacts by scraping them to bare metal. Thanks for the feedback. I have done my share of research and have come up with either: 1) Starter Solenoid (Can someone tell me which part this is in the link?) http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/jsp/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=INT EGRA&catcgry2=1995&catcgry3=4DR+LS&catcgry4=KA4AT&catcgry5=STARTER%2BMOTOR%2B%28 DENSO%29&ListAll=All&vinsrch=no or, 2) Ignition Unit Assembly http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/jsp/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=INT EGRA&catcgry2=1995&catcgry3=4DR+LS&catcgry4=KA4AT&catcgry5=DISTRIBUTOR%2B%28TEC% 29&ListAll=All&vinsrch=no How do I go about troubleshooting this issue? Thanks in advance. I'll make sure post the learnings for this group. > Thanks for the feedback. I have done my share of research and have > come up with either: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/jsp/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=INT EGRA&catcgry2=1995&catcgry3=4DR+LS&catcgry4=KA4AT&catcgry5=STARTER%2BMOTOR%2B%28 DENSO%29&ListAll=All&vinsrch=no I don't see it. Look at one of the 'integra starter solenoid' units on Ebay. It looks like the units are possibly stand-alone, physicaly removed from the starter. This is a good thing in that it will likely be easier to access. > How do I go about troubleshooting this issue? Thanks in advance. I'll > make sure post the learnings for this group. Working or not, the solenoid should make a slight metalic 'clunk' when the key is turned. If not, then an ignition system problem becomes slightly more likely. Even then, I'd first beep out the solenoid's input coil and check the wiring around it. Moderate tapping on the solenoid will often get it to work. If that doesn't help try this: The classic way of hotwiring (completely bypassing) a bad solenoid is to turn the ignition on and short the two solenoid output terminals with a screwdriver. Crude but effective - the starter WILL get +12v. > Thanks for the feedback. I have done my share of research and have > come up with either: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/jsp/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=INT EGRA&catcgry2=1995&catcgry3=4DR+LS&catcgry4=KA4AT&catcgry5=STARTER%2BMOTOR%2B%28 DENSO%29&ListAll=All&vinsrch=no That link doesn't show the solenoid... on this picture: http://autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d801a9097.gif it's the smaller cylinder on the right side of the assembly (this is for an 88-93 Integra, but shouldn't be too different). The solenoid is basically a combination of a high-current relay (to feed the starter motor itself) and a mechanical throw-out that pushes the starter gear into position to mesh with the flywheel. > 2) Ignition Unit Assembly > > http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/jsp/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=INT EGRA&catcgry2=1995&catcgry3=4DR+LS&catcgry4=KA4AT&catcgry5=DISTRIBUTOR%2B%28TEC% 29&ListAll=All&vinsrch=no That would have nothing to do with the engine not turning over - that just controls the spark. > How do I go about troubleshooting this issue? Thanks in advance. I'll > make sure post the learnings for this group. >> Thanks for the feedback. I have done my share of research and have >> come up with either: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> How do I go about troubleshooting this issue? Thanks in advance. I'll >> make sure post the learnings for this group. No if the solenoid is bad the starter will still run, still creating some type or sound, it just wont engage with the flywheel. The solenoid has nothing to do with any electrical current what so ever at any given time during engine operation. It is like a little slide for the starter gear to rest on and move into position with the flywheel to start the vechile. Just thought you should know, Poofy Solenoid on your pic is #9. Since it is combined with the starter itself, you have to replace the whole thing. Get a refurbished or used one - would be way cheaper.  SignatureMishaA http://www.automotiveforums.com poofy4204 Wrote: > No if the solenoid is bad the starter will still run, still creating > some [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Just thought you should know, > Poofy Please, don't post if you don't know what you are talking about, you just mislead other people. SignatureMishaA http://www.automotiveforums.com >>>Thanks for the feedback. I have done my share of research and have >>>come up with either: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > No if the solenoid is bad the starter will still run, still creating some > type or sound, it just wont engage with the flywheel. That depends on exactly what is wrong with the solenoid. > The solenoid has > nothing to do with any electrical current what so ever at any given time > during engine operation. It is like a little slide for the starter gear to > rest on and move into position with the flywheel to start the vechile. I see. And you come by this gem of information, how? Obviously not from rebuilding any starters. Tell us then, why does the big thick cable from my battery connect to the back of the solenoid and not the starter motor itself? Does the 200-350A that the starter is capable of drawing (according to the spec in the manual) actually go through the little thin wiring to my key switch? Explain the diagrams and schematic here then: http://www.moltenimage.com/freebies/g3accord/engine_electrical/24-25.JPG The solenoid on a *typical* electric starter is a two-function device: a high-current relay *and* a mechanical throwout for the starter gears. At least, it has been in assorted different Dodge, Mazda and Honda vehicles I've owned and repaired over the years. In fact, I've only ever seen one variation on the concept, and that was in old Fords, where the solenoid was a standalone unit generally mounted to one side of the engine bay that acted ONLY as a high-current relay for the starter lead, and the gear throwout was strictly mechanical. I just thought it might be starter relay or whatever it is called. I mean not solenoid, but another relay between main switch and solenoid. Expecially if there is no sound when you turn the key SignatureMishaA http://www.automotiveforums.com > I just thought it might be starter relay or whatever it is called. I > mean not solenoid, but another relay between main switch and solenoid. > Expecially if there is no sound when you turn the key My rant was more aimed at "poofy", who as you already noted, really doesn't know what he's talking about :) The solenoid IS the relay between the key switch and the starter - on my Accord, there is nothing else between the key and the "S" terminal on the solenoid (there's an interlock switch on automatics that prevents starting when not in Park or Neutral, and some newer MT cars have an interlock on the clutch). I don't believe the starter signal goes through the main relay (a common culprit in most Hondas) either. If there's not even a "click" from the engine bay when the key is turned, it's quite likely the solenoid that's that problem. Take a look at the complete start/ignition wiring diagram for the G3 Accord: http://moltenimage.com/freebies/g3accord/engine_electrical/24-3.JPG Note the battery cable connects directly to the 'B' terminal on the solenoid; the connection between the 'M' terminal and the starter motor itself is internal (or semi-internal; it's a part of the assembly, in any case). When you turn the key, the solenoid coil in energized directly; when the solenoid armature pulls in, it makes the contact to power the starter motor, as well as pushing out the starter gear (which isn't shown on the wiring diagram). It's a time-tested and very effective design. Most cars' starter systems will not differ significantly. Yeah, just looked at my civic wiring diagram - you are right. I just thought for some reason that solenoid current still should be too high for ignition switch, so there should be one more relay in between, and did not bother to check. My bad :frown: SignatureMishaA http://www.automotiveforums.com > Yeah, just looked at my civic wiring diagram - you are right. I just > thought for some reason that solenoid current still should be too high > for ignition switch, so there should be one more relay in between, and > did not bother to check. My bad :frown: No problem. I don't know exactly what the current draw of the solenoid itself it - it would be a fair bit, because it does have to move a relatively hefty mechanism, and the starter lead in the steering-column wiring is rather thick (I think 16 or 14 guage), but the bulk of the actual cranking current is switched by the solenoid itself. > No if the solenoid is bad the starter will still run, still creating some > type or sound, it just wont engage with the flywheel. The solenoid has [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Just thought you should know, > Poofy I wish you would let the solenoid on my mitsuba starter know that. It's gradually crapping out, and trust me, it does have something to do with electricity to the starter. I can send you a schematic of the solenoid circuit if needed. The OP's problem sounds like a flaky solenoid, but I would double check to make sure it's not the ignition switch before I went to buy a new starter or solenoid. Sometimes flaky solenoids can make a clunk, or make the starter act real slow like a nearly dead battery. It's also possible to have a bad one make no sound at all. But not sure about hondas in particular. It's common for say a GM starter to not make a sound with a hot/bad solenoid. I've seen it many times. Once those cool off, they usually start. The problem on mine is the "slow motor/acts like a low battery syndrome. And it doesn't do it all the time. Sometimes it's perfectly normal. Hondas generally use ND or Mitsuba starters. If you have a ND, you are in luck. Contact kits for those are readily available. But the mitsuba starter, I've yet to find a stand alone solenoid or kit for sale so far. Kinda sucks.. I have a perfectly good starter, but can't change the lousy micky mouse solenoid. I may have to buy a whole new starter. I hear tell the ND's, and mitubas will interchange..I'm almost tempted to change from the mitsuba to the ND, so I can change the solenoid contacts in the future.. But then again, I may not have the car long enough to wear out another starter, unless they give me a piece of junk. I had heard you could buy new contact kits from the dealer, but I asked them the last time I was there, and they didn't have any. BTW, solenoid problems are fairly common on honda starters. The starters themselves are usually still good. I don't know why the auto parts stores, or even the dealer can't stock just the solenoid. It's all about $$$. They want to sell you a new or rebuilt starter. And some of the rebuilts are probably not as good as the old stock starter if it's a OEM part. MK > would double check to make sure it's not the ignition switch before I > went to buy a new starter or solenoid. OP already said he's got a new key switch and battery... > Sometimes flaky solenoids can make a clunk, or make the starter > act real slow like a nearly dead battery. > It's also possible to have a bad one make no sound at all. But not sure > about hondas in particular. It's common for say a GM starter to not > make a sound with a hot/bad solenoid. There are really three possible main points of failure specific to the solenoid: 1. Bad relay contacts: solenoid will "clunk" as the armature throws out, but starter will not turn or will turn slowly; 2. Bad solenoid coil: weak or no "clunk" at all, as the coil fails to pull the armature sufficiently to engage the relay contacts and/or the drive gear; 3. Bad throwout mechanism: starter will spin, but drive gear isn't being pushed out, and will not engage. Of course, loose connections are always a possibility as well, including the short one between the solenoid and the starter motor itself. > The problem on mine is the "slow motor/acts like a low battery > syndrome. Solenoid contacts are the likely culprits. Could also be a bad bearing in the starter motor itself - when hot, parts stick as metal expands, you'd probably hear a typical bad-bearing grinding/whining sound when it does crank over - or bad brushes on the starter motor. > I don't know why the auto parts stores, or even the dealer > can't stock just the solenoid. It's all about $$$. > They want to sell you a new or rebuilt starter. Could always get a used one from an auto wrecker... > Solenoid contacts are the likely culprits. Could also be a bad bearing in the > starter motor itself - when hot, parts stick as metal expands, you'd probably > hear a typical bad-bearing grinding/whining sound when it does crank over - or > bad brushes on the starter motor. I'm fairly sure it's just the contacts. I might even see if I can clean them up and get a few more miles out of it before it totally goes south. I'm fairly sure the motor is fine. The temp has no bearing on whether it does it or not. It can do it cold or hot. When it does work right, it sounds normal. And that can be either hot or cold. > > I don't know why the auto parts stores, or even the dealer > > can't stock just the solenoid. It's all about $$$. > > They want to sell you a new or rebuilt starter. > > Could always get a used one from an auto wrecker... Yea, I but hate putting used electrical parts on. I guess it's an option to avoid buying a whole new starter, but it's not one I'm crazy about. I'm sure it would probably be half wore out unless maybe I got one that was fairly new. But.. I sure to hate to replace a perfectly good starter.. I'll probably have to deal with it pretty soon. I can still get it started every time, but it's gonna get worse, and one day my luck is going to run out. Of course, Ruprects law dictates that this must happen at the worst possible time. IE: half way across town in a driving rain storm with no auto parts open, being Ruprect always prefers to strike at night.. :/ MK Whew! I am glad to see so many contributions in trying to sort out this problem. I have a rebuilt start on order and I will inform everyone of the outcome. Here is a summary of the problem, thus far, starting with turn of the key: Symptom 1) Turn key (All the while ensuring both steering wheel and AT shift are in normal positions). 2) In Position 1 (Between O and start) - I hear the Main Relay in action ~2 seconds. This means fuel is being delivered. 3) In Position Start - Nothing. No crank. No turning over. Just dead silence. Identical to a very dead battery, except my lights could still be powered on. 4) I would try this over and over again. Some times within 3-10 turns, I would get the thing started. There have been two occasions where it sat dead in my driveway for hours. Changes to this point 1) Replaced battery. 2) Replaced ignition switch, which is attached to and activated by the key. My course of action 1) Replace starter. 2) Replace ignition coil assembly and probably the entire distributor assembly (While I'm at it). This is absolute last resort, as it costs major $$$. Anything I've missed? > Whew! I am glad to see so many contributions in trying to sort out > this problem. I have a rebuilt start on order and I will inform [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > My course of action > 1) Replace starter. > 2) Replace ignition coil assembly and probably the entire distributor > assembly (While I'm at it). This is absolute last resort, as it costs > major $$$. ???????????????? > > Anything I've missed? Why change the coil and distributor? Has nothing to do with your problem. You are better off diagnosing the problem, rather than throwing money at it helter skelter. Say fer instance your first problem was as described. Random starting. The first thing to do would be to test the solenoid. You can do that by unhooking the normal wire from terminal S and running a jumper with 12v to the S terminal, and see if it cranks. If it failed to start, the solenoid or starter is bad. If it did start and sound normal, you have a bad switch somewhere in the line. You could also have a voltmeter connected to the S terminal, and just watch it from the drivers seat to see if it's the switch, or solenoid. If you read 12v every time you turn the key, the solenoid is bad. Or starter.. Most likely the starter will fix the problem, but I would have tested for voltage to the solenoid before I coughed up any dough. Could be a toasted wire or connection. Probably not in this case, but you never know.. You shouldn't guess when working on a machine, unless you have no choice. If you diagnose the problem, you only buy the needed part, not half the electrical system. Save a lot of time too.. You might wanna invest in a cheap VOM if you don't have one. They sell decent digi versions pretty cheap these days. MK > Whew! I am glad to see so many contributions in trying to sort out > this problem. I have a rebuilt start on order and I will inform [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Anything I've missed? Actually, yes: since you have an automatic, it may be the shift interlock (my Hondas have all been standard, so I didn't think of that initially). I don't know about Hondas, but I've seen it fairly often in Dodges, where that switch gets flaky, either electrically or mechanically. In our '96 Caravan, the selector sometimes doesn't quite slip into the Park position (the tranny itself does, it's just the part in the column that displays the gear selected and triggers the interlock) and it won't start unless I put it in Neutral, or sometimes slip the shifter down to a lower gear and slam it back into Park. Since the interlock is typically in the wire between the key and the solenoid, a flaky one will cause the complete lack of response you describe. Next time it doesn't start, try putting the shifter in Neutral and then crank it. The coil and distributor have NO relation at all to the starter; replacing them won't hurt, but it won't solve this problem. On 11/24/06 9:36 PM, in article 1164425817.660599.168690@14g2000cws.googlegroups.com, "Challenged" <ubdumass@yahoo.com> wrote: > 95 Integra LS (92K mi) - New battery, New ignition switch (Key > cylinder), Verified working main relay and fuel pump. > > A few times a week, there is dead silence when I turn the key. I would > do this a few times and sometimes on the 3rd - 10th try, the car would > start, sometimes not. Any ideas on where to start? What do you mean "new ignition switch (key cylinder)"? Did you replace the actual switch or just the key cylinder? If just the key cylinder, I would say you probably replaced the wrong part. Check the switch. E Meyer, I replaced the switch, not the cylinder. I made the notation to avoid confusion, as there are many parts that start with the word "ignition". Thanks. >95 Integra LS (92K mi) - New battery, New ignition switch (Key >cylinder), Verified working main relay and fuel pump. > >A few times a week, there is dead silence when I turn the key. I would >do this a few times and sometimes on the 3rd - 10th try, the car would >start, sometimes not. Any ideas on where to start? This has also happened to my freind. The problem is a simple little thing called a starter clutch/sylonide. It engages the starter gear with the flywheel which then turns the motor over. Poofy
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