Car Forum / Honda Cars / December 2006
94 Accord - tires?
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Peabody - 14 Dec 2006 23:25 GMT I have a whopping 54K miles on my 94 Accord LX, and it's finally time to change the tires. And by the way, isn't 54K miles reasonably good for original equipment tires? They are Michelin XGT 4, and have treadwear rating of 320.
I've been to one store which carries mainly Bridgestone, Firestone and Dayton, with some Michelin and Yokohama. The guy there recommmends:
Bridgestone UNI-T Insignia SE200 WS $85.63 each installed. Yoko Avid T4 S308 BL $84.50 each installed
Those prices include $9.15/$9.00 road hazard, which I may decline.
I go pretty easy on my car. About 90% of the miles are city driving. I don't know how much longer I'll own the car, but it will probably be quite a while - it's just barely broken in.
I'm in Oklahoma, and we get occasional ice and snow, but not enough for that to be a major factor in this decision. It looks like anything I get will have better treadwear than what I have now. I think the main thing is just how the tires feel in everyday driving. Ideally, I guess I shouldn't really notice them.
The Michelins have done ok for me. The only downside I've really noticed is road noise on the highway, but I'm not on the highway enough for that to be a major factor, and in any case, I'm not sure that's the fault of the tires.
I was hoping to find something a little less expensive than the recommended tires. Actually, the pricing is just like cellphones. The Yokos, for example, cost $60 each, but the addons bring it up to $75.50 without the road hazard, and before sales tax.
I would appreciate any comments on the recommended tires. And if anyone has other suggestions for relatively inexpensive, moderate-performance tires that I should look at, please post your ideas.
High Tech Misfit - 15 Dec 2006 06:16 GMT > Bridgestone UNI-T Insignia SE200 WS $85.63 each installed. These came with my '04 Civic when I bought the car 2 months ago (the tires were brand new, replacing the original Firestones). They're average at best, and likely not a long lasting tire. I currently have my Toyo Observe G-02 Plus winter tires on it now, but maybe in a year or two, I will ditch the Insignia's for something better, perhaps Falken Ziex 512's.
For your Accord, I would consider the Toyo Spectrum or the Bridgestone Turanza LS-T.
Peabody - 15 Dec 2006 23:03 GMT High Tech Misfit says...
> For your Accord, I would consider the Toyo Spectrum or > the Bridgestone Turanza LS-T. I'm somewhat limited in the choice of tires I can buy locally. I haven't run across the Turanza yet, but have found the Toyo Spectrum on sale (at Hesselbein) for $65 before tax, including mounting, balancing and even a brand new air valve. :-) And they even throw in road hazard at that price.
I didn't find anything on Toyo on Tirerack, but found a number of Spectrum reviews on 1010tires, and was amazed at the variation I found there. Some said it worked great in light snow, but others said it was terrible. Some said it handled well and was very quiet, while others said it "wandered", didn't center well, or was the noisiest tire they'd ever owned. It's really hard to know what to conclude from that. The reviews were just all over the map, from "great" to "awful".
The OE tires on my car are Michelin XGT-4's, which were 87S, 320AB. Is there any way to know how the Spectrums would compare with those with respect to ride, handling, noise, and mileage?
Anyway do the Spectrums seem to work well for Accord owners?
slim - 24 Dec 2006 01:30 GMT >> Bridgestone UNI-T Insignia SE200 WS $85.63 each installed. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > For your Accord, I would consider the Toyo Spectrum or the Bridgestone > Turanza LS-T. Most of my driving is in and around NYC. I had a set of Toyo Spectrum's on my 96 Civic coupe for 37K miles. I loved them, a very good all-around tire. I now have Pirelli 400's and after 7500 miles, I think they are as good as the Toyo's...but we have not gotten snow here, so the jury is still out.
 Signature - Slim
ACAR - 15 Dec 2006 13:08 GMT > I have a whopping 54K miles on my 94 Accord LX, and it's finally > time to change the tires. Check out the web site www.tirerack.com and refer to their survey results. These are comprised of customer ratings and are very accurate so long as the "Total Miles Reported" column has a substantial number (anything over 250,000).
Once the Tire Rack's system knows what size tire your car requires you can find your way to their "Consumer Survey Results by Category." The tires that fit your car will be highlighted and you will be able to see how they stack up against other similar tires. Your easy driving style allows you to concentrate on the Passenger All-Season, Standard Touring All-Season and Grand Touring All-Season categories.
With that information you should be able to make an educated decision at your local tire shop.
(FWIW: I have an older car that is used for in-town shopping/commuting. Based on low cost I put Kumho (Touring Plus 732) tires on the car and have been entirely satisfied with their performance.)
jim beam - 15 Dec 2006 15:05 GMT >> I have a whopping 54K miles on my 94 Accord LX, and it's finally >> time to change the tires. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > so long as the "Total Miles Reported" column has a substantial number > (anything over 250,000). i disagree.
1. their selection is limited and has notable omissions like toyo. to me, that looks like the "pay to play" that may super markets exercise with shelf space. 2. their ratings are afaict, /not/ based on customer feedback, although they sure do seem to want you to believe that.
example 1: i bought a set of michelin hydro-edges a few years back. impeccable ratings all across the board, including ride comfort. but ride comfort was /not/ a feature of their ride. not in a civic anyway. in fact, they were so brain-jarringly rough, i had to change them out again after less than 1000 miles because of passenger complaints. [not that i needed much persuasion they were so bad.]
example 2: in civic tires, dunlop sport sp2 a+ tires score "7.9" for tire rack wet traction, yet have a utqg rating of "aa". michelin pilot exaltos have a tire rack rating of 9.0 wet, and utqg of only "a", which is entirely inconsistent. declaration: i am running these dunlops right now and can vouch for exemplary traction in line with utqg.
example 3: my previous tires were continental ch95's. they scored "excellent" across the board with notable exception for tire wear. after nearly 40k miles, mine still had 40-50% tread life remaining. they're also rated 6.6 "excellent" for wet traction, but are frankly, more likely to send you into the barrier in the wet than any other tire i've ever driven. fine when new, but abysmal when slightly worn.
example 4: the photos used are photoshopped. this may sound trivial, but the little rubber "hair" things that a lot of tires have are studiously removed on tire rack pics. that concerns me because one of the ways you can tell between a silica rubber compound and a carbon rubber compound is presence of the "hairs" - carbon generally has them, silica generally doesn't. personally, that has a significant impact on my buying preferences, but tire rack's "evidence" is misleading in that regard.
conclusion: tire rack's rating is based on some subjective system they've come up with in-house. it's a system that's wide open to "pay for play", and based on my experience, one that's fully exploited by tire manufacturers.
ACAR - 16 Dec 2006 02:38 GMT > >> I have a whopping 54K miles on my 94 Accord LX, and it's finally > >> time to change the tires. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > me, that looks like the "pay to play" that may super markets exercise > with shelf space. I didn't claim the Tire Rack's list was comprehensive.
> 2. their ratings are afaict, /not/ based on customer feedback, although > they sure do seem to want you to believe that. In my experience, their ratings are quite accurate. I've purchased a LOT more sets of tires than you using their ratings. However, I also read the customer comments which frequently indicate different experiences depending upon vehicle weight and driving style.
snip
> conclusion: tire rack's rating is based on some subjective system > they've come up with in-house. it's a system that's wide open to "pay > for play", and based on my experience, one that's fully exploited by > tire manufacturers. So the tire manufacturers bribe The Tire Rack to put up phony ratings and customer comments? What, you think they don't make enough $$ from the tires? Imagine the legal exposure from a single irate former employee.
jim beam - 16 Dec 2006 23:42 GMT <snip>
> So the tire manufacturers bribe The Tire Rack to put up phony ratings > and customer comments? it's "pay for play". you witness this every time you walk into a supermarket. ever wondered why there's so much more shelf space for a certain shampoo or a certain beer than all the others?
> What, you think they don't make enough $$ from > the tires? do supermarket's not make money from sales too?
> Imagine the legal exposure from a single irate former > employee. what legal exposure? it's not customer ratings. they can set any rank by any criteria they want, just like a supermarket can allocate shelf space however they want. as for customer comments, i've been approached by a manufacturer on a different forum to post reviews if a certain product - provided my review agreed with what they wanted of course. similarly, past employers of mine have published research and have "weighted" results to assist sales. no legal recourse whatsoever. i have no grounds for belief that this situation is any different.
ACAR - 18 Dec 2006 02:41 GMT > it's "pay for play". you witness this every time you walk into a > supermarket. ever wondered why there's so much more shelf space for a > certain shampoo or a certain beer than all the others? It seems to bother you that a company can pay for shelf space. Why?
> what legal exposure? it's not customer ratings. Off The Tire Rack's web page explaining Consumer Survey: "In addition to The Tire Rack team's new tire tests, we have maintained an independent consumer survey to help drivers help each other by sharing their long term tire experiences."
That sounds like "customer rating" to me.
jim beam - 18 Dec 2006 03:50 GMT >> it's "pay for play". you witness this every time you walk into a >> supermarket. ever wondered why there's so much more shelf space for a >> certain shampoo or a certain beer than all the others? > > It seems to bother you that a company can pay for shelf space. Why? shelf space doesn't bother me. telling me that one thing performs better than another in the absence of real data bothers me.
the difference is, there's no published science to these ratings - it's all subjective. therefore, product can easily be ranked any way they like, including manufacturer incentive.
>> what legal exposure? it's not customer ratings. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > That sounds like "customer rating" to me. read that wording again. they do their own rating. then they say they have customer feedback. there's no declaration of acceptance of customer feedback that does not agree with their ranking.
you've got to be very careful when trying to interpret this kind of marketingspeak. example: mobil say "The world's leading synthetic motor oil, it features a proprietary SuperSyn anti-wear technology that provides performance beyond conventional motor oils." [further reading is at http://mobil1.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_FAQs.aspx#FAQs1]
given that "supersyn" is poly alpha-olefin [pao], would you assume that this "synthetic motor oil" is /based/ on pao or merely /contains/ pao? have you any way of telling what the relevant proportions might be? i ask because i happen to know the answer and am interested in the answer you give based on reading the above.
ACAR - 18 Dec 2006 18:46 GMT > given that "supersyn" is poly alpha-olefin [pao], would you assume that > this "synthetic motor oil" is /based/ on pao or merely /contains/ pao? > have you any way of telling what the relevant proportions might be? i > ask because i happen to know the answer and am interested in the answer > you give based on reading the above. Do you know this answer in the same manner that you know The Tire Rack's ratings are manufacturer incentive driven? (Can you find PAO % on any manufacturer's web site?)
Since you claim the survey results are incentive driven, please point out the "pay for play" pattern in the survey results scores.
jim beam - 19 Dec 2006 04:41 GMT >> given that "supersyn" is poly alpha-olefin [pao], would you assume that >> this "synthetic motor oil" is /based/ on pao or merely /contains/ pao? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Do you know this answer in the same manner that you know The Tire > Rack's ratings are manufacturer incentive driven? i know from reading the site that rankings are subjective and that this is a business, which like many others i know from personal experience, are "open" to "sales enhancement".
> (Can you find PAO % > on any manufacturer's web site?) they don't publish it directly to the web, but they publish that info for public record and i /can/ cite a copy of that.
> Since you claim the survey results are incentive driven, please point > out the "pay for play" pattern in the survey results scores. dude, i'm not trying to catch you out - i'm trying to illustrate that there is a difference between what the marketingspeak tries to imply and what it actually says. it takes scores of lawyers carefully craft wording so that while it's technically accurate, it's still sending a message easily misunderstood to mean something much different.
so, i ask again, from reading the marketingspeak, what composition do you think that oil has?
ACAR - 19 Dec 2006 22:07 GMT > i know from reading the site that rankings are subjective Yes, we all know this.
and that this
> is a business, which like many others i know from personal experience, > are "open" to "sales enhancement". i.e., you have no proof.
> > (Can you find PAO % > > on any manufacturer's web site?) > > they don't publish it directly to the web, but they publish that info > for public record and i /can/ cite a copy of that. super. not pertinent to the current discussion re. tires but something many folks would like to see. why not post it to the newsgroup under a new topic that someone besides you and me will read...
> > Since you claim the survey results are incentive driven, please point > > out the "pay for play" pattern in the survey results scores. > > dude, i'm not trying to catch you out obviously, because you can't make a case via the survey results scores.
- i'm trying to illustrate that
> there is a difference between what the marketingspeak tries to imply and > what it actually says. and I'm trying to point out that other than The Tire Rack not posting data for tires they don't sell, you can't prove your point that the consumer survey ratings are somehow influenced by the various tire manufacturers.
jim beam - 20 Dec 2006 01:44 GMT >> i know from reading the site that rankings are subjective > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > i.e., you have no proof. with respect, i think i have more experience in this kind of thing than you.
>>> (Can you find PAO % >>> on any manufacturer's web site?) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > many folks would like to see. why not post it to the newsgroup under a > new topic that someone besides you and me will read... with respect, i don't think you read my last post. simply put, the question is, "what facts can you learn from a marketing piece". i have a fact i can share that illustrates the point, but you're not addressing that.
>>> Since you claim the survey results are incentive driven, please point >>> out the "pay for play" pattern in the survey results scores. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > consumer survey ratings are somehow influenced by the various tire > manufacturers. if you address the point above, maybe i can illustrate by example?
ACAR - 20 Dec 2006 12:29 GMT > > and that this > >> is a business, which like many others i know from personal experience, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > with respect, i think i have more experience in this kind of thing than you. I'm not doubting your experience. I'm doubting your ability to draw a definitive conclusion without proof. What you have is conjecture.
> if you address the point above, maybe i can illustrate by example? Sure, I'll play. The information contained at the Mobil 1 web site provides zero information re. % PAO in any of their products. Given the 1999(?) court ruling re. what constitutes a synthetic motor oil, it would not surprise me to learn that the amount is now zero. If, as you say, their Super Syn is PAO, I suppose their oil contains some amount given the Super Syn label on the package. Of course, the web site does not state that Super Syn = PAO, I have only your word on that.
jim beam - 20 Dec 2006 16:23 GMT >>> and that this >>>> is a business, which like many others i know from personal experience, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I'm not doubting your experience. I'm doubting your ability to draw a > definitive conclusion without proof. What you have is conjecture. dude, what do you want me to do to spell this out more clearly for you? i have direct personal experience of companies fudging results in order to affect sales. and i have direct personal experience of that in several companies in several industries. it is par for the course absent some form of legal consequence, and here there is none. now /you/ go ahead and show why, for some apparently altruistic reason, this would be an exception.
>> if you address the point above, maybe i can illustrate by example? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Super Syn label on the package. Of course, the web site does not state > that Super Syn = PAO, I have only your word on that. very good. that's not what i asked since you introduced the castrol vs. mobil council of better business bureaus ruling, but you got the position right. but i doubt most people would infer what you say from reading only the mobil web site, what i'd asked.
http://msds.ogden.disa.mil/msds/owa/web_msds.display?imsdsnr=194095
ACAR - 20 Dec 2006 19:22 GMT > dude, what do you want me to do to spell this out more clearly for you? > i have direct personal experience of companies fudging results in > order to affect sales. Yeah, well I worked for a company engaged in a similar practice many years ago.
and i have direct personal experience of that in
> several companies in several industries. it is par for the course > absent some form of legal consequence, and here there is none. now > /you/ go ahead and show why, for some apparently altruistic reason, this > would be an exception. Your assumption is that the company is attempting to push a particular product. What if the business model does not rely upon any single product but volume sales? These guys are into moving units. The particular unit is less important than sheer numbers.
Does The Tire Rack attempt to get buyers into higher-priced, more profitable tires? Yes. They do that by using tire categories with catchy names like "high performance" and by listing tire search results by tire category, not price, by default. When you speak with a sales rep. they will always push the latest, greatest and most profitable.
On the other hand, their user comments are not edited. I have submitted comments intentionally recommending tires not sold by The Tire Rack and those comments appear just as I wrote them. Their rating tables by category show all the manufacturers represented on the site in the top 10 on one or another of the categories. Bias, other than to the brands sold by The Tire Rack, is not in evidence. Individual tire ratings do not suddenly change. The number of written comments closely matches the claimed number of customer ratings. Simply put, for a business model based on volume, its not worth their time to mess with these data. Furthermore, for a volme-based business, bad press is a killer. Should someone reveal that the consumer data has been falsified, the bad press would kill their internet-based sales.
Risks outweigh rewards. Let the consumers have their fun. In the end, it means more internet traffic and greater sales volume.
> very good. that's not what i asked since you introduced the castrol vs. > mobil council of better business bureaus ruling, but you got the > position right. but i doubt most people would infer what you say from > reading only the mobil web site, what i'd asked. I think you're selling most people short. I think most people figure if there was a good story to tell (lots of good stuff in the product) the manufacturer would be happy to tell you all about it. No data = no good story.
> http://msds.ogden.disa.mil/msds/owa/web_msds.display?imsdsnr=194095 just how long should I wait for a response from this place? if you already have this data, why not just post it in a new topic? I'm sure others would be interested.
jim beam - 21 Dec 2006 13:37 GMT >> dude, what do you want me to do to spell this out more clearly for you? >> i have direct personal experience of companies fudging results in [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > someone reveal that the consumer data has been falsified, the bad press > would kill their internet-based sales. how is anyone ever going to find out? back-dating stock options was rife for decades, despite the thousands of people involved, auditors, lawyers, etc. but no one "found out" until an academic started doing analysis based on logic, not the "accepted truth". it's naked emperor syndrome writ large.
> Risks outweigh rewards. Let the consumers have their fun. In the end, > it means more internet traffic and greater sales volume. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > if you already have this data, why not just post it in a new topic? I'm > sure others would be interested. ACAR - 22 Dec 2006 12:06 GMT > how is anyone ever going to find out? back-dating stock options was > rife for decades, despite the thousands of people involved, auditors, > lawyers, etc. but no one "found out" until an academic started doing > analysis based on logic, not the "accepted truth". it's naked emperor > syndrome writ large. But if the consumer were to find out, their core business model is toast. Murphy's Law.
Smackdown! Naked emperor syndrome vs. Murphy's Law - film at 11
jim beam - 22 Dec 2006 15:05 GMT >> how is anyone ever going to find out? back-dating stock options was >> rife for decades, despite the thousands of people involved, auditors, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Naked emperor syndrome vs. Murphy's Law > - film at 11 well, some consumers stay away when they lose confidence, but not all. after all, you want to retire, right? what do you do with your retirement savings? most people have some exposure to the stock market regardless. they may adjust the extent of that exposure, and weight in companies they feel safest, but they pretty much have to be in, whether it's directly or indirectly.
ACAR - 22 Dec 2006 16:47 GMT > well, some consumers stay away when they lose confidence, but not all. no risk there...
> after all, you want to retire, right? what do you do with your > retirement savings? most people have some exposure to the stock market > regardless. they may adjust the extent of that exposure, and weight in > companies they feel safest, but they pretty much have to be in, whether > it's directly or indirectly. kinda hard to spin up another NYSE competitive online tire stores already exist
ACAR - 21 Dec 2006 12:29 GMT > http://msds.ogden.disa.mil/msds/owa/web_msds.display?imsdsnr=194095 finally got into this server and if I'm reading it correctly it says that Mobil 1 10-30 contains 5% PAO. But I don't see a date associated with the spec.
Apparently, lots of info. type sites now reference the MSDS info., for example http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Synthetic_oil
The information re. Amsoil is also interesting.
jim beam - 21 Dec 2006 13:40 GMT >> http://msds.ogden.disa.mil/msds/owa/web_msds.display?imsdsnr=194095 > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > example > http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Synthetic_oil that site's a word-for-word rip from wikipedia!
> The information re. Amsoil is also interesting. indeed. [i provided the msds references to the wikipedia entry.] what interests me more is what the msds's /don't/ contain and how reluctant manufacturers are to reveal. [so much so in fact that the msds link i provided to wikipedia "disappeared" for mobil, with the redline and amsoil entries remaining! that's since been reverted.] as pointed out before on this group, they're not keeping secrets from other manufacturers - lab analysis ensures they know what their competitors use - they're scared silly about consumers having information though. if you go to amsoil's own msds's, all content is "proprietary" and they just give a medical emergency phone number. to my way of thinking, if they had something special worth talking about, they'd talk about it. like dupont with kevlar for instance.
ACAR - 21 Dec 2006 15:47 GMT > > Apparently, lots of info. type sites now reference the MSDS info., for > > example > > http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Synthetic_oil > > that site's a word-for-word rip from wikipedia! they're not trying to hide that connection
> > The information re. Amsoil is also interesting. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > provided to wikipedia "disappeared" for mobil, with the redline and > amsoil entries remaining! that's since been reverted.] Yeah, I did notice that.
as pointed out
> before on this group, they're not keeping secrets from other > manufacturers - lab analysis ensures they know what their competitors > use - they're scared silly about consumers having information though. I also found, at a Chevron site, the cost differential between PAO and Group III+; their published estimate $1.50-$2.00/gallon (http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/BaseOils/pdf/0701c.pdf). Yup, Mobil 1 could be PAO based for the cost of about $3 per 5-quart jug. You'd think someone in their marketing dept would figure that buyers sophisticated enough to have made Mobil 1 a hit when it cost 3 times as much as other oils would be happy to spend the extra $3/jug for a PAO product.
jim beam - 21 Dec 2006 17:42 GMT >>> Apparently, lots of info. type sites now reference the MSDS info., for >>> example [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > much as other oils would be happy to spend the extra $3/jug for a PAO > product. well detected - that's a great find. but i'm not 100% sure the author has the full story - he says that m1 is still pao, but the msds contradicts that - i have to go with the msds rather than the market analyst.
interesting comment on cost. you're right, that's not much difference to differentiate a "boutique" product. doubtless someone has done the math on what price the market will bear for a true branded labeled pao vs. groupIII, and has concluded that the incremental profit on gIII is just too irresistible. and is doubtless producing a handsome bonus for the line manager responsible! hence we have secrecy to keep the consumer in the dark.
ACAR - 22 Dec 2006 11:59 GMT > i'm not 100% sure the author > has the full story - he says that m1 is still pao, note 2001 date on article
but the msds
> contradicts that - i have to go with the msds rather than the market > analyst. I'm sure the more recent msds is correct.
The article offers hope re. return of PAO. Competition will force down the price of "synthetic" oils (I've got a coupon from Pep Boys for $15 off on a case of Pennzoil or Quaker State). Once that happens it will be easier to put PAO back into M1 and market accordingly. Well, maybe.
jim beam - 22 Dec 2006 15:12 GMT >> i'm not 100% sure the author >> has the full story - he says that m1 is still pao, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > off on a case of Pennzoil or Quaker State). Once that happens it will > be easier to put PAO back into M1 and market accordingly. Well, maybe. an after-word on that: i wrote part of that wiki article, and keep an eye on it from time to time. it's been interesting how persistent is the problem of keeping that msds info up there. i can't say for sure that it's manufacturers directly doing the removal, but it's remarkable coincidence that it's only the mobil and amsoil links that seem to disappear - with amusing regularity. i predict that the msds info itself will disappear next.
George - 16 Dec 2006 17:30 GMT > I have a whopping 54K miles on my 94 Accord LX, and it's finally > time to change the tires. And by the way, isn't 54K miles > reasonably good for original equipment tires? They are Michelin XGT > 4, and have treadwear rating of 320. About 1.5 years ago I put a set of Michelin Pilot Exalto A/S tires on my 95 VTEC Del Sol. For my needs, they are the best tire I've even had on that car and possibly the best tire I recall having on any car.
I can't speak much to road noise because the car in general is pretty noisy on the highway and I rarely take it out of town anyway. But it's dry traction is good and wet traction as well... I can blow through deep puddles without feeling like my car is going to get yanked off the road. I am in TN and like you snow is so rare as to not even be a factor.
I also can't speak to mileage yet because I have a really short drive to work and so don't accumulate miles fast enough to know yet.
> Yoko Avid T4 S308 BL $84.50 each installed I previously had some Yoko Avids of some model on the same car and they just beat me nearly to death. Just hard as rocks and not very good in the wet.
> Those prices include $9.15/$9.00 road hazard, which I may decline. I can't now recall what I paid for them. They weren't cheap but also not really pricey either... may have been in the $60-80 range each. I bought them through NTB locally but they were not stock items so I had to get them to order them for me. (took less than a work week)
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