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Car Forum / Honda Cars / January 2007Correcting negative caster on 97 Accord
For almost a year, I have been experiencing handling/ride problems with my 97 Accord (200K miles) After new tires (Michelin Pilot Exaltos), new struts and multiple alignments, the problem still persisted. I experience the following symptoms. * little on-center feel * suspension feels loose * steering feels disconnected from the wheels * handling is unstable at freeway speeds * car wallows at freeway speeds * steering gets tripped up by road irregularities and bumps at all speeds * car veers side to side on grooved pavement. (tires basically lock into grooves) * crosswinds cause quite a bit of side to side movement at high speeds. I think I may have finally figured out the problem. I brought the car to a local alignment shop, which told me that they can only adjust toe. Apparently camber and caster can not be adjusted (forget if this is a limitation of the car or only certain alignment shops) The alignment machine they had it on showed a significant negative caster which is known to cause these type of symptoms. I believe the machine showed the factory specs are 2.8, with my car registering 1.08 In summary, I would like to know if indeed front caster is adjustable on 94-97 Honda Accords. If not, can I correct a negative caster by replacing bushings and other worn suspension components? This handling issue is driving me nuts and only seems to be getting worse. Even at 200K, my Accord runs great and I want to keep it in top shape Thanks > For almost a year, I have been experiencing handling/ride problems with > my 97 Accord (200K miles) [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Even at 200K, my Accord runs great and I want to keep it in top shape > Thanks first things first - you don't have negative caster, you have reduced caster. to answer your direct question, no, caster is not adjustable - you need to have the frame straightened to fix it. finally, the chances of this being the sole cause of your handling problems are slim. by the symptoms you describe, you have wear in some of your suspension componentry. front upper wishbone pivots are prime candidates. they're seldom diagnosed properly because if the car is up on the stand and the wheel off, the suspension is out of its normal range of motion and the pivot is tight. on the road however, it's in its normal position of maximum wear and that top joint is free to slop about and causes all kinds of mischief. once all that stuff is sorted out, you'll probably find the reduced caster to be be quite acceptable - it only really affects the "return to center" action. regarding wallowing, are your replacement shocks oem honda? if not, go back to oem. if you can't afford those, go kyb. monroe and suchlike are to be avoided. On 1/6/07 2:50 AM, in article 1168073425.353568.51950@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com, > For almost a year, I have been experiencing handling/ride problems with > my 97 Accord (200K miles) [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Even at 200K, my Accord runs great and I want to keep it in top shape > Thanks The factory approved method is to replace parts until its in spec. In practice, there might be a kit you can buy that will move things enough to fix it. Failing that, take it to a frame/alignment shop (the people who straighten car frames after accidents). They will have the equipment to bend it back into spec. I had an earlier Accord that had this same problem when I bought it. Besides the handling issues, it ate tires at a rapid rate. None of the chain tire and alignment shops could do anything with it (except take my money). I had previously discovered the frame shop on a referral from the Ford dealer when I had a Ford Bronco with the twin I-beam front end that had to be aligned by bending the i-beam. They found the right front wheel was pushed back slightly, probably due to repeated parking incidents with curbs or parking lot stoppers. This is apparently a common problem with these cars as they age. They fixed it for under $100 and the car was fine from then on. If you are near Dallas, I can recommend a place. > For almost a year, I have been experiencing handling/ride problems with > my 97 Accord (200K miles) [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > * crosswinds cause quite a bit of side to side movement at high > speeds. I'd agree with jim beam's advice that this sounds like wear in one or more suspension components more than a caster issue. I'd also have the tie rods and sway bar bushings looked at. My 90 CRX was exhibiting many of the same symptoms you describe, particularly the instability and "wallowing" at higher speeds, and replacing the (very worn/cracked) tie rods/front sway bar bushings improved matters considerably. Dave >For almost a year, I have been experiencing handling/ride problems with >my 97 Accord (200K miles) [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > * crosswinds cause quite a bit of side to side movement at high >speeds. Everything you describe are classic symptoms of over-inflated front tires. Aggravated if rear are under-inflated. Find the sticker in the car and try the tires at Honda's recommended inflation. What's printed on the side of the tire is NOT a recommendation regardless what those people who don't read the rest of the statement on the tire --"consult placard in vehicle" -- may tell you. Simle things first! If that doesn't help go on the search for loose parts. 1 degree of caster is not going to make or break handling. Don www.donsautomotive.com >What's printed on the side of the tire is NOT a recommendation regardless > what those people who don't read the rest of the statement on the tire What is on the side of the tire is the MAX pressure at MAX load. Read it. Recommended pressures these days seem to be 30-35 psi. Many cars have 24-28 psi in their manuals to make a compliant ride. -SP >> What's printed on the side of the tire is NOT a recommendation regardless >> what those people who don't read the rest of the statement on the tire [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > -SP dude, use the pressure in the manual - don't monkey about with guesswork or "what the tire guy says". honda engineers know a good deal more about the handling dynamics of their vehicles than the average rubber slinger. >>> What's printed on the side of the tire is NOT a recommendation regardless >>> what those people who don't read the rest of the statement on the tire [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > about the handling dynamics of their vehicles than the average rubber > slinger. That's one of my biggest pet peeves with Fast-Lube and tire places these days... The recommended pressures are right on the inside of the door. What makes it so damned hard to follow them? Every time I have an oil change done, I have to re-check all of the tires to make sure they are not over-filled. >>What's printed on the side of the tire is NOT a recommendation regardless >> what those people who don't read the rest of the statement on the tire >What is on the side of the tire is the MAX pressure at MAX load. Read it. >Recommended pressures these days seem to be 30-35 psi. Many cars have >24-28 psi in their manuals to make a compliant ride. They have 24-28 in their manuals to avoid overinflation wear. Tire shops tend to inflate every single tire to 32-35 psi so that they don't have to bother with checking the manufacturer recomended pressure. If the tires wear out faster, so much the better. Keep in mind that it is *volume* that matters in having the tire of the proper shape and to avoid over/underinflation wear. A car with more weight will require greater pressure to achieve the same volume and, of course, a car with less than the tire's maximum rated load will require less pressure. Tire shops ignore this. >>> What's printed on the side of the tire is NOT a recommendation regardless >>> what those people who don't read the rest of the statement on the tire [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > car with less than the tire's maximum rated load will require less pressure. > Tire shops ignore this. I just got a set of Michelins. Toyota says 30psi, the tire dealer put in 32. He said that the manufacturer's recommendation was to provide a cushier ride, and that 32psi would give better wear. Hmmm... What do you think of the chalk-line-on-the-tread method of determining ideal pressure? BC pressured BCDrums -- > I just got a set of Michelins. Toyota says 30psi, the tire dealer put in > 32. He said that the manufacturer's recommendation was to provide a > cushier ride, and that 32psi would give better wear. Hmmm... > What do you think of the chalk-line-on-the-tread method of determining > ideal pressure? Not a lot. The only thing it'll show is that when rolling a short distance straight, different parts of the thread have more or less contact with the road. No relation to what happens at speed, during braking or in corners. Whenever I get a new set of tires on a car, I take half an hour to play: starting with the manufacturer recommendation, then going up a bit, and down a bit, front as well as rear. After every change a quick test ride to check - you'll quickly find how much change is noticeable and what it does. Playing around a bit (while never going too far from manufacturer recommendation and thoroughly ignoring tire dealer input) helps find your best compromise of ride and roadholding. cu .\\arc > BCDrums -- > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > cu > .\\arc FWIW, I gave up playing around a while ago. Now I use a tire tread depth gauge ($2 or $3 at any auto parts store) to help me figure out the highest pressure (for max. mpg) consistent with even wear across each tire. I measure the tread every 5,000 mi. or so at three places on each tire (inside, middle, outside) and adjust pressure accordingly. I've been doing this for about 20 years and have to say the resulting tire pressure is NEVER the OEM's suggested value. My tires are from 4 to 8 psi above (but never exceeding the max. inflation value provided on the sidewall) the car's suggested pressure. The actual value will vary with tire brand/type, driving style and ride characteristics. YMMV On 1/8/07 5:34 PM, in article 1168299297.656752.190290@38g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "ACAR" <getoutanpush@yahoo.com> wrote: >> BCDrums -- >> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > YMMV I have been doing exactly the same thing for about 15 years. I check it every 5,000 miles when rotating the tires. My gauge was a freebee from a Michelin dealer 20 years ago. The right answer to get even wear on the tires is always 4 to 7 pounds more than the door sticker. The handling characteristics of the cars usually improves vs. running them at the door sticker number as well. Except for the '91 240sx (a fairly light car), the right answer has generally turned out to be 33-35 PSI. 31 does it on the 240sx. > On 1/8/07 5:34 PM, in article > 1168299297.656752.190290@38g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "ACAR" [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > right answer has generally turned out to be 33-35 PSI. 31 does it on the > 240sx. but all this assumes tire wear is unaffected by suspension dynamics. it may "work" on old solid axle vehicles where camber and thrust angles are not constantly changing, but that's not the case with a 4-wheel independent, wishbone, deflection compensated honda. all these factors mean tire edges wear faster. that's why modern sport tires already have feathered tire edges. over-inflating to make tire wear "look" better is kind of not the point. > over-inflating to make tire wear "look" better is > kind of not the point. The tires don't look better, they wear longer and deliver better mpg under normal driving situations. Accords and Civics are not set up for high performance driving from the factory; they're commuter cars. >> over-inflating to make tire wear "look" better is >> kind of not the point. > > The tires don't look better, they wear longer and deliver better mpg > under normal driving situations. Accords and Civics are not set up for > high performance driving from the factory; they're commuter cars. regarding wear and mpg, with radial tires, that's not true like it used to be with bias ply. provided pressure is in the right range, rubber compound will have more effect on mpg than air pressure. regarding "commuter cars", sure, they're not "performance" vehicles from factory, but they sure do handle better than any other vehicles in their class from factory. or at least, the wishbone ones do. you sure they replaced strut's?? because it sounds like a bent strut or a tire pull..caster is not a tire wearing angle...but it is a pulling angle... to check to see if its a tire pulling switch right to left front tires good luck.... scrapper....  SignatureScrapper http://www.automotiveforums.com > They have 24-28 in their manuals to avoid overinflation wear. Tire shops > tend to inflate every single tire to 32-35 psi so that they don't have to [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > pressure. > Tire shops ignore this. A million years ago, when I hung out in my dad's tire store, I looked up tire pressure recommendations in a thick booklet produced by, I think, General Tire. Their pressure recommendations for a given tire for a given model of car were different from what the car manufacturer recommended. I never understood that written difference. In any event, 28 lbs per tire was the norm. |
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