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Car Forum / Honda Cars / March 2007Tegger replaces his alternator
Did I ever tell you aftermarket sucks? Through no fault of my own, I ended up with two aftermarket reman alternators (NAPA), both of which failed very quickly. This time I said screw the aftermarket warranty, bit the bullet and bought a genuine Honda reman. And this one I installed...myself. First time for this type of project. I can now say, with total confidence, that there is absolutely NO way of removing the alternator in the 1991 Integra without first removing the left driveshaft AND the alternator's lower bracket. As with my suspension repairs, I found my electric impact gun and my balljoint tool to be worth their weight in gold. With them, the job was a piece of cake. Without them I don't think the job would have been possible. The spindle nut is torqued to 134 ft lbs, and requires at least twice that to remove. The factory manual wants you to remove the damper fork entirely. I wonder why, as the entire driveshaft was easily removable through the fork without even removing the pinch bolt. Perhaps my (aftermarket) inner CV joints are smaller in diameter than the OEMs were. The patient is resting comfortably, as is the surgeon. Pics here: http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/alt_replacement/  SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ Now you know when I have posted in the past saying the alternator was a PITA to do. There was absolutely no need to place that component in that location, they should have been able to get it in front like the Accord of that year. I'm curious, were you able to get the spindle nut off with your impact gun? If so what's the model...I may invest in one. I had to use a torch to get mine off and that was after 3 tries! Nick >Did I ever tell you aftermarket sucks? > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >Pics here: >http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/alt_replacement/ > Now you know when I have posted in the past saying the alternator was > a PITA to do. There was absolutely no need to place that component in > that location, they should have been able to get it in front like the > Accord of that year. so where would you put the a/c and the power steering pump? > I'm curious, were you able to get the spindle nut > off with your impact gun? If so what's the model...I may invest in [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >> Pics here: >> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/alt_replacement/ They are both in the front and above on my 95 Accord with the alternator...the engineers could have done the same, might have needed to extend the vertical size of the car a few inches but there is definitely room. >so where would you put the a/c and the power steering pump? >> Now you know when I have posted in the past saying the alternator was >> a PITA to do. There was absolutely no need to place that component in [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >>> Pics here: >>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/alt_replacement/ I thought I would have to do the same in my 98 civic, ie remove driveshaft etc.... but I didn't. I simply got the alternator loose, then removed the 2 bolts on the alternator-engine block bracket, and it pretty much fell in my lap. Not so lucky on my wife's 87 prelude though.... with that one I had to remove the driver side upper motor mount to allow me to shift the engine over enough to make room to get the alternator out. Tegger, would this option have worked in your situation at all? t >Now you know when I have posted in the past saying the alternator was >a PITA to do. There was absolutely no need to place that component in [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >>Pics here: >>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/alt_replacement/ PS, I used an alternator from the wrecker... $90 and I spent $5 on brushes and $3 on new bearings before I put it in. The wrecker alternator had 118000 kms on it, the civic had 198000kms at the time. Now its at 271000kms, still goin strong! My next replacement will be a honda reman, or I will take mine in to a shop to have reworked provided the diode is still good. t >I thought I would have to do the same in my 98 civic, ie remove driveshaft >etc.... but I didn't. I simply got the alternator loose, then removed the 2 [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >>>Pics here: >>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/alt_replacement/ > I thought I would have to do the same in my 98 civic, ie remove > driveshaft etc.... but I didn't. I simply got the alternator loose, > then removed the 2 bolts on the alternator-engine block bracket, and > it pretty much fell in my lap. Can't do that with the 'Teg. The alternator is directly above the inner CV joint. Believe me, alternator removal is most assuredly impossible unless you remove the driveshaft and the alternator bracket. > Not so lucky on my wife's 87 prelude though.... with that one I had to > remove the driver side upper motor mount to allow me to shift the > engine over enough to make room to get the alternator out. > > Tegger, would this option have worked in your situation at all? No. There is absolutely NO room ANYWHERE to remove the alternator unless you remove the two parts I list above. You cannot remove the alternator from above. IMPOSSIBLE. I did study the situation thoroughly to make sure. Somebody once posted here that his dad or someone had managed to remove his alt upwards, removing the brake master cylinder to make room. That is impossible as well. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > Now you know when I have posted in the past saying the alternator was > a PITA to do. There was absolutely no need to place that component in > that location, they should have been able to get it in front like the > Accord of that year. I'm curious, were you able to get the spindle nut > off with your impact gun? If so what's the model...I may invest in > one. I had to use a torch to get mine off and that was after 3 tries! My DeWalt (model DW293) is capable of 325 ft lbs of torque. It buzzed the spindle nut off in literally seconds. NO problem. I wasn't able to drive out all the staking the last guy put in the spindle nut, but that didn't matter to the DeWalt. I don't want to appear like a shill for DeWalt, but that electric impact gun is absolutely, astoundingly amazing. It has never failed to shift ANY bolt I've ever attempted to remove. Occasionally I have to go back-and- forth for a minute, but so far everything's always come loose. Some day I'm sure I'll run into a bolt it can't move, but so far that hasn't happened. The one and only drawback to the DeWalt is its considerable heft and bulk. It's a foot long from square drive to end of motor housing. It's therefore useless in an engine bay or other tight spot, but for bolts where you have lots of room for the beast, it's wonderful. It was $200 at Home Depot. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > Did I ever tell you aftermarket sucks? > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Pics here: > http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/alt_replacement/ Did I mention why my cutoff date for Honda(s) is 1983 where the alternator replacement is a whopping fifteen minutes or so... <G> JT >> I can now say, with total confidence, that there is absolutely NO way >> of removing the alternator in the 1991 Integra without first removing >> the left driveshaft AND the alternator's lower bracket. > > Did I mention why my cutoff date for Honda(s) is 1983 where the > alternator replacement is a whopping fifteen minutes or so... You didn't mention it and you don't need to. Stop making people jealous. >:P SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > Did I mention why my cutoff date for Honda(s) is 1983 where the > alternator replacement is a whopping fifteen minutes or so... I've got it down to a science with my '87 Accord(s). Gotta remove it, slide it across the crossmember, over the engine mount, and out the far side of the engine, but I can re-and-re within half an hour now (after LOTS of practice). Most of that time is getting wrenches into that tight space to get everything loose. Might hafta look into that DeWalt impact gun, but until then, I LOVE my MasterCraft (Canadian Tire brand) cordless impact gun. For a 14.4V tool, it's amazingly efficient (rated 1050 in-lps.)... and lightweight, and compact... and strong! It once acted as an inadvertent jackstand when I was using it on an exhaust clamp and left it sitting under the frame rail when I let the car down. >> Did I mention why my cutoff date for Honda(s) is 1983 where the >> alternator replacement is a whopping fifteen minutes or so... [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > my MasterCraft (Canadian Tire brand) cordless impact gun. For a 14.4V > tool, it's amazingly efficient (rated 1050 in-lps.) That's 88 ft-lbs. Might as well use your fingers if you expect that one to budge a spindle nut. The DeWalt does 325 ft-lbs, or 3900 in-lbs. Love my DeWalt. LOVE it. Kiss kiss kiss (eww, greasy)... SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>>Did I mention why my cutoff date for Honda(s) is 1983 where the >>>alternator replacement is a whopping fifteen minutes or so... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > That's 88 ft-lbs. Might as well use your fingers if you expect that one to > budge a spindle nut. Well sure, but what do you expect for 14V? > The DeWalt does 325 ft-lbs, or 3900 in-lbs. > > Love my DeWalt. LOVE it. Kiss kiss kiss (eww, greasy)... Would you two like to be alone? >> The DeWalt does 325 ft-lbs, or 3900 in-lbs. >> >> Love my DeWalt. LOVE it. Kiss kiss kiss (eww, greasy)... > > Would you two like to be alone? Close the door on your way out... SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> Did I ever tell you aftermarket sucks? >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > JT I recommend "moving on up", like I did to a '90 Legend from my '88 Accord a couple of years ago. That's if you don't mind giving up 50% of your gas mileage. The alternator is on top! The timing belt change is still a b*Tch. P.S. She just turned over 66K miles. (:-D) dan >>> Did I ever tell you aftermarket sucks? >>> [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > dan No way! I love my ol' Honda tin. Anything after 1983 starts with the *real* idiot lights, computers, real cramped quarters and too much complexity. Besides, I like 40+ mpg! The kicker is that so far, all repairs actually have been accomplished by using my gut instincts of old vintage cars of the 1950's and 1960's... <G> JT I finally got around to trying to find out why the crappy aftermarket alternator I recently removed went bad. First thing I did was pull the rear cover and the brush holder. Well, guess what I found? Check out these slip rings: <http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/alt_replacement/l-bad_alt_slip-rings.jpg> See the inner ring? It was rough like sandpaper. And now the brushes: <http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/alt_replacement/k-bad_alt_brushes.jpg> Look at the short one. That's the one that was riding on the inner slip ring. It wore down below spec just five months after installation. I wonder what else was bad on that alt. Don't ever buy aftermarket sh.t. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ Here at Honda Car Talk, nothing beats "Slide Shows by Tegger." Man I love that second photo in particular. "So I was just hangin' out in the ga-rage, and so I thought I'd dissect the old alternator for an afternoon of adventure... Maybe give ol'Elle a thrill with a few snapshots of the guts... " :-) >I finally got around to trying to find out why the crappy >aftermarket [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Don't ever buy aftermarket sh.t. > Here at Honda Car Talk, nothing beats "Slide Shows by > Tegger." [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > adventure... Maybe give ol'Elle a thrill with a few > snapshots of the guts... <holds flashlight under chin> Behold...the horror... SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > I finally got around to trying to find out why the crappy aftermarket > alternator I recently removed went bad. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Don't ever buy aftermarket sh.t. That's just brutal. I'd take it back to where you got it and drop it on someone's foot. >> I finally got around to trying to find out why the crappy aftermarket >> alternator I recently removed went bad. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > I'd take it back to where you got it and drop it on someone's foot. What puzzles me more than anything is what (if anything) was going through the mind of the hillbilly that let that one past a basic quality check. There is NO way that assembly should have been reused, and the fact that it did is a condemnation of aftermarket parts in general. Keep in mind this was my SECOND aftermarket alternator. The first one also failed early, but I didn't get a chance to find out why. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>> I finally got around to trying to find out why the crappy aftermarket >>> alternator I recently removed went bad. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > was my SECOND aftermarket alternator. The first one also failed early, but > I didn't get a chance to find out why. i wonder about that too. my thought is cynical. i know that life limitation is front and center in most domestic component manufacture. "rough" rings like that are going to produce the results you have. you have therefore to suspect the remanufacturer's design choice. a solid electrical copper ring is not going to have a wear face like that naturally. certainly not when abraded by a graphite brush. and even if the brush had grit in it, wear would be streaked, not pitted. offhand, unless there was severe arcing [which would cause extensive collateral heat damage to the brush holder housing], i just can't think of a way it could end up pitted like that without life limitation coming into design. if you "clean" the ring with emery, does it go smooth or does it stay rough? maybe the rings are "loose" sinter cores with a thin solid skin - and the skin's worn through. that would make brush replacement futile and keep a purchaser of this remanufactured alternator keep returning for new ones, hopefully outside of the warranty period. what's the warranty and what's your mileage? >>>> I finally got around to trying to find out why the crappy aftermarket >>>> alternator I recently removed went bad. [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > for new ones, hopefully outside of the warranty period. what's the > warranty and what's your mileage? Warranty or no, I still think he needs to just take it back and drop it on someone's toe... >>>>> I finally got around to trying to find out why the crappy aftermarket >>>>> alternator I recently removed went bad. [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > Warranty or no, I still think he needs to just take it back and drop it > on someone's toe... :) > Warranty or no, I still think he needs to just take it back and drop > it on someone's toe... No, I'd like to throw it, HARD, at someone's toe. The thing weighs over five pounds, so it should make a nice big dent. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > if you "clean" the ring with emery, does it go smooth or does it stay > rough? On careful inspection, it looks like the bad patch (the part I showed in the photo) only covers about 40-45 degrees of rotation. Past that, the ring is pretty good, close to the appearance of the other ring. The lathe-bit marks are nice and even all over. Crocus cloth removes the black carbon deposits, showing even lathe marks all over except within the bad patch. To see what was happening within the bad patch I had to inspect with a very bright light and a special magnifying glass similar to a jeweler's loupe. The copper there definitely looks rough. The lines left by the lathe bit are not smooth and even, but almost look randomly peened-over, as though they'd been bead-blasted...but ONLY within the brush contact area. Crocus cloth changes the apparent color, but the roughness remains. I wonder what happened within the rough patch that did not happen outside of it? > maybe the rings are "loose" sinter cores with a thin solid > skin - and the skin's worn through. Maybe. It's hard to tell. The rings consist of machined copper sleeves, maybe 20-thou thick, riding on a thick plastic sleeve that's pressed (or molded) on to an iron center bar. I think it's just plain copper tubing, but your notion would explain the roughness only being in the brush contact area. > that would make brush replacement > futile and keep a purchaser of this remanufactured alternator keep > returning for new ones, hopefully outside of the warranty period. I am certain that's their goal. Other than speed of assembly and total absence of quality control, how else can they sell these things so cheaply? > what's the warranty and what's your mileage? The warranty was one year, no mileage given. I average about 20K miles per year these days, so the first aftermarket alternator lasted me about 18K (eleven months) and the other about 8K (five months). SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> if you "clean" the ring with emery, does it go smooth or does it stay >> rough? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I wonder what happened within the rough patch that did not happen > outside of it? if it's a porous sinter core with a solid sleeve, once the sleeve wears off, that's what it'll look like. >> maybe the rings are "loose" sinter cores with a thin solid >> skin - and the skin's worn through. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > per year these days, so the first aftermarket alternator lasted me about > 18K (eleven months) and the other about 8K (five months). i think national average mileage is about 14k miles, so a design life of 20 will keep the punters coming back to be regularly fleeced. 8k is the problem you get with designing to fail - it's hard to get it right. o.e.m. dude - it's the only way to go on stuff like this. decent rings, decent windings, decent bearings, decent diodes, decent solder... >> The warranty was one year, no mileage given. I average about 20K >> miles per year these days, so the first aftermarket alternator lasted [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > is the problem you get with designing to fail - it's hard to get it > right. I mis-typed before: the rough patch is about 90 degrees, not 45. When I was studying it, I was thinking "quarter way around", and somehow that got transliterated into "45 degrees" when I typed my report. As to the roughness, it's burned. Melted, more accurately. I just took apart my old microscope from when I was a kid, this so I could look more closely at the scarring. The eyepiece says "6x". I have three lower lenses, 10x, 20, and 30x. I tried 10x first, then went to 30x. All hand-held, mind you. I had to brace against the bench and alternator, and stop breathing, so I could control my shaking and keep things in focus. Plus I had to hold my bright light just so... The unused portions of the slip rings look kind of like furrows in a freshly-cultivated field, only a lot smoother. They have sort-of rounded peaks and hollows. Lots of machining scars. The good sections of both rings under the brushes look the same. The furrow peaks are a bit flattened, and the hollows are filled with a solid river of carbon, which looks like melted plastic. The rough section looks chaotic and blobby. The furrows are almost obliterated. It looks like something's been arcing over a long period of time in that area. The metal is not blackened, and the surface is not sunken compared to that in the swept area that's still good. I wish I could get pics of this. But to do so I'd have to spend more time than I care to rigging up a proper stand and lighting. This textual description will have to suffice. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
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