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Car Forum / Honda Cars / May 2007

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Timing Belt Change (10500 miles vs 7 years)

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RVS - 02 May 2007 16:12 GMT
Hi,

My Honda civic sedan is now 7 years old, but has only 75000 miles on
it. The manual says i need to change the timing belt at 105000/7 years
(whichever is earlier). I still have 30,000 miles to go, however the
number of years are done.

Should i be replacing the timing belt even though i am 30,000 miles
short, or should i wait for a few more miles.

Thank you
Earle Horton - 02 May 2007 16:21 GMT
The timing belt is made of rubber and a fiber core.  Running the engine will
wear out the rubber and stress the fiber core, but just by sitting in your
driveway the rubber dries out over time.  That is why they want you to
replace the belt after seven years.  In practice you have a several years to
go before it breaks, but you don't really want it to break.

I would replace the belt at seven years.

Earle

> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Thank you
jonnyald - 02 May 2007 16:42 GMT
RVS Wrote:
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Thank youat the very least take off the cambelt cover and inspect the belt. any
signs of crackin, just replace the belt.

Signature

jonnyald

http://www.automotiveforums.com

Joe LaVigne - 02 May 2007 19:49 GMT
> RVS Wrote:
>> Hi,
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> belt. any
> signs of crackin, just replace the belt.

Bad idea.  If it is showing signs of cracking, it is already too far gone,
but it may be close to a break even if you see no visible signs.  A visual
test is not a very good one.

The cost of belt replacement is far lower than the cost of engine
replacement.
Greenblurr93 - 02 May 2007 16:44 GMT
just change it... its real easy to do yourself...

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Greenblurr93

http://www.automotiveforums.com

Elmo P. Shagnasty - 02 May 2007 17:20 GMT
> My Honda civic sedan is now 7 years old, but has only 75000 miles on
> it. The manual says i need to change the timing belt at 105000/7 years
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Should i be replacing the timing belt even though i am 30,000 miles
> short, or should i wait for a few more miles.

OK, so what part of "the manual says 105000/7 years (whichever is
earlier)" is unclear to you?

Cheap bastard.  You're looking for an excuse not to maintain your
car--and worse, you come to a freaking newsgroup.

How's that Usenet-sourced marital advice doing for you?
RVS - 02 May 2007 17:41 GMT
> In article <1178118720.191050.69...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> How's that Usenet-sourced marital advice doing for you?

The manual is pretty clear, however i am sure the guy writing it did
not think of cases where the car had 30000 miles lesser than the life
of the belt. Also most of the postings in here could be clarified by
reading the manual or going to a dealer, so i am assuming everybody
who is here is to her to save a few bucks.
Plus i was interested in checking with other knowledgable people on
this forum.

Did not know frustrated, old farts like you will get so worked up. I
apologize that that because of your sorry,miserable life you feel the
need to use vulgar language when talking to others .
Tegger - 02 May 2007 17:54 GMT
> The manual is pretty clear, however i am sure the guy writing it did
> not think of cases where the car had 30000 miles lesser than the life
> of the belt.

He absolutely did. That is why there is a TIME factor in there.

You will notice further that the manual does not say
84 months AND 105K miles,
it says
84 months OR 105K.
Whichever comes first. And something did come first for you: the time
factor.

Your engine is what is known as an "interference" design. This means
that should the belt skip or break, there is a great chance of the
valves hitting the pistons. If that happens, your repair bill goes from
$400 to almost $2,000.

At your current pace, the belt will be ten years old before you rack up
another 30K miles. This is bad bad bad.

While it is possible the belt may well last another 30K and three more
years, it is extremely unwise to push the life of this belt because of the
potential consequences.

Of course, it's not my money, but yours. If you want to risk a $2,000
repair bill in order to delay the expenditure of $400, be my guest.

And hey, do you think you'll still have the car in another seven years?
No?
Then what does it matter if you spend the $400 now or later? Either way it
needs to get done, and either way it will be the car's last belt change.

Signature

Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Elmo P. Shagnasty - 02 May 2007 19:35 GMT
> > The manual is pretty clear, however i am sure the guy writing it did
> > not think of cases where the car had 30000 miles lesser than the life
> > of the belt.
>
> He absolutely did. That is why there is a TIME factor in there.

Again, RVS is being a cheap bastard and is looking for someone to give
him permission to be a cheap bastard.  That way it' "not his fault" if
something happens.  "But they said it was OK!!!!"
Tegger - 03 May 2007 02:28 GMT
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
DFD71B.14354302052007@nntp1.usenetserver.com:

>> > The manual is pretty clear, however i am sure the guy writing it did
>> > not think of cases where the car had 30000 miles lesser than the life
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> him permission to be a cheap bastard.  That way it' "not his fault" if
> something happens.  "But they said it was OK!!!!"

RVS obviously has not read the message elsewhere in this group from
"Lance Dowdy".

I reprint an excerpt below:

Subject: '91 Honda Accord rough acceleration, erratic speedometer
From: lance_dowdy@autogas.com
Newsgroups: rec.autos.makers.honda

"I have read a lot of info online, but still have questions.  Hope
someone can help - please.
"Background: One year ago lost the Timing belt while driving and messed
up 12 of the 18 valve.  Car only had 58k miles (wife's grandma's car)
so decided to fork over $1900 for repair.  After the repair it ran
great, better than new, I mean surprisingly smooth and fast.  That was
a year ago...."

Signature

Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Elmo P. Shagnasty - 02 May 2007 19:34 GMT
> > OK, so what part of "the manual says 105000/7 years (whichever is
> > earlier)" is unclear to you?
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> apologize that that because of your sorry,miserable life you feel the
> need to use vulgar language when talking to others .

"Cheap bastard" isn't vulgar language.

"Cheap bastard" is a description.
Joe LaVigne - 02 May 2007 19:50 GMT
>> In article <1178118720.191050.69...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> not think of cases where the car had 30000 miles lesser than the life
> of the belt.

Yes, he did.  That's why he said 7 years or 105k, whichever is earlier.
Elmo P. Shagnasty - 02 May 2007 21:40 GMT
> > The manual is pretty clear, however i am sure the guy writing it did
> > not think of cases where the car had 30000 miles lesser than the life
> > of the belt.
>
> Yes, he did.  That's why he said 7 years or 105k, whichever is earlier.

The manual is pretty clear, except to cheap bastards--for whom nothing
regarding spending money is "clear".
Earle Horton - 02 May 2007 22:53 GMT
> > > The manual is pretty clear, however i am sure the guy writing it did
> > > not think of cases where the car had 30000 miles lesser than the life
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> The manual is pretty clear, except to cheap bastards--for whom nothing
> regarding spending money is "clear".

This guy is getting off pretty easy.  How long did the first timing belts
last, 25,000 miles or something like that?  When they sold the first Vegas
and Pintos, people and mechanics too didn't have a clue.

Cheers,

Earle
Peabody - 03 May 2007 17:50 GMT
RVS says...

> The manual is pretty clear, however i am sure the guy
> writing it did not think of cases where the car had
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Plus i was interested in checking with other
> knowledgable people on this forum.

I had the same question about my 94 Accord, for which the
manual says 90k/6yrs.  There's no column in the manual for
90k/7yrs, or 90k/12yrs.  The only column that has 90k miles
also has 6 years.  And that appears to be true of everything
in there - it's 15k miles per year.  But, you know, some
things are really mileage things, like brakes, whereas other
things might have a significant time component, like oil or
coolant.

For what it's worth, and I offer this with no guarantee at
all, here's what I was told:

I took my 94 Accord in to a local Honda/Acura shop (not a
dealer, but highly respected for quality work) when it was
10 years old, and had 46k miles on it.   Remember that the
manual says 90k/6yrs.  I placed my checkbook on the desk,
and told the shop owner that I thought I should get the
timing belt replaced.

Even though my checkbook was clearly visible to him, he said
that the timing belt is pretty much exclusively a mileage
thing, and I don't need to get it changed.  When I asked how
long I should go before getting it changed, he said "90,000
miles".

Now of course, he doesn't guarantee that advice, but he and
his guys have worked on Honda products for decades, and know
more than I do.

I'm all the way up to 58k miles now, and the car is
approaching 13 years old.  Based on time, I should have
changed the belt twice by now.

But here's the other side.  If at some point you are going
to sell the car, you're going to have to get the belt
replaced first, or allow for the cost of doing that in the
selling price.  So, if you plan on selling in the next few
years, you'll have to get it changed once anyway.  Why not
do it now, and eliminate any worry.  In my case, as of today
I have avoided two belt changes.  But if you plan on selling
within, say, four years from now, I think you probably
should go ahead and get it done now.  If you plan on keeping
it till it dies, then you're gonna have to decide what's
reasonable, and I don't know of any statistical data that
would tell you what actually determines the life of the belt.

I do, however, agree with you that the manual is based on an
assumed 15k miles per year, and the column the item appears
in does NOT tell you whether mileage or time is the real
determining factor, if that is not the rate at which you
put miles on the car.  The problem is, I don't know how you
find the real answer.
Earle Horton - 03 May 2007 18:12 GMT
> RVS says...
>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> his guys have worked on Honda products for decades, and know
> more than I do.

All mechanics believe that they know more than the engineers who designed
the vehicle.

> I'm all the way up to 58k miles now, and the car is
> approaching 13 years old.  Based on time, I should have
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> replaced first, or allow for the cost of doing that in the
> selling price.  So, if you plan on selling in the next few

Why?

> years, you'll have to get it changed once anyway.  Why not
> do it now, and eliminate any worry.  In my case, as of today
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> put miles on the car.  The problem is, I don't know how you
> find the real answer.

You wait until the engine stops running and you coast to the side of the
road as if the clutch were depressed or you had put the car in neutral.
Then you add a note to your Owner's Manual, "timing belt lasts xx years, yy
months".  The down side is that the repair will be more expensive now,
because of all the bent valves in your engine.

Earle
Elmo P. Shagnasty - 03 May 2007 19:28 GMT
> Now of course, he doesn't guarantee that advice, but he and
> his guys have worked on Honda products for decades, and know
> more than I do.

And the Honda engineers who said "90K miles or 6 years, whichever comes
first" know EVEN MORE about the situation than your grizzled old tech
does.

> I'm all the way up to 58k miles now, and the car is
> approaching 13 years old.  Based on time, I should have
> changed the belt twice by now.

You rolled the dice and won.  Does that mean you will tell everyone that
what you did is a perfect system, not a roll of the dice?

> I do, however, agree with you that the manual is based on an
> assumed 15k miles per year, and the column the item appears
> in does NOT tell you whether mileage or time is the real
> determining factor,

Yes, it does.  He was perfectly clear:  his manual says 105K miles or 7
years, whichever comes first.  It says that EXPLICITLY.

He can listen to the Honda engineers, or he can listen to you tell third
party stories from some guy who claims that he knows what he's talking
about (he probably just didn't want to take on the work, frankly).

> The problem is, I don't know how you
> find the real answer.

Well, one could start with READING.

But apparently actual *comprehension* is beyond so many people in the
world today, as evidenced by you and RVS.

Either that, or the gene that makes you a cheap bastard is the same gene
that leaves you unable to comprehend plain language.
TomC - 04 May 2007 02:35 GMT
Elmo P. Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in article
<elmop-C75B5C.14282603052007@nntp1.usenetserver.com>...

> > Now of course, he doesn't guarantee that advice, but he and
> > his guys have worked on Honda products for decades, and know
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> Either that, or the gene that makes you a cheap bastard is the same gene
> that leaves you unable to comprehend plain language.

Uh..... what kind of engineer would design an engine that would
self-destruct if a rubber belt broke?
who - 04 May 2007 08:34 GMT
> > And the Honda engineers who said "90K miles or 6 years, whichever comes
> > first" know EVEN MORE about the situation than your grizzled old tech
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> > You rolled the dice and won.  Does that mean you will tell everyone that
> > what you did is a perfect system, not a roll of the dice?

I have two friends who had the timing belt suddenly fail at 130 and 140
Kkms pm the Chrysler 2.5L engine of the 80s.
Fortunately this engine was non interference so only the belt had to be
replaced.
Another friend with an earlier Civic was not so lucky when his timing
belt broke. His interference engine was destroyed.
jim beam - 04 May 2007 14:02 GMT
> Elmo P. Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in article
> <elmop-C75B5C.14282603052007@nntp1.usenetserver.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> Uh..... what kind of engineer would design an engine that would
> self-destruct if a rubber belt broke?

/not/ the same "engineer" that is happy selling inefficient unreliable
garbage that they can't be bothered to make work properly and is made in
detroit.

"interference" is the result of aggressive valve timing and high
compression - which both lead to high output and high fuel efficiency.
if you want to have a low compression low revving motor that is not fuel
efficient, you too can have a non-interference engine.
loewent - 04 May 2007 18:49 GMT
Most Toyota designs are not interference.  They are all much lower
compression ratios than most hondas, but they have good fuel economy as well..
.

>> Elmo P. Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in article
>> <elmop-C75B5C.14282603052007@nntp1.usenetserver.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>if you want to have a low compression low revving motor that is not fuel
>efficient, you too can have a non-interference engine.
jim beam - 05 May 2007 02:56 GMT
> Most Toyota designs are not interference.  They are all much lower
> compression ratios than most hondas, but they have good fuel economy as well..

sure, toyotas make great motors.  but the ones with the same specific
output as the hondas are high compression interference are they not?
Tegger - 05 May 2007 03:15 GMT
> Most Toyota designs are not interference.

Nominally, that's true. But there are quite a few Toyota engines that
become "interference" once a bit of carbon has built up. There's not a lot
of clearance in those "non-interference" engines.

> They are all much lower
> compression ratios than most hondas,

No, same ratios. Sometimes even higher. For example, the Prius's engine is
13:1, believe it or not.

Signature

Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Earle Horton - 02 May 2007 21:40 GMT
...
> Cheap bastard.  You're looking for an excuse not to maintain your
> car--and worse, you come to a freaking newsgroup.
>
> How's that Usenet-sourced marital advice doing for you?

ROTF--LMAO

Earle
Joe LaVigne - 02 May 2007 19:47 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Should i be replacing the timing belt even though i am 30,000 miles
> short, or should i wait for a few more miles.

Replace it.  It is 105,000 or 7 years, whichever comes first.
w - 04 May 2007 08:09 GMT
I seriously dont get it! If someone doesnt have enough money to throw out a
few hundred bucks why would you call him a bastard or a miser...
The guy asked a serious question and wanted to know about other ppl's
opinion about the belt if you are so bent upon calling him a bastard why
dont you foot his bill for the belt change :P

W

>> Hi,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Replace it.  It is 105,000 or 7 years, whichever comes first.
Joe LaVigne - 04 May 2007 14:53 GMT
> I seriously dont get it! If someone doesnt have enough money to throw out
> a few hundred bucks why would you call him a bastard or a miser...
> The guy asked a serious question and wanted to know about other ppl's
> opinion about the belt if you are so bent upon calling him a bastard why
> dont you foot his bill for the belt change :P

If he can't afford the maintenance, he should take the bus.  A car is a
luxury.

And if he decides to be a cheapskate and skip the maintenance, he shouldn't
bother to come crying here when his timing belt snaps and his engine is
turned into a big f.cking paperweight.

Since you are condoning his miserly ways, perhaps you'll be willing to foot
the bill for a new motor for him...
Elmo P. Shagnasty - 04 May 2007 15:57 GMT
> I seriously dont get it! If someone doesnt have enough money to throw out a
> few hundred bucks why would you call him a bastard or a miser...

He's at best penny-wise and pound-foolish.  He wants not to spend a few
hundred dollars today so that he may end up spending a few thousand
dollars down the road.

As the Car Talk guys say, it's the cheapest man who spends the most.
RVS - 04 May 2007 16:52 GMT
> In article <f1em87$d8...@news.Stanford.EDU>, "w" <wqad...@stanford.edu>
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> As the Car Talk guys say, it's the cheapest man who spends the most.

Whether i spend money or not ... whether i take a bus or not is my
decision, If people always followed the manual or went to the dealer
for everything, they would not have to come to this forum and listen
to some of the a.ses on this site. It my car to destroy, may it be a
few hundred now or a few thousand later. I came here to see if
somebody had any contrary experiences. To those who gave me an honest
opinion (most of who advised me to go get the work done now), i
appreciate the advice and will follow it. To those who don't have a
life and have about a dozen replies to a question from a guy they
consider not worth answering, get a life. As for the marital advice
from groups here, may be Elmo's wife can say  how thats working out.

Have had enough of these useless forums.
Earle Horton - 04 May 2007 17:18 GMT
> > In article <f1em87$d8...@news.Stanford.EDU>, "w" <wqad...@stanford.edu>
> >
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Have had enough of these useless forums.

Y tú mamá también.

Saludos,

Earle
Elmo P. Shagnasty - 04 May 2007 17:18 GMT
> > In article <f1em87$d8...@news.Stanford.EDU>, "w" <wqad...@stanford.edu>
> >
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Have had enough of these useless forums.

That's fine.  We've had enough of cheap bastards.
Grumpy AuContraire - 04 May 2007 17:31 GMT
>>>In article <f1em87$d8...@news.Stanford.EDU>, "w" <wqad...@stanford.edu>
>>>wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> That's fine.  We've had enough of cheap bastards.

Wait a minnit thar' Elmo...  I'm a cheap bas... er, frugal, grumpy and..

Why else would I be driving low priced '82 & '83 Civics!?

<G>

JT
Elmo P. Shagnasty - 04 May 2007 17:59 GMT
> > That's fine.  We've had enough of cheap bastards.
>
> Wait a minnit thar' Elmo...  I'm a cheap bas... er, frugal, grumpy and..
>
> Why else would I be driving low priced '82 & '83 Civics!?

Yer not a cheap bastard.  A cheap bastard knows the price of everything
and the value of nothing.

You, sir, plainly understand value.
Grumpy AuContraire - 05 May 2007 23:56 GMT
>>>That's fine.  We've had enough of cheap bastards.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> You, sir, plainly understand value.

Honestly...  I don't think I could bring myself to buy a "new" car even
if I hit the zillion dollar lotto and there's fat chance of that since I
never play.

My goal in life nowadays is to cheat the corporations of their profit,
to deny the politicians their booty and to just generally aggravate the
great mass of sheeple that inhabit our lonely planet.

And, thank you for not takin' prisoners!

JT
Al  G - 04 May 2007 21:08 GMT
>> In article <f1em87$d8...@news.Stanford.EDU>, "w" <wqad...@stanford.edu>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Have had enough of these useless forums.

   And,  Why didn't the guy who asked about checking his airbag get the
same treatment? What, you too cheap to get yo' bag fixed?

Al  G
Elmo P. Shagnasty - 04 May 2007 22:03 GMT
> > Whether i spend money or not ... whether i take a bus or not is my
> > decision, If people always followed the manual or went to the dealer
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>     And,  Why didn't the guy who asked about checking his airbag get the
> same treatment? What, you too cheap to get yo' bag fixed?

In both cases, the advice was to go by what Honda's engineers had to say.

But in RVS's case, he read very plainly what the Honda engineers
said--and then came here to get permission to ignore it.

f.ck him, that cheapass bastard.
Gordon McGrew - 05 May 2007 01:04 GMT
>> > Whether i spend money or not ... whether i take a bus or not is my
>> > decision, If people always followed the manual or went to the dealer
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>f.ck him, that cheapass bastard.

I have to defend RVS on this.  I am somewhat of a CB myself.  If the
CBs of the world didn't exist, how would you know that it isn't safe
to go past the manufacturers reco?  So, if you haven't run RVS off
entirely, I will give him a little data.

The recommended change interval for my '98 Odyssey is 84 months/105K
miles.  I replaced the belt at 98/79K.  I felt comfortable extending
the time interval for several reasons:  the mileage was very low, it
was driven gently most of the time, and (most important) replacing the
engine would not have been a financial hardship for me.  I didn't lose
any sleep over this and in the end, I won the bet.  YMMV.
Tegger - 05 May 2007 02:14 GMT
> I have to defend RVS on this.  I am somewhat of a CB myself.  If the
> CBs of the world didn't exist, how would you know that it isn't safe
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> engine would not have been a financial hardship for me.  I didn't lose
> any sleep over this and in the end, I won the bet.  YMMV.

It's more temperature extremes than anything else that limits belt life
with regard to time. Honda is very specific on this point.

Honda builds in a considerable safety factor into their belt replacement
interval specs. This done, as I understand it, primarily due to the fact
that the engines are interference designs, and risk catastrophic damage
should the belt fail.

The upshot is that Honda belts often (but not always!) go a considerable
way past their official replacement point, and do not fail. The danger is
the cost of damage repair.

As you say, in your case it was a "bet". In a casino, who holds the
advantage, the house, or you? Not everybody would be comfortable betting
zero with the risk of losing $2000, when $400 would remove the risk
entirely.

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www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 
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