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Car Forum / Honda Cars / October 20072004 Accord coupe: Proper charging voltage
What is the proper charging voltage value while driving? Can it fluctuate between 13.0V and 14.2V, almost randomly? I have noticed my headlights getting randomly dimmer during driving at night, so I got a cigarete lighter pluggable volmeter to monitor voltage and I see it vary mostly between 13.8V-14.05V but sometimes it plunges to 13.0V to quickly recover throug 13.2, 13.4 back to 13.8V... Can a turning on A/C compressor cause this? Is this normal or my battery or alternator is going down? I had two japanesse cars before this honda, one was 1994 nissan sentra, the other is 1995 toyota camry (still got this one) and neither one has any visible dimming on the headlights nor voltage drops like this. > What is the proper charging voltage value while driving? > Can it fluctuate between 13.0V and 14.2V, almost randomly? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > and neither one has any visible > dimming on the headlights nor voltage drops like this. voltage is in the correct range. look for bad connections. you don't state mileage, but alternators are usually good for 100k+ miles. check belt tightness too. > voltage is in the correct range. look for bad connections. Bad connections where? > you don't state mileage, but alternators are usually good for 100k+ miles. milleage is less than 50k. > check belt tightness too. OK. Where can I get a repair manual for that accord? Is there an electronic (pdf) version of the manual available online? > What is the proper charging voltage value while driving? > Can it fluctuate between 13.0V and 14.2V, almost randomly? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > (still got this one) and neither one has any visible > dimming on the headlights nor voltage drops like this. You haven't said whether these readings were obtained at tick-over, cold; tickover, hot; or at usual running speed ie. >2000 rpm. At low revs, the alternator is pushed to supply higher load current and the battery is used as a fall-back. Consequently, its voltage is likely to fall a little while making up the shortfall. HTH  Signature-- Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ XP1800+ Page added, Graphics Tutorial WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro.org.uk/ Wessex Astro Society's Website Dorset UK Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps > You haven't said whether these readings were obtained > at tick-over, cold; tickover, hot; or at usual running speed > ie. >2000 rpm. Not sure what tickover means... and hot to test :-) I see lights going dimmer for a while when cruising at the city streets, usualy at around 40mph. Rpms are below 2000 then, around steady 1600 or so. It is 4 cyl 2.4l engine (EX-L model). > At low revs, the alternator is pushed to supply higher load > current and the battery is used as a fall-back. Consequently, > its voltage is likely to fall a little while making up the shortfall. Well, I have never observed drop below 13V, but still - as I said before, this it the first car I own which does it. I just wrote to check if these hondas do it, and if this normal, or is an early sign of battery being old (probably an original honda battery from 2004) or something else. Did not have a chance to chec the belt yet, maybe it is loose and when compressor wants to start it slips causing alternator to stop turning as well... However I hear no noise. > What is the proper charging voltage value while driving? > Can it fluctuate between 13.0V and 14.2V, almost randomly? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Is this normal or my battery or alternator is going down? Is your Check Engine light on? There is an important question. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> What is the proper charging voltage value while driving? >> Can it fluctuate between 13.0V and 14.2V, almost randomly? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > There is an important question. No, it is not... Should I expect this light goin on for a battery or alternator problems??? That is a surprise. >>> What is the proper charging voltage value while driving? >>> Can it fluctuate between 13.0V and 14.2V, almost randomly? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > No, it is not... Should I expect this light goin on for > a battery or alternator problems??? That is a surprise. There is a known issue with your model having to do with fluctuating charging voltage and headlights dimming. Sometimes a P1298 is stored in the ECM. TSB 05-034 covers this for ALL '04 Accords.. The most likely source of your problem is cracked solder in the Electrical Load Detector (ELD). This means you must replace the entire underhood fuse box. The ELD is potted, so it's not fixable like a Main Relay. You may want to run this past your dealer and see if you can get this done under some kind of warranty, official or unofficial. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > There is a known issue with your model having to do with fluctuating > charging voltage and headlights dimming. Sometimes a P1298 is stored [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > You may want to run this past your dealer and see if you can get this done > under some kind of warranty, official or unofficial. Interesting... One more electrical question - when I open the hood, near front driver side shock absorber column there is a small rectangular box with three LEDs with "Corrosion Control Systems Auto Saver Device" written on the sticker. What exactly is it, how it works and is it factory installed or some aftermarket gizmo the previous owner put in? >> There is a known issue with your model having to do with fluctuating >> charging voltage and headlights dimming. Sometimes a P1298 is stored [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > What exactly is it, how it works and is it factory installed or > some aftermarket gizmo the previous owner put in? It is a ripoff. Is an aftermarket gizmo that does not much more than make the seller rich, and damage your factory wiring. It's supposed to work on the same principle as similar devices that have been installed on boats for years. But a car is not a boat and is not immersed in water, so the principle doesn't work. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> One more electrical question - when I open the hood, near front >> driver side shock absorber column there is a small rectangular box [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > been installed on boats for years. But a car is not a boat and is not > immersed in water, so the principle doesn't work. Well, I have not payed for it, previous owner must have payed for it. If it does not hurt I would leave it alone - does to make things worse? Can it be related to my lights dimming situation? >>> One more electrical question - when I open the hood, near front >>> driver side shock absorber column there is a small rectangular box [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > If it does not hurt I would leave it alone - does to make things > worse? Can it be related to my lights dimming situation? Not very likely. Unless it's been badly miswired, of course. Check out TSB number 05-034 with your local dealer. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>> One more electrical question - when I open the hood, near front >>> driver side shock absorber column there is a small rectangular box [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > If it does not hurt I would leave it alone - does to make things > worse? Can it be related to my lights dimming situation? Try unplugging it or pulling its fuse, just to be sure. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>>There is a known issue with your model having to do with fluctuating >>>charging voltage and headlights dimming. Sometimes a P1298 is stored [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > been installed on boats for years. But a car is not a boat and is not > immersed in water, so the principle doesn't work. If there is a zinc anode, it might have some value but... JT >>>> There is a known issue with your model having to do with fluctuating >>>> charging voltage and headlights dimming. Sometimes a P1298 is stored [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > JT no. like tegger says, you need to be immersed in water for that to work - there needs to be continuous electrolyte between the two parts, the one being protected and the one being sacrificed. >> If there is a zinc anode, it might have some value but... >> > no. like tegger says, you need to be immersed in water for that to work > - there needs to be continuous electrolyte between the two parts, the > one being protected and the one being sacrificed. The system design to protect iron/steel with sacrificial zinc does not need electricity from car battery to work... So the gizmo I have in my honda would work on some different principle. >>> If there is a zinc anode, it might have some value but... >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The system design to protect iron/steel with sacrificial zinc does not > need electricity from car battery to work... that's correct - the zinc corrodes preferentially to steel. and the process still needs electrolyte immersion. > So the gizmo I have in my honda would work on some different principle. yeah. it extracts the electrons from the dollar bills in your wallet and having thus determined their coordinates, the gizmo's vendor can then teleport those bills, your credit card details and your wife's cell phone number into their own private possession without your knowledge. it does damn-all for rust protection on your car. >> The system design to protect iron/steel with sacrificial zinc does not >> need electricity from car battery to work... > > that's correct - the zinc corrodes preferentially to steel. and the > process still needs electrolyte immersion. Yes, it needs electrolyte, but it is everywhere... Rain, road puddle with water, melting snow with salt, etc. Zinc plating (galvanizing) is used for many other iron/steel applications where rust resistance is needed which are not water-immersed. Compare wire fence, steel tube, angle iron or I-beams. Similar situation i with tin-plating. It provides sacrificial protection for copper, nickel and other non-ferrous metals, but not for steel. Product does not need to be submersed in water for this principle to work - if there is enough moisture in the air to cause rust than sacrificial zinc layer should work just fine... BTW - is accord build with zinc-plated/galvanized steel? >> So the gizmo I have in my honda would work on some different principle. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > phone number into their own private possession without your knowledge. > it does damn-all for rust protection on your car. Well, I got this car used with gizmo installed already, so I did not spend a penny on it. > BTW - is accord build with zinc-plated/galvanized steel? I think so. But zinc eventually "wears out" when its anodic protection is used up. Rust is a process that involves electrons flowing out of iron (in the steel). The electronic rust-proofing systems use that as their basis for justification. Somehow, causing elelctron flow to occur in the electrolyte is supposed to interfere with electron flow out of the iron. I'm no chemist, but I can't see how electronic rust-proofing could possibly work. The car's body already has lots of electrons flowing through it. It's the ground for the car's 12V electrical system, remember? A wire that carries electricity will rust just the same as one that does not carry electricity, provided that wire is made of a corrodable substance (like iron or copper). Electrons in the electrolyte do not protect metal from corrosion. The only way to prevent corrosion is to prevent oxygen and steel from meeting in the first place. That means zinc primer with paint, or chemical- based rustproofing. > Well, I got this car used with gizmo installed already, so I did > not spend a penny on it. I don't think it will /hurt/ at all, it just won't /help/. The hurt may eventually come in the form of electrical trouble at the aftermarket splices into the factory wiring. But that's true of any aftermarket device. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> BTW - is accord build with zinc-plated/galvanized steel? > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > work. The car's body already has lots of electrons flowing through it. It's > the ground for the car's 12V electrical system, remember? that would be correct, but in the same way as a sacrificial anode, it requires full continuous electrical immersion int he electrolyte to work. patch wetting doesn't work as local electrode potential cells establish themselves and corrosion marches away as normal. > A wire that carries electricity will rust just the same as one that does > not carry electricity, provided that wire is made of a corrodable substance [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > eventually come in the form of electrical trouble at the aftermarket > splices into the factory wiring. But that's true of any aftermarket device. > that would be correct, but in the same way as a sacrificial anode, it > requires full continuous electrical immersion int he electrolyte to > work. patch wetting doesn't work as local electrode potential cells > establish themselves and corrosion marches away as normal. Continous immersion is required only in case of situation you have in a ocean boat. Electrolitic current flow has to take place between remove iron component and the single sacrificial zinc anode. Without electrolitic link proces stops. With galvanized steel you have to think in a micro-scale. Each spot with chipped paint cover lets the oxygen and water into the contact with bare metal. If steel would not be exposed and zinc layer is 100% sealed, only zinc will oxidize and we have no sacrificial anode principle in working here... Situation in real life is different - no layer is 100% seal. There will be always pores in zinc layer, exposing steel. So, the micro-hole in the paint and zinc layer will be exposed to air (oxygen) and water (not pure water, rather electrolite). And on the micro-scale zinc layer will start to sacrifice using the same principle as with the boat and remote anode. >> BTW - is accord build with zinc-plated/galvanized steel? > > I think so. Is there any place we could check it to know for sure? > But zinc eventually "wears out" when its anodic protection is > used up. Understood. Nothing will last forever. We are comparing here steel protected only with paint to the steel protected with sacrificial layer of zinc and the paint. The second will last significantly longer. And no electronic gizmo is needed for this purpose. > Rust is a process that involves electrons flowing out of iron (in the > steel). The electronic rust-proofing systems use that as their basis for [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > (like iron or copper). Electrons in the electrolyte do not protect metal > from corrosion. Corrosion happens on the borders of two metals, including mixtures of metals (like steel). I am talking about micro borders in crystal structure of the metal. No metal is pure and will have mixture of different metalc causing forming micro-cells for electricity to flow. > The only way to prevent corrosion is to prevent oxygen and steel from > meeting in the first place. That means zinc primer with paint, or chemical- > based rustproofing. If a car panels are mad of galvanized steel - paint works as a rust/oxidation protection of the zinc layer... Rust will act on the zinc layer first, if paint layer is comprimised. Zinc layer will then prevent corrosion of the steel with the sacrificial anode principle. Rain/snow will connect the steel-zinc contact and will cause zinc to rust first. >>BTW - is accord build with zinc-plated/galvanized steel? > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > meeting in the first place. That means zinc primer with paint, or chemical- > based rustproofing. This is great territory to get in a pissing contest. Suffice to say that "electrolyte" has different values depending on environment. Emersed simply brings about faster reaction, (similar to plating etc.), as opposed to atmospheric which simply allows oxidation, (rust to most of us). The value of no charged zinc based components, (pot metal is a prime example), are the first to deteriorate. And, that deterioration is partially blocked by chrome plating but once it begins to blister, (pit), the show's over. Just a note... Back in the "old" days most cars had positive grounds which also minimizes oxidation since electron flow is reversed. I sometimes wonder why they ever change to negative ground especially in the the rust belt... JT >>> The system design to protect iron/steel with sacrificial zinc does >>> not need electricity from car battery to work... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Yes, it needs electrolyte, but it is everywhere... > Rain, road puddle with water, melting snow with salt, etc. but it needs to form a continuous electrical connection so that all regions have the same electrode potential all the time. rain splashes are not continuous immersion and a sacrificial anode doesn't work. don't take my word for it - try it yourself. > Zinc plating (galvanizing) is used for many other iron/steel applications > where rust resistance is needed which are not water-immersed. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > to work - if there is enough moisture in the air to cause rust than > sacrificial zinc layer should work just fine... but that's a zinc layer [galvanizing or sherardizing] - different principle! a sacrificial anode will protect naked steel - sherardizing or galvanizing are simply plating processes. > BTW - is accord build with zinc-plated/galvanized steel? i believe parts of it use sherardized steel, yes. >>> So the gizmo I have in my honda would work on some different principle. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Well, I got this car used with gizmo installed already, so I did > not spend a penny on it. good luck. >> Zinc plating (galvanizing) is used for many other iron/steel applications >> where rust resistance is needed which are not water-immersed. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > principle! a sacrificial anode will protect naked steel - sherardizing > or galvanizing are simply plating processes. Same principle, different implementation of the principle. When it is not practical to use galvanized steel you can use sacrificial anode made with chunk of zinc - when this is used up you can replace anode and continue protection. With products made of the galvanized steel, the principle is the same, there are just practical differences, like you cannot "replace" sacrificial anode because it is under the paint, covering your whole care for example. Both work the same way. >> BTW - is accord build with zinc-plated/galvanized steel? > > i believe parts of it use sherardized steel, yes. Parts? Not all panels? >>> Zinc plating (galvanizing) is used for many other iron/steel >>> applications [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > use sacrificial anode made with chunk of zinc - when this > is used up you can replace anode and continue protection. sorry, that's not the complete story. in order for that sacrificial anode to protect, there has to be a direct electrolyte-born current path between the anode and the cathode. if the electrolyte is not in full contact with the cathode, the cathode cannot be protected, it's still subject to corrosion. and the only direct electrical path available is with electrolyte immersion. patches of discontinuous electrolyte [rain splashes] are not electrically connected with each other and thus there is no protection current. > With products made of the galvanized steel, the principle > is the same, there are just practical differences, like [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Parts? Not all panels? the bits that get salted the most. not much point for the roof. >>>> Zinc plating (galvanizing) is used for many other iron/steel >>>> applications [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >> under the paint, covering your whole care for example. >> Both work the same way. Jim, in case of the galvanized steel you have direct electrical path available between two metals (steel and zinc) in every place where you have a pore in your body paint and a rain drop... If you have car made of galvanized steel, whole car submersion in electrolite is not required for the zinc to work. Read my other post in this thread and you will understand that naked steel + zinc anode attached and galvanizing are simply two implementations of THE SAME electro-chemical principle. > Read my other post in this thread and you will understand that > naked steel + zinc anode attached and galvanizing are simply two > implementations of THE SAME electro-chemical principle. They might be, but they don't operate in the same environments. Imagine a car door. There is water in the bottom of the door, but not anywhere on the vertical walls of the door. There is no connection between your chunk of zinc and the bottom of the door. The door will rust no matter what. Zinc sheet covering the inside of the door is in direct contact with the water in the door bottom. It will function until the zinc is used up. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > They might be, but they don't operate in the same environments. Same principle does not mean that they will operate in the same environments. Of course a naked iron boat with an anode in a form of a chunk of zinc will be immersed in sea water so there is no need to have zinc close to every part of iron... In case of galvanising you have the same electrochemical process going on but on a micro scale, micro-distances. > Imagine a car door. There is water in the bottom of the door, but not > anywhere on the vertical walls of the door. There is no connection between [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Zinc sheet covering the inside of the door is in direct contact with the > water in the door bottom. It will function until the zinc is used up. We are discussing a situation where you have a dent in the paint surface, so there is a gap in the paint seal. Water wets the bare metal and causes electrolitic link between metals on micropores. All this apply to galvanized or zinc plated steel panels or similarly protected suspention parts. Nowhere in my post I was comenting that their gizmo will work... I am still interested in how it supposed to work and what is the principle used there... Why do we need electrical current, etc. I was comenting galvanized panels as sufficient because working on the same "Sacrificial zinc anode" principle. >> They might be, but they don't operate in the same environments. > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > I was comenting galvanized panels as sufficient because working > on the same "Sacrificial zinc anode" principle. zinc plating is /NOT/ sacrificial anode principle!!! it's surface passivation! no electron flow! again? > zinc plating is /NOT/ sacrificial anode principle!!! it's surface > passivation! no electron flow! > > again? It is true, untill the zinc layer is broken... Paint is also passivation layer, untill the paint is cracked and metal underneath is exposed to weather elements. At this moment paint stops working, zinc layer continues to work on the anode/cathode principle and will be used up first before steel starts to rust. That is why zinc plated steel pieces can survive without corrosion for 70 years - try this with paint! :-) Couple of quotations from the expert sites as a backup to my words: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanization Zinc coatings prevent corrosion of the protected metal by forming a physical barrier, and by acting as a sacrificial anode if this barrier is damaged. http://www.galvanizeit.org/showContent,26,58.cfm#1 1. How does galvanizing protect steel from corrosion? Zinc metal used in the galvanizing process provides an impervious barrier between the steel substrate and corrosive elements in the atmosphere. It does not allow moisture and corrosive chlorides and sulfides to attack the steel. Zinc is more importantly anodic to steel - meaning it will corrode before the steel, until the zinc is entirely consumed. http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-galvanized-steel.htm Zinc also protects the steel by acting as a "sacrificial layer." If, for some reason, rust does take hold on the surface of galvanized steel, the zinc will get corroded first. This allows the zinc that is spread over the breach or scratch to prevent rust from reaching the steel. >>>>> Zinc plating (galvanizing) is used for many other iron/steel >>>>> applications [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > naked steel + zinc anode attached and galvanizing are simply two > implementations of THE SAME electro-chemical principle. no, that's not correct. galvanizing or sherardizing are /not/ the same as sacrificial anodic protection. with the latter, you can have a huge-a.s ship-sized chunk of naked steel, contiguous electrolyte, a sacrificial anode, and no corrosion in the steel. the anode corrodes like the blazes. IT DOES NOT WORK if the electrolyte is not contiguous because the electron flow generated by the anode electrolysis is not transmitted to the areas not contacted with contiguous electrolyte. with galvanizing and sherardizing otoh, you have contiguous plating which protects in /two/ ways. first is [comparatively] passive plating. second is a localized electrolytic cell disruption. this works with or without liquid electrolyte. so, getting back to cars, a lot of modern vehicle body panels are sherardized, and this gives the passivating protection you're seeking to establish. but you CANNOT achieve this same effect by bolting a bit of zinc onto the chassis of a car and have it protect the whole vehicle unless there is contiguous electrolyte. even in seattle in the depths of winter rain, they don't have that. and getting back to the op's doohickey, it's a total waste of money, and designed by someone with insufficient understanding of corrosion principles. >> Jim, in case of the galvanized steel you have direct electrical >> path available between two metals (steel and zinc) in every [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > second is a localized electrolytic cell disruption. this works with > or without liquid electrolyte. Check my quotations from the other post. They specificaly use the term "sacrificial anode" in galvanized steel. > so, getting back to cars, a lot of modern vehicle body panels are > sherardized, and this gives the passivating protection you're seeking to > establish. but you CANNOT achieve this same effect by bolting a bit of > zinc onto the chassis of a car and have it protect the whole vehicle > unless there is contiguous electrolyte. even in seattle in the depths > of winter rain, they don't have tha I have never stated in this discussion that you can achieve the same by bolting a chunk of zinc to a car... You do not need to do it. However, if you have zinc plated panels you are protected by the zinc layer on the same principle. > and getting back to the op's > doohickey, it's a total waste of money, and designed by someone > with insufficient understanding of corrosion principles. Do you know the design details of this doohickey? > There is a known issue with your model having to do with fluctuating > charging voltage and headlights dimming. Sometimes a P1298 is stored [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > You may want to run this past your dealer and see if you can get this > done under some kind of warranty, official or unofficial. Thank you. Talked to my local dealer and set up the appointment for Thursday. They will check if this is the issue and if it was done already or not. I have this car under "honda certified" status, so it should not be a problem with the warranty, I hope. I also have the "honda care" so they should take care of me :-))) Is there a convenient list for some other service builetins or known defects for my 2004 accord available? Maybe I could do everything while I take this car in for the service on Thursday... Is this list something I should expect to get from a dealer? > Is there a convenient list for some other service builetins or > known defects for my 2004 accord available? Maybe I could do > everything while I take this car in for the service on Thursday... There is a list. Go here: http://search.ebscohost.com/ Sign in with username lib and password access Choose "Auto Repair Reference" from menu at left. Navigate to your car. You can also set up an account with American Honda's Ownerlink site, here: https://www.ahm-ownerlink.com/login.asp?page=%2Fprod%5Fhome%2Easp Here you can view any TSB's specifically for your vehicle. > Is this list something I should expect to get from a dealer? The dealer has access to Honda's internal iN network, which houses all the TSBs, but without a specific symptom to search for, it's hard to locate specific TSBs without going through them all. Or so I'm told. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > There is a list. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > https://www.ahm-ownerlink.com/login.asp?page=%2Fprod%5Fhome%2Easp > Here you can view any TSB's specifically for your vehicle. Thanks Tegger, you are very helpful. >> There is a list. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Thanks Tegger, you are very helpful. I'll send you my bill. ;) SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>> There is a list. >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > I'll send you my bill. ;) Oooops! ;) |
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