 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Car Forum / Honda Cars / December 2007bad transmission - 2500 dollars
Hi, I took my 98 civic to an authorized honda dealer. they read the code P0730 - Incorrect gear ratio. Now they suggest replacing the transmission for 2500 parts and labor. Some q's: Is there any chance honda is wrong in saying the only thing to do is get a new transmission. There is something wrong with the car, the check engine light came on a week ago, I had it reset, and now it's on again, so it's not just a fault with the computer. Also the car jumps slightly (almost impersptably) when i step on the gas after starting it. The car seems to run fine otherwise. How long is it possible for it to keep going? Will it just break down on the freeway one day (not safe to drive), or will it just gradually get worse? Anything I can do besides replacing my tranmission? The dealer said just baby it and don't change the transmission fluid as this is any metal particles in it now keep it running fine, so don't change it. I was planning on getting rid of the car in a few months anyway, as I will not need a car for a while (going back to school). I don't want to rip someone off by selling them a car that seems fine, but has a a bad transmission, on the other hand i sure don't want to pay 2500 for a new transmission. Any cheaper alternative fix I can do or other suggestions? Thanks. > Hi, > > I took my 98 civic to an authorized honda dealer. they read the code > P0730 - Incorrect gear ratio. Now they suggest replacing the > transmission for 2500 parts and labor. The dealer said > just baby it and don't change the transmission fluid as this is any > metal particles in it now keep it running fine, so don't change it. ----------------------------- Now we know they are lying to you. Go buy 8 quarts of tranny fluid. Drain-n-fill once. Drive for a few hours / days and do it again. Report back. 'Curly' >> The dealer said >> just baby it and don't change the transmission fluid as this is any [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Drain-n-fill once. Drive for a few hours / days and do it again. > Report back. Funny thing you said this, because I heard the same story in the toyota dealership about my 1995 camry about year ago. They told me that my tranny fluid is too dirty to change, that particles are making it run and if they flush it will start to slip. The car has 240 thousand miles, so they basically said it has a death sentence and I should look for another car. I listened to them, and kept the old fluid. Couple of weeks ago I got my camry back to the same dealer for a routine oil change, and the same service manager (probably reading recomendation from a different mechanic) told me that my transmission fluid is very dirty and it needs to be flushed... When I told them about older recomendation I heard that "different mechanic is like a different doctor - gives different advices to the same sicknesses and it is only my decision to follow with the recomendation or not" - I was confused... Now the jury is still out - not sure if I should flush the tranny or not. > Now the jury is still out - not sure if I should flush the tranny or not. Flushing is different than simply changing the fluid by drain and refill. >> Now the jury is still out - not sure if I should flush the tranny or not. > > Flushing is different than simply changing the fluid by drain and refill. Ah... so I should NOT flush it but just simply drain it? So it will just dilute "particles" and everything will be fine? >>> Now the jury is still out - not sure if I should flush the tranny or >>> not. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Ah... so I should NOT flush it but just simply drain it? > So it will just dilute "particles" and everything will be fine? yes. >>> The dealer said >>> just baby it and don't change the transmission fluid as this is any [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Now the jury is still out - not sure if I should flush the tranny or not. change the fluid. drain and fill, don't flush. > change the fluid. drain and fill, don't flush. What really is the difference? Scale of dilution of dirty fluid? Flushing will kill my transmission but draining fluid will help? I do not quite get it. Would you care to explain? >> change the fluid. drain and fill, don't flush. > > What really is the difference? Scale of dilution of dirty fluid? > Flushing will kill my transmission but draining fluid will help? > I do not quite get it. Would you care to explain? flushing machines typically get used on all types of vehicles, with all types of fluids. the contamination comes from the residues left in the machine from previous work. and believe it or not, hondas are very sensitive to the type of fluid used - this kind of contamination can ruin the shifting characteristics of a transmission. i know this from personal experience. drain and fill simply empties the old fluid, and does /not/ contaminate with anything foreign. it works by dilution, and that is sufficient. again, i speak from personal experience. > drain and fill simply empties the old fluid, and does /not/ contaminate > with anything foreign. it works by dilution, and that is sufficient. > again, i speak from personal experience. Not to mention, Honda's own engineers say that a "flush" (as most people use the term) isn't recommended. They specify a repetitive drain/fill/drive procedure as a way to clear things out. >> drain and fill simply empties the old fluid, and does /not/ contaminate >> with anything foreign. it works by dilution, and that is sufficient. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > use the term) isn't recommended. They specify a repetitive > drain/fill/drive procedure as a way to clear things out. Do they care to say WHY it is not recommended? >>> drain and fill simply empties the old fluid, and does /not/ >>> contaminate with anything foreign. it works by dilution, and that is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Do they care to say WHY it is not recommended? i just told you... >>>> drain and fill simply empties the old fluid, and does /not/ >>>> contaminate with anything foreign. it works by dilution, and that is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > i just told you... What you said does not make any sense. Flush is going to exchange almost 100% of fluid with a new one. In principle it should be better than just replacing 2/3 of old fluid. Besides - the argument was that old fluid contains "particles" which help transmission work. If you flush these particles you make the things worse. > >> Do they care to say WHY it is not recommended? > > > > i just told you... > > What you said does not make any sense. > Flush is going to exchange almost 100% of fluid with a new one. It will also do other things that the people who designed and built the transmission don't want to happen. Honda does specify a method to exchange almost 100% of the fluid with fresh. Use that method. Hint: it does NOT involve the use of a machine. A torque wrench, a drain pan, and some fresh fluid--and time--are all that's needed. >> >> Do they care to say WHY it is not recommended? >> > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It will also do other things that the people who designed and built > the transmission don't want to happen. What exactly are these "things"? Do you know or you simply guess? > Honda does specify a method to exchange almost 100% of the fluid with > fresh. Use that method. Hint: it does NOT involve the use of a > machine. A torque wrench, a drain pan, and some fresh fluid--and > time--are all that's needed. If you replace 2/3 of the fluid twice you will have still more than 11% of old gunk diluted in the transmission... >>> >> Do they care to say WHY it is not recommended? >>> > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > If you replace 2/3 of the fluid twice you will have still > more than 11% of old gunk diluted in the transmission... At least you don't have anyone elses fluid from the flushing machine which was a point he made. >>> Honda does specify a method to exchange almost 100% of the fluid with >>> fresh. Use that method. Hint: it does NOT involve the use of a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > At least you don't have anyone elses fluid from the flushing machine which > was a point he made. Why would I have someone else's fluid?? > Why would I have someone else's fluid?? dude, we do NOT want to go there. TMI. >> Why would I have someone else's fluid?? > > dude, we do NOT want to go there. TMI. Who is "we"? > > Not to mention, Honda's own engineers say that a "flush" (as most people > > use the term) isn't recommended. They specify a repetitive > > drain/fill/drive procedure as a way to clear things out. > > Do they care to say WHY it is not recommended? Because it's not. Does it matter WHY they say it's not recommended? They are the engineers. I'm the consumer. I don't need to know the engineering details. I need to know what maintenance to perform and when to perform it. The hairy details aren't nearly so important. >> > Not to mention, Honda's own engineers say that a "flush" (as most people >> > use the term) isn't recommended. They specify a repetitive [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Does it matter WHY they say it's not recommended? Do you think I would care to ask this question if it did not matter to me? > They are the engineers. I'm the consumer. > I don't need to know the engineering details. > I need to know what maintenance to perform > and when to perform it. > > The hairy details aren't nearly so important. I will give you a reason why they could be important. If the manufacturer recomended use of a machine than the routine would be not universal and hard to make in not well equiped garage... If a simple method not requiring expensive machine is good enough than this method will be recomended. There is a big difference between "not recomendin" and "recomending against" - at least for me... So does honda recomend against using such machines? If so, what is the reasoning behind such recomendation? > Do you think I would care to ask this question > if it did not matter to me? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the routine would be not universal and hard to > make in not well equiped garage... If the engineers recommended a machine, the machine in question would be specified and Honda would require its dealerships to own one. >> Do you think I would care to ask this question >> if it did not matter to me? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > If the engineers recommended a machine, the machine in question would > be specified and Honda would require its dealerships to own one. Engineer do not recommend a machine, they do not recommend against using a machine either. So do not try to lift your own opinion against machines using the authority of the honda manufacturer if there is no such recomendation against using such machines. So far, during this lenghty discussion, nobody was able to answer simple question with valid, verifiable answer: why flushing transmission is worse than drain&fill. Also, nobody confirmed the statement made to me and OP at the dealership about benefits of using tranny with an old fluid, which contains "beneficial particles", flushed with the replacement of the fluid... > > If the engineers recommended a machine, the machine in question would > > be specified and Honda would require its dealerships to own one. > > Engineer do not recommend a machine, they do not recommend > against using a machine either. Yes, they do, as mentioned earlier in this thread. >>> change the fluid. drain and fill, don't flush. >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > with anything foreign. it works by dilution, and that is sufficient. > again, i speak from personal experience. We are talking about doing "flush" at the dealership. In my case, we were talking about my old toyota camry. The most likely scenario will be that the machine was used on toyotas only for years. No other fluids than toyota. So the argument is mute. > > drain and fill simply empties the old fluid, and does /not/ contaminate > > with anything foreign. it works by dilution, and that is sufficient. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > used on toyotas only for years. No other fluids than toyota. > So the argument is mute. Firstly, it's not a "mute" point. The phrase is "moot point". http://wsu.edu/~brians/errors/mute.html Secondly, it doesn't matter if the dealership has and tries to sell the services of such a machine. The only real question is, is it good for the car? The dealership doesn't really care; they care about selling services that people want, whether those services are useful or not, whether those services are beneficial or not, whether those services are harmful or not. Does the manufacturer specify the procedure? If so, show me the specification. Chances are, the manufacturer does NOT specify the procedure. The fact that the dealership offers services not recommended by the manufacturer is simply a fact of life. They want to make money any way they can. Honda specifies a repeated drain/fill/drive procedure to exchange the fluid, and recommends against using a flush machine. There's a reason for that, and it doesn't have anything to do with foreign or contaminated fluids. >> > drain and fill simply empties the old fluid, and does /not/ contaminate >> > with anything foreign. it works by dilution, and that is sufficient. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://wsu.edu/~brians/errors/mute.html Yes, thank you. > Secondly, it doesn't matter if the dealership has and tries to sell the > services of such a machine. The only real question is, is it good for > the car? The dealership doesn't really care; they care about selling > services that people want, whether those services are useful or not, > whether those services are beneficial or not, whether those services are > harmful or not. Does the manufacturer tolerate services sold under the logo of TOYOTA or HONDA which are not only not recomended but HARMFULL? Dont you think that manufacturer would forbid selling such services? > Does the manufacturer specify the procedure? If so, show me the > specification. Do not know such specification. do not have access to service manuals. > Chances are, the manufacturer does NOT specify the procedure. The fact > that the dealership offers services not recommended by the manufacturer [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > for that, and it doesn't have anything to do with foreign or > contaminated fluids. Can you show me such recomendation of honda AGAINST flushing with machine? > > Secondly, it doesn't matter if the dealership has and tries to sell the > > services of such a machine. The only real question is, is it good for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > TOYOTA or HONDA which are not only not recomended but HARMFULL? > Dont you think that manufacturer would forbid selling such services? Nope. Happens all the time. Now, if the manufacturer's area representative gets wind of too much crap going on (not bloody likely in the case of GM and Ford and Chrysler), if the customers bother to complain directly to the manufacturer in such a way that it gets their attention, the dealership might have to answer to the manufacturer in some way or another. But the dealership is an independent businessman, and there are strong laws regarding his right to do business and his relationship with the manufacturer. In the end, most dealerships just do what they think they can get away with. Their goal is to MAKE MONEY. Period. > > Does the manufacturer specify the procedure? If so, show me the > > specification. > > Do not know such specification. do not have access to service manuals. If they don't specify it, and/or you don't know if they specify it, then why assume they DO specify it? Absent a specific recommendation to do so, don't you think it's better to assume NOT to do it and instead do what it is they actually specify? >> > Secondly, it doesn't matter if the dealership has and tries to sell the >> > services of such a machine. The only real question is, is it good for [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > In the end, most dealerships just do what they think they can get away > with. Their goal is to MAKE MONEY. Period. Not very convincing argument... If in fact a strong manufacturer recomendation AGAINST using such machines existed if would be easy to get on the dealers back for doing something to the cars which manufacturer recomended against. >> > Does the manufacturer specify the procedure? If so, show me the >> > specification. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Absent a specific recommendation to do so, don't you think it's better > to assume NOT to do it and instead do what it is they actually specify? I do not assume it. You seem to cut the last, important part of my message. <you:> > Honda specifies a repeated drain/fill/drive procedure to exchange the > fluid, and recommends against using a flush machine. There's a reason > for that, and it doesn't have anything to do with foreign or > contaminated fluids. <me:> Can you show me such recomendation of honda AGAINST flushing with machine? Well, can you? I highly recommend you get your AT flushed ASAP. Let us know how it works out. >>> > Secondly, it doesn't matter if the dealership has and tries to sell >>> > the services of such a machine. The only real question is, is it good [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > Well, can you? > I highly recommend you get your AT flushed ASAP. > Let us know how it works out. Have you wrongly understood I am a flushing advocate? It is wrong. I do not have my own opinion and I am not a mechanic. I came here to ask questions, but answers I am getting are not making much sense... > > I highly recommend you get your AT flushed ASAP. > > Let us know how it works out. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > not a mechanic. I came here to ask questions, but > answers I am getting are not making much sense... The answer you got from jim beam at the beginning of the thread made perfect sense, anything else was the result of you being an a.s. >> > I highly recommend you get your AT flushed ASAP. >> > Let us know how it works out. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The answer you got from jim beam at the beginning of the thread made > perfect sense, anything else was the result of you being an a.s. I just ask questions... if this makes me an a.s than be it. > I highly recommend you get your AT flushed ASAP. Let us know how it works > out. hehehehehe You're mean. I like it. > What really is the difference? Scale of dilution of dirty fluid? > Flushing will kill my transmission but draining fluid will help? > I do not quite get it. Would you care to explain? -------------------------- MURPHY'S LAW DICTATES THAT the goofs at Monkey Lube have an 80% chance of hooking up the FLUSHING machine BACKWARDS, which evenly distributes the contents of your HONDA internal filter throughout your tranny. That's not a good thing. When _you_ drain-n-fill, you wipe off the magnetic drain plug. You drive it a few hours and drain-n-fill again. Guess what, you've removed a bunch more particles and you've got about 2/3rds of your fluid replaced. Because you've cleaned off the drain plug magnet, it continues to captivate all remaining metal filings. Cheap insurance / better shifting. Look into the TSB as well, but change your ATF just the same. 'Curly' > MURPHY'S LAW DICTATES THAT the goofs at Monkey Lube have an 80% chance > of hooking up the FLUSHING machine BACKWARDS, which evenly distributes > the contents of your HONDA internal filter throughout your tranny. We were talking about doing transmission flush at the dealer. > That's not a good thing. When _you_ drain-n-fill, you wipe off the > magnetic drain plug. You drive it a few hours and drain-n-fill again. I have found transmission drain plug in my toyota camry. Does 2004 honda accord I4 have similar drain plug? That is a positive surprise since most of the cars do not have drain plugs on transmission and you have to dick with the sucking fluid through the dipstick tube... :-) Or removing transmission pan and resealing it after the wokr. > Guess what, you've removed a bunch more particles and you've got about > 2/3rds of your fluid replaced. Because you've cleaned off the drain plug > magnet, it continues to captivate all remaining metal filings. Cheap > insurance / better shifting. With the flush you will have almost all fluid replaced, so it should be much better: 100% new fluid :-) > Look into the TSB as well, but change your ATF just the same. What TSB should I look into? >> MURPHY'S LAW DICTATES THAT the goofs at Monkey Lube have an 80% chance >> of hooking up the FLUSHING machine BACKWARDS, which evenly distributes >> the contents of your HONDA internal filter throughout your tranny. > > We were talking about doing transmission flush at the dealer. given that the honda factory maintenance specs specifically say to /not/ flush, i think you're not understanding what you're being told. or you're not talking with the right people. >> That's not a good thing. When _you_ drain-n-fill, you wipe off the >> magnetic drain plug. You drive it a few hours and drain-n-fill again. > > I have found transmission drain plug in my toyota camry. > Does 2004 honda accord I4 have similar drain plug? yes. > That is a positive surprise since most of the cars do not > have drain plugs on transmission and you have to dick > with the sucking fluid through the dipstick tube... :-) > Or removing transmission pan and resealing it after the wokr. ok, you're not experienced with japanese vehicles. you're right, many domestics and imports like bmw do not have drains. but honda and toyota do. they're better made, designed to be serviceable, and last many times longer. >> Guess what, you've removed a bunch more particles and you've got about >> 2/3rds of your fluid replaced. Because you've cleaned off the drain [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > What TSB should I look into? tegger has already told you. bottom line, you sound like a kid that doesn't want to listen. that's ok, but don't keep wasting our time with it. going forward, i have some recommendations: 1. stop asking for advice from experienced [current/ex] pros if you don't want to know. 2. buy the honda service manual from helminc.com so you can answer all these basic questions yourself. 3. sign up for an evening course in basic vehicle maintenance. as for your transmission, go ahead and do whatever you want in terms of the fluid. treated right, honda automatics routinely last 300k+ miles. go ahead and perform your experiment, then let us know how yours lasts and shifts 12 months from now. i've experienced that experiment myself and have told you how it works out. many others here can report the same, all from direct personal experience. >>> MURPHY'S LAW DICTATES THAT the goofs at Monkey Lube have an 80% chance >>> of hooking up the FLUSHING machine BACKWARDS, which evenly distributes [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > flush, i think you're not understanding what you're being told. or > you're not talking with the right people. The dealership is not right people? Who is then? If you go back couple of posts in this thread you will notice I was refering to an experience with TOYOTA not honda dealer. >>> That's not a good thing. When _you_ drain-n-fill, you wipe off the >>> magnetic drain plug. You drive it a few hours and drain-n-fill again. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > do. they're better made, designed to be serviceable, and last many > times longer. I am happy to hear that toyota is not an exception. I have never own a gm, chrystler nor ford made vehicle. >>> Guess what, you've removed a bunch more particles and you've got about >>> 2/3rds of your fluid replaced. Because you've cleaned off the drain [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> > tegger has already told you. OK, I see tegger post now. He is mentioning TSB 00-012 which affects only certain civics. It is not general statement about all cars. > bottom line, you sound like a kid that doesn't want to listen. > that's ok, but don't keep wasting our time with it. Please, dont be rude. Nobody forces you to answer my questions. If you think you are wasting your time - dont do it. > going forward, i have some recommendations: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > these basic questions yourself. > 3. sign up for an evening course in basic vehicle maintenance. I have a recomendation for you: READ THE WHOLE THREAD YOU TAKE THE PART IN. If you read my post in this thread carefully, you would learn that my question was related to toyota dealership recomendation about my 1995 camry. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.honda/msg/3c2186a7eb7a2db8 > as for your transmission, go ahead and do whatever you want in terms of > the fluid. treated right, honda automatics routinely last 300k+ miles. > go ahead and perform your experiment, then let us know how yours > lasts and shifts 12 months from now. i've experienced that experiment > myself and have told you how it works out. many others here can report > the same, all from direct personal experience. You were all talking about doing a flush in "Monkey Lube" places. Not at the dealership dealing exclusivly in one type of vehicles. How what you said apply to what I asked for? You simply have not answered my question. > > given that the honda factory maintenance specs specifically say to /not/ > > flush, i think you're not understanding what you're being told. or > > you're not talking with the right people. > > The dealership is not right people? Who is then? No, the dealership service department has its own agenda for making money--and that is frequently at odds with what the manufacturer says. The "right people" are the manufacturers. They create the service manuals. Get the service manual and follow its direction. Meanwhile, the dealership will do whatever it takes to make money. If that means lying to you to try to convince you to spend money for a procedure that the manufacturer VERY SPECIFICALLY recommends AGAINST, they will. They end up with the money, and you end up with the repair bill a few months afterward. > If you go back couple of posts in this thread you will notice > I was refering to an experience with TOYOTA not honda dealer. It doesn't matter WHAT dealership you're talking about. They all do business the same. The trick is to find one that is capable and understands the manufacturer's product and recommendations, and is willing to do the work that the manufacturer specifies in an honest manner. Those dealerships exist, but you as an owner have to ask the right questions. >> > given that the honda factory maintenance specs specifically say to /not/ >> > flush, i think you're not understanding what you're being told. or [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The "right people" are the manufacturers. They create the service > manuals. Get the service manual and follow its direction. If something is not in the service manual it does not automaticaly mean manufacturer is recomending against the procedure... > Meanwhile, the dealership will do whatever it takes to make money. If > that means lying to you to try to convince you to spend money for a > procedure that the manufacturer VERY SPECIFICALLY recommends AGAINST, > they will. They end up with the money, and you end up with the repair > bill a few months afterward. I still wait to see such recomendation against using machine. Could you show it to me, please? >> If you go back couple of posts in this thread you will notice >> I was refering to an experience with TOYOTA not honda dealer. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > work that the manufacturer specifies in an honest manner. Those > dealerships exist, but you as an owner have to ask the right questions. As a consumer, a car user, I need to know what exactly is wrong in using the machine to flush the transmission fluid and paying cheaper ($99) than paying for two drain&fill services (2x$69). The method using a machine is cheaper and seems to do the job better than two drain&fill routines. I have already know, Elmo, that you do not know the details on why machine is "wrong" and what bad "things" does it do to your tranny. If anybody on this newsgroup knows details and wants to share them with me than I would be happy to read about it. But please do not tell me that flush done at "Monkey Lube" place will infest my honda's transmission with some gm or ford transmission fluid living bugs :-) We are talking about flush done at the honda/toyota dealership, who deal with the one brand of the cars. BTW - anybody knows a link to some good description of how such machine works and showing where is the risk of hooking it up in reverse or adding some old fluids to your transmission ? > As a consumer, a car user, I need to know what exactly is wrong in using > the machine to flush the transmission fluid and paying cheaper ($99) > than paying for two drain&fill services (2x$69). You don't pay two drain/fill services as separate items. You pay for the Honda-recommended fluid replacement, which is more than a single drain/fill but is a separate procedure with its own price. You really don't get out much, do you. >> As a consumer, a car user, I need to know what exactly is wrong in using >> the machine to flush the transmission fluid and paying cheaper ($99) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the Honda-recommended fluid replacement, which is more than a single > drain/fill but is a separate procedure with its own price. From my experience dealerships do not offer simple drain&fill. They switched to offer machine flush. > You really don't get out much, do you. What are you trying to achive using such rude comments? Do you think they are valid arguments in this debat? Please provide me with a proof of manuafacturer recomending against using flush machines or admit such recomendation does not exist. >> > given that the honda factory maintenance specs specifically say to >> > /not/ [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > they will. They end up with the money, and you end up with the repair > bill a few months afterward. As an example, when the epa insisted that freon had to be recycled, my Toyota dealer apparently felt that he wasn't making enuf money with his Vampire freon recycling machine so he would recommend to customers with older Toyotas and perfectly working ac's, like me, to replace their freon. I told the dealer to take a hike and change my oil and filter as requested. >> No, the dealership service department has its own agenda for making >> money--and that is frequently at odds with what the manufacturer says. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > older Toyotas and perfectly working ac's, like me, to replace their freon. > I told the dealer to take a hike and change my oil and filter as requested. So the dealer went against EPA recomendation or not? >>> No, the dealership service department has its own agenda for making >>> money--and that is frequently at odds with what the manufacturer says. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > So the dealer went against EPA recomendation or not? If I were you I would hang up your keys and call a taxi. >>>> No, the dealership service department has its own agenda for making >>>> money--and that is frequently at odds with what the manufacturer says. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > If I were you I would hang up your keys and call a taxi. Really, why is that? Maybe you simply answer the question? >>>> MURPHY'S LAW DICTATES THAT the goofs at Monkey Lube have an 80% >>>> chance of hooking up the FLUSHING machine BACKWARDS, which evenly [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > How what you said apply to what I asked for? > You simply have not answered my question. you know, for a guy that wants FREE EXPERT ADVICE, you're being amazingly thick headed and remarkably obstreperous. i suggest you pay attention and quit the attitude. > you know, for a guy that wants FREE EXPERT ADVICE, you're being > amazingly thick headed and remarkably obstreperous. i suggest you pay > attention and quit the attitude. I am sorry, but you do not sign your posts with any "expert" name... For a stranger like me who does not know you in person, your answers here look like any other opinion from any random guy on the street. That is why my investigative mode of asking many questions and "being an a.s"... If you want to be read as an expert than state who you are in every post you write here... Everything will be clear then and people will know who is the expert and who is the user here. > > you know, for a guy that wants FREE EXPERT ADVICE, you're being > > amazingly thick headed and remarkably obstreperous. i suggest you pay [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > you are in every post you write here... Everything will be clear then > and people will know who is the expert and who is the user here. A 15 second search will show you who's who in here and whether they know what they are talking about or not, what's so hard about that? There is no need for them to state who they are in each post. I read about 10 threads before I posted my first question and knew who was going to give me the correct advice before said question was asked, it's pretty simple. >> > you know, for a guy that wants FREE EXPERT ADVICE, you're being >> > amazingly thick headed and remarkably obstreperous. i suggest you pay [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > A 15 second search will show you who's who in here and whether they > know what they are talking about or not, what's so hard about that? What would I be looking for during this 15 seconds search? But ok, prove to me your search skills... :-) Tell me who Jim is and where he works! What makes him an expert in your eyes? Maybe ad hominem arguments he makes against TE Chea when he suggested using transmission fluid filter inline to the radiator? Just because somebody posts here a lot does not make him an expert. > There is no need for them to state who they are in each post. I read > about 10 threads before I posted my first question and knew who was > going to give me the correct advice before said question was asked, > it's pretty simple. You must be very bright then... For me, not being a mechanic I cannot judge good advice from bad one. It is simple: if I knew what to do with the transmission I would not ask around. > >> > you know, for a guy that wants FREE EXPERT ADVICE, you're being > >> > amazingly thick headed and remarkably obstreperous. i suggest you pay [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > What makes him an expert in your eyes? If you have so many questions about the very people you are asking for advice from, then you shouldn't be seeking advice from them to start with. ;) Jim is giving the same advice as the others, don't flush your tranny. How many people do you need to give you the same advice before you believe it? 10? 20? 100? I don't care where Jim works, I don't care where anyone here works, all I care about is getting 200k or more out of my Honda and I trust the opinion of those who have done so before me. I found answers to all my questions here, transmission, rear diff, brake pads, rotors, sway-bar links, valve adjustment intervals, importance of Honda fluids, etc. etc. > Maybe ad hominem arguments he makes against TE Chea when > he suggested using transmission fluid filter inline to the radiator? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I'm bright enough to know this exchange of words is not going to help me achieve 200k one iota. >> > A 15 second search will show you who's who in here and whether they >> > know what they are talking about or not, what's so hard about that? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > advice from, then you shouldn't be seeking advice from them to start > with. ;) You have not answere my question. > Jim is giving the same advice as the others, don't flush your tranny. > How many people do you need to give you the same advice before you > believe it? 10? 20? 100? It is not in the number of people but what kind of people. > I don't care where Jim works, I don't care where anyone here works, > all I care about is getting 200k or more out of my Honda and I trust > the opinion of those who have done so before me. I found answers to > all my questions here, transmission, rear diff, brake pads, rotors, > sway-bar links, valve adjustment intervals, importance of Honda > fluids, etc. etc. So how can you tell that a random opinion signed with a random nickname is good for you or bad if you do not care who the people giving you advice are? >> > There is no need for them to state who they are in each post. I read >> > about 10 threads before I posted my first question and knew who was [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I'm bright enough to know this exchange of words is not going to help > me achieve 200k one iota. Then why did you take part in this discussion in the first place? If you care to share your 2 cents take the responsibility for what you said and do not escape from discussion at the first inconvenient question. > It is not in the number of people but what kind of people. When you go to a Model T convention, for example, do you question everyone there? Do you assume that NO ONE there knows anything about Model Ts? You've come to a Honda newsgroup, populated by many experienced users. Yet you question everyone as if he knows nothing. It's you who knows nothing. And you will continue to know nothing. >> It is not in the number of people but what kind of people. > > When you go to a Model T convention, for example, do you question > everyone there? Do you assume that NO ONE there knows anything about > Model Ts? The single fact that someone is on some convention does not make him an expert in the field. Convention is not for experts only and gather people WHO WANT TO LEARN about the subject. Sometimes there are people who know NOTHING about the subject and just starting their learning process... See a fault in your reasoning? If you go to convention and assume EVERYBODY is the expert than I wish you food luck in your life... > You've come to a Honda newsgroup, populated by many experienced users. > Yet you question everyone as if he knows nothing. > > It's you who knows nothing. And you will continue to know nothing. But I am still on the Honda newsgroup and maybe somebody will confuse me with some expert if there is nothing really telling you who the expert is here and who is not... Think about it... :-) I have my own rules who do I respect as an expert and who I do not. I allow posibility that a random poster on this newsgroup might know very little about honda cars, similarly like I do know very little and I am a member of this newsgroup. So that is why I would like to know who am I talking with - Jim or Elmo tell me very little or nothing about your expertise in car repari - sorry. If I knew you are a engineer at the Honda plant, or at least a technician there - that would be a whole different story... :-) > >> MURPHY'S LAW DICTATES THAT the goofs at Monkey Lube have an 80% chance > >> of hooking up the FLUSHING machine BACKWARDS, which evenly distributes [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > flush, i think you're not understanding what you're being told. or > you're not talking with the right people. No, he desperately wants the world to be different than it is. Toward his goal, then, he sticks his head in the sand and ignores reality. It's like the people who want an oil change interval listed in the owner's manual, and refuse to listen to the maintenance minder--even though the maintenance minder IS the keeper of the manufacturer specified oil change interval. So, instead, they simply make up an interval out of thin air, and claim it to be superior to what the Honda engineers say. >> >> MURPHY'S LAW DICTATES THAT the goofs at Monkey Lube have an 80% chance >> >> of hooking up the FLUSHING machine BACKWARDS, which evenly distributes [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > No, he desperately wants the world to be different than it is. Toward > his goal, then, he sticks his head in the sand and ignores reality. What are you talking about? I am a confused car USER (not a mechanic) who is facing opposite mechanic recommendation coming from the dealership. I am expected to make a decision based on two opposite recomendation as a lay man, not knowing pros/cons. Can you quote Honda's or Toyota's recomendation against flushing with machine INCLUDING the reasoning given? > It's like the people who want an oil change interval listed in the > owner's manual, and refuse to listen to the maintenance minder--even > though the maintenance minder IS the keeper of the manufacturer > specified oil change interval. So, instead, they simply make up an > interval out of thin air, and claim it to be superior to what the Honda > engineers say. What is has to do with the discussed subject? > >> given that the honda factory maintenance specs specifically say to /not/ > >> flush, i think you're not understanding what you're being told. or [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I am a confused car USER (not a mechanic) who is facing > opposite mechanic recommendation coming from the dealership. If you're the car USER, as in OWNER, then you have an owner's guide to maintenance. Does this guide specify any transmission fluid replacement at all? If you really want to know, you can buy the manufacturer's service manual. But don't blindly listen to the dealership. Their job is to make money--as in, take it from your pocket and put it into theirs. If they can make that happen by your being ignorant, they will capitalize on that fact. > Can you quote Honda's or Toyota's recomendation against > flushing with machine INCLUDING the reasoning given? Do they have to give a reason? Do they give a reason why they recommend changing the oil? 2002 Honda Odyssey owner's manual, p. 295: To thoroughly flush the transmission, the technician should drain and refill it with Honda ATF-Z1 (Automatic Transmission Fluid), then drive the vehicle a short distance. Do this three times. Then drain and refill the transmission a final time. Now, what about that specified procedure is ambiguous? Why do you want NOT to follow the specified procedure? > If you're the car USER, as in OWNER, then you have an owner's guide to > maintenance. > > Does this guide specify any transmission fluid replacement at all? Yes, it does. Where are you going with such question? Are you trying to say AT fluid replacement is not needed at all? :-) >> Can you quote Honda's or Toyota's recomendation against >> flushing with machine INCLUDING the reasoning given? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Now, what about that specified procedure is ambiguous? Why do you want > NOT to follow the specified procedure? And where do you have here "the manufacturer VERY SPECIFICALLY recommends AGAINST" flushing with machine ? Do not make stuff up, please... One more thing - I do not have service manual for my honda but I have one for my old 95 camry. They specify to replace the fluid if it smells burnt or is black. They state tranny total volume to be 5.9 liters. Drain and fill only 2.5 liters. So one drain and fill replaces only 42% of old fluid with new, not even half. Doing this twice will replace only 42% of the remaining mixture, so you will be left with almost 25% of old gunk in the transmission. Compare this with 100% machine flush... > And where do you have here "the manufacturer VERY SPECIFICALLY recommends > AGAINST" flushing with machine ? Do not make stuff up, please... I don't. I've spoken with a Honda zone rep--you know, the manufacturer's representative who has to pay out for warranty claims and the like. >> And where do you have here "the manufacturer VERY SPECIFICALLY recommends >> AGAINST" flushing with machine ? Do not make stuff up, please... > > I don't. I've spoken with a Honda zone rep--you know, the > manufacturer's representative who has to pay out for warranty > claims and the like. Sorry, but I would preffer to see official paper from Honda. Something like tsr or service manual amendment, etc. So far you were not able to produce manufacturer recomendation AGAINST using AT flush machines. snip >>Can you quote Honda's or Toyota's recomendation against >>flushing with machine INCLUDING the reasoning given? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Now, what about that specified procedure is ambiguous? Why do you want > NOT to follow the specified procedure? Personally, I find that procedure pretty wasteful and convoluted. By simply providing a means to drain the converter as well as the tranny would simplify the process. I'm wondering why the environutz have not picked up on this by the lube companies love it... JT > Personally, I find that procedure pretty wasteful and convoluted. Me too. > By simply providing a means to drain the converter as well as the tranny would simplify the process. Maybe it is not possible due to locking some air in the tranny during refill or something like that? Who knows... Machine seems to be a reasonable way to go but nobody can produce here argument against using such machine, unfortunatelly. > I'm wondering why the environutz have not picked up on this by the lube companies love it... Lube companies love it because it saves service time and the tranny fluid. >> Personally, I find that procedure pretty wasteful and convoluted. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Machine seems to be a reasonable way to go but nobody can > produce here argument against using such machine, unfortunatelly. ------------------------------- Honda designed the tranny. They know ZipHead Lube will hook up the hoses backwards (and probably sell you non-Honda fluid). They have a simple answer: Don't do it. Read it for yourself: http://www.hondasuv.com/members/showthread.php?t=22479& 'Curly' >> Maybe it is not possible due to locking some air in the tranny >> during refill or something like that? Who knows... [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Read it for yourself: > http://www.hondasuv.com/members/showthread.php?t=22479& Finally somebody with anything on paper from Honda. Thank you, now I am convinced. Now I need a tip from you guys how to make sure the dealer will do what I asked him to do and do not use machine instead? I guess the only way to make sure is to do it myself :-) > Now I need a tip from you guys how to make sure the dealer > will do what I asked him to do and do not use machine instead? > I guess the only way to make sure is to do it myself :-) ------------------------------ The look on your face is worth the price of admission when you see the snot-ball of metallic goop clinging to the magnetic drain plug. It's so thick you'll think the plug is held in place by it. DIY. You'll be a HERO when your tranny starts shifting better. 'Curly' >> Now I need a tip from you guys how to make sure the dealer >> will do what I asked him to do and do not use machine instead? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > DIY. You'll be a HERO when your tranny starts shifting better. OK, I will do it. >>> Maybe it is not possible due to locking some air in the tranny >>> during refill or something like that? Who knows... [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > will do what I asked him to do and do not use machine instead? > I guess the only way to make sure is to do it myself :-) geeze. read the stuff on tegger.com. read the tsb's linked from tegger.com. read the google archives. and quit being such an argumentative jerk - it's not like you're actually /paying/ people here to suck up your attitude. >> Finally somebody with anything on paper from Honda. >> Thank you, now I am convinced. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > argumentative jerk - it's not like you're actually /paying/ people here > to suck up your attitude. As I said before - if this is waste of time to you, then stop doing this. Participation in this newsgroup is volountary, if you did not know. >>> Maybe it is not possible due to locking some air in the tranny >>> during refill or something like that? Who knows... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Finally somebody with anything on paper from Honda. > Thank you, now I am convinced. Why are you so easily convinced? It could be a fake posting. You should get you AT flushed. I'm convinced. >>> Honda designed the tranny. They know ZipHead Lube will hook up the hoses >>> backwards (and probably sell you non-Honda fluid). They have a simple [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Why are you so easily convinced? It could be a fake posting. > You should get you AT flushed. I'm convinced. Jokes aside we still did not talk about the second part of the question: about the myth related to the claims about "beneficial particles in the old tranny fluid which suppose to help transmission to work better than with the new fluid", anybody with opinion on this matter ? > >>> Maybe it is not possible due to locking some air in the tranny > >>> during refill or something like that? Who knows... [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Why are you so easily convinced? It could be a fake posting. You should > get you AT flushed. I'm convinced.- Hide quoted text - Me too. I just changed mine a few weeks ago but I'm heading over to In- N-Out Lube this afternoon to get it flushed. That flushing machine has the word "PRO" on it in big letters so it must be good. I'm going to have them fill it with Marvel Mystery Oil instead of Z1 because some guy on Yahoo said it works better. He posted that he worked for Honda R&D and I believe him. > Me too. I just changed mine a few weeks ago but I'm heading over to In- > N-Out Lube this afternoon to get it flushed. That flushing machine has > the word "PRO" on it in big letters so it must be good. I'm going to > have them fill it with Marvel Mystery Oil instead of Z1 because some > guy on Yahoo said it works better. He posted that he worked for Honda > R&D and I believe him. I am starting to see faint signs of thinking in your posts.... Finally I was able to drive my arguments through, I guess :-) >> Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >'Curly' Agree with this. Dirty fluid should be changed. I certainly wouldn't replace the transmission based on one computer code. > Hi, > > I took my 98 civic to an authorized honda dealer. they read the code > P0730 - Incorrect gear ratio. Now they suggest replacing the > transmission for 2500 parts and labor. Why did you post this identical message independently to at least three newsgroups? Each group now has no idea what has been posted in reply in the other groups. That's not smart. > Some q's: > > Is there any chance honda is wrong "Honda" is not wrong, the *dealer* is wrong. The dealer is not Honda. > in saying the only thing to do is > get a new transmission. There is something wrong with the car, the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > slightly (almost impersptably) when i step on the gas after starting > it. There is a TSB out on exactly your problem. The fix involves replacing the linear solenoid, plus replacing the ATF with the correct Honda Z1. Ask your dealer about TSB 00-012. Not all Civics are affected, just the ones in a certain VIN range.  SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > Anything I can do besides replacing my tranmission? Trade it ASAP to a dealer who thinks he's ripping you off. > The dealer said > just baby it and don't change the transmission fluid as this is any > metal particles in it now keep it running fine, so don't change it. Funny comment. IMO they said that to be sure your transmission grinds itself to death. > Hi, > > I took my 98 civic to an authorized honda dealer. That was the biggest mistake of all. -Slim |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2009 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.