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Car Forum / Honda Cars / October 2007Hello Again... I'm back....
Been out of the newsgroup thing for a while, I moved from a desktop computer to a laptop, and have difficultied getting the laptop to read news groups when both at work (wifi) and here at home (dialup). Anyway, I left Firestone a year and a half ago and have been working at a Subaru dealership. I'm the "Used Car Guy" If it aint a Subaru, it's mine. The boss is sending me to Subaru School this spring, going to make a honest man of me. I havent done a lot of Diag lately, mostly leaks and stuff, do my diag skills are slipping. Also noticed many of the tools that were usefull at Firestone are setting and getting dusty. Ball joint tools and such. The Subie is a great car to work on and I thing I will be here untill it's time to quit. The pay per job is good, and many jobs that are difficult on many other cars are a breeze on a subie. I was handycapped for a while, I had no access to an auto data base untill a week ago. The shop finally subcrribed to AllData, and I was allowed to put it on my laptop. It's great, I now have access to most auto stuff at home now! If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me. Tegger, I think of you whenever I remove a tie rod end or a ball joint with a 4 lb hammer in under 10 seconds. Someday I will have to video it for you. Take care Steve Ase Master Tech. > Tegger, I think of you whenever I remove a tie rod end or a ball joint > with a 4 lb hammer in under 10 seconds. Someday I will have to video > it for you. Hey, welcome back! We need some actual working techs in this group. The mechanic I usually go to is a big Subaru fan. He even races them in the winter. I have access to all the Honda TSB's and HSN publications, but precious little outside that except what I can scrounge from some people I know (and some of that seems to not be as accurate as I need it to be). So anything you can add would be great. If you video that balljoint thing, I'd love to see it. I could post it on the relevant FAQ page about balljoints.  SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ <snip for clarity> > If you video that balljoint thing, I'd love to see it. I could post it on > the relevant FAQ page about balljoints. please don't. it's extremely bad practice and is guaranteed to f-up when done by an amateur. especially on something older that's had a chance to rust and seize. encourage the use of the proper tool and safe working practice. knowing how to remove a lug nut with a chisel doesn't mean you should actually do it that way. > please don't. it's extremely bad practice and is guaranteed to f-up when > done by an amateur. especially on something older that's had a chance to > rust and seize. I watch it being done every day, by 4 other Master Techs. I will look tommorow and see what the "Proper" way and tools are, and if provided by Subaru or the Snap-on dealer. I have never damaged a car doing this or seen one damaged in this method.. If it don't get free in a few good wacks (or has tons of rust on it), you may have other problems. It is a trick of the trade, nothing more, and it works. The one thing you learn in a shop is what techniques you can use to save time. Take Care, Steve >> please don't. it's extremely bad practice and is guaranteed to f-up when >> done by an amateur. especially on something older that's had a chance to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > The one thing you learn in a shop is what techniques you can use to save > time. no sh.t. but have you ever stopped to think /why/ this stuff loosens when you hit it? it's because it's being deformed, that's why. 1. with a ball joint, its factory tightness and integrity is assured after it's pressed together. this is a precision process. that can however be destroyed by indiscriminate use of a hammer by locally deforming the socket, or even the ball. when disassembling a joint with the proper tool, all pressure is applied to the suspension member and the mounting pillar of the joint, not to the ball or the ball housing. therefore the ball is never overloaded, cannot be inadvertently loosened or deformed. or worse, hammered to initiate fatigue. 2. with a tie rod end, where it bolts to the rack [rack and pinion], apart from the same issues with the ball joint as described above, hammering so the rack receives blows brinells the rack bearing in the housing. again, this may not be immediately apparent, but it will shorten the life of the rack. or even crack the alloy housing. 3. metal fatigue is commonly initiated by surface damage. hammer marks are classic for this. fatigue breakage won't happen immediately, only when the car is a long way away so nobody will associate all the carnage with you. 4. all this applies to every other suspension member that receives blows in this fashion. all bearings, rolling element bearings, ball & socket bearings, sliding journal bearings, /none/ are designed for this kind of impact loading. sure, suspension gets big loading from riding the car over potholes, etc. but examined with an accelerometer, /none/ of this, thanks to the tire, is as severe as the loading inflicted by hammer blows. wheel bearings can take hundreds of thousands of miles of road abuse. but the impact of one single blow with a hammer can brinell them and they'll fail in a few miles afterwards. bottom line, there's a book with a factory procedure. that exists for you to follow. if i caught your dumb a.s hammering a customer's car to split the ball joints "just to save time", i'd hammer your dumb a.s out of a job on the spot. >>please don't. it's extremely bad practice and is guaranteed to f-up when >>done by an amateur. especially on something older that's had a chance to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Take Care, Steve Right you are! The sharp blow releases the tapered fit via the "shock" application. No stress on the actual components. I first learned of the techinque from the family mechanic thirty-five years ago and nothing has changed much in the way of design of joints... JT > The sharp blow releases the tapered fit via the "shock" > application. No stress on the actual components. I bought a ball joint (tapered fit blah blah) separator tool a couple of years ago and like it. However, last month at the junkyard, while going after a control arm and not having the separator tool with me, I tried the "whack" with the hammer approach. It worked great, and my sense is that I spare wear and tear on the ball joint boot, for one thing. The (highly regarded and thoughtful) auto suspension course instructor I had a few years ago also approved of this technique. > I first learned of the techinque from the family mechanic > thirty-five years ago and nothing has changed much in the > way of design of joints... Good luck in your new Subaru job, StephenW. Always interesting to hear about techs' careers. Though I do worry about what you folks do to preserve your physical health... take good care; safety first. (I ain't perfect at it but I do constantly try to think, "Is there a safer way and/or a way that will spare my back; elbow tendons; knees; etc.?") >>The sharp blow releases the tapered fit via the "shock" >>application. No stress on the actual components. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > hammer approach. It worked great, and my sense is that I > spare wear and tear on the ball joint boot, for one thing. Exactly. Them thar' boots are hard to replace so one should avoid splitting 'em. > The (highly regarded and thoughtful) auto suspension course > instructor I had a few years ago also approved of this > technique. He's probably "old" school. JT (Older than dirt...) >>> The sharp blow releases the tapered fit via the "shock" application. >>> No stress on the actual components. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Them thar' boots are hard to replace so one should avoid splitting 'em. i wouldn't call a pickle fork a "joint separator" - it's a weapon of last resort and guaranteed to wreck boots. >> The (highly regarded and thoughtful) auto suspension course instructor >> I had a few years ago also approved of this technique. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > (Older than dirt...) >>>> The sharp blow releases the tapered fit via the "shock" application. >>>> No stress on the actual components. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > i wouldn't call a pickle fork a "joint separator" - it's a weapon of > last resort and guaranteed to wreck boots. That I'll agree with but OTOH, if the part is to be discarded, it doesn't make any difference. JT >>>>> The sharp blow releases the tapered fit via the "shock" >>>>> application. No stress on the actual components. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > JT if the part is to be discarded, go ahead and use a hammer! > I bought a ball joint (tapered fit blah blah) separator tool a couple of > years ago and like it. However, last month at the junkyard, while going > after a control arm and not having the separator tool with me, I tried the > "whack" with the hammer approach. It worked great, and my sense is that I > spare wear and tear on the ball joint boot, for one thing. The mother of necessity.... > The (highly regarded and thoughtful) auto suspension course instructor I > had a few years ago also approved of this technique. > Good luck in your new Subaru job, StephenW. Always interesting to hear > about techs' careers. Though I do worry about what you folks do to > preserve your physical health... take good care; safety first. (I ain't > perfect at it but I do constantly try to think, "Is there a safer way > and/or a way that will spare my back; elbow tendons; knees; etc.?") You seem to be more concerned with my health than I am. I just rolled over 45 years of age and am doing great. I often get mistaken for being in my 30's and I've got 20 years in the AF under my belt. (12 years aircraft mech, 6 years as a building supervisor) A flightline has always seemed more dangerous thab a auto shop; the tires on a KC-135 weigh a lot more! I have never smoked and drink lightly. I have some hearing loss and my eyes are finally giving me fits- (thinking about lasik) I push myself to keep doing the difficult things to keep me limber. Dad and I like to hike 3 miles into our favorite lake with 60 lb backpacks. He's 71. When doing alignments you must do them with the rack leveled or "on its feet/stands" It's more difficult to do because you have to "duck walk" under the car and now the display screen is difficult to see, especially in the rear of the car. For the last 5 years I have consistently done it "correctly" for it's the best alignment and I didn't want to do it the lazy way then someday my body cant crouch down to do it. I keep hitting my head on things, and it's very tough- no stitches yet..... Other than that. I don't see it as being that dangerous in a shop; lifting things, Cuts and smashed body parts would be my biggest concerns. Working in (this) a dealership is great, much better than Firestone. 8-5 with a hour lunch beats 8-6 with no breaks. Even the boss meets us up in the breakroom for cards at lunch (rummy) I work one weekend a month vs. every weekend. A very casual shop. Now about my off work time. I finally had to miss some work last month. A skillsaw and I had a mishap; it bit my upper thigh. 4 1/2 inches long and just touched the muscle. 16 stitches on the outside. 2 hours later I walked out of the ER, and could have been back to work 2 days later; but I took a week off. Anyway, I'm more dangerous off work than on. Steve >> I bought a ball joint (tapered fit blah blah) separator >> tool a couple of years ago and like it. However, last [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > The mother of necessity.... I read about the "big hammer" approach here at the newsgroup, and also recalled it from my automotive suspension course, and went for it. :-) snip for brevity > Now about my off work time. I finally had to miss some > work last month. A [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > later; but I took a > week off. Ouch. Good for you for "'fessing up." (Not that you were hesitating.) I think it makes us safer. I broke my arm throwing a batting practice this past spring, using an unsafe format. I was lucky I was not killed and am grateful it was not a bad break. No more pitching for me. Kills me that some harp on safety and then go brag about driving 90 mph down the highway. Not you; others in this discussion. I am concerned about America's health in general, and any blue collar worker's health in particular. The nature of the work does, statistically speaking, tend to cost them much more health-wise than a white collar job. Glad to hear your health is good and you're careful, though. >> I bought a ball joint (tapered fit blah blah) separator tool a couple of >> years ago and like it. However, last month at the junkyard, while going >> after a control arm and not having the separator tool with me, I tried the >> "whack" with the hammer approach. It worked great, and my sense is that I >> spare wear and tear on the ball joint boot, for one thing. Regardless of what other people on this newsgroup have said, I would still very much enjoy seeing a video of this hammer technique in action. I believe that I tried it in the past without result, and would appreciate seeing how it is really done. StephenW, you sound like an interesting person! And you have endured criticism well. :) dan >>> I bought a ball joint (tapered fit blah blah) separator tool a couple >>> of years ago and like it. However, last month at the junkyard, while [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > dan It's real simple... Just a sharp blow (or two) on the adjacent forging containing the joint. JT Did a all data search, Honda shows the neat little tool for removing ball joints, but Subaru says "seperate ball joint" with no instructions. I'll go by the Honda Shop and ask how they do it, in the real world. Steve > Did a all data search, Honda shows the neat little tool for removing ball > joints, but Subaru says "seperate ball joint" with no instructions. why would they? if they don't actually tell you to use a 4lb hammer, why would you assume it's ok to use one??? > I'll go > by the Honda Shop and ask how they do it, in the real world. > Steve >> Did a all data search, Honda shows the neat little tool for removing >> ball joints, but Subaru says "seperate ball joint" with no >> instructions. > > why would they? if they don't actually tell you to use a 4lb hammer, > why would you assume it's ok to use one??? My mechanic also does the 4lb hammer thing. He's done that for the last 30 years or so. He explained to me what to do, but I've never worked up the nerve to try it. I've never actually watched him do it though. That's why I'm interested in StephenW's video. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>> Did a all data search, Honda shows the neat little tool for removing >>> ball joints, but Subaru says "seperate ball joint" with no [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > My mechanic also does the 4lb hammer thing. you had a ball joint fatigue and fail didn't you? did he ever do this to your car before that happened? > He's done that for the last 30 > years or so. He explained to me what to do, but I've never worked up the > nerve to try it. > > I've never actually watched him do it though. That's why I'm interested in > StephenW's video. jeepers... like i say, you can use a hammer and chisel to remove lug nuts, but that doesn't mean you should. and do any of these clowns ever decide to be aircraft techs? i sincerely hope not. >>>> Did a all data search, Honda shows the neat little tool for >>>> removing ball joints, but Subaru says "seperate ball joint" with no [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > you had a ball joint fatigue and fail didn't you? did he ever do this > to your car before that happened? My balljoint did not fail due to fatigue. It failed by seizing up due to rust. Once it seized up solid, the post then broke off. >> He's done that for the last 30 >> years or so. He explained to me what to do, but I've never worked up [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > nuts, but that doesn't mean you should. and do any of these clowns > ever decide to be aircraft techs? i sincerely hope not. jim, talk to some pro's. You'll find lots of them use this method. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>>>> Did a all data search, Honda shows the neat little tool for >>>>> removing ball joints, but Subaru says "seperate ball joint" with no [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > My balljoint did not fail due to fatigue. It failed by seizing up due to > rust. Once it seized up solid, the post then broke off. that was probably fatigue. >>> He's done that for the last 30 >>> years or so. He explained to me what to do, but I've never worked up [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > jim, talk to some pro's. You'll find lots of them use this method. i used to be a pro, thanks. where i worked, you wouldn't consider using a hammer to do this stuff unless it was on something to be discarded afterwards. >>>Did a all data search, Honda shows the neat little tool for removing >>>ball joints, but Subaru says "seperate ball joint" with no [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I've never actually watched him do it though. That's why I'm interested in > StephenW's video. Just remember that you do not hit the actual joint... Just the adjacent component such as a steering knuckle etc. The release is the result from "shock" from the blow. JT > If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me. Have you been following the thread entitled "'Black Box' information retention"? What do you know about that subject? I had some info given to me by a very knowledgeable person, but his info was more specific to Toyota, which he didn't tell me at first. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I had some info given to me by a very knowledgeable person, but his info > was more specific to Toyota, which he didn't tell me at first. I read it, and remember a bit of light info concerning it a few years ago, but have seen nothing of it "in the field" Next spring when they send me to the first Subaru Tech class I will ask the instructor what he knows of it in the Subaru line. Did the Windstar inner tie rod and hub assy; 3 hits to the side if the tie rod attach point and the tier rod was loose. Steve >>> If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me. >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Did the Windstar inner tie rod and hub assy; 3 hits to the side if the tie > rod attach point and the tier rod was loose. as were all the bearings after you brinelled them... use the correct freakin' tool and do what it says in the freakin' book. people don't bother to write procedures just so morons with 4lb hammers can ignore them. > as were all the bearings after you brinelled them... > > use the correct freakin' tool and do what it says in the freakin' book. > people don't bother to write procedures just so morons with 4lb hammers > can ignore them. Wow, quick reply. Car is fine, no damage to the new bearings. The three hits mearly jarred the tie rod end loose. I won't fail, Better not, Mom-in-law needs her van!!! Cheers! Steve >>>> If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me. >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > people don't bother to write procedures just so morons with 4lb hammers > can ignore them. Uh, the technique of removing tie rods/ball joints with a sharp blow to the side with a sizable ball peen has been used by zillions of mechanics for years ans is far better for the components than some of the separator tools available. JT >>>>> If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > for years ans is far better for the components than some of the > separator tools available. and zillions of "mechanics" rip off their customers with unnecessary maintenance like brake pad replacement after only 15k miles, replaced automatic transmissions when all it needs is a fluid change or a band adjusting, not done timing belt changes, etc. the list is endless. just because one incompetent trains another to do the same as them, doesn't mean they're not incompetent. bottom line, for all the reasons i stated earlier, hammering is incredibly bad practice. _don't_ do it. >>>>>> If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > bottom line, for all the reasons i stated earlier, hammering is > incredibly bad practice. _don't_ do it. You're defying history and the rest was pure rambling. JT >>>>>>> If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me. >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > JT did you read my explanatory post? >>>>>>>> If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me. >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > did you read my explanatory post? Yes I did but it is you who missed the basic point. Simply put, removing tie rods/ball joints by applying a sharp blow to the side of the steering knuckle etc. is a long time practice. So much so it is legend in the trade. The practice does not damage any components. If one were to purchase all the "special" tools recommended by manufacturers/dealers to do simple jobs, (tie rod design hasn't changed much in fifty years), the mechanics profit margin would be severely impacted. There's the "book" method and there's the smart method. I prefer to work "smart." JT >>>>>>>>> If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me. >>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > the side of the steering knuckle etc. is a long time practice. So much > so it is legend in the trade. The practice does not damage any components. dude, i'm sure you're sincere in that belief, and i respect that, but unfortunately that statement is simply not correct. there is tangible damage from this practice, most of which may not be immediately apparent, but it is nevertheless still there. to be fair, it may not have been much of an issue with detroit garbage that didn't last very long anyway and hammering damage was indistinguishable from poor quality, but in this day and age, particularly with modern vehicles and the more frequent use of aluminum suspension components, it's absolutely not acceptable to teach people something that is wrong. > If one were to purchase all the "special" tools recommended by > manufacturers/dealers to do simple jobs, (tie rod design hasn't changed > much in fifty years), the mechanics profit margin would be severely > impacted. so would sticking to the manufacturer service schedule! > There's the "book" method and there's the smart method. no, there's the book method and the book method. if it's not in the book don't do it. [1] > I prefer to work "smart." except that it's not. and if hammering damage initiates fatigue, it can be positively lethal. > JT 1. there's a famous case in aircraft accident investigation where engine separation occurred because the techs who were replacing an engine didn't do it right. the "book" method was to use a special hoist that lifted the engine exactly into position so that that the mounting bolts could all be fitted at once. but these guys were "smart" and they didn't "need" to buy that expensive hoist. so they used a forklift, got the engine positioned "about right", rammed in a couple of bolts, then left the engine to hang until they could re-shift and bring the other bolts into alignment. trouble was, these bolts are designed to fail on marginal overload and let the engine drop rather than damage the aircraft. being left to hang, while nothing was obviously damaged, initiated the failure process, so some while later, this engine separated on takeoff nearly causing a crash of a fully loaded, fully fueled plane. and these techs were guys with years of experience and who "knew what they were doing"!!! bottom line, don't ignore what's in the book. it may not spell out all the detail, but if it says to use a separator on a ball joint, and even gives details of that tool, there's a reason! and no, it's not to rip off the poor repair franchise that get to print money charging you $600 for a $34 timing belt replacement. >>>>>>>>>> If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me. >>>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > of a fully loaded, fully fueled plane. and these techs were guys with > years of experience and who "knew what they were doing"!!! I believe you are talking about an American Airlines 747 that lost its engine. Even worse the airlines did a cursory inspection and declared all other 747's safe. Thankfully a couple of mechanics weren't satisfied and took some engines off the planes and found more bolts ready to fail which forced all airlines to recheck the bolts carefully and avoiding disaster in the air. > bottom line, don't ignore what's in the book. it may not spell out all > the detail, but if it says to use a separator on a ball joint, and even > gives details of that tool, there's a reason! and no, it's not to rip off > the poor repair franchise that get to print money charging you $600 for a > $34 timing belt replacement. >>>>>>>>>>>If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me. >>>>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 99 lines] > forced all airlines to recheck the bolts carefully and avoiding disaster in > the air. No, he was referring to an American Airlines DC-10 that lost an engine during rotation in Chicago. While the engine was improperly installed, the loss of the aircraft and all aboard was due to a woefully hydraulic back up system (by design) in the DC-10. Another incident was Soux City but in that case, some survided a crash that should have been a routine landing again by total loss of hydraulics even though only one engine was involved. A very similar incident with a L-1011 resulted in a safe landing. In fact, the DC-10 may have been the worst design commercial aircraft of all time as other design deficiencies cause large loss of life from the effects of sudden depressurerization etc. OTOH, the L-1011 had a spotless LOL record from a manufacturing/design standpoint. >>>>>>>>>>>> If you need any info tegger, beam and mr. grumpie, Ping me. >>>>>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 105 lines] > No, he was referring to an American Airlines DC-10 that lost an engine > during rotation in Chicago. i can't recall the a/c we studied, [not relevant to the materials analysis] so i googled, and this appears to be a relatively common problem across many different a/c types. scary. the point is that damage is not readily apparent. in that respect, cars are no different to any other machine where the service tech's don't have the full background on every single aspect of design and operation. and how could they? who wants to do degrees and research just to swap out a driveshaft? but the techs /do/ need to read [and follow] the service manual, and that /was/ written by the people that know. > While the engine was improperly installed, the loss of the aircraft and > all aboard was due to a woefully hydraulic back up system (by design) in [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > OTOH, the L-1011 had a spotless LOL record from a manufacturing/design > standpoint. snip >> I prefer to work "smart." > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > off the poor repair franchise that get to print money charging you $600 > for a $34 timing belt replacement. This discussion is about automobiles many of which are driven by morons. I am well aware of aviation standards vs. vehicle repair standards as I spent a considerable part of my live as an aerospace process engineer. There is absolutely no comparison to auto repairs and aviation maintennace. NONE! ...unless you intend to fly your Honda... JT > snip > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > There is absolutely no comparison to auto repairs and aviation > maintennace. NONE! agreed, aviation is /way/ more anal. but, as vehicle standard improve, there is less and less room for the abysmal practices that came from detroit's low standards of 50 years ago. and if you've worked on commercial vehicles, standards are way higher than your average frod jockey. > ...unless you intend to fly your Honda... i've been known to get airborne on occasion... <snip> > You're defying history and the rest was pure rambling. "Defying history" - wow! > <snip> > >> You're defying history and the rest was pure rambling. > > "Defying history" - wow! Ok, OK, Ok... Make that, "Long established custom." JT |
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