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Car Forum / Honda Cars / December 2007civic oil filters redux
went through the back posts on google, can't find a good answer noticed that my stocked up parts now has two sizes of gennywine honda oil filters for a 92 civic (now with added B16, same filter, right?) One is fatter and says honeywell made in canada and the other is smaller and says filtec and is made in Japan (I might have some of this backwards I'm working from memory here). Did they change over? It's annoying because now I have to go buy another cup type filter wrench. On the one hand, the more oil the better, but on the other hand, if the drainback valve leaks some, it takes the smaller filter less time to fill up and pass the oil along. z <gzuckier@snail-mail.net> wrote in news:a4490c91-25e2-4600-9f3c- 27a356906593@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com: > went through the back posts on google, can't find a good answer > noticed that my stocked up parts now has two sizes of gennywine honda [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the drainback valve leaks some, it takes the smaller filter less time > to fill up and pass the oil along. 15400-PLM-A02. That's the right filter. They changed them some five years ago. Is the drainback flap orange or black?  SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ z <gzuckier@snail-mail.net> wrote in news:a4490c91-25e2-4600-9f3c- 27a356906593@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com: > went through the back posts on google, can't find a good answer > noticed that my stocked up parts now has two sizes of gennywine honda > oil filters for a 92 civic (now with added B16, same filter, right?) > One is fatter and says honeywell made in canada That's FRAM. FRAM has made Honda's OEM filters for Canada for at least 15 years. OEM is all I ever use. If your filters are bigger than 2.5" diameter they're the old-style filter that was phased out five years ago, > and the other is > smaller and says filtec Filtech. Don't forget the "H". > and is made in Japan (I might have some of > this backwards I'm working from memory here). Did they change over? Yep. Smaller is newer. > It's annoying because now I have to go buy another cup type filter > wrench. Yep. The changeover cost me forty bucks for a new socket. The new, smaller 15400-PLM-A02 takes the new Honda socket 07AAA-PLCA100 (which fits Toyota filter 90915-YZZF2 perfectly, by the way...). The aftermarket Flo-Tool #5 socket kinda fits, but you really have to force it into position, and even then it tends to slip. The old 15400-PT7-006 filter is bigger than 2.5" diameter. I used to use a MAC Tools OF8015 socket for that. > On the one hand, the more oil the better, but on the other hand, if > the drainback valve leaks some, it takes the smaller filter less time > to fill up and pass the oil along. I'm not sure the smaller filter has made one whit of difference to engine life. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > z <gzuckier@snail-mail.net> wrote in news:a4490c91-25e2-4600-9f3c- > 27a356906593@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > The old 15400-PT7-006 filter is bigger than 2.5" diameter. I used to use > a MAC Tools OF8015 socket for that. I could have saved you mucho dinero if I had known that. I use a filter strap wrench. When I encountered the new tiny Kohler-12HP-type Honda OEM filter, I just went out and got a used (very cheap) dirt bike motorcycle tire tube (forget what size), and sectioned it, with a pair of scissors, into what looks like 1.25" wide rubber bands. I stretched the newly created bands over the pee-wee filter until my strap wrench fit. Worked like a charm. People should be careful when installing the pee-wee OEM Honda oil filter, there is a chance of bottoming the metal of the filter-can against the filter base and damaging the filter base. >> On the one hand, the more oil the better, but on the other hand, if >> the drainback valve leaks some, it takes the smaller filter less time >> to fill up and pass the oil along. > > I'm not sure the smaller filter has made one whit of difference to > engine life. > I could have saved you mucho dinero if I had known that. I use a > filter strap wrench. I have one of those too. Good way to break the oil pressure switch on my car, which is exactly what I did before I got smart and bought the socket- type. Not enough room at the back of the B-block for the strap type. I have six or seven different types of oil filter wrenches, accumulated over the years. > When I encountered the new tiny Kohler-12HP-type > Honda OEM filter, I just went out and got a used (very cheap) dirt [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > filter, there is a chance of bottoming the metal of the filter-can > against the filter base and damaging the filter base. So I've heard. And I wonder about that assertion. I have never personally even come close to bottoming out the new OEM filter. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> I could have saved you mucho dinero if I had known that. I use a >> filter strap wrench. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I have six or seven different types of oil filter wrenches, accumulated > over the years. You could have made your own strap wrench. Take a half inch extension (the cheapest you can find... rusty thrown out ones found in garbage bins are the best... because they're free), acquire a 10 or 12 inch length of braided flat cable (steel), one inch or so wide, braze the ends of the cable to the extension flats so you have a flat cable loop on the end of the extension, slip the loop on the filter, insert half inch drive ratchet and turn (flat cable needs to loop on itself to bind). As always, check clearances when building things. My strap type oil filter wrench (with hinged handle) has yet to be stymied. I did modify it decades ago by gluing (contact cement) a strip of emery cloth to the inside of the strap for terrific grip. >> When I encountered the new tiny Kohler-12HP-type >> Honda OEM filter, I just went out and got a used (very cheap) dirt [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > So I've heard. And I wonder about that assertion. I have never personally > even come close to bottoming out the new OEM filter. They will on a 3Gee, and they do it at the prescribed 3/4 turn from gasket contact at the base. The old large OEM and non OEM filters needed the filter wrench to get the 3/4 turn (except for Arnold where muscle power is always a no problemo for him). The pee-wee filters go 3/4 turn by hand.The above refers to a 3Gee. I always scribe a line on the end of the filter can with a screwdriver before installing. A radial line from the center. >> So I've heard. And I wonder about that assertion. I have never >> personally even come close to bottoming out the new OEM filter. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the end of the filter can with a screwdriver before installing. A > radial line from the center. I have a suspicion that people who are bottoming out the filter are seating it too far down before measuring that 3/4 turn. Overtorquing it, in other words. The gasket must /just barely/ kiss the sealing surface, and /no more/ than that. It takes an extremely delicate touch to feel exactly when it contacts. The new filters were made with a different base plate design in order to address complaints about leaking in cold weather with the old filters. Apparently many people were hand-tightening the old filters as though they were square-gasket aftermarkets, and applying too little torque. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> I could have saved you mucho dinero if I had known that. I use a >> filter strap wrench. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I have six or seven different types of oil filter wrenches, accumulated > over the years. I only have one, the OEM oil filter wrench I bought from H and A a few years ago for my '03 Accord. Current price = $18.65. > went through the back posts on google, can't find a good answer > noticed that my stocked up parts now has two sizes of gennywine honda [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > It's annoying because now I have to go buy another cup type filter > wrench. I have never had a filter wrench and always do it by hand. It is quite easy with a little oil on the gasket. > On the one hand, the more oil the better, but on the other hand, if > the drainback valve leaks some, it takes the smaller filter less time > to fill up and pass the oil along. By how many microseconds? > went through the back posts on google, can't find a good answer > noticed that my stocked up parts now has two sizes of gennywine honda > oil filters for a 92 civic (now with added B16, same filter, right?) > One is fatter and says honeywell made in canada and the other is > smaller and says filtec and is made in Japan (I might have some of > this backwards I'm working from memory here). Did they change over? yes. > It's annoying because now I have to go buy another cup type filter > wrench. big deal. > On the one hand, the more oil the better, but on the other hand, if > the drainback valve leaks some, it takes the smaller filter less time > to fill up and pass the oil along. that is a very important point. in my experience, 100% of the honda filters made by fram have leaky drainback valves. 100%. and 100% of the high quality aftermarket filters i've used, don't. therefore, while i'm a pretty hard core "honda oem" kinda guy, honda oem filters are something i rule out. instead, i buy aftermarket japanese online from places like alleurasianautoparts.com or i buy champion filters from walmart - which come from the same factory as the $10 mobil 1 filters. don't buy fram, regardless of the label on the outside. > that is a very important point. in my experience, 100% of the honda > filters made by fram have leaky drainback valves. 100%. and 100% of the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > don't buy fram, regardless of the label on the outside. I use Fram ExtraGuard. They never leak even I replace it every 10K miles. Advance Auto's Totalgrip (same as Purolator Premium) always leak around the gasket. >> that is a very important point. in my experience, 100% of the honda >> filters made by fram have leaky drainback valves. 100%. and 100% of the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Advance Auto's Totalgrip (same as Purolator Premium) always leak around the > gasket. i'm not talking about leaking around the gasket - i'm talking about the drainback valve inside the filter. fram always allow the oil to drain back, and all the crud that the filter is supposed to trap and retain, get recirculated back into the engine. you'll never notice this if you warm the engine and change the filter immediately, as most people do. but if you warm the engine, then wait 30-60 minutes, you'll find the fram filter completely empty because the valve has leaked. the filter should be full, and stay full because the valve should only allow oil one way. >>> that is a very important point. in my experience, 100% of the honda >>> filters made by fram have leaky drainback valves. 100%. and 100% of [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > valve has leaked. the filter should be full, and stay full because the > valve should only allow oil one way. Yep, I was talking about Fram's drainback valve. Yep, I waited 30 minutes before removing the filter. It was still filled with oil. I have the OEM Fram on now. I will find out if it leaks at my next oil change. >>>> that is a very important point. in my experience, 100% of the honda >>>> filters made by fram have leaky drainback valves. 100%. and 100% of [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Yep, I was talking about Fram's drainback valve. Yep, I waited 30 minutes > before removing the filter. It was still filled with oil. good! > I have the OEM Fram on now. I will find out if it leaks at my next oil > change. let us know - the hope is that honda have got fram to fix the problem. i [stupidly] used oem that leaked for about 5 years before i figured out what was happening. > >> that is a very important point. in my experience, 100% of the honda > >> filters made by fram have leaky drainback valves. 100%. and 100% of the [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I just noticed that on my last couple of filters, that the oil light was staying on a bit longer when I started the engine in the AM than it used to. I figure, had to be the drainback valve letting the oil drain back. . > you'll never notice this if you warm the engine and change the filter > immediately, as most people do. but if you warm the engine, then wait > 30-60 minutes, you'll find the fram filter completely empty because > the valve has leaked. the filter should be full, and stay full > because the valve should only allow oil one way. Unless the filter medium is too "open", which is true of FRAM's and others' cheap aftermarket filters. The filter medium must allow partial vacuum to be held in order to keep the oil inside the dirty side of the filter so it will be full for next time you start the car. This is fundamental to oil filter operation. The drainback flap provides one seal, the filter medium provides the other. If the filter medium did not provide its own sealing, the oil would drain out through the medium even in the presence of an effective anti-drainback flap. Don't take my word for it. See Honda say the exact same thing here: http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/A981200.pdf SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > . >> you'll never notice this if you warm the engine and change the filter [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > you start the car. This is fundamental to oil filter operation. The > drainback flap provides one seal, the filter medium provides the other. sorry dude, that's not correct. any "vacuum" associated with filtration is a function of flow rate. if the rate is effectively zero, as with a filter sitting on your drive way, there is zero vacuum, and it /definitely/ shouldn't hold against simple gravity drain. > If the filter medium did not provide its own sealing, the oil would drain > out through the medium even in the presence of an effective anti-drainback > flap. to the point of exit. because the filter is mounted horizontally, it should thus retain oil to the bottom of the center hole. filters with leaky drainback valves don't do that - they empty completely. > Don't take my word for it. See Honda say the exact same thing here: > http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/A981200.pdf that's simply talking about draining the filter! there is no "vacuum" since there is no flow rate - they are incorrect using that word. punching a hole is just creating an exit for the oil to drain out. >> Don't take my word for it. See Honda say the exact same thing here: >> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/A981200.pdf > > that's simply talking about draining the filter! there is no "vacuum" > since there is no flow rate - they are incorrect using that word. > punching a hole is just creating an exit for the oil to drain out. The point is that the oil will not seep through the medium until you do what they say to do. jim, please try this yourself. Use a newish filter with low miles on it, just so "clogging" isn't a significant variable. Hold the oil filter open end up. The oil in a used filter will not pass into the center pipe until you push the drainback flap open. As soon as you push the flap open with a punch or screwdriver or anything else, the oil will immediately begin to fill the center pipe by passing through the medium. I have seen this so many times with my very own eyes. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>> Don't take my word for it. See Honda say the exact same thing here: >>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/A981200.pdf [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The point is that the oil will not seep through the medium until you do > what they say to do. but it does! > jim, please try this yourself. Use a newish filter with low miles on it, > just so "clogging" isn't a significant variable. i have. > Hold the oil filter open end up. The oil in a used filter will not pass > into the center pipe until you push the drainback flap open. it does. > As soon as you > push the flap open with a punch or screwdriver or anything else, the oil > will immediately begin to fill the center pipe by passing through the > medium. it may go slightly faster, but it still passes through without that. > I have seen this so many times with my very own eyes. if the filter is full, it refills the center tube regardless of fiddling with the valve. it may be faster with the valve opened, but if the medium is not allowing oil through, it's clogged. end of story. but we're talking at crossed purposes - this has nothing to do with whether the filter empties because of a leaking drain-back valve. if the filter empties, i.e. no center pipe filling, and it weighs the same as an empty filter, and /there is no spill when unscrewing the filter/ the drainback valve is leaking. period. you should test this part of what i said before getting sidetracked onto arguments about filter medium flow. jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in news:3uydnX- PvvY3WsXanZ2dnUVZ_oOnnZ2d@speakeasy.net: >> On the one hand, the more oil the better, but on the other hand, if >> the drainback valve leaks some, it takes the smaller filter less time >> to fill up and pass the oil along. > > that is a very important point. in my experience, 100% of the honda > filters made by fram have leaky drainback valves. 100%. And my experience is precisely the opposite of yours (over 14 years). I did have one that was bad, but only that one. http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/peelback.jpg (This is one of the old, larger filters; the new ones have an improved flap) Those drainback flaps really do work. Next oil change, hold the old Honda OEM FRAM-built filter open end up. See how the center pipe does not refill from the dirty side of the medium? Now poke a screwdriver through one of the inflow holes to push the drainback flap back and break the vacuum. The center pipe will fill instantly. Try it. There is absolutely nothing at all wrong with FRAM's drainback flap as installed in OEM Honda filters. > don't buy fram, regardless of the label on the outside. OEM Honda filters are of excellent quality, even if made by FRAM. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ On 12/7/07 7:22 AM, in article Xns99FF547FA7474tegger@207.14.116.130, > jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in news:3uydnX- > PvvY3WsXanZ2dnUVZ_oOnnZ2d@speakeasy.net: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > OEM Honda filters are of excellent quality, even if made by FRAM. Much as I hate to admit it, I have to go with Beam on this one. I use Honda OEM filters exclusively on the Hondas and Nissan OEM filters exclusively on the Nissans. Since '95 I have yet to see a single filter (old style or new) that doesn't fill the center pipe within 30 minutes of being stood open end up. > On 12/7/07 7:22 AM, in article Xns99FF547FA7474tegger@207.14.116.130, >> OEM Honda filters are of excellent quality, even if made by FRAM. > > Much as I hate to admit it, I have to go with Beam on this one. I use > Honda OEM filters exclusively on the Hondas I use OEM Honda also. Mine just happen to be made by FRAM to Honda's specs. Honda Canada and its dealers use millions of these FRAM-built filters every year. We trust Honda's judgement on so many issues. Why not on their choice of filter manufacturer? > and Nissan OEM filters > exclusively on the Nissans. Since '95 I have yet to see a single > filter (old style or new) that doesn't fill the center pipe within 30 > minutes of being stood open end up. I've never left a used OEM filter standing open-end up for more than a half-hour. But regardless, the center pipe does not fill during that half-hour until I stick a screwdriver in the inlet hole to push the drainback flap open, at which point the center pipe fills instantly. Aftermarket FRAMs and other makes tend fill the center pipe almost immediately, even with the drainback flap left untouched. I attribute this to a poor-quality medium that flows too easily. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> On 12/7/07 7:22 AM, in article Xns99FF547FA7474tegger@207.14.116.130, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > We trust Honda's judgement on so many issues. Why not on their choice of > filter manufacturer? because in this case, the q.c. is not there. filters are batch tested. and they're manufactured and distributed here in north america. much easier for the locals to test the box of "samples" the manufacturer gives you once in a while than to rigorously test random samples regularly throughout the supply chain. >> and Nissan OEM filters >> exclusively on the Nissans. Since '95 I have yet to see a single [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > immediately, even with the drainback flap left untouched. I attribute > this to a poor-quality medium that flows too easily. could be. or slow flow could be a poor medium that's too easily clogged. good filters have media that have high debris capacity and they achieve this with a graduated pore size depending on medium depth. and they tend to flow very well. a cheapo medium is shallow with small pores - once clogged, they're clogged, and no flow. > On 12/7/07 7:22 AM, in article Xns99FF547FA7474tegger@207.14.116.130, > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > that doesn't fill the center pipe within 30 minutes of being stood open end > up. that's not it though - if the drainback valve is leaking, and the motor is allowed to stand for a while before changing, the filter empties so the center pipe does /not/ fill - because the filter is empty. > jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in news:3uydnX- > PvvY3WsXanZ2dnUVZ_oOnnZ2d@speakeasy.net: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > flap back and break the vacuum. The center pipe will fill instantly. Try > it. the center pipe refilling is a whole different deal. if there is oil in the filter and it doesn't, the filter medium is completely clogged! what is supposed to happen is that the oil gets fed from the outside of the filter, through the one-way valve, through the filter paper, and out through the center pipe. since the filter is mounted horizontally, oil level should be retained at just under half, since that is where the exit hole is. once removed and held vertically, and with unclogged medium, the stuff left on the outside should drain to the center. BUT, with the leaky drainback valve, the filter empties to zero. my experience of the fram oem filters is that if you leave the engine to stand for a while before changing the oil, the filter empties completely, so much so that there's zero spillage when you remove it. and /nothing/ drains into the center pipe. again, most people don't notice this because they don't let the motor stand - they simply run the motor, then drain and remove the filter, as is oil changing tradition. even leaky filters never have time to drain and show themselves in that situation. > There is absolutely nothing at all wrong with FRAM's drainback flap as > installed in OEM Honda filters. i wish it weren't true, but i have 5 years of honda oem filter experience saying the opposite. i used to let the motor stand before draining /because/ the filter would drain and reduce spillage. and it worked every single time. it's only when i started using aftermarket filters [the original size, not the small ones that honda uses now] and noticing that they /didn't/ drain, that i figured out what was happening. duh. >> don't buy fram, regardless of the label on the outside. > > OEM Honda filters are of excellent quality, even if made by FRAM. >> Next oil change, hold the old Honda OEM FRAM-built filter open end >> up. See how the center pipe does not refill from the dirty side of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the center pipe refilling is a whole different deal. if there is oil > in the filter and it doesn't, the filter medium is completely clogged! Then the OEM Toyota ones I buy are bad too. They also will not fill the center pipe until you push the (black rubber) drainback flap out of the way first, at which point the center pipe fills instantly. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>> Next oil change, hold the old Honda OEM FRAM-built filter open end >>> up. See how the center pipe does not refill from the dirty side of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > center pipe until you push the (black rubber) drainback flap out of the way > first, at which point the center pipe fills instantly. as it should if it's full of oil. what i'm talking about, and what you admit you haven't done, is checking the situation when the motor has stood for 30-60 minutes before unscrewing the filter. if the filter is empty, the drain valve leaked. and 100% of the honda filters i have used, new and old type, have drained completely empty when left to stand. none of the quality aftermarket filters i have used - champion labs, denso, npn, have done this. >>>> Next oil change, hold the old Honda OEM FRAM-built filter open end >>>> up. See how the center pipe does not refill from the dirty side of [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > you admit you haven't done, is checking the situation when the motor > has stood for 30-60 minutes before unscrewing the filter. My Integra is allowed to sit a half-hour or so after putting it up on the ramps. This is because allowing the center pipe to drain makes much less mess on the block when the filter is then removed. Plus the ewxhaust is cooler then, so I'm less likely to burn myself. The Tercel is drained after sitting OVERNIGHT. Both cars' filters ARE STILL FULL. I push the flap open, the center pipe begins to fill from the dirty side. But not before the flap is pushed open. Try it. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>>>> Next oil change, hold the old Honda OEM FRAM-built filter open end >>>>> up. See how the center pipe does not refill from the dirty side of [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Try it. apart from the technical misunderstanding, it appears that you have been lucky enough to get filters with working valves. my experience is that all my honda filters have had leaky valves, none of my aftermarket ones have. repetition is getting us nowhere. >> My Integra is allowed to sit a half-hour or so after putting it up on >> the ramps. This is because allowing the center pipe to drain makes [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > apart from the technical misunderstanding, it appears that you have > been lucky enough to get filters with working valves. "Lucky"? For 14 years? I change my oil about six times a year. That's 84 filters over that time (ALL OEM), not counting the dozen or so (OEM) for the Tercel. I must be awfully lucky indeed to have had 83 out of 84 filters with good valves when I should have had precisely the opposite experience. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>> My Integra is allowed to sit a half-hour or so after putting it up on >>> the ramps. This is because allowing the center pipe to drain makes [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > awfully lucky indeed to have had 83 out of 84 filters with good valves when > I should have had precisely the opposite experience. again, we're talking at crossed purposes. i'm talking about a leaking valve, which you have not seen, where the filter completely empties before it's taken off the car, not whether the center pipe fills - a different matter entirely. The smaller filter was around for a long time, wonder what made Honda go to that size in recent years. Cheaper freight? If they perform the same why the larger filter in the first place. I use Bosch Filtech or Purolator PureOne. Both are the larger version. > went through the back posts on google, can't find a good answer > noticed that my stocked up parts now has two sizes of gennywine honda [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the drainback valve leaks some, it takes the smaller filter less time > to fill up and pass the oil along. |
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