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Car Forum / Honda Cars / January 20081997 honda civic hardstart
Hi All, I have been reading similar problems here in this forum but i have not been able to get a good answer to my civic problem. The car's hardstart problem have been around for quite sometime now and local technicians HAVE NOT been able to fix it. Unfortunately, we do not have a HONDA dealer in our small city here. Here are the symptoms: 1.0 Easy to start in the morning but it is really difficult to start when the engine is HOT or after the engine has been turned off after a 30-minute cruise on the highway. 2.0 It often happens when I dropped by a gas station after that long trip - i switch the engine off and after i had one full tank, it is difficult to start the engine over. I hear my starter working but cannot turn the engine over. So i have to press the gas pedal until the engine rolls after several tries. 3.0 I smell gas everytime i have to press the gas pedal to turn the engine on. 4.0 I hear the regular 'clicks' when i switch my keys to ON that means my fuel tank is working right (i think). 5.0 When the engine would not roll-over when starting, i have to wait for about 30 minutes to cool the engine and after that, it would start fine already. 6.0 This means that when the engine is really that hot, i could only hear the miserable starter rolling but not my engine. 7.0 Recently done: Cleaning of the distributor cap, cleaning of spark plugs, and putting an STP fuel injector into the gas tank to NO AVAIL. What do you think is the problem? jaydee . To add to my other problem highlighted here, i also noticed that my radiator loses water at the end of the day. Every morning before leaving home, i have to add 500ml of coolant into the radiator to make sure that the engine won't overheat ( drove around about 30kms to my office everyday and 30kms back home). I have been checking where it might have leaks but to no avail. I don't see any sign of leak. The water level in the resorvoir seems unchanged from the morning i left and after coming back home. This has been the case for several weeks now. Is this related to the hardstart i am experiencing with this car? Please help. You may have a bad head gasket. Top off your radiator and leave the cap off. Have a friend crank the engine. If the coolant bubbles out of the radiator, that would explain all of your problems. > To add to my other problem highlighted here, i also noticed that my > radiator loses water at the end of the day. Every morning before [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Please help. > To add to my other problem highlighted here, i also noticed that my > radiator loses water at the end of the day. Every morning before [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Please help. --------------------------------- If your reservoir doesn't fluctuate, there's a major air leek in the system, possibly in the cap or a hose. Hopefully not the head gasket. 'Curly' > > To add to my other problem highlighted here, i also noticed that my > > radiator loses water at the end of the day. Every morning before [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > 'Curly' Hi Robert, Curly, Thanks for your answers. If I have a head gasket failure, would this cause my hardstart problem? I replaced my radiator cap today so I have to check later tonight if water in the reservoir have been used up into the radiator. If the cap is Ok, what do you think might have caused my problem in starting up the engine? Can you please elaborate more as I am a novice to engines. Thank you. Thanks guys for your thoughts. > > > To add to my other problem highlighted here, i also noticed that my > > > radiator loses water at the end of the day. Every morning before [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > - Show quoted text - yeah, betcha that's it; when the engine is hot, the coolant is pressurized, leaks into combustion chamber or intake, makes it hard to start. not so much of a problem once the engine does get running, however. overnight, pressure drops, whatever water has already sprayed in probably drains out into oil. you should take a look at the oil, see if it looks like it's got water mixed in, sort of like mayonnaise, (which is basically oil and water mixed). now, you say "I hear my starter working but cannot turn the engine over." do you mean it rotates but does not fire, or are you saying it doesn't even rotate? has the engine ever overheated? that's a prime risk for blown head gaskets and suchlike. might take a year or more to appear after the overheating. >>>> To add to my other problem highlighted here, i also noticed that my >>>> radiator loses water at the end of the day. Every morning before [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > if it looks like it's got water mixed in, sort of like mayonnaise, > (which is basically oil and water mixed). hardly ever get that on a honda - pressure leakage from the cylinders is confined to the water jacket, and the oil passages are well sealed so no coolant gets into the oil. commonest symptom is excess pressure in the coolant. > now, you say "I hear my starter working but cannot turn the engine > over." do you mean it rotates but does not fire, or are you saying it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > gaskets and suchlike. might take a year or more to appear after the > overheating. "hardly ever get that on a honda - pressure leakage from the cylinders is confined to the water jacket, and the oil passages are well sealed so no coolant gets into the oil. commonest symptom is excess pressure in the coolant." Jim, thanks. I do get excess pressure in the coolant. So i really have a failed cylinder head? The cylinder head have been refaced already since i had the car overheated a year ago. Thank you. > "hardly ever get that on a honda - pressure leakage from the cylinders > is [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Thank you. bad news - the guys that did your head last time were just creatures of habit - they didn't understand what they were doing. skimming the head, unless it's necessary because the head is warped, is a really bad idea - it throws the cam timing out and unless done to factory spec [highly unlikely] won't have the surface finish necessary to form a good seal. iow, the head is now toast. it probably would have been fine if they'd left it and just cleaned it [but cleaning is a pita]. now your choices are: 1. buy a new head - way expensive. 2. buy a used head from a junkyard - much cheaper, but a lot of work. 3. buy a whole new [low mileage used] jdm engine and simply replace the motor. for the money and effort required, i'd go with #3. these engines cost $400-$500 unless you have the vtec or twin cam, and the labor to replace is a lot less than the labor on prepping the motor for a new head. good luck. don't use the same people that did the last work. also, consider replacing the radiator if you haven't already done so. they have a life of about 10 years, and when they crack, the engine cooks and you'll need a new head gasket! Jim, again thank you very much for sharing your thoughts. I've been asking around here regarding buying a surplus cylinder head. Suppliers here in our country confirm that there are available surplus cylinder made from Japan. If I have to convert it to dollar, the cost of the cylinder head including the cam and rocker arms would only be $340 - $360 (i am from asia). Do you think this is worth buying? I mean it's cheaper than buying a new or low mileage engine but can i similarly trust the head's quality? Just last weekend, i approached a shop (200kms away from us) that specializes in HONDA engines to do all test to check why I have difficulty starting when the engine is hot. They found out the following: 1.0 I have small leaks on my radiator. (this has been repaired today) 2.0 They found that two of my four cylinders have low compression - position 2 and 3. Position 1 and 4 is ok according to them. I also mentioned I overheated the car and they recommended an overhaul - to see if my cylinder head is warped and how the pistons conditions are. So I see that I don't just need a cylinder head replacement but probably piston sets for the two cylinders having low compression? Would I still need the block also replaced aside from the cylinder head? The local shop which i approached told me it would still be okay to run the car despite the leaking radiator and low compression engine. Unfortunately after coming out from the shop and after travelling about 130kms going back home, the oil pressure and the battery warning lights flashed telling me there's something wrong with the engine. It happened as I go downhill after going through uphill. The WORST thing that happened to my automatic car when the lights flashed was that the breaks has been disabled and I could no longer use the breaks. I used the handbreak instead to stop the car. It was almost an ACCIDENT... Again, thank you very much. I really appreciate all the thoughts you have today. I think this is the price of my limited knowledge on engines...Good thing there are forums like this to help me understand. JD > Jim, again thank you very much for sharing your thoughts. > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > JD i'm wondering if you're driving a US version of Honda Civic in Asia? I don't know about now, but a while back folks in Asia lived with a blissful ignorance of emission controls in motor vehiles and their ill- effects on the engines when emission components start to fail. Catalytic converter is an ill-conceived idea, if you ask me. It was invented because Detroit was unable to produce fuel efficiency engines. So there came the cat converter as a convenience and a band- aid to gas-guzzling, hot-rod pieces of sh*t. Japanese manufacturers took the cat converter negatively when it was first introduced. But then again, they wanted their cakes in North American market, no? Well, i gutted my Honda cat converter, before it has a chance to f*ck up my ride. Global warming caused by emission? F*ck that bullsh*t. Why did the dinosaurs come to an extinction? They warmed the globe by the emission from their buttholes? haha Anyways, your car is severly overheated. Don't drive it until you fix it!!! Hahaha. One more question: Do cars experience OVERHEATING without the temp gauge RISING to the maximum??? The Civic here I think is just the same with the US versions - VTEC, 16 valve etc... JD > Hahaha. One more question: Do cars experience OVERHEATING without the > temp gauge RISING to the maximum??? > The Civic here I think is just the same with the US versions - VTEC, > 16 valve etc... > > JD You said your Civic is an automatic, that makes me wonder if you have an US version. 99% of folks in Asia drive manual, regardless of makes.:) The same Honda year/model for different markets have the same engine mechanical, the differences are in emission controls. In this case, two mechanically identical engines may be designated two different model names. Check to find out what kind of emission controls your care is equipped with. Now for your question. In most Hondas, the temp gauge sender (seperated from the coolant temp sensor) feeds the gauge on your dash board. It may not function properly, telling you the the engine is cool when it's hot, and vice versa. Not sure about the its location on a 97 Civic But the temp gauge sender usualy has one wire, disconnect this wire from the sender and ground it. Now, insert the key and turn it to ON (II), you should see the gauge at the maximum. If not, replace the sender. And do not leave the wire grounded for more than few seconds or you risk damaging the gauge. Cheers > Jim, again thank you very much for sharing your thoughts. > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > are. So I see that I don't just need a cylinder head replacement but > probably piston sets for the two cylinders having low compression? rubbish. the gasket is bridged between the two middle cylinders - common for a blown head gasket. no need to replace pistons for that. > Would I still need the block also replaced aside from the cylinder > head? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > JD sounds like your engine is toast. regarding the repair/replace question, these guys sound both incompetent and a bunch of hosers. unfortunately, if they think you don't know enough to challenge them, most car repair shops will recommend what makes them the most money - replacing just the cylinder head. these guys are going way beyond that. simply replacing the engine, while a couple of hundred dollars more expensive on the buy side compared to just a cylinder head [not rebuilding the block like they're saying], is substantially cheaper on the labor side. add a total rebuild and you're looking at thousands of dollars. regarding replacement otoh, most experienced honda techs can have the engine out in less than an hour. just a little more to put one back in. replacing the cylinder head is about the same disassembly time, a whole bunch of time cleaning, checking and prepping, then a bunch of time putting the whole thing back together again. assuming they don't "discover" more problems of course. and on top of that if they do rebuild, as you've just discovered, there is a high probability of reliability problems afterwards! bottom line, you'll need to check the comparative costs for your location, but if you're not doing the work yourself, i say the balance is strongly in favor of simply replacing the whole motor. call around for quotes. most replacement engine importers will ship to wherever you say, so just choose a repair shop from whom you have a firm engine replacement labor quote, and have it shipped to them to do the swap. and make sure you also replace the radiator - its slow failure is what caused the problem in the first place!!! > > > > To add to my other problem highlighted here, i also noticed that my > > > > radiator loses water at the end of the day. Every morning before [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > if it looks like it's got water mixed in, sort of like mayonnaise, > (which is basically oil and water mixed). Reply: I have not seen any water mixed in the engine oil. > now, you say "I hear my starter working but cannot turn the engine > over." do you mean it rotates but does not fire, or are you saying it > doesn't even rotate? Reply: The starter rotates but it doesnt fire the engine. > has the engine ever overheated? that's a prime risk for blown head > gaskets and suchlike. might take a year or more to appear after the > overheating.- Hide quoted text - Reply: Yes, the engine has overheated a year ago. What the shop did was to reface the cylinder head. But then, here comes this problem now. Somehow the radiator is pressurized. I see bubbles looking at the top of the radiator. > - Show quoted text - A rich mixture aids to a cold start and makes warm starting a biatch!! When the engine is hot, You can try pressing the gas pedal all the way to the floor and HOLDING it there while starting. A wide open throttle will compomise a rich condition If that's the case, I suspect a faulty O2 sensor. How's your fuel economy (mpg)? > Hi All, > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > jaydee > . On Jan 10, 4:52 pm, bi...@scn.org wrote: > A rich mixture aids to a cold start and makes warm starting a > biatch!! [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > - Show quoted text - So I dont get a rich mixture already when the engine is hot... I have been starting this car with the gas PEDAL all the way to the floor and it helps the engine start (this is only when the engine is hot to start the car). Where can I find the O2 sensor if thats the problem??? I have a lower gas mileage these days... Isn't this related to the overheating problem I have beed discussing? Thank you very much also for your thoughts. JD > On Jan 10, 4:52 pm, bi...@scn.org wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > JD Did the overheating problem come a while after the hard start problem? If that's the case, then yes it's related When the O2 sensor fails, it defaults the ECU to command a wet mixture as a fail-safe measure, cause a dry mixture will overheat the engine instantly. That allows you to continue driving between repairs. The thing is, it may not throw a code, or if it does, the code may not be reproduced after you reset the ECU. Now, a wet mixture is a burden to the cat converter. If such condition persists for a certain period of time, then the cat will become clogged, and when that happen, the headers go red-hot and overload the cooling system. Oh boy, you just open a full can or worms... lol I had the overheating a year ago. I don't have any clue actually if the flashing of the oil pressure and battery lights are symptoms of overheating now but according to the technician who helped tow the car, it was due to overheating. Here's the big BUT: the temperature gauge DID not rose to the maximum indicating that i really have the problem of overheating. The car's engine just turned off after flashing the two lights - oil pressure and battery lights...What is this indication? Overheating or O2 sensor failure? I have difficulty understanding if this is overheating since I have still lots of water remaining in the radiator (about 3 liters left and 1 liter was gone due to the small leaks). Probably the engine turned off because there's just too much air pressure already in the cooling system? How about head gasket failure? When the two lights are on, what happened is that the brakes and gas pedals are disabled making it difficult to stop the car using its own brake. I have to use the parking or hand brake to stop the car. JD > I had the overheating a year ago. I don't have any clue actually if > the flashing of the oil pressure and battery lights are symptoms of > overheating now but according to the technician who helped tow the > car, it was due to overheating. Here's the big BUT: the temperature > gauge DID not rose to the maximum indicating that i really have the > problem of overheating. it won't if the coolant level has dropped to far - insufficient coolant level, no reading! > The car's engine just turned off after > flashing the two lights - oil pressure and battery lights...What is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > off because there's just too much air pressure already in the cooling > system? How about head gasket failure? hondas are very intolerant of low coolant levels. it's got to be filled to the top. all the time. check regularly. if you start losing coolant at any time, you got to fix the leak. gets expensive if ignored, as you've shown. > When the two lights are on, what happened is that the brakes and gas > pedals are disabled making it difficult to stop the car using its own > brake. I have to use the parking or hand brake to stop the car. that could be because there is too much blow-back reducing the manifold vacuum and thus the brake assist. got to stop trying to drive this thing until you get it fixed. > > I had the overheating a year ago. I don't have any clue actually if > > the flashing of the oil pressure and battery lights are symptoms of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > it won't if the coolant level has dropped to far - insufficient coolant > level, no reading! Objection!!! First off, pressurized coolant steam is hotter than heated coolant. Secondly, the heat of vaporization released upon the condensation of steam on the gauge sender's probe causes it to be heated much more than does the same quantity of heated said liquid. It's fundamental physics, baby!! > hondas are very intolerant of low coolant levels. it's got to be filled > to the top. Correct!! That's why Honda's coolant temperature sensor and coolant temp gauge sender are located at the highest point of the cooling system. Are yours at the radiator's drain bolt? haha... Now, do you really think they are at the top so that when the coolant level starts to drop the gauge sender will stop reading? Cause, look ma! there's nothing to read!! And exactly where the gauge is at should the sender stops reading? >>> I had the overheating a year ago. I don't have any clue actually if >>> the flashing of the oil pressure and battery lights are symptoms of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > It's fundamental physics, baby!! yeah? well get your fundamental physics around the fact that the thermal conductivity of the metal sheath around the sensor exceeds that of a non-flowing gas, but /not/ that of flowing liquid with a specific heat capacity > 2 J g^−1 K^−1. >> hondas are very intolerant of low coolant levels. it's got to be filled >> to the top. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > And exactly where the gauge is at should the sender stops reading? er, heat rises buddy. both liquids and gases. you want to know how hot the hot stuff is? you put the sensor at the top. > heat capacity > 2 J g^-1 K^-1. You're definitely confused, my friend. This formula applies for black- body spectrum calculation and it's got nothing to do with thermodynamics >> heat capacity > 2 J g^-1 K^-1. > > You're definitely confused, my friend. This formula applies for black- > body spectrum calculation and it's got nothing to do with > thermodynamics 1. that's not a formula, that's a specific heat capacity. 2. black body spectrum is for radiation, not conduction. 3. heat capacity is really not thermodynamics. nothing personal because it's not your fault, but you evidence how our education system stinks. no wonder we have to import engineers from chindia. Guys, To fix my current problem, it turns out from my calculations I will be spending less if I have to buy surplus cylinder parts, cam shafts including rocker arms (at USD340) than buying the whole engine (at least USD1100 to more than USD2000 JDM parts). I saw from another post here that the base would cost at USD800. What do you mean by the way with the base? The labor cost for overhauling the engine here is just about USD190 (total). I am not sure if this is a cheap labor cost for overhauling engines... Would you recommend the surplus parts which are cheaper??? I just like to keep this car running in short distances and have planned already to buy a new one for longer trips. cheers! JD > Guys, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > (total). I am not sure if this is a cheap labor cost for overhauling > engines... but you'd still have the reliability problem. and if labor is so cheap, fitting the new engine will be even cheaper. > Would you recommend the surplus parts which are cheaper??? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > cheers! > JD google for "jdm honda engine" and you'll find a bunch of people selling low mileage used japanese engines for $400-$500usd, [for the basic ones. the performance engines cost more]. that is the whole motor, no need to disassemble, no missing parts, with warranty. > bi...@scn.org wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > education system stinks. no wonder we have to import engineers from > chindia. bwahaha..you didn't get it!! Thanks guys for the input. I appreciate them all! Peace to you all and God bless! JD |
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