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Car Forum / Honda Cars / February 20082008 Honda Civic Ex Maintenance Schedule
Hi, I recently bought a new 2008 Honda Civic Sedan EX after my older model (2005) was totalled during a car accident. I'm still getting used to the new car but so far so good. One big big change with the new car is what appears to be the absence of a maintenance schedule. I'm used to going to the service at 5000 miles intervals and following the owner's manual as to when to service my car. Now with all the new features in the 2008 model like maintenance reminders etc, and the absence of a schedule maintenance in the owner's manual, is there no point to following your standard 5000 miles scheduled maintenance to, say, get your oil change etc or your typical 10,000-interval mile service to a shop (like tire rotation, brake fluid check, etc)? In article <74b09b16-d360-44d8-b5b7-8cdaf51ac8f0@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > Hi, I recently bought a new 2008 Honda Civic Sedan EX after my older > model (2005) was totalled during a car accident. I'm still getting > used to the new car but so far so good. One big big change with the > new car is what appears to be the absence of a maintenance schedule. No, there's a maintenance schedule. Read your owner's manual. > Now with all the new > features in the 2008 model like maintenance reminders etc, and the > absence of a schedule maintenance in the owner's manual, is there no > point to following your standard 5000 miles scheduled maintenance to, > say, get your oil change etc or your typical 10,000-interval mile > service to a shop (like tire rotation, brake fluid check, etc)? Read your owner's manual. It spells things out quite clearly. > In article > <74b09b16-d360-44d8-b5b7-8cdaf51ac...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > No, there's a maintenance schedule. Read your owner's manual. The only "schedule" I see in my manual is the one mentioned in pages 228-229 of the 2008 Hondai Civic Sedan, but this is exactly what I"m talking about, its not a "schedule" like you said but more of a "minder" which I posted originally. In my old 2005 manual, it spells it out such that at every 5000 mi, you change the oil, at 10000 mi you change oil + other stuff, at 30000 mi interval you do major service etc (located at the middle of the page). What "manual" are you talking about? > > Now with all the new > > features in the 2008 model like maintenance reminders etc, and the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Read your owner's manual. It spells things out quite clearly. See my reply above. Show me what page where "it spells things out quite clearly". For example, I've always replaced my engine oil at every 5000 mi, but the 2008 civic you basically have to rely on the reminder whether your oil is 15% or 10% etc. It doesn't say in the manual the recommended time to replace the oil (i.e. every 6 months or every 5000 mi). What happens if the dealer forgets to reset the reminder or, worse, malfunctions? > but the 2008 civic you basically have to rely on the reminder whether your oil is 15% or 10% etc. It doesn't say in the manual the recommended time to replace the oil (i.e. every 6 months or every 5000 mi). What happens if the dealer forgets to reset the reminder or, worse, malfunctions? That's where your brain comes in. If that doesn't work, visit the dealer, to whom you gave many thousands of dollars, and ask how this new "system" works. > That's where your brain comes in. If that doesn't work, visit the dealer, to > whom you gave many thousands of dollars, and ask how this new "system" > works. WTF? What's your problem? Are you the sorry son of a Honda dealer/ salesman that one little critique of the maintenance schedule got your little feathers all ruffled? I know how this thing works, and that wasn't my original question from this post. Maybe YOU should check your brain (or what's left of it) and start reading the thread from the beginning. In article <ed029d0e-1e8d-47d3-bbcc-ac5fb0f30958@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > > That's where your brain comes in. If that doesn't work, visit the dealer, to > > whom you gave many thousands of dollars, and ask how this new "system" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > salesman that one little critique of the maintenance schedule got your > little feathers all ruffled? You manufactured a circumstance that (a) wouldn't happen, or (b) is easily rectified if it did happen by mistake--and used that as "this is why I need a time/miles maintenance schedule!" Quit manufacturing things to be worried about. Sheesh. You're like an old woman. > In article > <ed029d0e-1e8d-47d3-bbcc-ac5fb0f30958@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Quit manufacturing things to be worried about. Sheesh. You're like an > old woman. My Honda dealer routinely forgets to reset the maintenence reminder. "Art" <begunaNOSPAMPLEASE@mindspring.com> wrote > My Honda dealer routinely forgets to reset the maintenence reminder. That sucks...it doesn't inspire confidence in the dealer, IMHO. Peace, Polfus >> In article >> <74b09b16-d360-44d8-b5b7-8cdaf51ac...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > every 5000 mi). What happens if the dealer forgets to reset the > reminder or, worse, malfunctions? how hard is this concept? do you fill the gas tank every 300 miles or when the gauge shows you should? same principle applies with the the maint sched reminder! and if they "forget" reset it, not only will you not be paying them, you'll see the percentage stay the same and you'll be calling the dealer to have them sort it out. if it malfunctions, since it's integrated with your engine management computer, the car will be dead and you'll be calling the dealer for warranty repair. > >> In article > >> <74b09b16-d360-44d8-b5b7-8cdaf51ac...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Dude would you f***ing relax? I just asked if there is a schedule in the new civics such as those in the older models. I in no way did I say the new features are bad. It was a new thing that caught me by surprise, in a good way. If there's no schedule in the manual, then fine! Can anyone get a simple "yes" or "no" answer here anymore? Check your owner's manual under the section that says maintenance minder. It will tell you what each letter and number corresponds to what service you need to perform on the car at that time. >> >> In article >> >> <74b09b16-d360-44d8-b5b7-8cdaf51ac...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >surprise, in a good way. If there's no schedule in the manual, then >fine! Can anyone get a simple "yes" or "no" answer here anymore? In article <4275fa64-c8a5-4c14-b68d-c2cc7181849b@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > > how hard is this concept? Â do you fill the gas tank every 300 miles or > > when the gauge shows you should? Â same principle applies with the the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Dude would you f***ing relax? I just asked if there is a schedule in > the new civics such as those in the older models. His question is valid: how hard is this concept? You're resisting it very, very much. You want a crude time/mileage table. I suppose you also avoid modern vaccines, and you drink unpasteurized milk. Well, how's this: fill your gas tank every 200 miles or 5 days, whichever comes first. Don't use that gas gauge that gives you ACTUAL information about the fill status of the gas tank. That's just stupid. In article <4275fa64-c8a5-4c14-b68d-c2cc7181849b@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > I just asked if there is a schedule in > the new civics such as those in the older models. I in no way did I > say the new features are bad. It was a new thing that caught me by > surprise, in a good way. If there's no schedule in the manual, then > fine! Can anyone get a simple "yes" or "no" answer here anymore? No. > In article > <4275fa64-c8a5-4c14-b68d-c2cc71818...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > No. Great! That's all I'm looking for. No need to get offended just because someone made a comment to your Honday gods >>>> In article >>>> <74b09b16-d360-44d8-b5b7-8cdaf51ac...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > surprise, in a good way. If there's no schedule in the manual, then > fine! Can anyone get a simple "yes" or "no" answer here anymore? have you noticed how people here don't like answering dumb questions? you want to pay me, i'll give you any answer you want. if you don't want to pay me, you got to interest me - and bleating about what you're getting for free just doesn't do that. > have you noticed how people here don't like answering dumb questions? > you want to pay me, i'll give you any answer you want. if you don't > want to pay me, you got to interest me - and bleating about what you're > getting for free just doesn't do that.- Hide quoted text - Thanks but I finally got my answer. Unfortunately it took 14+ threads to sift through. Some people here seriously have issues if one comment that may sound "bad" is made to their Honda gods. > > See my reply above. Show me what page where "it spells things out > > quite clearly". For example, I've always replaced my engine oil at [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > when the gauge shows you should? same principle applies with the the > maint sched reminder! Good one. Let's see him respond to THAT. In article <5220f417-717a-4ce3-b67e-61607098bd18@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > > No, there's a maintenance schedule. Read your owner's manual. > > The only "schedule" I see in my manual is the one mentioned in pages > 228-229 of the 2008 Hondai Civic Sedan, but this is exactly what I"m > talking about, its not a "schedule" like you said but more of a > "minder" The "minder" is the result of the engine computer, which is keeping very close track of EXACTLY how you drive the car and what wear you put on it. The schedule is inside the computer, and the computer tells you when your driving habits warrant a given service. How is that so difficult to understand or accept? It's much more precise than "well, it's been about 6 months since I've seen ol' Goober down at the fillin' station, so it must be time." > In my old 2005 manual, it spells > it out such that at every 5000 mi, you change the oil, at 10000 mi you > change oil + other stuff, at 30000 mi interval you do major service > etc (located at the middle of the page). And years ago we used buy and play vinyl records. Do you go to the Apple Store, pick up an iPod, and ask the guy, "Where's the stylus? Where do I put the record on?"? > What "manual" are you > talking about? The same manual you're reading. Follow it. Why the resistance to following it? > > Read your owner's manual. It spells things out quite clearly. > > See my reply above. Show me what page where "it spells things out > quite clearly". Pages 228-229. Why the resistance to following the schedule that Honda's engineers have spelled out? The fact that they've spelled it out only in the computer, which is able to take into account every little aspect of how you drive the car and therefore know exactly how much wear their components and lubricants have received? The old "do it every X months or Y thousand miles" was there as a best guesstimate, because the technology wasn't built into the car to record every cold start, every RPM load, and so on. But now that it is there, we don't go by simple time or miles--we go by much more precise measurements. And those measurements are understood by the engineers who built the car, and the results of the measurements are well understood by the engineers who built the car. Why the resistance to following it? > The "minder" is the result of the engine computer, which is keeping very > close track of EXACTLY how you drive the car and what wear you put on it. > > The schedule is inside the computer, and the computer tells you when > your driving habits warrant a given service. Wow little Elmo, that REALLY "spells" it out in the manual! > How is that so difficult to understand or accept? It's much more > precise than "well, it's been about 6 months since I've seen ol' Goober > down at the fillin' station, so it must be time." Who said I'm not accepting this or having difficulty to understand? I essentially just asked if the new models have a "strict" recommended schedule to adhere to, like in older models. If not, then fine. Actually, its good that it doesn't. I just wanted to know if this "minder" is sufficient enough to keep the maintenance on check. > > In my old 2005 manual, it spells > > it out such that at every 5000 mi, you change the oil, at 10000 mi you [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Apple Store, pick up an iPod, and ask the guy, "Where's the stylus? > Where do I put the record on?"? I guess you're THAT old to remember vinyl records? And you call yourself "Elmo"? > > What "manual" are you > > talking about? > > The same manual you're reading. Follow it. > > Why the resistance to following it? Who said I'm not gonna follow it? Can't you read my original question? A simple "yes" or "no" is all I'm looking for. Geez, did I just offend your Honda religion or something? > > > Read your owner's manual. It spells things out quite clearly. > > > See my reply above. Show me what page where "it spells things out > > quite clearly". Yeah, you spelled it out quite "clearly" alright ("oh oh, the schedule is in the computer...") > Pages 228-229. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the car and therefore know exactly how much wear their components and > lubricants have received? That's good! I like that they did that! And I never said I was resisting. All I asked if it matters to adhere to a schedule anymore. If the "minder" is all that requires, then great! > The old "do it every X months or Y thousand miles" was there as a best > guesstimate, because the technology wasn't built into the car to record [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Why the resistance to following it? Seriously dude, someone should grab you by the tummy so you can start giggling like those tickle-me dolls from years back. Or is that too recent for you that all you remember in your hay days are vinyl records? In article <c1287b84-cfe2-4316-836e-f5f36ed79ae5@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > > The "minder" is the result of the engine computer, which is keeping very > > close track of EXACTLY how you drive the car and what wear you put on it. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Wow little Elmo, that REALLY "spells" it out in the manual! The manual couldn't be clearer--follow the maintenance minder. You're manufacturing things out of thin air here. You don't WANT to follow the minder, for some reason unknown to anyone. > Who said I'm not accepting this or having difficulty to understand? I > essentially just asked if the new models have a "strict" recommended > schedule to adhere to, like in older models. If not, then fine. So you read the owner's manual, which spells everything out. You chose not to believe the manufacturer, choosing instead to come to the Usenet and ask random strangers--most of whom would be highly entertained by sending you on a snipe hunt. Yeah, THAT'S a good choice. Instead of sending you on a snipe hunt, we give you actual information--and we're watching you refuse the actual information (which correlates with what the manufacturer says, interestingly enough) and instead defend your original choice of refusing to believe the manufacturer. Equally entertaining, in the end. > > And years ago we used buy and play vinyl records. Do you go to the > > Apple Store, pick up an iPod, and ask the guy, "Where's the stylus? > > Where do I put the record on?"? > > I guess you're THAT old to remember vinyl records? And you call > yourself "Elmo"? You can still buy vinyl records, but you have to search them out. Not sure why my choice of monicker is involved in that particular discussion. > > > What "manual" are you > > > talking about? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Who said I'm not gonna follow it? You did. > And I never said I was > resisting. All I asked if it matters to adhere to a schedule > anymore. So you read the owner's manual, which spells everything out. You chose not to believe the manufacturer, choosing instead to come to the Usenet and ask random strangers--most of whom would be highly entertained by sending you on a snipe hunt. > > Why the resistance to following it? > > Seriously dude, someone should grab you by the tummy so you can start > giggling like those tickle-me dolls from years back. Or is that too > recent for you that all you remember in your hay days are vinyl > records? Nice try at trying to avoid the question. Why didn't you answer it? As for "hay days," that would be feeding time at the horse stable. Maybe you were trying to talk about a heyday? English. It's a great language. Use it. > As for "hay days," that would be feeding time at the horse stable. > Maybe you were trying to talk about a heyday? > > English. It's a great language. Use it. Ding ding ding! NIce. You're not that stupid after all..... >> Why the resistance to following it? > Who said I'm not gonna follow it? Can't you read my original question? A simple "yes" or "no" is all I'm looking for. Geez, did I just offend your Honda religion or something? Your original post included wondering a) what happens if the "minder" malfunctions, and b) what happens if the dealer forgets to reset it. (It was to those that I responded.) Those are not "yes or no" questions. So in the future, be clear with your communication, and we'll respond accordingly. There are a lot of bright, knowledgeable people here who really do go out of their way to help... and respond accordingly. Seriously, I hope you enjoy your new car. This has been a very entertaining thread; thank you all! > >> Why the resistance to following it? > > Who said I'm not gonna follow it? Can't you read my original [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > This has been a very entertaining thread; thank you all! Dude, are you and Elmo eating the same food for dinner? Here's my original question from the very first post of this thread: "Now with all the new features in the 2008 model like maintenance reminders etc, and the absence of a schedule maintenance in the owner's manual, is there no point to following your standard 5000 miles scheduled maintenance to, say, get your oil change etc or your typical 10,000-interval mile service to a shop (like tire rotation, brake fluid check, etc)? " Maybe you should stick to reading those astronomy books and learning about hummingbird behaviors, or try using your own brain for a chance before you suggest others to do the same. >>>> Why the resistance to following it? >>> Who said I'm not gonna follow it? �Can't you read my original [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > about hummingbird behaviors, or try using your own brain for a chance > before you suggest others to do the same. lets get this straight - you show up out of the blue, you ask badly constructed and poorly considered questions, then get all pissed because the people you're asking really can't be bothered with your sh.t, but it's all their fault??? dude, knowing how to read the owners manual is the least of your problems. > lets get this straight - you show up out of the blue, you ask badly > constructed and poorly considered questions, then get all pissed because > the people you're asking really can't be bothered with your sh.t, but > it's all their fault??? dude, knowing how to read the owners manual is > the least of your problems.- Hide quoted text - Okay, I guess we can put you in the same horse stable as Elmo and Howard. I think someone needs to replace the hay you guys have been eating. Read my original question again. If you people don't want to be bothered with my question, then don't respond at all, instead of saying some smartass response like I don't know what I'm talking about. Its a simple question given the fact that I drove an older model before purchasing a new one. And if you can't follow this "badly constructed and poorly considered question", then I guess you're just as stupid for not carefully reading it before posting your response. This is a usenet group, not grammar school. >> lets get this straight - you show up out of the blue, you ask badly >> constructed and poorly considered questions, then get all pissed because [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > you're just as stupid for not carefully reading it before posting your > response. This is a usenet group, not grammar school. let's see - you've argued with not one, not two, but three people here. statistically, what is the likely common denominator in this equation? > let's see - you've argued with not one, not two, but three people here. > statistically, what is the likely common denominator in this equation?- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Three stupid people eating hay in a horse stable On Feb 2, 10:35 pm, rcpesi...@gmail.com wrote: > > let's see - you've argued with not one, not two, but three people here. > > statistically, what is the likely common denominator in this equation?- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > Three stupid people eating hay in a horse stable Now who the heck are you? If I were you I wouldn't get involved.... > let's see - you've argued with not one, not two, but three people here. > statistically, what is the likely common denominator in this equation?- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Hahaha, someone posted a response to this question that is worthy of repeating, but I think he/she knows better about getting involved since he/she deleted their post. > > let's see - you've argued with not one, not two, but three people here. > > statistically, what is the likely common denominator in this equation?- Hide quoted text - [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > repeating, but I think he/she knows better about getting involved > since he/she deleted their post. Eh! What the heck, I'll say what his/her response was: Q: let's see - you've argued with not one, not two, but three people here. > > statistically, what is the likely common denominator in this equation? A: Three stupid people eating hay in a horse stable Hahahaha! >>> lets get this straight - you show up out of the blue, you ask badly >>> constructed and poorly considered questions, then get all pissed because [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > let's see - you've argued with not one, not two, but three people here. > statistically, what is the likely common denominator in this equation? That he met three a.sholes in a row. Polfus Avalon1178 <Avalon1178@gmail.com> wrote in news:b025dbf2-18da-4cca-a86b- a02a12e96783@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com: >> lets get this straight - you show up out of the blue, you ask badly >> constructed and poorly considered questions, then get all pissed because [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > you're just as stupid for not carefully reading it before posting your > response. This is a usenet group, not grammar school. Your answer was given in the very first reply to your original message. Elmo directed you to consult your Owner's Manual, which covers Maintenance on pages 307 through 313. Page 310 has a diagram of the Maintenance Minder readout in the instrument cluster, along with some description of how it works. Among the descriptions is this snippet: "All maintenance items displayed on the information display are in code. For an explanation of these maintenance codes, see page 313." It's a bit unfair to fail to perform a basic requirement of new-car ownership, then get mad at people who advise you to do it.  SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > lets get this straight - you show up out of the blue, you ask badly > constructed and poorly considered questions, then get all pissed because > the people you're asking really can't be bothered with your sh.t, but it's > all their fault??? dude, knowing how to read the owners manual is the > least of your problems. You are a gigantic pussy. Bottom line: your life sucks so bad you need this newsgroup to make youself feel better. Reality: dude asked a question, and you flew in with your usual sh.t. If you were a human being, you would have helped. But you hate yourself, so you project it onto others instead by insulting them. Its clear to everyone except those that are just like you, like your little buddy Elmo, which obviously is your email partner in these postings. Tell me I'm wrong..that you haven't sent each other emails saying how much you hate when people do this or that and how you both are gonna let folks really have it when they piss you off. Tell me I'm wrong...that'll make you a liar also. Polfus >> lets get this straight - you show up out of the blue, you ask badly >> constructed and poorly considered questions, then get all pissed [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Tell me I'm wrong...that'll make you a liar also. how old are you? >>> lets get this straight - you show up out of the blue, you ask badly >>> constructed and poorly considered questions, then get all pissed because [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > how old are you? Looks like I'm not wrong, then. Polfus >>>> lets get this straight - you show up out of the blue, you ask badly >>>> constructed and poorly considered questions, then get all pissed [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Polfus your contributions are inane and childish. they lack any honda-related merit. and you get fixated on schoolyard snot-smearing. how old are you? > your contributions are inane and childish. they lack any honda-related > merit. and you get fixated on schoolyard snot-smearing. how old are you? Nice Honda-related content. > The "minder" is the result of the engine computer, which is keeping very > close track of EXACTLY how you drive the car and what wear you put on it. > > The schedule is inside the computer, and the computer tells you when > your driving habits warrant a given service. > Why the resistance to following the schedule that Honda's engineers have > spelled out? The fact that they've spelled it out only in the computer, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > car, and the results of the measurements are well understood by the > engineers who built the car. Then why can all that be screwed up if one forgets to reset the Maintenance Minder? Think about it. If you rest it early, then Honda admits that the schedule will be off. That means, therefore, that all it is is a simple computer that remembers the milage when it was reset. That's it. And the manual says quite clearly, "If the message "Service" does not appear more than 12 months after the display is reset, change the engine oil every year." What if I then drive 35,000 miles in one year? What then, smart-a.s...don't change the oil because the Maintenance Minder computer says no need? Polfus > Then why can all that be screwed up if one forgets to > reset the Maintenance Minder? > If you rest it early, then Honda admits that the schedule > will be off. Correct. The Maintenance Minder does not completely absolve the owner of responsibility when it comes to maintenance. > And the manual says quite clearly, "If the message > "Service" does not appear more than 12 months after the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > What then, smart-a.s...don't change the oil because the > Maintenance Minder computer says no need? The MM computer does take into account distance driven. Can the computer fail? Yes, but so can a lot of other parts. The owner has to stay alert to trouble codes and symptoms. My sense is the MM may very well save the owner money by reducing unnecessary oil and other part and fluid changes. See post to Avalon for some elaboration. These all are often-raised concerns at other internet fora. Like all new technology, it's going to take a while for the MM to be accepted. Or it may be rejected. I'd say the jury's out. If forced to bet, I'd bet the MM is useful for at least oil changes, with the caveat that I'd like more input on why there is no distinction made between synthetic and non-synthetic oil, per both Honda's old maintenance schedules and the new MM. >> Then why can all that be screwed up if one forgets to reset the >> Maintenance Minder? > >> If you rest it early, then Honda admits that the schedule will be off. > Correct. The Maintenance Minder does not completely absolve the owner of > responsibility when it comes to maintenance. That's it exactly..which is why I feel that questions about the Maintenance Minder's actual schedule are valid. You know...all I need would be for Honda to just simply gimme a general recommendation or two regarding the engine oil. It is not difficult for a "Honda recommends changing engine oil every 5,000 miles or 7,000 miles or whatever. Because for Honda to dismiss the thing's worth with "...change the engine oil every year" must still be a recommendation that they are comfortable with. Because they are saying that if you don't use the MM, then change the oil every year. That amazes me to no end...what the hell is the point of being so critical with the MM when Honda basically says their car will bne fine if you just change the oil once a year. Do you follow what I'm saying? > The MM computer does take into account distance driven. I believe that's most likely the main thought in its electronic brain; i.e. "..when did I last get reset?" > Can the computer fail? Yes, but so can a lot of other parts. The owner has > to stay alert to trouble codes and symptoms. No doubt...and its good to have on there regardless. > My sense is the MM may very well save the owner money by reducing > unnecessary oil and other part and fluid changes. See post to Avalon for > some elaboration. Agreed. I also believe its because a whole mess of folks can't remember when they last changed their oil, so its a reminder. Just that simple, IMHO. > These all are often-raised concerns at other internet fora. Like all new > technology, it's going to take a while for the MM to be accepted. Or it > may be rejected. I'd say the jury's out. Well said. I believe it will remain in one form or another. I also believe the main thing is that folks like me and the Avalon fella is that we cannot accept a car company telling us "just shut the hell up and do what the computer says". If the computer fails, like H.A.L., then we need back up and info on how to fix or maintain the dang thing. So all Honda has to do is explain it more with backup info for their general plan for oil changes and filter changes in case Ye Olde MM fails...if they did that, I don't think we'd be having this conversation right now. >If forced to bet, I'd bet the MM is useful for at least oil changes, with >the caveat that I'd like more input on why there is no distinction made >between synthetic and non-synthetic oil, per both Honda's old maintenance >schedules and the new MM. Well..you want my guess? Here goes in case you said yes: I think its because- 1) They don't use an actual sensor to "taste" the oil..there's no chemical analysis machine in the car anywhere. So they have no way of knowing exactly what the state of the oil and filter actually are. And the MM sure as heck doesn't do anything other than remember last reset and supposedly factors like starts and acceleration, etc...which I really have a hard time believing is that effective if at all. 2) So, since they don't use any such sensor to test the oil, there needs to be no distinction between the two types of oils. 3) When you use a synthetic oil, Honda states at that point that we should follow the new recommendations of the synthetic oil manufacturer; i.e. Mobil 1's guidelines. 4) Since we gotta use the new guidelines, there's no need for anything other than Honda's recommendation with regular oil. 5) Possibly there is some extreme conspiracy whereas there's so much money to be made on oil, that no one wants us to know that synthetic oil is better. It seems that every one that offers a synthetic oil also offers a regular. Why should a company cut its main profit off by spilling the beans completely? 6) Never underestimates the power of greed and money, and refer back to #5. Peace, Polfus > > Correct. The Maintenance Minder does not completely absolve the owner of > > responsibility when it comes to maintenance. > > That's it exactly..which is why I feel that questions about the Maintenance > Minder's actual schedule are valid. But since those questions are answered explicitly in the owner's manual, asking them here is not valid. >> > Correct. The Maintenance Minder does not completely absolve the owner >> > of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > But since those questions are answered explicitly in the owner's manual, > asking them here is not valid. No, they most certainly are not answered explicitly in the owner's manual. But you tell me specifically where it answers these two simple questions..I have my manual in hand and await your scary knowledge: 1) What mileage or interval does Honda recommend you change the oil at? 2) If the MM isn't reset after service, when is the next oil change actually due? Tell me where this is in the manual, for starters, and I'll send you a case of Coors. Otherwise you can kiss my lilly white (_l_). Polfus >>> > Correct. The Maintenance Minder does not completely absolve the >>> owner > of [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > 1) What mileage or interval does Honda recommend you change the oil at? at what mileage interval do you refill with gas? or do you watch the gauge and fill when empty? because that's all the maint minder is - a gauge. > 2) If the MM isn't reset after service, when is the next oil change > actually due? do you notice if you forget to fill with gas? because the gauge will show "empty" if you don't re-set. > Tell me where this is in the manual, for starters, and I'll send you a > case of Coors. > > Otherwise you can kiss my lilly white (_l_). bottom line - you're just humping virtually every post in sight, presumably because you're bored. have your parents grounded you for something? and you post unspeakable crap. "osmolarity", "chemical structure" and spectrometry for example, when you haven't the slightest idea what those things are. the gauge uses a formula built up over time. if the input [time, rpms, throttle, temp, etc.] are measured, and correlated to output by honda's engineers, the output can be measured to a very high degree of accuracy. not "trusting" it and continuing to bleat about mileage schedules is like not trusting the engine computer to inject the right amount of gas - an utterly ridiculous concept. as for synthetics, as per the algorithm, input is known. accumulated combustion product buildup rate, that this algorithm models, will be the same regardless of oil. can synthetics run longer? sure. but the engineering "safe" solution is to go on the level of combustion product accumulation, not rely on variance in oil formulation. now, you go ahead and hump this post polfus. maybe even throw in a few naughty cuss words. then go to bed and let your mommy read you a story about the big bad oil bears and how they'll eat your [daddy's] car if you don't change the oil every 3k miles. >> 1) What mileage or interval does Honda recommend you change the oil at? > > at what mileage interval do you refill with gas? or do you watch the > gauge and fill when empty? because that's all the maint minder is - a > gauge. No answer, I see. You're banter just as re-inforces that this info is most definately NOT spelled out clearly in the Owner's Manual, which you accused someone of being stupid because they asked about it. >> 2) If the MM isn't reset after service, when is the next oil change >> actually due? > > do you notice if you forget to fill with gas? because the gauge will show > "empty" if you don't re-set. Good point...but I'm just telling you what the mighty Owner's Manual states. > bottom line - you're just humping virtually every post in sight, > presumably because you're bored. have your parents grounded you for > something? You *are* Frank Burns. > and you post unspeakable crap. "osmolarity", "chemical structure" and > spectrometry for example, when you haven't the slightest idea what those > things are. You say that with such...gusto...its kinda sweet, really. > the gauge uses a formula built up over time. if the input [time, rpms, > throttle, temp, etc.] are measured, and correlated to output by honda's > engineers, the output can be measured to a very high degree of accuracy. > not "trusting" it and continuing to bleat about mileage schedules is like > not trusting the engine computer to inject the right amount of gas - an > utterly ridiculous concept. You just can't see the point no matter what you do... > as for synthetics, as per the algorithm, input is known. accumulated > combustion product buildup rate, that this algorithm models, will be the > same regardless of oil. can synthetics run longer? sure. but the > engineering "safe" solution is to go on the level of combustion product > accumulation, not rely on variance in oil formulation. Duh..and you need chemical analysis to do so...whats wrong with gas chromatography/mass spectrometry, for example? > now, you go ahead and hump this post polfus. maybe even throw in a few > naughty cuss words. then go to bed and let your mommy read you a story > about the big bad oil bears and how they'll eat your [daddy's] car if you > don't change the oil every 3k miles. Goe fugg yerselv. Seriously. Polfus > > at what mileage interval do you refill with gas? or do you watch the > > gauge and fill when empty? because that's all the maint minder is - a > > gauge. > > No answer, I see. The answer is, it's up to the driver to pay attention to the dash gauges according to the owner's manual. What's so hard about that? > <snip crap> > Duh..and you need chemical analysis to do so... no you don't - analysis is when you don't know what the input is - it's if you're flying blind. [and installing gas chromatography instruments on a car is a ridiculous concept btw.] > whats wrong with gas > chromatography/mass spectrometry, for example? with a modern car, you /know/ what the input is, so analysis would be an incredible expense for almost no practical benefit. >> <snip crap> Hey...you are a little sh.t when you want to be, no doubt. >> Duh..and you need chemical analysis to do so... > > no you don't - analysis is when you don't know what the input is - it's if > you're flying blind. You scare me sometimes..where do you come up with this stuff? You the same dude that recommended the double-blind study a while ago? > [and installing gas chromatography instruments on a car is a ridiculous > concept btw.] Hey...at least there would be no *GUESSWORK* involved in when to change your oil, you silly man. >> whats wrong with gas chromatography/mass spectrometry, for example? > with a modern car, you /know/ what the input is, so analysis would be an > incredible expense for almost no practical benefit. Well neither is a system that *GUESSES* when I should change my oil. And that, my mentally challenged friend, is the bottom line. Polfus >>> <snip crap> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > You scare me sometimes..where do you come up with this stuff? actually, i went to school and studied stuff like this. you should try it - you might learn something. > You the same dude that recommended the double-blind study a while ago? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Hey...at least there would be no *GUESSWORK* involved in when to change > your oil, you silly man. so $150k of chromatography instrumentation is a good idea for a $15k car? you have a serious reality problem. ignoring the fact that people spent millions of dollars researching the algorithms to make computer monitoring work of course. >>> whats wrong with gas chromatography/mass spectrometry, for example? > >> with a modern car, you /know/ what the input is, so analysis would be >> an incredible expense for almost no practical benefit. > > Well neither is a system that *GUESSES* when I should change my oil. it's not a guess, it's a measure, based on usage. like your gas thank gauge. > And that, my mentally challenged friend, is the bottom line. well, /one/ of us is certainly challenged. and i'm not your friend. hump #5 > > But since those questions are answered explicitly in the owner's manual, > > asking them here is not valid. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > 1) What mileage or interval does Honda recommend you change the oil at? When the MM tells you to or a year, whichever comes first. > 2) If the MM isn't reset after service, when is the next oil change actually > due? Gee, you mean it's up to the DRIVER to KNOW HIS CAR and MAINTAIN it, including watching the dash and seeing that the MM is reset? What will we DO? Honda isn't SPOON-FEEDING US ENOUGH. They're not WIPING OUR NOSES ENOUGH. >> But you tell me specifically where it answers these two simple >> questions..I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > When the MM tells you to or a year, whichever comes first. I anticipated that you would say that, but hoped you had enough brains and class not to. Looks like I was wrong. >> 2) If the MM isn't reset after service, when is the next oil change >> actually >> due? > Gee, you mean it's up to the DRIVER to KNOW HIS CAR and MAINTAIN it, Woah..wait a damn minute..you just said to forget all that and watch when the MM lights up. I am not supposed to know my car..I am just supposed to watch for the little reminder to come on. Like a blind mouse...just follow along and hope its right, because if I "KNOW HIS CAR and MAINTAIN it", then maybe I need to know what mileage Honda recommends I change the motor oil at? You know, in case the MM fails? > including watching the dash and seeing that the MM is reset? > What will we DO? Honda isn't SPOON-FEEDING US ENOUGH. They're not > WIPING OUR NOSES ENOUGH. I don't want them to wipe my nose or spoon feed me at all. I prefer they don't, in fact. Wild thing really at this point is WHY don't you care about knowing this information, and why are you 100% trusting of a computer? Polfus > >> 1) What mileage or interval does Honda recommend you change the oil at? > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Looks like I was wrong. Gee, you mean you didn't want me to say what the owner's manual says? Why not? > > Gee, you mean it's up to the DRIVER to KNOW HIS CAR and MAINTAIN it, > > Woah..wait a damn minute..you just said to forget all that and watch when > the MM lights up. That's what I was talking about. The driver has to pay attention to the dash lights. That's the driver's part of maintaining it. Moron. > I am not supposed to know my car..I am just supposed to watch for the little > reminder to come on. The computer knows your car far, far better than you do. Pay attention to the lights. And what if they're not reset? Why, you as the driver have the responsibility to see that they are reset. What you DON'T have is the responsibility to know when the oil is used up. It's not strictly a function of time. Follow the owner's manual--that is, unless you're a Honda engineer and know something that Honda isn't publishing. Are you a Honda engineer who knows something Honda isn't publishing? > Wild thing really at this point is WHY don't you care about knowing this > information, and why are you 100% trusting of a computer? What information? You're looking for a time/miles table for when to change the oil. Why are you 100% trusting in that? Is that regardless of how you drive the car under whatever conditions? > > The MM computer does take into account distance driven. > > I believe that's most likely the main thought in its electronic brain; i.e. > "..when did I last get reset?" You have no idea what weighting any indicator is given. The computer takes into account miles driven cold, cold starts, RPM above a certain point, etc. You "believe". Ain't that nice. >> > The MM computer does take into account distance driven. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You have no idea what weighting any indicator is given. Agreed. > The computer takes into account miles driven cold, cold starts, RPM above > a certain > point, etc. I understand that, yet remember that its simply an algorhythm that may increase or decrease the interval slightly is all. And ...the bottom line is the *actual degredation of the engine oil*, and there is nothing in a Honda Accord that tests the actual motor oil. Therefore, the motor oil itself is the main factor...regardless of the number of cold starts, RPMs above a certain point, etc... That would require having on-board info in a hard drive that knows the chemical structure, osmolarity, density from the light spectrometer thingy, etc., of each and every oil, which can be chosen by the driver in the dash console, and then having a sensor in the engine that could take a sample of the oil and test it right there inside the car. But that obviously ain't happening, so if the MM tells me I can go longer on my current oil before replacing, then how does it know if my oil is good enough to go longer? What if its already in a state of breakdown and full of carbon? How does it know if I changed all the pistons in my engine and now need a new "coating/break-in" period? It doesn't. Hasn't a clue in this world what to say about all that. Its just a simple little computer that remembers when you last changed the oil for you in case you forget. And if the computer tells me that I need to change my oil, but I know that I can look at the Mobil 1 and see that it is still golden colored on the dipstick, then who's right, especially if the oil manufactuurer states that the interval is longer, and when Honda agrees to follow the synthetic manufacturer's recommendations? The MM still The King? > You "believe". Ain't that nice. Listen, fruitcake...I "believe" your attempts at sarcasm are embryonic at best, so save it for your own toilet and do us both a favor. I like the MM...you need to understand that. I wish Honda gave more info....in case I, as an adult owner of a vehicle that I paid cash for, want to do whatever I want with my own car. Polfus > > The computer takes into account miles driven cold, cold starts, RPM above > > a certain [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Therefore, the motor oil itself is the main factor...regardless of the > number of cold starts, RPMs above a certain point, etc... When you start with a family sedan (not a race car, not a BMW M3--which, by the way, has an oil change indicator just like the Honda...) and specify oil that has a certain industry rating, you know quite a bit about the degradation of the oil. You DO know about the industry standards and ratings for motor oil, don't you? With those in hand, with the specifications in hand, the engineers can VERY CLOSELY determine the oil condition. In fact, the oil specifications spell it all out. All Honda has to do is factor in their engine peculiarities and go from there. You really need to know more about the outside world before you spout off. > > The computer takes into account miles driven cold, cold starts, RPM above > > a certain [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > chemical structure, osmolarity, density from the light spectrometer thingy, > etc., of each and every oil, No, it simple means specifying a minimum standard of motor oil--the specifications of which are published. What is it nowadays--API SJ? Read. It's good for you. >> That would require having on-board info in a hard drive that knows the >> chemical structure, osmolarity, density from the light spectrometer [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > No, it simple means specifying a minimum standard of motor oil--the > specifications of which are published. That helps a consumer grab a quart of oil designed to fit the performance of the engine in use. Still...that does nothing to test the actual condition of the actual motor oil once it's in the engine. > What is it nowadays--API SJ? Yes. > Read. It's good for you. The API SJ designation is a *minimum* standard that oil must meet, but there is no additional designation for outstanding or superior oils within the SJ designation. And here's something to read, even if it directly or indirectly relates to this subject: http://www.infineum.com/information/api-passenger-sj-sl-2004.html http://www.swri.org/4org/d08/GasTests/home.htm Polfus > > No, it simple means specifying a minimum standard of motor oil--the > > specifications of which are published. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Still...that does nothing to test the actual condition of the actual motor > oil once it's in the engine. Were you not reading and paying attention? If the oil starts at a well-known standard, and the engine is built to a well-known standard, and the engineers tested everything like they did, then the system is programmed to understand the known effects on the known oil of known conditions. This is FAR, FAR better than a simple miles/time chart, which the original poster wanted--for no reason other than "well, I've always done it that way". > > Read. It's good for you. > > The API SJ designation is a *minimum* standard that oil must meet, but there > is no additional designation for outstanding or superior oils within the SJ > designation. Yeah? So? Remember, this is a Honda Accord we're talking about--a family car. And Honda's engineers are clear that they recommend the same oil change intervals for space-age billion-dollar-per-quart oil as for Wal-Mart SJ. They've made their stand, and did so years ago--even when all they published was a time/miles chart. So tell me, then, why BMW pioneered this computerized oil change minding system? You'd think their requirements would be much stricter, and their owners would use much higher quality oils, right? And why did BMW do away with the dipstick? >>> That would require having on-board info in a hard drive that knows the >>> chemical structure, osmolarity, density from the light spectrometer [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Still...that does nothing to test the actual condition of the actual motor > oil once it's in the engine. Which is why I use the cheap stuff. The car and minder system is designed with the lowest common denominator in mind. So I figure spending anymore than that is not needed as I would end up changing the better (more expensive stuff) before it was "fully used up" thus wasting the extra money I spent on it. >> Still...that does nothing to test the actual condition of the actual >> motor oil once it's in the engine. > > Which is why I use the cheap stuff. The car and minder system is designed > with the lowest common denominator in mind. Now you're talking, Seth. > So I figure spending anymore than that is not needed as I would end up > changing the better (more expensive stuff) before it was "fully used up" > thus wasting the extra money I spent on it. Makes complete sense to me, man...especially if you maintain your behicle where you change oil *before* its worn out. Peace, Polfus >>> Still...that does nothing to test the actual condition of the actual >>> motor oil once it's in the engine. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Peace, > Polfus hump #9 >>> That would require having on-board info in a hard drive that knows the >>> chemical structure, osmolarity, density from the light spectrometer [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Polfus hump #6 >What is it nowadays--API SJ? The most recent API rating for oils for gasoline engines is SM. http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/EngineOilGuide2006.pdf Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------ Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is provided with this message. >>What is it nowadays--API SJ? > > The most recent API rating for oils for gasoline engines is SM. > http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/EngineOilGuide2006.pdf Thanks for that, Timothy! Interesting that there is no info for degredation properties of motor oils on that. Anyone have a link to such info? Peace, Polfus >>> What is it nowadays--API SJ? >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Peace, > Polfus hump #4 >>> Then why can all that be screwed up if one forgets to reset the >>> Maintenance Minder? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > It is not difficult for a "Honda recommends changing engine oil every > 5,000 miles or 7,000 miles or whatever. But they no longer believe that to be true is why they don't say it. > Because for Honda to dismiss the thing's worth with "...change the engine > oil every year" must still be a recommendation that they are comfortable > with. Cause oil does break down from just sitting there. > Because they are saying that if you don't use the MM, then change the oil > every year. No, they are saying if you haven't done enough driving to trip the MM, then change the oil cause it's starting to break down due to age. > That amazes me to no end...what the hell is the point of being so critical > with the MM when Honda basically says their car will bne fine if you just > change the oil once a year. No, cause if you drive say 15,000 miles a year, the oil needs changing sooner than yearly. How much sooner will depend on length of trip, style of driving, etc... and that's where the MM kicks in. > Do you follow what I'm saying? Yes, but I don't agree and I think that your logic above is flawed. >> The MM computer does take into account distance driven. > > I believe that's most likely the main thought in its electronic brain; > i.e. "..when did I last get reset?" More like, what kind of coinditions have I been faced with and how have they affected the oil since I was last reset. >> Can the computer fail? Yes, but so can a lot of other parts. The owner >> has to stay alert to trouble codes and symptoms. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > is that we cannot accept a car company telling us "just shut the hell up > and do what the computer says". Your welcome to change the oil sooner, just Honda doesn't beleive it is neccessary. The MM can be reset before it's time as well. If you change the oil when it is at say 40%, reset it backl to 100%. > If the computer fails, like H.A.L., then we need back up and info on how > to fix or maintain the dang thing. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > Peace, > Polfus >> It is not difficult for a "Honda recommends changing engine oil every >> 5,000 miles or 7,000 miles or whatever. > > But they no longer believe that to be true is why they don't say it. Well help me then..what is their current thinking? > No, they are saying if you haven't done enough driving to trip the MM, > then change the oil cause it's starting to break down due to age. ?? They are saying that if it doesn't go off its not 'cause of failure to the system, but because the car hasn't been driven enough to make it activate..i.e. enough miles driven to warrant oil change? If thats what you're saying, then I understand...thank you. If thats not what you'r saying, then we'll keep trying. And does Mobil 1 synthetic break down "just sitting there"? I didn't believe it did. > No, cause if you drive say 15,000 miles a year, the oil needs changing > sooner than yearly. How much sooner will depend on length of trip, style > of driving, etc... and that's where the MM kicks in. So you're saying that Honda is saying that "..don't worry..the MM *WILL* work and kick in, but if you don't see the might go off, then you must not be driving a lot so just change once a year". Thats it? > Yes, but I don't agree and I think that your logic above is flawed. Apparently...I believe I see what you mean about this, and I may have been looking at it wrong about the once a year thing, if you're saying what I think you're saying. >> I believe that's most likely the main thought in its electronic brain; >> i.e. "..when did I last get reset?" > More like, what kind of coinditions have I been faced with and how have > they affected the oil since I was last reset. Okay....whats your take on the accuracy of the MM in general? > Your welcome to change the oil sooner, just Honda doesn't beleive it is > neccessary. The MM can be reset before it's time as well. If you change > the oil when it is at say 40%, reset it backl to 100%. Yeah...I did read my manual :) Peace, Polfus >>> It is not difficult for a "Honda recommends changing engine oil every >>> 5,000 miles or 7,000 miles or whatever. >> >> But they no longer believe that to be true is why they don't say it. > > Well help me then..what is their current thinking? That the MM will tell you when the oil needs a change, but if you drive so little that it takes over a year to reach that threshold, chenge it anyhow. >> No, they are saying if you haven't done enough driving to trip the MM, >> then change the oil cause it's starting to break down due to age. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > If thats what you're saying, then I understand...thank you. Yes, that's what I was saying. > If thats not what you'r saying, then we'll keep trying. > > And does Mobil 1 synthetic break down "just sitting there"? I didn't > believe it did. I don't use Mobil 1, nor have I looked into it, so I can't say. >> No, cause if you drive say 15,000 miles a year, the oil needs changing >> sooner than yearly. How much sooner will depend on length of trip, style [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Thats it? As I understand it, yes. >> Yes, but I don't agree and I think that your logic above is flawed. > > Apparently...I believe I see what you mean about this, and I may have been > looking at it wrong about the once a year thing, if you're saying what I > think you're saying. I think we're on the same page. >>> I believe that's most likely the main thought in its electronic brain; >>> i.e. "..when did I last get reset?" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Okay....whats your take on the accuracy of the MM in general? Have it in my wife's '07 Odyssey. Seems to indicate a change at what I perceive to be a reasonable amount of mileage. Not being an automotive engineer, I'm not 100% certain it is correct, but I have faith in the engineers who know more than I. I know that my '01 EX-V6 Accord, which doesn't have the same MM as my wife's '07, I've not been changing the oil till indicated (no percentage gauge, just a flashing light to indicate), I don't change the oil till flashing, use regular old dino oil (or whatever 5W-20 is these days) and my car with just a tad over 199,000 miles is still going strong. >> Your welcome to change the oil sooner, just Honda doesn't beleive it is >> neccessary. The MM can be reset before it's time as well. If you change [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Peace, > Polfus > That the MM will tell you when the oil needs a change, but if you drive so > little that it takes over a year to reach that threshold, chenge it > anyhow. No...I mean do you know what Honda's or the motor oil dudes say about changing oil...the interval, that is? > Yes, that's what I was saying. Outstanding. > I don't use Mobil 1, nor have I looked into it, so I can't say. I wonder....I don't believe that needs changing every year, even if sitting around undriven. > I think we're on the same page. Yup. > Have it in my wife's '07 Odyssey. Seems to indicate a change at what I > perceive to be a reasonable amount of mileage. Not being an automotive > engineer, I'm not 100% certain it is correct, but I have faith in the > engineers who know more than I. Well...I do too, or else I wouldn't have spent my cash on an Accord! > I know that my '01 EX-V6 Accord, which doesn't have the same MM as my > wife's '07, I've not been changing the oil till indicated (no percentage > gauge, just a flashing light to indicate), I don't change the oil till > flashing, use regular old dino oil (or whatever 5W-20 is these days) and > my car with just a tad over 199,000 miles is still going strong. That's awesome.....I was just mentioning that the 200k mark is a big one, and not really the norm. You have definately gotten your money's worth with that '01 Accord. How long you predict it shall last..mileage wise? Peace, Polfus >> That the MM will tell you when the oil needs a change, but if you drive >> so little that it takes over a year to reach that threshold, chenge it >> anyhow. > > No...I mean do you know what Honda's or the motor oil dudes say about > changing oil...the interval, that is? Yeah, when the MM says to or 1 year, whichever comes first. I know of no other. >> Yes, that's what I was saying. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I wonder....I don't believe that needs changing every year, even if > sitting around undriven. I have no scientific fact, only that logically it makes sense. It has contaminants eating away at it even if just sitting there. >> I think we're on the same page. > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > and not really the norm. You have definately gotten your money's worth > with that '01 Accord. How long you predict it shall last..mileage wise? Got home today at 199,178. I fear the engine will last well beyond the transmission. It's being an '01 V6-AT having not had any problems (except for the occasional code (P0980 I think)) it is already on borrowed time. > Yeah, when the MM says to or 1 year, whichever comes first. I know of no > other. Cool..I thought you had other info bec..well..doesn't matter what I thought. > I have no scientific fact, only that logically it makes sense. It has > contaminants eating away at it even if just sitting there. Oh..sorry..I guess I forgot to say that in my example, its fresh oil on a brand new car. In other words, if I have a brand new car and keep it in a garage and start in once every 2 weeks and roll it around the neighborhood once or twice and then park it again, for a year....like maybe 100 miles max in a year, if even. I wonder if its okay for synthetic oil and if it would still, in reality, require replacement even if a MM says so. Is the damn stuff *really* dirty/contaminated/degraded to the point of warranting replacement, even in this extreme example? See what I mean? Because if you do, then you could fairly quickly see that there may be times when the MM is incorrect. > Got home today at 199,178. I fear the engine will last well beyond the > transmission. It's being an '01 V6-AT having not had any problems (except > for the occasional code (P0980 I think)) it is already on borrowed time. Heh...didn't worry about how long it would last like you worry about it now...just 822 miles to go, boyee! Peace, Polfus >> Yeah, when the MM says to or 1 year, whichever comes first. I know of no >> other. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Oh..sorry..I guess I forgot to say that in my example, its fresh oil on a > brand new car. It's not fresh once you open it and put it in an engine. > In other words, if I have a brand new car and keep it in a garage and > start in once every 2 weeks and roll it around the neighborhood once or > twice and then park it again, for a year....like maybe 100 miles max in a > year, if even. It still has contimants in it. Under those circumstances, might it be good for 1.5 yrs instead of 1, probably. But now you're describing an owners manual 1000 pages long while it lists out every possible scenario rather than the most likely that will be economical for all. > I wonder if its okay for synthetic oil and if it would still, in reality, > require replacement even if a MM says so. MM is for the lowest common denominator and won't have a way to differentiate. Honda's have no DINO/SYNTH" switch under the hood. > Is the damn stuff *really* dirty/contaminated/degraded to the point of > warranting replacement, even in this extreme example? How dirty it is, would require taking a sample and sending it for analysis. I'd rather spend the $15 or whatever changing it than $40 for the analysis. > See what I mean? Yeah, but now I think you are looking for extremes. > Because if you do, then you could fairly quickly see that there may be > times when the MM is incorrect. But it's almost always going to be good enough for the masses. >> Got home today at 199,178. I fear the engine will last well beyond the >> transmission. It's being an '01 V6-AT having not had any problems [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Peace, > Polfus > It's not fresh once you open it and put it in an engine. Gotcha. > It still has contimants in it. Under those circumstances, might it be > good for 1.5 yrs instead of 1, probably. But now you're describing an > owners manual 1000 pages long while it lists out every possible scenario > rather than the most likely that will be economical for all. Heh..well put. > MM is for the lowest common denominator and won't have a way to > differentiate. Honda's have no DINO/SYNTH" switch under the hood. Not a bad idea, really... > How dirty it is, would require taking a sample and sending it for > analysis. I'd rather spend the $15 or whatever changing it than $40 for > the analysis. LOL! > Yeah, but now I think you are looking for extremes. Oh sure, admittedly so. > But it's almost always going to be good enough for the masses. Agreed. And post when you hit 200k, will 'ya? Peace, Polfus >> It's not fresh once you open it and put it in an engine. > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Peace, > Polfus hump #15 >> Yeah, when the MM says to or 1 year, whichever comes first. I know of >> no other. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > Peace, > Polfus hump #10 >> And does Mobil 1 synthetic break down "just sitting there"? I didn't >> believe it did. > > I don't use Mobil 1, nor have I looked into it, so I can't say. Just wanted to say I found info that the shelf life of even conventional motor oil is 3 years. So that brings us back to what I was saying to begin with... Peace, Polfus >>> And does Mobil 1 synthetic break down "just sitting there"? I didn't >>> believe it did. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Just wanted to say I found info that the shelf life of even conventional > motor oil is 3 years. "shelf life" is literal - it doesn't mean "installed in the vehicle". when used, oils pick up the combustion product from the engine - this includes acids and other nasties that slowly corrode. if the oil is clean and unused, sure, you can just let it stand. but if it's been used, like a vehicle that's low mileage, you still need to change the oil to remove these contaminants. > So that brings us back to what I was saying to begin with... > > Peace, > Polfus "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote > "shelf life" is literal - it doesn't mean "installed in the vehicle". > when used, oils pick up the combustion product from the engine - this > includes acids and other nasties that slowly corrode. if the oil is > clean and unused, sure, you can just let it stand. but if it's been > used, like a vehicle that's low mileage, you still need to change the > oil to remove these contaminants. Understood. And thanks for the lack of attitude in your reply... Peace, Polfus >> "shelf life" is literal - it doesn't mean "installed in the vehicle". >> when used, oils pick up the combustion product from the engine - this [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Peace, > Polfus hump #11 >>> And does Mobil 1 synthetic break down "just sitting there"? I didn't >>> believe it did. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Just wanted to say I found info that the shelf life of even conventional > motor oil is 3 years. Shelf life value has no meaning when it's in the car. "Shelf Life" = on the shelf, in a sealed container with no contaminants. Once it's in your motor, it no longer fits that criteria. > So that brings us back to what I was saying to begin with... > > Peace, > Polfus >> Just wanted to say I found info that the shelf life of even conventional >> motor oil is 3 years. > > Shelf life value has no meaning when it's in the car. "Shelf Life" = on > the shelf, in a sealed container with no contaminants. Once it's in your > motor, it no longer fits that criteria. Understood, and agreed. I said in another reply, but will again here, for the sake of debate: If I get a brand new car with fresh oil, park it for a year and don't drive it other than to start it and roll it around the neighborhood, with less that 25 miles total on it after 1 year...does what you said still apply fully? Peace, Polfus >>> Just wanted to say I found info that the shelf life of even conventional >>> motor oil is 3 years. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > less that 25 miles total on it after 1 year...does what you said still > apply fully? Once you pop the top, it's not fresh oil. Put it in an engine, it's definitely not fresh. "Hey, that tuna fish that says refrigerate after opening, even if I only open it for a second and take out 1 forkful"??? >>>> Just wanted to say I found info that the shelf life of even >>>> conventional motor oil is 3 years. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > "Hey, that tuna fish that says refrigerate after opening, even if I only > open it for a second and take out 1 forkful"??? LOL! I hear you....that was awesome, btw. Peace, Polfus >>>>> Just wanted to say I found info that the shelf life of even >>>>> conventional motor oil is 3 years. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Peace, > Polfus hump #13 >>> Just wanted to say I found info that the shelf life of even >>> conventional motor oil is 3 years. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Peace, > Polfus hump #14 snip > I know that my '01 EX-V6 Accord, which doesn't have the same MM as my > wife's '07, I've not been changing the oil till indicated (no percentage > gauge, just a flashing light to indicate), I don't change the oil till > flashing, use regular old dino oil (or whatever 5W-20 is these days) and my > car with just a tad over 199,000 miles is still going strong. Super! Please review your oil change receipts, calculate the average oil change interval (miles) and post that. For those not trusting the MM, how's that for a benchmark? > On Feb 4, 9:47 pm, "Seth" <seth_lermanNOS...@hotmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > For those not trusting the MM, how's that for a benchmark? To update the thread, we do have some reports on when the MM is calling for an oil change: Jan 21 JXStern and Elliot Richmond: About every 6k miles, twice now. Jan 13 Joe L.: About every 6k miles, twice now. Aug 5 2007 Santos: About every 6500-6800 miles, four times. Dec 4 2006 John H.: About every 7k miles. > To update the thread, we do have some reports on when the MM > is calling for an oil change: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Aug 5 2007 Santos: About every 6500-6800 miles, four times. > Dec 4 2006 John H.: About every 7k miles. Interesting...thanks for that info! Peace, Polfus >> To update the thread, we do have some reports on when the MM is >> calling for an oil change: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Peace, > Polfus hump #3 >> On Feb 4, 9:47 pm, "Seth" <seth_lermanNOS...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> snip [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Aug 5 2007 Santos: About every 6500-6800 miles, four times. > Dec 4 2006 John H.: About every 7k miles. My '01 V6, a tad over 7k per change. But I'm a high mileage driver. My commute, 3 times a week, is 77 miles each way, very much of it 60+ mph highway. > My '01 V6, a tad over 7k per change. But I'm a high > mileage driver. My commute, 3 times a week, is 77 miles > each way, very much of it 60+ mph highway. Now the question to me is whether a 2008 Maintenance Minder would recommend significantly different mileages between oil changes for city driving vs. highway driving. What again are the inputs to the "oil change reminder" on your 2001? > Now the question to me is whether a 2008 Maintenance Minder > would recommend significantly different mileages between oil > changes for city driving vs. highway driving. Yes. >> My '01 V6, a tad over 7k per change. But I'm a high mileage driver. My >> commute, 3 times a week, is 77 miles each way, very much of it 60+ mph [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > What again are the inputs to the "oil change reminder" on your 2001? Not sure what you mean. > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >>> My '01 V6, a tad over 7k per change. But I'm a high [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Not sure what you mean. Does the 2001's oil change reminder system just monitor miles between the oil changes? Or does it look at oil temps, engine rpm, or something else? > >> What again are the inputs to the "oil change reminder" on > >> your 2001? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > miles between the oil changes? Or does it look at oil temps, > engine rpm, or something else? The flashing yellow "maintenance required" light in the 01 models was strictly based on miles. >> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >>>> My '01 V6, a tad over 7k per change. But I'm a high mileage driver. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Does the 2001's oil change reminder system just monitor miles between the > oil changes? Or does it look at oil temps, engine rpm, or something else? Don't know. But my guess, due to how many miles it goes between indications and the type of driving that I do, is that it does monitor those things. If it didn't, and I were say doing lots of short trips (severe driving), 7k between changes would probably be too long an interval. >>> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >>>>> My '01 V6, a tad over 7k per change. But I'm a high mileage driver. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > didn't, and I were say doing lots of short trips (severe driving), 7k > between changes would probably be too long an interval. Scratch that... Elmo is correct according to page 60 of my owners manual. 0-6000 miles, light off 6000-7500 miles, flash for 10 seconds on startup indicating you are due for service 7500+ miles, remain lit constant (do it now!) So, if one does "severe" driving, they are best to NOT use the maint light as an indicator as to when to change the oil as that interval is much shorter. In looking real close, I found a printing error in the manual. The "edge" writing on the page for normal driving (224) is marked "Maintenance Schedule for Severe Conditions", the same as on page 226 which is indeed the severe schedule page. > Scratch that... Elmo is correct according to page 60 of my owners manual. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Schedule for Severe Conditions", the same as on page 226 which is indeed > the severe schedule page. Interesting.... Peace, Polfus > My '01 V6, a tad over 7k per change. But I'm a high mileage driver. My > commute, 3 times a week, is 77 miles each way, very much of it 60+ mph > highway. Yeah...but still the figures make sense to me at least. Peace, Polfus >> My '01 V6, a tad over 7k per change. But I'm a high mileage driver. >> My commute, 3 times a week, is 77 miles each way, very much of it 60+ [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Peace, > Polfus hump #2 > snip >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Please review your oil change receipts, calculate the average oil > change interval (miles) and post that. Sorry, no receipts. I buy oil at the local CarQuest. A case at a time of whatever is cheapest that visit. Average interval is about 7+ thousand between changes. > For those not trusting the MM, how's that for a benchmark? > Sorry, no receipts. I buy oil at the local CarQuest. A case at a time of > whatever is cheapest that visit. Average interval is about 7+ thousand > between changes. Now see that just makes complete sense to me....change the oil every 6500-7000 miles with today's choices, or the old Mobil 1 Synthetic. Thats what I have been doing with the stuff for 16 years....before there were MMs on Hondas :) Peace, Polfus >> Sorry, no receipts. I buy oil at the local CarQuest. A case at a >> time of whatever is cheapest that visit. Average interval is about 7+ [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Peace, > Polfus hump #1 > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > gimme a general recommendation or two regarding the engine > oil. Ditto what Seth said, except I think you may need a stronger foundation in the engineering here to reason your way through this, with all due respect. Based on my experience, I figure automotive engineers know that, in fact, oil temperature, number of starts, and the other things cited earlier correlate well with how quickly the oil breaks down. These engineering and business types are mostly reasonable people, ya know. They did not just make up that oil breakdown depends largely on all the aforementioned conditions. I should add I base some of my faith on a Consumer Reports article that studied taxicabs in NYC and especially oil quality, so as to give counsel on when to change oil. IIRC, even with the severe duty of cabs, CR found changing the oil every 7000 miles or so should be fine. Google for the whole article. >> The MM computer does take into account distance driven. > > I believe that's most likely the main thought in its > electronic brain; i.e. "..when did I last get reset?" If this were true, then the MM really would not serve a purpose. I think it's taking miles driven under X, Y, and Z conditions and putting this into an algorithm. > So all Honda has to do is explain it more with backup info > for their general plan for oil changes and filter changes > in case Ye Olde MM fails...if they did that, I don't think > we'd be having this conversation right now. Shucks, Polfus, maybe Honda should print the local city bus schedule in each owner's manual as well. This would be the ultimate backup. The point is there are limits. Tradeoffs. Engineers and the business managers weigh tradeoffs. If you can't list a dozen potential tradeoffs for the MM system right now, even if you're just a beginner with cars, then you're not seeing the whole picture. For now, Honda figures the MM design is an asset to the business. For all I know some country somewhere also is looking to come down on auto manufacturers for all that used engine oil, radiator coolant, etc. being dumped into the environment. Getting people who drive their cars under normal conditions to discard the "change the oil every 3k miles" is not going to be easy. But if it's legislated by some country or another... whence the MM. >>If forced to bet, I'd bet the MM is useful for at least >>oil changes, with the caveat that I'd like more input on [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > etc...which I really have a hard time believing is that > effective if at all. Do you know why they do not put an engine oil chemistry monitor on every Honda automobile? > 2) So, since they don't use any such sensor to test the > oil, there needs to be no distinction between the two [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > point that we should follow the new recommendations of the > synthetic oil manufacturer; i.e. Mobil 1's guidelines. Where does Honda say this? I just checked, at random, a 2002 Civic owner's manual. It says follow the same maintenance schedule as one would for non-synth oil. > 6) Never underestimates the power of greed and money, and > refer back to #5. I agree, and I do not say this casually. It's what's behind the counsel here to never trust a dealership when it comes to fixing and maintaining one's car. > Ditto what Seth said, except I think you may need a stronger foundation in > the engineering here to reason your way through this, with all due > respect. Hey no worries.... I just wanna talk Hondas so I can learn whatever it is I need to. > Based on my experience, I figure automotive engineers know that, in fact, > oil temperature, number of starts, and the other things cited earlier > correlate well with how quickly the oil breaks down. Oh sure...I agree and know this. I also said I am glad to have the MM...I just wish Honda woulda given a general timelime is all. More so I can know how much to set aside when a big service job is coming up..know what I mean? Stuff that I can't do myself. > These engineering and business types are mostly reasonable people, ya > know. Well...at least the engineering types are :) > They did not just make up that oil breakdown depends largely on all the > aforementioned conditions. Agreed. Though some degree of it may be marketing, you may admit. > I should add I base some of my faith on a Consumer Reports article that > studied taxicabs in NYC and especially oil quality, so as to give counsel > on when to change oil. IIRC, even with the severe duty of cabs, CR found > changing the oil every 7000 miles or so should be fine. Google for the > whole article. Read it already...here's another one, some videos . Check out the Las Vegas one: "Mobil 1 Extended Performance Field Testing" http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Videos/TV.aspx > If this were true, then the MM really would not serve a purpose. Agreed. > I think it's taking miles driven under X, Y, and Z conditions and putting > this into an algorithm. Agreed. > Shucks, Polfus, maybe Honda should print the local city bus schedule in > each owner's manual as well. This would be the ultimate backup. LOL! That was a good one. > The point is there are limits. Tradeoffs. Engineers and the business > managers weigh tradeoffs. If you can't list a dozen potential tradeoffs > for the MM system right now, even if you're just a beginner with cars, > then you're not seeing the whole picture. For now, Honda figures the MM > design is an asset to the business. Agreed. And a dozen tradeoffs? Hmm...thats kinda hard actually. 1) Potential decreased needless oil changes; 2) visual reminder system to owner to maintain vehicle; 3) less global impact with this reduced oil consumption on the Earth's natural resources; 4) allowing an owner to be notified if they need oil changes sooner than normal due to driving conditions experienced and computed by the MM; 5) improved protection of the car's internal parts thereby potentially allowing the car to last longer with fewer oil-related break-downs; 6) increased protection for the driver/occupants because of the MM system notifying owner of service needs which may prove fatal if not serviced as recommended; 7) Less global waste from oil pollution with decreased oil changes and the need to safely dispose of the left-over oil/filter; 8) Decreasing unnecessary costs related to sneaky mechanics saying you need an oil change, for example, when you in fact do not, and the car verifies this in the MM; 9) ... Well..thats all I can get for now...go ahead and gimme 4 more, would ya? > For all I know some country somewhere also is looking to come down on auto > manufacturers for all that used engine oil, radiator coolant, etc. being > dumped into the environment. Getting people who drive their cars under > normal conditions to discard the "change the oil every 3k miles" is not > going to be easy. But if it's legislated by some country or another... > whence the MM. Agreed...well said too. > Do you know why they do not put an engine oil chemistry monitor on every > Honda automobile? Cost? Beats me...tell me please. >> 3) When you use a synthetic oil, Honda states at that point that we >> should follow the new recommendations of the synthetic oil manufacturer; [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > manual. It says follow the same maintenance schedule as one would for > non-synth oil. Dude..my bad. Its the same..Honda says in the 2008 as well to do what it says in the information display, even when using synthetic. >> 6) Never underestimates the power of greed and money, and refer back to >> #5. > > I agree, and I do not say this casually. It's what's behind the counsel > here to never trust a dealership when it comes to fixing and maintaining > one's car. Problem is we gotta trust 'em some...scary to know whats the truth, so thats another reason why I would like all the info I could get on my car, especially on things like changing oil/filter and some kind of guideline other that "trust the computer and shut up". Peace, Polfus E wrote > so I can know how much to set aside when a big service job > is coming up..know what I mean? Stuff that I can't do > myself. I thought the MM does sort of organize things so one can tell readily whether "Major service" with myriad items is due, and when a simply oil change is due. >> These engineering and business types are mostly >> reasonable people, ya know. > > Well...at least the engineering types are :) Engineers are as corrupted by the almighty buck as the next guy. Case in point: The Big Dig (Boston tunnel) collapsed a few years ago killing a woman. It's pretty clear the engineers made some poor choices based in economics (= more profit for their companies). The Army Corps of Engineers has been under fire since Hurricane Katrina for accepting levy design. From my experience, the truth is that to keep one's job in engineering one had better bring things in ostensibly safe but also under budget. It was the people as much as anything that demanded cheap. An ethical engineer with the Army Corps is in a tough position. His/her only choice is to stick around and hope to make things a little safer but really not safe enough. Or leave. The auto industry has had many engineers who have bowed to economic demands to keep their jobs. That's pointing a finger at the engineers, mind you, not the business people. Sometimes the good fight is worth it. You say, "No. I am not going to do this." The really intelligent ones discreetly point out the bad publicity for putting in unsafe engineering blah blah will cost more than the company stands to make. >> They did not just make up that oil breakdown depends >> largely on all the aforementioned conditions. > > Agreed. Though some degree of it may be marketing, you may > admit. Marketing for selling those cars with a MM, sure. Sales guy says, "And look at the 2008 model's Maintenance Minder! This car is a bargain for all that the MM provides!" Apart from the higher purchase price the MM produces, I think the MM does likely save money for maintenance. Does the maintenance savings justify the extra initial purchase price? Maybe. >> I should add I base some of my faith on a Consumer >> Reports article that studied taxicabs in NYC and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Videos/TV.aspx Mobil oil did this. Ya think there's a conflict of interest? >> The point is there are limits. Tradeoffs. Engineers and >> the business managers weigh tradeoffs. If you can't list [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > And a dozen tradeoffs? Added cost of MM vs. possible lower sales due to higher price of car. Will having a rad coolant change feature in the MM justify the added cost of this feature? Same goes for the other dozen or so items the MM reports on. Volume taken by MM vs. using the space for a larger windshield washer bottle <wink> Locating Maintenance Minder in XYZ vs. ABC, pros and cons. MM sensor etc. failure rate cost vs. cost of doing maintenance prematurely over life of car. Your tradeoffs are in the same vein. Point is it's not perfect. Honda estimates it to be an improvement and of course worth every penny to customers. ;-) >> Do you know why they do not put an engine oil chemistry >> monitor on every Honda automobile? > > Cost? Beats me...tell me please. Cost. Space. Evidently BMW and Mercedes do have an oil chemistry monitor built into their cars, as Tegger noted recently and as I just confirmed. I also see something called an "Intellistick" available for the wealthy playboy grease monkey to purchase for monitoring oil chemistry. $500. >>> 3) When you use a synthetic oil, Honda states at that >>> point that we should follow the new recommendations of [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Problem is we gotta trust 'em some... Most folks do indeed have to. Their time is too valuable to hang out here. > scary to know whats the truth, so thats another reason why > I would like all the info I could get on my car, > especially on things like changing oil/filter and some > kind of guideline other that "trust the computer and shut > up". Agreed. > The auto industry has had many engineers who have bowed to > economic demands to keep their jobs. And yes, Honda engineers are included in that bunch. But that particular nasty episode in Honda's history is--well, just that. History. >> Well...at least the engineering types are :) > > Engineers are as corrupted by the almighty buck as the next guy. Case in > point: The Big Dig (Boston tunnel) collapsed a few years ago killing a > woman. It's pretty clear the engineers made some poor choices based in > economics (= more profit for their companies). Well...if you put it like that, I must agree. > The Army Corps of Engineers has been under fire since Hurricane Katrina > for accepting levy design. From my experience, the truth is that to keep > one's job in engineering one had better bring things in ostensibly safe > but also under budget. It was the people as much as anything that demanded > cheap. An ethical engineer with the Army Corps is in a tough position. Heh...I hear you. > His/her only choice is to stick around and hope to make things a little > safer but really not safe enough. Or leave. Goddamn corrupt bureaucracy sucks a.s, and we both know it. > The auto industry has had many engineers who have bowed to economic > demands to keep their jobs. That's pointing a finger at the engineers, > mind you, not the business people. Sometimes the good fight is worth it. > You say, "No. I am not going to do this." The really intelligent ones > discreetly point out the bad publicity for putting in unsafe engineering > blah blah will cost more than the company stands to make. Yeah...then they become objects of scrutinization. > Marketing for selling those cars with a MM, sure. Sales guy says, "And > look at the 2008 model's Maintenance Minder! This car is a bargain for all > that the MM provides!" > > Apart from the higher purchase price the MM produces, I think the MM does > likely save money for maintenance. How much does the thing cost, by the way..any idea as to what it marks a car up, generally? > Does the maintenance savings justify the extra initial purchase price? > Maybe. If the car lasts, sure...but still..I would love to see some final results based on models that have gone the distance and see what their saving were...if any. >> "Mobil 1 Extended Performance Field Testing" >> >> http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Videos/TV.aspx > > Mobil oil did this. Ya think there's a conflict of interest? Yeah...sure...just thought you may like to see it is all..not saying its the Bible or anything..just trying to share was all. >> And a dozen tradeoffs? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of this feature? Same goes for the other dozen or so items the MM reports > on. Yeah..I hear you. > Volume taken by MM vs. using the space for a larger windshield washer > bottle <wink> LOL! > Locating Maintenance Minder in XYZ vs. ABC, pros and cons. > > MM sensor etc. failure rate cost vs. cost of doing maintenance prematurely > over life of car. > > Your tradeoffs are in the same vein. Its hard getting 12, isn't it? I thought you were being a little harsh :) 12 is hard to get to, damnit! >>> Do you know why they do not put an engine oil chemistry monitor on every >>> Honda automobile? >> >> Cost? Beats me...tell me please. > > Cost. Space. Yeah..figured as much. > Evidently BMW and Mercedes do have an oil chemistry monitor built into > their cars, as Tegger noted recently and as I just confirmed. !!!!! THAT's is what I am talking about...not just the little Honda MM thingy. Glad to see that I am thinking correctly here...I know damn well its the only way to really tell when the suff needs changing. > I also see something called an "Intellistick" available for the wealthy > playboy grease monkey to purchase for monitoring oil chemistry. > > $500. YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Check it out, Elle: http://www.intellistick.com/ http://reviews.cnet.com/4660-10863_7-6797519.html?tag=vid.1 Thats EXACTLY what the hell I was thinking of....fugg this damn MM bullshit... TEST THE DAMN OIL ITSELF...its the ONLY accurate method!!!!! The interface with BlueTooth....foget all that or the readout....the concept is what I mean. >> scary to know whats the truth, so thats another reason why I would like >> all the info I could get on my car, especially on things like changing >> oil/filter and some kind of guideline other that "trust the computer and >> shut up". > > Agreed. Well...thank you! Peace, Polfus > > Apart from the higher purchase price the MM produces, I think the MM does > > likely save money for maintenance. > > How much does the thing cost, by the way..any idea as to what it marks a car > up, generally? The computer is already in the car. The costs to write the program that keeps track of this stuff and triggers the light is practically zero. > > Evidently BMW and Mercedes do have an oil chemistry monitor built into > > their cars, as Tegger noted recently and as I just confirmed. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Glad to see that I am thinking correctly here...I know damn well its the > only way to really tell when the suff needs changing. But go to the tradeoff again: if I know all about the oil going into it, and I know about the engine, and I've tested environmental factors, I bet I can get 95% close to the oil chemistry monitor just by monitoring environment and performance factors. If I can do that, why would I spend $XXX more to put in the oil chemistry monitor? It's return on investment. The return is minimal. This is an Accord, not an M3. The guy buying the M3 loves seeing something like that on a features chart. The guy buying an Accord couldn't care less. Diminishing returns. Yeah, if you're a freako who has to know down to the 18th decimal place exactly what's happening in your life, fine--go analyze your oil. If you're an average Accord buyer, the 95% level is more than good enough. > But go to the tradeoff again: if I know all about the oil going into > it, and I know about the engine, and I've tested environmental factors, > I bet I can get 95% close to the oil chemistry monitor just by > monitoring environment and performance factors. Well..if you put it like that, I would have to say I understand what you mean. > If I can do that, why would I spend $XXX more to put in the oil > chemistry monitor? I don't know Elmo....why does anyone put more money into an air filter, or or rims, or GPS equipment in their car? Its just more sh.t to have, I guess. But if it were free, wouldn't you appreciate it in your Honda? > It's return on investment. The return is minimal. This is an Accord, > not an M3. The guy buying the M3 loves seeing something like that on a > features chart. The guy buying an Accord couldn't care less. Not may not be 100% true, but I see what you mean. > Diminishing returns. Yeah, if you're a freako who has to know down to > the 18th decimal place exactly what's happening in your life, fine--go > analyze your oil. If you're an average Accord buyer, the 95% level is > more than good enough. I hope you didn't take off your glasses before you read that I am glad for the MM. I plan on following it. Peace, Polfus > > If I can do that, why would I spend $XXX more to put in the oil > > chemistry monitor? > > I don't know Elmo....why does anyone put more money into an air filter, or > or rims, or GPS equipment in their car? Because they want to. But I was asking the question from the standpoint of the Honda engineer. ROI is nil on spending the bucks to add an oil chemistry monitor. BMW has one; that's fine. The cost of that was evaluated against the fact that BMW pays for four years of routine maintenance on their cars. It made financial sense to them. >>> If I can do that, why would I spend $XXX more to put in the oil >>> chemistry monitor? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > fact that BMW pays for four years of routine maintenance on their cars. > It made financial sense to them. they don't have a chemistry monitor [polfus is mistaken] - they [some, not all] have a spark spectrometer, a comparatively simple device similar to that used for rudimentary routine oil analysis for fleet maintenance. as you say, it makes financial sense for bmw for the reasons you state, and also because they are looking to take the car to the absolute limit of lubricant life. [and that in itself is another story.] btw, are we done with this thread yet? i'm getting bored with wading through all this childish b.s. >> BMW has one; that's fine. The cost of that was evaluated against the >> fact that BMW pays for four years of routine maintenance on their cars. >> It made financial sense to them. > > they don't have a chemistry monitor [polfus is mistaken] - Wrong again, loser..."Polfus" never said a word about BMW. Not one single word about BMW. Therefore, this shows that you are unable to read with comprehension. > btw, are we done with this thread yet? i'm getting bored with wading > through all this childish b.s. Don't let the door hit you in the a.s on the way out. Polfus >>> BMW has one; that's fine. The cost of that was evaluated against the >>> fact that BMW pays for four years of routine maintenance on their [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Don't let the door hit you in the a.s on the way out. how old are you, post humper? "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote >>>> BMW has one; that's fine. The cost of that was evaluated against the >>>> fact that BMW pays for four years of routine maintenance on their [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> >> Don't let the door hit you in the a.s on the way out. > how old are you, post humper? You're having a meltdown, and I love it. Bottom line: you were wrong. Polfus >> Polfus wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Polfus au contraire post humper. how old /are/ you polfus? >>> how old are you, post humper? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> Polfus > au contraire post humper. how old /are/ you polfus? Again, you prove my point. Aren't you supposed to be tired of this thread, or at least posting stuff with "Honda merit"..you know, to practice what you preach and all that? M-E-L-T-D-O-W-N. LOL! Polfus > > au contraire post humper. how old /are/ you polfus? > > Again, you prove my point. Nice avoidance of the question. snip > btw, are we done with this thread yet? snip Done? I'm still waiting from someone to upbraid Honda for omitting an oil pressure measure from the MM. "ACAR" <dimndsonmywndshld@yahoo.com> wrote > Done? > I'm still waiting from someone to upbraid Honda for omitting an oil > pressure measure from the MM. ! Peace, Polfus >> > If I can do that, why would I spend $XXX more to put in the oil >> > chemistry monitor? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Because they want to. Then there's your answer, and you said it yourself. Polfus "Polfus" <nostringscouldsecureyou@thestation> wrote About "professionals" who compromise to save or to make money > Goddamn corrupt bureaucracy sucks a.s, and we both know > it. I think it's the people (all of us) who tolerate mediocrity to save a buck that is bad. > How much does the thing cost, by the way..any idea as to > what it marks a car up, generally? No idea. You're as handy with google as I. >> Your tradeoffs are in the same vein. > > Its hard getting 12, isn't it? No. I have a background in this sort of thing. Being old and so seeing how "X was chosen instead of Y, even though X offers these advantages. But Y offers these." Life is not black and white. Real engineering is not black and white. Countless tradeoffs in every car design. >> Evidently BMW and Mercedes do have an oil chemistry >> monitor built into their cars, as Tegger noted recently >> and as I just confirmed. > > !!!!! Yes, I saw your links on the Mercedes system. Those will help the archives of this newsgroup, AFAIC. > TEST THE DAMN OIL ITSELF...its the ONLY accurate > method!!!!! You have two reports on Mercedes' system. One is http://www.lubereport.com/e_article000146166.cfm, and the other cites an Q and A from an online forum (I guess). They contradict each other, with one saying oil chemistry is monitored to some extent and the other saying not, so I am not sure what exactly the truth is. snipping lots, because with all due respect, the newsgroup needs to be dedicated to everyday problems car owners are having. > I think it's the people (all of us) who tolerate mediocrity to save a buck > that is bad. Agreed. >> How much does the thing cost, by the way..any idea as to what it marks a >> car up, generally? > > No idea. You're as handy with google as I. I don't imagine its really all that expensive, Elle. > No. I have a background in this sort of thing. Being old and so seeing how > "X was chosen instead of Y, even though X offers these advantages. But Y > offers these." Life is not black and white. Real engineering is not black > and white. Countless tradeoffs in every car design. No doubt. > Yes, I saw your links on the Mercedes system. Those will help the archives > of this newsgroup, AFAIC. I thought it was interesting. > You have two reports on Mercedes' system. One is > http://www.lubereport.com/e_article000146166.cfm, and the other cites an Q > and A from an online forum (I guess). They contradict each other, with one > saying oil chemistry is monitored to some extent and the other saying not, > so I am not sure what exactly the truth is. 2 points: 1) The Mercedes Q/A is: "It also monitors the quality of the oil -particles in suspension and other factors - and it can judge when the oil has deteriorated to the extent that it needs to be replaced. Without this kind of comprehensive analysis - in other words, if you had no way of determining the state of the oil in the crankcase." Without direct testing, "you [have] no way of determining the state of the oil in the crankcase." and 2) Even Mercedes engineers get it wrong, and their FSS system showed that. > snipping lots, because with all due respect, the newsgroup needs to be > dedicated to everyday problems car owners are having. Okay fine...nice talking with you anyway. Peace, Polfus Follow the maintenance minder, or service once a year, which ever occurs first. Include tire rotation too. This is right out of the service manual: If the message ''SERVICE'' does not appear more than 12 months after the display is reset, change the engine oil every year. NOTE: Replace the brake fluid every 3 years (Independent of the maintenance messages in the information display). Inspect the idle speed every 160,000 miles (256,000 km). > Hi, I recently bought a new 2008 Honda Civic Sedan EX after my older > model (2005) was totalled during a car accident. I'm still getting [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > say, get your oil change etc or your typical 10,000-interval mile > service to a shop (like tire rotation, brake fluid check, etc)? Your questions are perfectly well-communicated. Furthermore, they are asked so often this ought to be an FAQ. I have read a fair amount on Honda's maintenance minder over the last several years. I have also read reports here on when it has signaled that the oil is due for a change. In my opinion, one can rely on it (of course; the engineers are not dummies) instead of many old customs such as change the oil every 5000 miles/6 months (or whatever one's preferred frequency is based on driving conditions). Of course few read the owner's manual cover to cover. Issues certainly arise that are not covered in the owner's manual and so need to be addressed either by Honda subsequently; word of mouth; etc. How the Maintenance Minder works is not covered in the manual. The first time I heard about this latest bell-whistle-gizmo, I was not trusting until I had at least a basic description of how the MM computer yada worked. As for the flack from a few parties here: It represents the usual cowardice to troubleshoot the whole problem. The whole problem of course includes not only the car's ailment but also communicating effectively how to fix the car's ailment. How much brains does it take to communicate simple, literal principles? I actually think the usual shadetree mechanic or highly trained technician has more than enough brains to do so. Many "just" need to have it pointed out to them that the problem is two-fold and be asked to think in advance: What's going to get us to the practical solution quickest and with the greatest future return on my time's investment? Some are just troll-ish out of sport. Usenet and all. Post-back if you want some links on how the Maintenance Minder works. > Hi, I recently bought a new 2008 Honda Civic Sedan EX > after my older [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > service to a shop (like tire rotation, brake fluid check, > etc)? > Your questions are perfectly well-communicated. Furthermore, > they are asked so often this ought to be an FAQ. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > oil every 5000 miles/6 months (or whatever one's preferred > frequency is based on driving conditions). Great. That's all I wanted to hear. If people were just to respond with the same courtesy and respect like you did, I don't think this thread would've gone this long. I personally like this schedule minder, but since this is the first time I've driven a vehicle with this feature, I think its just natural to ask how accurate this is and what other people think of it. But if from what you heard is that it is fairly accurate, then that's great. I also would like to hear how other people think of it from their experience. But as you can tell, I thought I asked a very basic question and I expected a fairly straightforward response. I have little tolerance to those who respond with no courtesy or respect, just so they can feel like they're superior or know more than others. > Of course few read the owner's manual cover to cover. Issues > certainly arise that are not covered in the owner's manual [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Post-back if you want some links on how the Maintenance > Minder works. Actually, that would be great if you don't mind sending some links about this Maintenance Minder. Do you know if this is unique to the new Honda models only or do most cars have this technology now? As I mentioned, before my new car I drove a 2005 Honda Civic. My dealer tells me with my old car that to keep it in good condition, to always do scheduled maintenance of every 10,000 miles (minor service, in addition to oil change at every 5000...then I think major service every 30,000). With the new maintenance minder, do you think this concept still applies? On Feb 3, 7:26 am, "Elle" <honda.lion...@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote: > Actually, that would be great if you don't mind sending some links > about this Maintenance Minder. Do you know if this is unique to the > new Honda models only or do most cars have this technology now? It's become fairly common. I can say that BMW and Chevy have been doing it for a number of years. > As I mentioned, before my new car I drove a 2005 Honda Civic. My > dealer tells me with my old car that to keep it in good condition, to > always do scheduled maintenance of every 10,000 miles (minor service, > in addition to oil change at every 5000...then I think major service > every 30,000). With the new maintenance minder, do you think this > concept still applies? That concept still applies, for adding income to the dealership. Did your previous owners manual jive with that? > that would be great if you don't mind sending > some links about this Maintenance Minder. I think the most detailed and most reputable description of the MM on the net is at http://www.honda.ca/HondaCA2006/YourHonda/HondaService . On the left highlight "Honda Service," click on "Maintenance Calculator," choose year and model, then click on "Complete Maintenance Schedule." The following appears there: "The maintenance requirements for your [Honda vehicle] are determined by an internal algorithm, which considers the engine starting temperature, driving distance and engine RPM. The onboard computer also judges your driving conditions and habits, and then calculates the remaining engine oil life, displaying it as a percentage." More links follow. > Do you know if this is unique to the new Honda > models only or do most cars have this technology now? From general reading, I doubt it is a majority of new vehicles that have this right now. I do see internet discussions on the Chevy Ventura supporting what Seth posted. This Chevy's MM seems similar to the newer Hondas'. I googled {"maintenance minder" Chevy} to find this. Pardon if I am stating the obvious, but often the internet is worth googling first. Admittedly, though, sometimes information is so arcane that a much more intensive search is needed. That description above is not all over the internet, for one. I do not remember how I found it a few years ago, but it is not in the top ten hits using a few keywords, for example. A lot of folks have raised concerns about the MM like those posted in this thread. The ones that come up a lot on the net, and the best responses I see to them, follow. 1. Does the MM account for severe duty (especially with regard to oil life)? For this, many anecdotal reports on the web reference a Honda Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) from 2005 on this. It is titled "Taking the Mystery Out of the Maintenance Minder System," TSB #09012005, NHTSA #10018482. It is reproduced at forums like: http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=583156. It says, "The system counts down oil life based on engine operating conditions (both normal and severe). If the engine runs at higher temperatures and rpm, or at low temperatures during short trips, the oil life will deplete faster than an engine running under more normal conditions." The description at the Canada site at the top seems to back this up. Also, here is a post where someone reports that he tested the oil quality and compared it to the MM's recommendations for changing the oil: "[The Maintenance Minder] is pretty accurate as I have done used oil analysis and the life expectancy shown on the reports coincides with what our oil life monitor tells us." See http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums//showthread.php?t=15095 2. Does the MM take driving in dusty conditions into account? What about driving for a long time while not meeting the MM's criteria for all the operating conditions listed at the Canada site above? The MM does not take account of dusty air filters or any other system vulnerable to dust. Nor does it factor in the actual time in days, months, or years that, say, oil or whatever fluid is in the car. This is covered in the owner's manual in the MM sections. The owner must monitor time (in days, months, or years) on his/her own. As Polfus noted, the rule is 'Change the oil per the MM or once a year, whichever comes first,' is the actual rule. Engine oil evidently is not all that vulnerable to dust from dusty roads. I do buy this at present. Some common sense is still appropriate. E.g. if someone adds a cup of dirt via the engine oil fill hole, then I recommend an oil change. 3. Does the MM distinguish between the use of synthetic oil and non-synth. oil? No, but then Honda has always specified the same intervals regardless of which type of oil one uses. 4. How do I know the MM was reset after a dealer (or anyone) does an oil change? If the MM does not read "Oil Life 100%" right after you pull out of the shop, then the shop failed to reset it. The Owner's Manual has instructions for resetting in its maintenance minder section. Should take just a few minutes to get through the instructions and reset the MM. I gather this resetting of the MM is possible for any system the MM monitors. 5. A good "official Honda" site that gives what the codes mean and also exactly what systems the MM minds: http://www.imakenews.com/londonhonda/e_article000875876.cfm?x=b11,0,w Mostly this is just an excerpt from an owner's manual. > My dealer tells me with my old car that > to keep it in good condition, to always do [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > every 30,000). With the new maintenance > minder, do you think this concept still applies? This concept does not apply to either older cars without an MM or new ones with an MM. As others have noted, dealers are not a part of Honda corporation. Dealer service centers are in the business of selling services and new parts, often whether your car needs them or not. For maintenance, follow the owner's manual and MM. If any shop tells you to do something otherwise, you can post here or at other Honda fora and get opinions. Generally the best decision will come out of such discussions, based on much real life experience and dissection by the ultimate marketplace of ideas, the net. "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote > Your questions are perfectly well-communicated. Furthermore, > they are asked so often this ought to be an FAQ. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Some are just troll-ish out of sport. Usenet and all. Amen. Well said...excellently put. > Post-back if you want some links on how the Maintenance > Minder works. I sure would enjoy reading more about it, please. Peace, Polfus >> Some are just troll-ish out of sport. Usenet and all. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Peace, > Polfus Let me interject something here. I have a 2008 Accord and its the same situation about the missing maintainance schedule at least what you are looking for. I totally understand your arguement here. My dealer had to give me a paper to show me aprox what to do at certain mileage for this reason after explaining a little about the maint minder. Basically (under normal driving) what I understand is that at 5000 mi you do the oil change. At 10000 mi you have the tires rotated, oil and filter and a few other things get inspected. Then 5000 mi more and another oil change, then 5000 mi more to make a total of 20000 mi on the car you get an oil change, tire rotation, air filter change, adjust the parking and rear brakes, battery terminals cleaned and a few other inspections on exhaust etc etc. 5000 mi service=$30.00 10000 mi service=$110.00 20000 mi service=$200.00 *based on my local area. > My dealer had to give > me a paper to show me aprox what to do at certain mileage for this reason Your dealer doesn't want you to follow the MM, because he makes less money than if you follow a paper time/miles schedule. You got suckered. >> My dealer had to give >> me a paper to show me aprox what to do at certain mileage for this reason [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You got suckered. Your comment is *MOOT* if the dude changes the oil himself. Think about it, preferably before you start typing. Polfus >>> My dealer had to give >>> me a paper to show me aprox what to do at certain mileage for this [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Polfus do you drain your gas tank every week, discard what you drain, then buy new gas? you may as well with the above bizarre logic. hump #7 > >> My dealer had to give > >> me a paper to show me aprox what to do at certain mileage for this reason [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Your comment is *MOOT* if the dude changes the oil himself. Nope. The dealer would love to have the money, so he threw out the generous (to the dealer) schedule. That schedule is still generous even if the dealer doesn't do the work. The poor sucker still buys the oil, etc, and still spends MORE of his time under the car than he has to. His personal time has value, eh? Or don't you value your personal time? Regardless, ignoring the MM and insisting that the dealer give you a time/miles schedule results in higher and unnecessary expense. Think next time. >> Your comment is *MOOT* if the dude changes the oil himself. > > Nope. Yup. > The dealer would love to have the money, so he threw out the > generous (to the dealer) schedule. But he would see no money for oil/filter changes if the dude did them himself. > That schedule is still generous even if the dealer doesn't do the work. > The poor sucker still buys the oil, etc, and still spends MORE of his > time under the car than he has to. Well...theoretically, yes. > His personal time has value, eh? Or don't you value your personal time? Trick question? > Regardless, ignoring the MM and insisting that the dealer give you a > time/miles schedule results in higher and unnecessary expense. I hear you. > Think next time. Well not everyone can be as smart as you. But if you were really smart you would have already known this,and not felt the need to insult the guy's intelligence. Besides...it doesn't hurt to him to ask for this, especially if all it is, is for personal info. Whether or not he follows it remains to be seen. Polfus > >> Your comment is *MOOT* if the dude changes the oil himself. > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > But he would see no money for oil/filter changes if the dude did them > himself. But the dude in question would still spend money he doesn't have to spend. That was my point, which you either couldn't see because you're so blind, or refused to acknowledge because you're...so blind. "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote > But the dude in question would still spend money he doesn't have to > spend. That was my point, which you either couldn't see because you're > so blind, or refused to acknowledge because you're...so blind. You have any mirrors in your house? Polfus > Let me interject something here. I have a 2008 Accord and its the same > situation about the missing maintainance schedule at least what you are [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > *based on my local area. Thank you, Alfred, for that. I *know* Honda has some guidelines...whether or not they make it public and in the Owner's Manual is another story... Peace, Polfus > > looking for. I totally understand your arguement here. My dealer had to > > give me a paper to show me aprox what to do at certain mileage for this [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I *know* Honda has some guidelines...whether or not they make it public and > in the Owner's Manual is another story... Dude, you are just plain ignorant. HONDA doesn't have any time/miles guidelines. It all depends on how you drive your car and under what conditions. His LOCAL DEALER has some guidelines. And those guidelines are aimed at putting money into the local dealer's pocket. Do you really think that the piece of paper this dealer hands out comes from Honda in any way, shape, or form? A 20K service is $200?? You are a sucker, a dealership's dream. Honda gives you the information right in front of you, in the MM. But you take the independent dealer's word that you should ignore that and "follow my schedule, here". He's making money off this paranoia hand over fist. >> I *know* Honda has some guidelines...whether or not they make it public >> and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > HONDA doesn't have any time/miles guidelines. It all depends on how you > drive your car and under what conditions. I GUARANTEE you Honda has some kind of general guidelines, the same ones they used to build the algorithm you refer to for the MM. If they had no general idea, then how the hell did they come up with the MM schedule to begin with? You get it? > His LOCAL DEALER has some guidelines. And those guidelines are aimed at > putting money into the local dealer's pocket. Your position of that matter is quite clear. > Do you really think that the piece of paper this dealer hands out comes > from Honda in any way, shape, or form? I couldn't say really...have to ask the dealer where they came up with that if you want the real answer and not a guess. > A 20K service is $200?? I don't know what it costs..what do you think it should cost for the 20K service? > You are a sucker, a dealership's dream. Now I know you're crazy....do I seem like *anyone's* dream? LOL! And no....they don't see me unless its something I can't do myself. > Honda gives you the information right in front of you, in the MM. But > you take the independent dealer's word that you should ignore that and > "follow my schedule, here". He's making money off this paranoia hand > over fist. Never met or been to the dealer he goes to, so....beats me. Polfus > > HONDA doesn't have any time/miles guidelines. It all depends on how you > > drive your car and under what conditions. > > I GUARANTEE you Honda has some kind of general guidelines, the same ones > they used to build the algorithm you refer to for the MM. Those aren't "general guidelines". Those are SPECIFIC guidelines. Since Honda engineers now have a computer which can store quite a bit of data and algorithms, and can access quite a bit of data about the engine and its operating conditions, they can program SPECIFIC rules about oil wear. Honda's guidelines are, follow our program that's in the computer. That's all. That's it. That's all that's needed. And they're saying, "you can't possibly evaluate, on your own, the same information we're evaluating for you". So, no time/miles general guidelines. Only the dealer has such a set of general guidelines, and only because it makes money for the dealer. Do you know one reason why BMW went to such a monitor? Because they service the car for routine maintenance at no charge for 3 or 4 years. If you follow your own time/miles schedule on a BMW simply because "you want to," the service writer will give you a weird look and will be happy to charge you for your oil changes and other routine maintenance that you "think should be about due" when the MM says otherwise. > > His LOCAL DEALER has some guidelines. And those guidelines are aimed at > > putting money into the local dealer's pocket. > > Your position of that matter is quite clear. It's not just my position. > Those aren't "general guidelines". Those are SPECIFIC guidelines. Okay...so I should have said "I GUARANTEE you Honda has some specific guidelines, the same ones they used to build the algorithm you refer to for the MM." > Since Honda engineers now have a computer which can store quite a bit of > data and algorithms, That made me chuckle. > and can access quite a bit of data about the engine > and its operating conditions, they can program SPECIFIC rules about oil > wear. I understand, completely, and always have on this point. Please get it thru your head that I understand this point. And again, get it thru your thick a.s head that I am *glad* I have it in my car. Read that again. I am *not* saying that its not a good thing, nor am I saying in any way, shape, or form that I don't want it in my car. MM=good. X ( good thing ) + Y ( I like it ) = Z ( its all good to me ) Now please type a reply that says you understand this point. > Honda's guidelines are, follow our program that's in the computer. > That's all. That's it. That's all that's needed. I understand, and again, always have on this point. There is no need to restate this ever again to me, because I understood it the first time you said it. You are so fascinated with this point that you refuse completely to understand that someone else has a desire or wish for something, regardless of your judgement of its worth. As adults, we have that right, and you tread on it everytime you negate someone's request or desire for info. Not only that, you insult folks who look for information, and folks who are doing so to *maintain* and *take care* of their Honda, which is a GOOD thing. Or do you disagree with that too? Yeah....MM should save us money...no doubt....and there are folks who may still think that they need to change oil more frequently. Sure, it may be wrong, and erroneous thinking. What's the point here? THAT YOU DON'T HAVE THE DAMN RIGHT TO INSULT PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND. Read that again, about three or four times untill you UNDERSTAND it, Elmo. I, for one, want simply one thing, son...and you are NEVER gonna say a word to convince me otherwise. I want to know what Honda's specific or general or any other kind of guidelines that they base their MM on. Its that simple. You may think its stupid, and I don't give a good goddamn if you do. I want to know what it is, regardless. I will follow the MM because I have no choice, and appreciate it ( the MM ) keeping track of the schedule for me. But I still want to know what it is. > And they're saying, "you can't possibly evaluate, on your own, the same > information we're evaluating for you". So, no time/miles general > guidelines. See above. > Only the dealer has such a set of general guidelines, and only because > it makes money for the dealer. You don't know that with 100% certainty, especially if the guidelines are based on previous Honda recommendations. You understand that, right? Or no..still doesn't matter because you have to be right? > Do you know one reason why BMW went to such a monitor? Because they > service the car for routine maintenance at no charge for 3 or 4 years. That is not the only reason, and your totalitarian world can't accept the fact that it is perhaps a superior system for determinining oil change requirements. > If you follow your own time/miles schedule Who said anything about one's own time/miles schedule? > on a BMW simply because "you > want to," the service writer will give you a weird look and will be > happy to charge you for your oil changes and other routine maintenance > that you "think should be about due" when the MM says otherwise. Duh. >> > His LOCAL DEALER has some guidelines. And those guidelines are aimed >> > at [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > It's not just my position. I understand, as I have from the start. Polfus > > Since Honda engineers now have a computer which can store quite a bit of > > data and algorithms, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Please get it thru your head that I understand this point. You certainly don't demonstrate that. "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote >> I understand, completely, and always have on this point. >> >> Please get it thru your head that I understand this point. > > You certainly don't demonstrate that. You're wrong, and that's all that matters. Polfus > > You certainly don't demonstrate that. > > You're wrong, and that's all that matters. You're showing yourself for who you are, and that's all that matters. "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote >> > You certainly don't demonstrate that. >> >> You're wrong, and that's all that matters. > > You're showing yourself for who you are, and that's all that matters. Only to folks like you, who are raging trolls. Polfus > > You're showing yourself for who you are, and that's all that matters. > > Only to folks like you, who are raging trolls. So, you think your posts are showing themselves only to me and not to the rest of the world? > You are so fascinated with this point that you refuse completely to > understand that someone else has a desire or wish for something, regardless [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > doing so to *maintain* and *take care* of their Honda, which is a GOOD > thing. "I want to take care of my Honda. What is the published schedule? There is none? Really? Why not? Surely there is one. Oh, my dealer has one. I need a published schedule of time/miles!" Honda doesn't publish a maintenance schedule. Get that through your thick skull. There is no single maintenance schedule that covers every driver. Get that through your thick skull. People want a published schedule because they don't trust the MM. Why they don't trust a detailed schedule personalized to their driving habits, I don't know. But that's what I'm responding to. YOU keep wanting a Honda-generated published schedule. There isn't one, and you refuse to acknowledge that fact. > Yeah....MM should save us money...no doubt....and there are folks who may > still think that they need to change oil more frequently. > > Sure, it may be wrong, and erroneous thinking. So if you want to do it more frequently, then do it more frequently. Why the hangup on "I want to see a Honda time/miles schedule!"? Either create your own, or follow the MM. Take your pick. Makes no never mind. But don't expect Honda to publish a time/miles schedule, not with the MM in place. Why would you think Honda would publish such a schedule after having spent the effort on the MM? Any such schedule coming from Honda would tell people that "hey, even Honda doesn't trust this thing". Not gonna happen. The manufacturer's recommendations are the manufacturer's recommendations. They don't publish two competing and mutually exclusive recommendations. > What's the point here? > > THAT YOU DON'T HAVE THE DAMN RIGHT TO INSULT PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY DON'T > UNDERSTAND. Who's insulting whom? If you choose to infer an insult, that's YOUR problem. Not mine. Grow up. > I, for one, want simply one thing, son...and you are NEVER gonna say a word > to convince me otherwise. > > I want to know what Honda's specific or general or any other kind of > guidelines that they base their MM on. That's fine--but you are never gonna get it. See above. > You may think its stupid, and I don't give a good goddamn if you do. I don't have to think anything. Your behavior spells out everything. > > Only the dealer has such a set of general guidelines, and only because > > it makes money for the dealer. > > You don't know that with 100% certainty, especially if the guidelines are > based on previous Honda recommendations. I know that for 100% certainty, yes. As does anyone else who's spent any time in the business world, who has paid attention. > > Do you know one reason why BMW went to such a monitor? Because they > > service the car for routine maintenance at no charge for 3 or 4 years. > > That is not the only reason, and your totalitarian world can't accept the > fact that it is perhaps a superior system for determinining oil change > requirements. BMW is in business to add value for their shareholders. They don't do something simply because it's superior; it has to make financial sense. They chose to offer 4 years of routine maintenance as a marketing tool; the hand behind their back said, "make sure those owners don't come in more than a couple times during those four years, so we don't lose money". Hence BMW's own "routine maintenance" recommendations. BMW didn't choose to lose money for its shareholders simply because "it's superior". You really need to grow up and get out in the real world. > "I want to take care of my Honda. What is the published schedule? > There is none? Really? Why not? Surely there is one. Oh, my dealer > has one. I need a published schedule of time/miles!" Hey..I never asked for the damn thing. I haven't called anyone, nor am I trying to find such a schedule. I said repeatedly that I shall follow the MM. All I said was it sure would be nice if Honda could throw something into the manual to outline the schedule, even if it means saying its not accurate and the MM is the ultimate guide to the car's maintenance. I don't need the auto gear-shift timings either, but I would love to see them. I don't need the reason they chose P225/50 R17 93Vs for my '08 Accord, but I sure would love to see it. Don't you get it, dude? > Honda doesn't publish a maintenance schedule. Get that through your > thick skull. No sh.t! Thank you for stating the completely obvious! You're a real piece of work, dude. > There is no single maintenance schedule that covers every > driver. Get that through your thick skull. That may explain why I said "in general". > People want a published schedule because they don't trust the MM. Or because they wonder what would happen if the MM failed, and they had no cash to get it fixed. Or they want to know how to plan for upccoming maintenance expense costs, so they may plan their budget Accordingly ( pun intended ). Or in case the MM turns out ot be wrong, perhaps proven later in a statement by Honda. Or they may enjoy simply checking the schedule against the MM's accuracy, as car enthusiasts. There's four reasons you didn't even think of, and none of them has to do with not trusting the MM. Not everything is so black and white, Elmo. The sooner you realize that the less grief you will have. But I ain't counting on it. > Why > they don't trust a detailed schedule personalized to their driving > habits, I don't know. But that's what I'm responding to. I never said once that I didn't trust it. You understand that, or not? > YOU keep wanting a Honda-generated published schedule. There isn't one, > and you refuse to acknowledge that fact. You're crazy....I have been saying I wish there was one, because there obviously IS NOT one. Your logic is faulty, buddy. > So if you want to do it more frequently, then do it more frequently. > Why the hangup on "I want to see a Honda time/miles schedule!"? Because it would be interesting, not to mention nice to have as a back-up, just in case the MM fails or turns out ot have been programmed wrong. You know that Toyota ( they have pretty good engineers too ) just cut back their recommendations for oil changes to 5000 miles. It used to be 7500 miles. Think a car company can't change its mind, or recommendations at a later point? Why is Toyota lessening the interval? I think that should make anyone wonder what's going on with motor oils these days... No hang up though...I never started a thread stating that I wish I had the damn thing. All I said is that it would be nice. Its that simple. > Either create your own, or follow the MM. Take your pick. Makes no > never mind. But don't expect Honda to publish a time/miles schedule, > not with the MM in place. Why would you think Honda would publish such > a schedule after having spent the effort on the MM? Marketing wise, thats a really good question, and I have to say you got me there. > BMW is in business to add value for their shareholders. They don't do > something simply because it's superior; it has to make financial sense. > They chose to offer 4 years of routine maintenance as a marketing tool; > the hand behind their back said, "make sure those owners don't come in > more than a couple times during those four years, so we don't lose > money". Hence BMW's own "routine maintenance" recommendations. I didn't say anything about BMW...why the repeated hangup there? What I DID mention was Mercedes. They got it wrong, and so thats another reason why I would have liked some kind of schedule to see what Honda is thinking. Mercedes has good engineers too, right? You think maybe as good as Honda? READ THIS, don't ignore it: http://www.lubereport.com/e_article000146166.cfm April 26, 2003 Conventional Oil Costs Carmaker $32 Million By Tim Sullivan American owners of Mercedes-Benz cars were awarded a $32 million settlement this month on a complaint that their engines may have sustained early wear because they were not advised to use synthetic motor oil. The class action settlement, approved April 9 by a U.S. District Court judge in Philadelphia, calls for Mercedes-Benz USA to mail vouchers for a free oil change to more than 350,000 owners and lessees of cars from the 1998 through 2001 model years. In addition, the company commits to cover repairs estimated to cost $20 million. The case involved a Flexible Service System (FSS), included on nearly all Mercedes-Benz cars sold in the United States from 1998 to 2001. The system is designed to help owners lower maintenance costs and to reduce environmental impacts of used motor oil by advising owners when the oil truly needs to be changed. According to Mercedes-Benz, the system begins with a minimum interval of 10,000 miles and adjusts upward as it detects favorable conditions, such as extended highway travel. Documentation brought forth during the case indicated that intervals ranged up to 20,000 miles, with the average being 12,000 miles. The problem, according to the plaintiffs, was that owners manuals and promotional materials advised motorists to use conventional motor oils. ****"The company's intentions - to save its customers money and to protect the environment - are certainly commendable," attorney Kenneth Jacobsen told Lube Report. "But it didn't work because conventional oils just don't stand up to those intervals."**** ****Mercedes-Benz mailed a letter to owners in 2001 advising them to use synthetic motor oils. Ironically, it was that letter that eventually led the original plaintiff, Joseph A. O'Keefe, to file suit.**** *****"A system that monitors oil condition and the amount of highway driving can often prescribe much longer change intervals," Heiler said. The FSS does not directly monitor oil condition.******* The vouchers to be mailed by Mercedes-Benz will pay for installation of synthetic oils. With their face value of $35, that part of the settlement has a price tag of $12.3 million. Judge Franklin S. Van Antwerpen arrived at $20 million for potential repairs based on expert testimony. His decision approving the settlement cited allegations that several thousand owners had reported problems by the time O'Keefe filed his suit. > You rea (snip) Oh shut up already. Here's another you should READ: http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/article_printer_friendly.asp?articleid=562 Polfus > All I said was it sure would be nice if Honda could throw something into the > manual to outline the schedule, even if it means saying its not accurate and > the MM is the ultimate guide to the car's maintenance. Have you READ the manual? > > People want a published schedule because they don't trust the MM. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > There's four reasons you didn't even think of, and none of them has to do > with not trusting the MM. I can think of all kinds of extremes, but I don't live my life that way. > > So if you want to do it more frequently, then do it more frequently. > > Why the hangup on "I want to see a Honda time/miles schedule!"? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Think a car company can't change its mind, or recommendations at a later > point? Think they can't re-program the freaking computer? >> > So if you want to do it more frequently, then do it more frequently. >> > Why the hangup on "I want to see a Honda time/miles schedule!"? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Think they can't re-program the freaking computer? I'm just going to wait for the oil life to get to 15% and then bring it for an oil change and do the tire rotation at 10,000 miles. etc etc. Its a leased car anyway, theres no reason to go over board with the service. |
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