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Car Forum / Honda Cars / February 20082008 Honda Civic Ex Maintenance Schedule
Hi, I recently bought a new 2008 Honda Civic Sedan EX after my older model (2005) was totalled during a car accident. I'm still getting used to the new car but so far so good. One big big change with the new car is what appears to be the absence of a maintenance schedule. I'm used to going to the service at 5000 miles intervals and following the owner's manual as to when to service my car. Now with all the new features in the 2008 model like maintenance reminders etc, and the absence of a schedule maintenance in the owner's manual, is there no point to following your standard 5000 miles scheduled maintenance to, say, get your oil change etc or your typical 10,000-interval mile service to a shop (like tire rotation, brake fluid check, etc)? In article <74b09b16-d360-44d8-b5b7-8cdaf51ac8f0@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > Hi, I recently bought a new 2008 Honda Civic Sedan EX after my older > model (2005) was totalled during a car accident. I'm still getting > used to the new car but so far so good. One big big change with the > new car is what appears to be the absence of a maintenance schedule. No, there's a maintenance schedule. Read your owner's manual. > Now with all the new > features in the 2008 model like maintenance reminders etc, and the > absence of a schedule maintenance in the owner's manual, is there no > point to following your standard 5000 miles scheduled maintenance to, > say, get your oil change etc or your typical 10,000-interval mile > service to a shop (like tire rotation, brake fluid check, etc)? Read your owner's manual. It spells things out quite clearly. > In article > <74b09b16-d360-44d8-b5b7-8cdaf51ac...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > No, there's a maintenance schedule. Read your owner's manual. The only "schedule" I see in my manual is the one mentioned in pages 228-229 of the 2008 Hondai Civic Sedan, but this is exactly what I"m talking about, its not a "schedule" like you said but more of a "minder" which I posted originally. In my old 2005 manual, it spells it out such that at every 5000 mi, you change the oil, at 10000 mi you change oil + other stuff, at 30000 mi interval you do major service etc (located at the middle of the page). What "manual" are you talking about? > > Now with all the new > > features in the 2008 model like maintenance reminders etc, and the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Read your owner's manual. It spells things out quite clearly. See my reply above. Show me what page where "it spells things out quite clearly". For example, I've always replaced my engine oil at every 5000 mi, but the 2008 civic you basically have to rely on the reminder whether your oil is 15% or 10% etc. It doesn't say in the manual the recommended time to replace the oil (i.e. every 6 months or every 5000 mi). What happens if the dealer forgets to reset the reminder or, worse, malfunctions? > but the 2008 civic you basically have to rely on the reminder whether your oil is 15% or 10% etc. It doesn't say in the manual the recommended time to replace the oil (i.e. every 6 months or every 5000 mi). What happens if the dealer forgets to reset the reminder or, worse, malfunctions? That's where your brain comes in. If that doesn't work, visit the dealer, to whom you gave many thousands of dollars, and ask how this new "system" works. > That's where your brain comes in. If that doesn't work, visit the dealer, to > whom you gave many thousands of dollars, and ask how this new "system" > works. WTF? What's your problem? Are you the sorry son of a Honda dealer/ salesman that one little critique of the maintenance schedule got your little feathers all ruffled? I know how this thing works, and that wasn't my original question from this post. Maybe YOU should check your brain (or what's left of it) and start reading the thread from the beginning. In article <ed029d0e-1e8d-47d3-bbcc-ac5fb0f30958@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > > That's where your brain comes in. If that doesn't work, visit the dealer, to > > whom you gave many thousands of dollars, and ask how this new "system" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > salesman that one little critique of the maintenance schedule got your > little feathers all ruffled? You manufactured a circumstance that (a) wouldn't happen, or (b) is easily rectified if it did happen by mistake--and used that as "this is why I need a time/miles maintenance schedule!" Quit manufacturing things to be worried about. Sheesh. You're like an old woman. > In article > <ed029d0e-1e8d-47d3-bbcc-ac5fb0f30958@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Quit manufacturing things to be worried about. Sheesh. You're like an > old woman. My Honda dealer routinely forgets to reset the maintenence reminder. "Art" <begunaNOSPAMPLEASE@mindspring.com> wrote > My Honda dealer routinely forgets to reset the maintenence reminder. That sucks...it doesn't inspire confidence in the dealer, IMHO. Peace, Polfus >> In article >> <74b09b16-d360-44d8-b5b7-8cdaf51ac...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > every 5000 mi). What happens if the dealer forgets to reset the > reminder or, worse, malfunctions? how hard is this concept? do you fill the gas tank every 300 miles or when the gauge shows you should? same principle applies with the the maint sched reminder! and if they "forget" reset it, not only will you not be paying them, you'll see the percentage stay the same and you'll be calling the dealer to have them sort it out. if it malfunctions, since it's integrated with your engine management computer, the car will be dead and you'll be calling the dealer for warranty repair. > >> In article > >> <74b09b16-d360-44d8-b5b7-8cdaf51ac...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Dude would you f***ing relax? I just asked if there is a schedule in the new civics such as those in the older models. I in no way did I say the new features are bad. It was a new thing that caught me by surprise, in a good way. If there's no schedule in the manual, then fine! Can anyone get a simple "yes" or "no" answer here anymore? Check your owner's manual under the section that says maintenance minder. It will tell you what each letter and number corresponds to what service you need to perform on the car at that time. >> >> In article >> >> <74b09b16-d360-44d8-b5b7-8cdaf51ac...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >surprise, in a good way. If there's no schedule in the manual, then >fine! Can anyone get a simple "yes" or "no" answer here anymore? In article <4275fa64-c8a5-4c14-b68d-c2cc7181849b@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > > how hard is this concept? Â do you fill the gas tank every 300 miles or > > when the gauge shows you should? Â same principle applies with the the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Dude would you f***ing relax? I just asked if there is a schedule in > the new civics such as those in the older models. His question is valid: how hard is this concept? You're resisting it very, very much. You want a crude time/mileage table. I suppose you also avoid modern vaccines, and you drink unpasteurized milk. Well, how's this: fill your gas tank every 200 miles or 5 days, whichever comes first. Don't use that gas gauge that gives you ACTUAL information about the fill status of the gas tank. That's just stupid. In article <4275fa64-c8a5-4c14-b68d-c2cc7181849b@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > I just asked if there is a schedule in > the new civics such as those in the older models. I in no way did I > say the new features are bad. It was a new thing that caught me by > surprise, in a good way. If there's no schedule in the manual, then > fine! Can anyone get a simple "yes" or "no" answer here anymore? No. > In article > <4275fa64-c8a5-4c14-b68d-c2cc71818...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > No. Great! That's all I'm looking for. No need to get offended just because someone made a comment to your Honday gods >>>> In article >>>> <74b09b16-d360-44d8-b5b7-8cdaf51ac...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > surprise, in a good way. If there's no schedule in the manual, then > fine! Can anyone get a simple "yes" or "no" answer here anymore? have you noticed how people here don't like answering dumb questions? you want to pay me, i'll give you any answer you want. if you don't want to pay me, you got to interest me - and bleating about what you're getting for free just doesn't do that. > have you noticed how people here don't like answering dumb questions? > you want to pay me, i'll give you any answer you want. if you don't > want to pay me, you got to interest me - and bleating about what you're > getting for free just doesn't do that.- Hide quoted text - Thanks but I finally got my answer. Unfortunately it took 14+ threads to sift through. Some people here seriously have issues if one comment that may sound "bad" is made to their Honda gods. > > See my reply above. Show me what page where "it spells things out > > quite clearly". For example, I've always replaced my engine oil at [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > when the gauge shows you should? same principle applies with the the > maint sched reminder! Good one. Let's see him respond to THAT. In article <5220f417-717a-4ce3-b67e-61607098bd18@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > > No, there's a maintenance schedule. Read your owner's manual. > > The only "schedule" I see in my manual is the one mentioned in pages > 228-229 of the 2008 Hondai Civic Sedan, but this is exactly what I"m > talking about, its not a "schedule" like you said but more of a > "minder" The "minder" is the result of the engine computer, which is keeping very close track of EXACTLY how you drive the car and what wear you put on it. The schedule is inside the computer, and the computer tells you when your driving habits warrant a given service. How is that so difficult to understand or accept? It's much more precise than "well, it's been about 6 months since I've seen ol' Goober down at the fillin' station, so it must be time." > In my old 2005 manual, it spells > it out such that at every 5000 mi, you change the oil, at 10000 mi you > change oil + other stuff, at 30000 mi interval you do major service > etc (located at the middle of the page). And years ago we used buy and play vinyl records. Do you go to the Apple Store, pick up an iPod, and ask the guy, "Where's the stylus? Where do I put the record on?"? > What "manual" are you > talking about? The same manual you're reading. Follow it. Why the resistance to following it? > > Read your owner's manual. It spells things out quite clearly. > > See my reply above. Show me what page where "it spells things out > quite clearly". Pages 228-229. Why the resistance to following the schedule that Honda's engineers have spelled out? The fact that they've spelled it out only in the computer, which is able to take into account every little aspect of how you drive the car and therefore know exactly how much wear their components and lubricants have received? The old "do it every X months or Y thousand miles" was there as a best guesstimate, because the technology wasn't built into the car to record every cold start, every RPM load, and so on. But now that it is there, we don't go by simple time or miles--we go by much more precise measurements. And those measurements are understood by the engineers who built the car, and the results of the measurements are well understood by the engineers who built the car. Why the resistance to following it? > The "minder" is the result of the engine computer, which is keeping very > close track of EXACTLY how you drive the car and what wear you put on it. > > The schedule is inside the computer, and the computer tells you when > your driving habits warrant a given service. Wow little Elmo, that REALLY "spells" it out in the manual! > How is that so difficult to understand or accept? It's much more > precise than "well, it's been about 6 months since I've seen ol' Goober > down at the fillin' station, so it must be time." Who said I'm not accepting this or having difficulty to understand? I essentially just asked if the new models have a "strict" recommended schedule to adhere to, like in older models. If not, then fine. Actually, its good that it doesn't. I just wanted to know if this "minder" is sufficient enough to keep the maintenance on check. > > In my old 2005 manual, it spells > > it out such that at every 5000 mi, you change the oil, at 10000 mi you [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Apple Store, pick up an iPod, and ask the guy, "Where's the stylus? > Where do I put the record on?"? I guess you're THAT old to remember vinyl records? And you call yourself "Elmo"? > > What "manual" are you > > talking about? > > The same manual you're reading. Follow it. > > Why the resistance to following it? Who said I'm not gonna follow it? Can't you read my original question? A simple "yes" or "no" is all I'm looking for. Geez, did I just offend your Honda religion or something? > > > Read your owner's manual. It spells things out quite clearly. > > > See my reply above. Show me what page where "it spells things out > > quite clearly". Yeah, you spelled it out quite "clearly" alright ("oh oh, the schedule is in the computer...") > Pages 228-229. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the car and therefore know exactly how much wear their components and > lubricants have received? That's good! I like that they did that! And I never said I was resisting. All I asked if it matters to adhere to a schedule anymore. If the "minder" is all that requires, then great! > The old "do it every X months or Y thousand miles" was there as a best > guesstimate, because the technology wasn't built into the car to record [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Why the resistance to following it? Seriously dude, someone should grab you by the tummy so you can start giggling like those tickle-me dolls from years back. Or is that too recent for you that all you remember in your hay days are vinyl records? In article <c1287b84-cfe2-4316-836e-f5f36ed79ae5@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > > The "minder" is the result of the engine computer, which is keeping very > > close track of EXACTLY how you drive the car and what wear you put on it. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Wow little Elmo, that REALLY "spells" it out in the manual! The manual couldn't be clearer--follow the maintenance minder. You're manufacturing things out of thin air here. You don't WANT to follow the minder, for some reason unknown to anyone. > Who said I'm not accepting this or having difficulty to understand? I > essentially just asked if the new models have a "strict" recommended > schedule to adhere to, like in older models. If not, then fine. So you read the owner's manual, which spells everything out. You chose not to believe the manufacturer, choosing instead to come to the Usenet and ask random strangers--most of whom would be highly entertained by sending you on a snipe hunt. Yeah, THAT'S a good choice. Instead of sending you on a snipe hunt, we give you actual information--and we're watching you refuse the actual information (which correlates with what the manufacturer says, interestingly enough) and instead defend your original choice of refusing to believe the manufacturer. Equally entertaining, in the end. > > And years ago we used buy and play vinyl records. Do you go to the > > Apple Store, pick up an iPod, and ask the guy, "Where's the stylus? > > Where do I put the record on?"? > > I guess you're THAT old to remember vinyl records? And you call > yourself "Elmo"? You can still buy vinyl records, but you have to search them out. Not sure why my choice of monicker is involved in that particular discussion. > > > What "manual" are you > > > talking about? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Who said I'm not gonna follow it? You did. > And I never said I was > resisting. All I asked if it matters to adhere to a schedule > anymore. So you read the owner's manual, which spells everything out. You chose not to believe the manufacturer, choosing instead to come to the Usenet and ask random strangers--most of whom would be highly entertained by sending you on a snipe hunt. > > Why the resistance to following it? > > Seriously dude, someone should grab you by the tummy so you can start > giggling like those tickle-me dolls from years back. Or is that too > recent for you that all you remember in your hay days are vinyl > records? Nice try at trying to avoid the question. Why didn't you answer it? As for "hay days," that would be feeding time at the horse stable. Maybe you were trying to talk about a heyday? English. It's a great language. Use it. > As for "hay days," that would be feeding time at the horse stable. > Maybe you were trying to talk about a heyday? > > English. It's a great language. Use it. Ding ding ding! NIce. You're not that stupid after all..... >> Why the resistance to following it? > Who said I'm not gonna follow it? Can't you read my original question? A simple "yes" or "no" is all I'm looking for. Geez, did I just offend your Honda religion or something? Your original post included wondering a) what happens if the "minder" malfunctions, and b) what happens if the dealer forgets to reset it. (It was to those that I responded.) Those are not "yes or no" questions. So in the future, be clear with your communication, and we'll respond accordingly. There are a lot of bright, knowledgeable people here who really do go out of their way to help... and respond accordingly. Seriously, I hope you enjoy your new car. This has been a very entertaining thread; thank you all! > >> Why the resistance to following it? > > Who said I'm not gonna follow it? Can't you read my original [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > This has been a very entertaining thread; thank you all! Dude, are you and Elmo eating the same food for dinner? Here's my original question from the very first post of this thread: "Now with all the new features in the 2008 model like maintenance reminders etc, and the absence of a schedule maintenance in the owner's manual, is there no point to following your standard 5000 miles scheduled maintenance to, say, get your oil change etc or your typical 10,000-interval mile service to a shop (like tire rotation, brake fluid check, etc)? " Maybe you should stick to reading those astronomy books and learning about hummingbird behaviors, or try using your own brain for a chance before you suggest others to do the same. >>>> Why the resistance to following it? >>> Who said I'm not gonna follow it? �Can't you read my original [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > about hummingbird behaviors, or try using your own brain for a chance > before you suggest others to do the same. lets get this straight - you show up out of the blue, you ask badly constructed and poorly considered questions, then get all pissed because the people you're asking really can't be bothered with your sh.t, but it's all their fault??? dude, knowing how to read the owners manual is the least of your problems. > lets get this straight - you show up out of the blue, you ask badly > constructed and poorly considered questions, then get all pissed because > the people you're asking really can't be bothered with your sh.t, but > it's all their fault??? dude, knowing how to read the owners manual is > the least of your problems.- Hide quoted text - Okay, I guess we can put you in the same horse stable as Elmo and Howard. I think someone needs to replace the hay you guys have been eating. Read my original question again. If you people don't want to be bothered with my question, then don't respond at all, instead of saying some smartass response like I don't know what I'm talking about. Its a simple question given the fact that I drove an older model before purchasing a new one. And if you can't follow this "badly constructed and poorly considered question", then I guess you're just as stupid for not carefully reading it before posting your response. This is a usenet group, not grammar school. >> lets get this straight - you show up out of the blue, you ask badly >> constructed and poorly considered questions, then get all pissed because [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > you're just as stupid for not carefully reading it before posting your > response. This is a usenet group, not grammar school. let's see - you've argued with not one, not two, but three people here. statistically, what is the likely common denominator in this equation? > let's see - you've argued with not one, not two, but three people here. > statistically, what is the likely common denominator in this equation?- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Three stupid people eating hay in a horse stable On Feb 2, 10:35 pm, rcpesi...@gmail.com wrote: > > let's see - you've argued with not one, not two, but three people here. > > statistically, what is the likely common denominator in this equation?- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > Three stupid people eating hay in a horse stable Now who the heck are you? If I were you I wouldn't get involved.... > let's see - you've argued with not one, not two, but three people here. > statistically, what is the likely common denominator in this equation?- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Hahaha, someone posted a response to this question that is worthy of repeating, but I think he/she knows better about getting involved since he/she deleted their post. > > let's see - you've argued with not one, not two, but three people here. > > statistically, what is the likely common denominator in this equation?- Hide quoted text - [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > repeating, but I think he/she knows better about getting involved > since he/she deleted their post. Eh! What the heck, I'll say what his/her response was: Q: let's see - you've argued with not one, not two, but three people here. > > statistically, what is the likely common denominator in this equation? A: Three stupid people eating hay in a horse stable Hahahaha! >>> lets get this straight - you show up out of the blue, you ask badly >>> constructed and poorly considered questions, then get all pissed because [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > let's see - you've argued with not one, not two, but three people here. > statistically, what is the likely common denominator in this equation? That he met three a.sholes in a row. Polfus Avalon1178 <Avalon1178@gmail.com> wrote in news:b025dbf2-18da-4cca-a86b- a02a12e96783@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com: >> lets get this straight - you show up out of the blue, you ask badly >> constructed and poorly considered questions, then get all pissed because [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > you're just as stupid for not carefully reading it before posting your > response. This is a usenet group, not grammar school. Your answer was given in the very first reply to your original message. Elmo directed you to consult your Owner's Manual, which covers Maintenance on pages 307 through 313. Page 310 has a diagram of the Maintenance Minder readout in the instrument cluster, along with some description of how it works. Among the descriptions is this snippet: "All maintenance items displayed on the information display are in code. For an explanation of these maintenance codes, see page 313." It's a bit unfair to fail to perform a basic requirement of new-car ownership, then get mad at people who advise you to do it.  SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > lets get this straight - you show up out of the blue, you ask badly > constructed and poorly considered questions, then get all pissed because > the people you're asking really can't be bothered with your sh.t, but it's > all their fault??? dude, knowing how to read the owners manual is the > least of your problems. You are a gigantic pussy. Bottom line: your life sucks so bad you need this newsgroup to make youself feel better. Reality: dude asked a question, and you flew in with your usual sh.t. If you were a human being, you would have helped. But you hate yourself, so you project it onto others instead by insulting them. Its clear to everyone except those that are just like you, like your little buddy Elmo, which obviously is your email partner in these postings. Tell me I'm wrong..that you haven't sent each other emails saying how much you hate when people do this or that and how you both are gonna let folks really have it when they piss you off. Tell me I'm wrong...that'll make you a liar also. Polfus >> lets get this straight - you show up out of the blue, you ask badly >> constructed and poorly considered questions, then get all pissed [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Tell me I'm wrong...that'll make you a liar also. how old are you? >>> lets get this straight - you show up out of the blue, you ask badly >>> constructed and poorly considered questions, then get all pissed because [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > how old are you? Looks like I'm not wrong, then. Polfus >>>> lets get this straight - you show up out of the blue, you ask badly >>>> constructed and poorly considered questions, then get all pissed [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Polfus your contributions are inane and childish. they lack any honda-related merit. and you get fixated on schoolyard snot-smearing. how old are you? > your contributions are inane and childish. they lack any honda-related > merit. and you get fixated on schoolyard snot-smearing. how old are you? Nice Honda-related content. > The "minder" is the result of the engine computer, which is keeping very > close track of EXACTLY how you drive the car and what wear you put on it. > > The schedule is inside the computer, and the computer tells you when > your driving habits warrant a given service. > Why the resistance to following the schedule that Honda's engineers have > spelled out? The fact that they've spelled it out only in the computer, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > car, and the results of the measurements are well understood by the > engineers who built the car. Then why can all that be screwed up if one forgets to reset the Maintenance Minder? Think about it. If you rest it early, then Honda admits that the schedule will be off. That means, therefore, that all it is is a simple computer that remembers the milage when it was reset. That's it. And the manual says quite clearly, "If the message "Service" does not appear more than 12 months after the display is reset, change the engine oil every year." What if I then drive 35,000 miles in one year? What then, smart-a.s...don't change the oil because the Maintenance Minder computer says no need? Polfus > Then why can all that be screwed up if one forgets to > reset the Maintenance Minder? > If you rest it early, then Honda admits that the schedule > will be off. Correct. The Maintenance Minder does not completely absolve the owner of responsibility when it comes to maintenance. > And the manual says quite clearly, "If the message > "Service" does not appear more than 12 months after the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > What then, smart-a.s...don't change the oil because the > Maintenance Minder computer says no need? The MM computer does take into account distance driven. Can the computer fail? Yes, but so can a lot of other parts. The owner has to stay alert to trouble codes and symptoms. My sense is the MM may very well save the owner money by reducing unnecessary oil and other part and fluid changes. See post to Avalon for some elaboration. These all are often-raised concerns at other internet fora. Like all new technology, it's going to take a while for the MM to be accepted. Or it may be rejected. I'd say the jury's out. If forced to bet, I'd bet the MM is useful for at least oil changes, with the caveat that I'd like more input on why there is no distinction made between synthetic and non-synthetic oil, per both Honda's old maintenance schedules and the new MM. >> Then why can all that be screwed up if one forgets to reset the >> Maintenance Minder? > >> If you rest it early, then Honda admits that the schedule will be off. > Correct. The Maintenance Minder does not completely absolve the owner of > responsibility when it comes to maintenance. That's it exactly..which is why I feel that questions about the Maintenance Minder's actual schedule are valid. You know...all I need would be for Honda to just simply gimme a general recommendation or two regarding the engine oil. It is not difficult for a "Honda recommends changing engine oil every 5,000 miles or 7,000 miles or whatever. Because for Honda to dismiss the thing's worth with "...change the engine oil every year" must still be a recommendation that they are comfortable with. Because they are saying that if you don't use the MM, then change the oil every year. That amazes me to no end...what the hell is the point of being so critical with the MM when Honda basically says their car will bne fine if you just change the oil once a year. Do you follow what I'm saying? > The MM computer does take into account distance driven. I believe that's most likely the main thought in its electronic brain; i.e. "..when did I last get reset?" > Can the computer fail? Yes, but so can a lot of other parts. The owner has > to stay alert to trouble codes and symptoms. No doubt...and its good to have on there regardless. > My sense is the MM may very well save the owner money by reducing > unnecessary oil and other part and fluid changes. See post to Avalon for > some elaboration. Agreed. I also believe its because a whole mess of folks can't remember when they last changed their oil, so its a reminder. Just that simple, IMHO. > These all are often-raised concerns at other internet fora. Like all new > technology, it's going to take a while for the MM to be accepted. Or it > may be rejected. I'd say the jury's out. Well said. I believe it will remain in one form or another. I also believe the main thing is that folks like me and the Avalon fella is that we cannot accept a car company telling us "just shut the hell up and do what the computer says". If the computer fails, like H.A.L., then we need back up and info on how to fix or maintain the dang thing. So all Honda has to do is explain it more with backup info for their general plan for oil changes and filter changes in case Ye Olde MM fails...if they did that, I don't think we'd be having this conversation right now. >If forced to bet, I'd bet the MM is useful for at least oil changes, with >the caveat that I'd like more input on why there is no distinction made >between synthetic and non-synthetic oil, per both Honda's old maintenance >schedules and the new MM. Well..you want my guess? Here goes in case you said yes: I think its because- 1) They don't use an actual sensor to "taste" the oil..there's no chemical analysis machine in the car anywhere. So they have no way of knowing exactly what the state of the oil and filter actually are. And the MM sure as heck doesn't do anything other than remember last reset and supposedly factors like starts and acceleration, etc...which I really have a hard time believing is that effective if at all. 2) So, since they don't use any such sensor to test the oil, there needs to be no distinction between the two types of oils. 3) When you use a synthetic oil, Honda states at that point that we should follow the new recommendations of the synthetic oil manufacturer; i.e. Mobil 1's guidelines. 4) Since we gotta use the new guidelines, there's no need for anything other than Honda's recommendation with regular oil. 5) Possibly there is some extreme conspiracy whereas there's so much money to be made on oil, that no one wants us to know that synthetic oil is better. It seems that every one that offers a synthetic oil also offers a regular. Why should a company cut its main profit off by spilling the beans completely? 6) Never underestimates the power of greed and money, and refer back to #5. Peace, Polfus > > Correct. The Maintenance Minder does not completely absolve the owner of > > responsibility when it comes to maintenance. > > That's it exactly..which is why I feel that questions about the Maintenance > Minder's actual schedule are valid. But since those questions are answered explicitly in the owner's manual, asking them here is not valid. >> > Correct. The Maintenance Minder does not completely absolve the owner >> > of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > But since those questions are answered explicitly in the owner's manual, > asking them here is not valid. No, they most certainly are not answered explicitly in the owner's manual. But you tell me specifically where it answers these two simple questions..I have my manual in hand and await your scary knowledge: 1) What mileage or interval does Honda recommend you change the oil at? 2) If the MM isn't reset after service, when is the next oil change actually due? Tell me where this is in the manual, for starters, and I'll send you a case of Coors. Otherwise you can kiss my lilly white (_l_). Polfus >>> > Correct. The Maintenance Minder does not completely absolve the >>> owner > of [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > 1) What mileage or interval does Honda recommend you change the oil at? at what mileage interval do you refill with gas? or do you watch the gauge and fill when empty? because that's all the maint minder is - a gauge. > 2) If the MM isn't reset after service, when is the next oil change > actually due? do you notice if you forget to fill with gas? because the gauge will show "empty" if you don't re-set. > Tell me where this is in the manual, for starters, and I'll send you a > case of Coors. > > Otherwise you can kiss my lilly white (_l_). bottom line - you're just humping virtually every post in sight, presumably because you're bored. have your parents grounded you for something? and you post unspeakable crap. "osmolarity", "chemical structure" and spectrometry for example, when you haven't the slightest idea what those things are. the gauge uses a formula built up over time. if the input [time, rpms, throttle, temp, etc.] are measured, and correlated to output by honda's engineers, the output can be measured to a very high degree of accuracy. not "trusting" it and continuing to bleat about mileage schedules is like not trusting the engine computer to inject the right amount of gas - an utterly ridiculous concept. as for synthetics, as per the algorithm, input is known. accumulated combustion product buildup rate, that this algorithm models, will be the same regardless of oil. can synthetics run longer? sure. but the engineering "safe" solution is to go on the level of combustion product accumulation, not rely on variance in oil formulation. now, you go ahead and hump this post polfus. maybe even throw in a few naughty cuss words. then go to bed and let your mommy read you a story about the big bad oil bears and how they'll eat your [daddy's] car if you don't change the oil every 3k miles. >> 1) What mileage or interval does Honda recommend you change the oil at? > > at what mileage interval do you refill with gas? or do you watch the > gauge and fill when empty? because that's all the maint minder is - a > gauge. No answer, I see. You're banter just as re-inforces that this info is most definately NOT spelled out clearly in the Owner's Manual, which you accused someone of being stupid because they asked about it. >> 2) If the MM isn't reset after service, when is the next oil change >> actually due? > > do you notice if you forget to fill with gas? because the gauge will show > "empty" if you don't re-set. Good point...but I'm just telling you what the mighty Owner's Manual states. > bottom line - you're just humping virtually every post in sight, > presumably because you're bored. have your parents grounded you for > something? You *are* Frank Burns. > and you post unspeakable crap. "osmolarity", "chemical structure" and > spectrometry for example, when you haven't the slightest idea what those > things are. You say that with such...gusto...its kinda sweet, really. > the gauge uses a formula built up over time. if the input [time, rpms, > throttle, temp, etc.] are measured, and correlated to output by honda's > engineers, the output can be measured to a very high degree of accuracy. > not "trusting" it and continuing to bleat about mileage schedules is like > not trusting the engine computer to inject the right amount of gas - an > utterly ridiculous concept. You just can't see the point no matter what you do... > as for synthetics, as per the algorithm, input is known. accumulated > combustion product buildup rate, that this algorithm models, will be the > same regardless of oil. can synthetics run longer? sure. but the > engineering "safe" solution is to go on the level of combustion product > accumulation, not rely on variance in oil formulation. Duh..and you need chemical analysis to do so...whats wrong with gas chromatography/mass spectrometry, for example? > now, you go ahead and hump this post polfus. maybe even throw in a few > naughty cuss words. then go to bed and let your mommy read you a story > about the big bad oil bears and how they'll eat your [daddy's] car if you > don't change the oil every 3k miles. Goe fugg yerselv. Seriously. Polfus > > at what mileage interval do you refill with gas? or do you watch the > > gauge and fill when empty? because that's all the maint minder is - a > > gauge. > > No answer, I see. The answer is, it's up to the driver to pay attention to the dash gauges according to the owner's manual. What's so hard about that? > <snip crap> > Duh..and you need chemical analysis to do so... no you don't - analysis is when you don't know what the input is - it's if you're flying blind. [and installing gas chromatography instruments on a car is a ridiculous concept btw.] > whats wrong with gas > chromatography/mass spectrometry, for example? with a modern car, you /know/ what the input is, so analysis would be an incredible expense for almost no practical benefit. >> <snip crap> Hey...you are a little sh.t when you want to be, no doubt. >> Duh..and you need chemical analysis to do so... > > no you don't - analysis is when you don't know what the input is - it's if > you're flying blind. You scare me sometimes..where do you come up with this stuff? You the same dude that recommended the double-blind study a while ago? > [and installing gas chromatography instruments on a car is a ridiculous > concept btw.] Hey...at least there would be no *GUESSWORK* involved in when to change your oil, you silly man. >> whats wrong with gas chromatography/mass spectrometry, for example? > with a modern car, you /know/ what the input is, so analysis would be an > incredible expense for almost no practical benefit. Well neither is a system that *GUESSES* when I should change my oil. And that, my mentally challenged friend, is the bottom line. Polfus >>> <snip crap> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > You scare me sometimes..where do you come up with this stuff? actually, i went to school and studied stuff like this. you should try it - you might learn something. > You the same dude that recommended the double-blind study a while ago? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Hey...at least there would be no *GUESSWORK* involved in when to change > your oil, you silly man. so $150k of chromatography instrumentation is a good idea for a $15k car? you have a serious reality problem. ignoring the fact that people spent millions of dollars researching the algorithms to make computer monitoring work of course. >>> whats wrong with gas chromatography/mass spectrometry, for example? > >> with a modern car, you /know/ what the input is, so analysis would be >> an incredible expense for almost no practical benefit. > > Well neither is a system that *GUESSES* when I should change my oil. it's not a guess, it's a measure, based on usage. like your gas thank gauge. > And that, my mentally challenged friend, is the bottom line. well, /one/ of us is certainly challenged. and i'm not your friend. hump #5 > > But since those questions are answered explicitly in the owner's manual, > > asking them here is not valid. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > 1) What mileage or interval does Honda recommend you change the oil at? When the MM tells you to or a year, whichever comes first. > 2) If the MM isn't reset after service, when is the next oil change actually > due? Gee, you mean it's up to the DRIVER to KNOW HIS CAR and MAINTAIN it, including watching the dash and seeing that the MM is reset? What will we DO? Honda isn't SPOON-FEEDING US ENOUGH. They're not WIPING OUR NOSES ENOUGH. >> But you tell me specifically where it answers these two simple >> questions..I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > When the MM tells you to or a year, whichever comes first. I anticipated that you would say that, but hoped you had enough brains and class not to. Looks like I was wrong. >> 2) If the MM isn't reset after service, when is the next oil change >> actually >> due? > Gee, you mean it's up to the DRIVER to KNOW HIS CAR and MAINTAIN it, Woah..wait a damn minute..you just said to forget all that and watch when the MM lights up. I am not supposed to know my car..I am just supposed to watch for the little reminder to come on. Like a blind mouse...just follow along and hope its right, because if I "KNOW HIS CAR and MAINTAIN it", then maybe I need to know what mileage Honda recommends I change the motor oil at? You know, in case the MM fails? > including watching the dash and seeing that the MM is reset? > What will we DO? Honda isn't SPOON-FEEDING US ENOUGH. They're not > WIPING OUR NOSES ENOUGH. I don't want them to wipe my nose or spoon feed me at all. I prefer they don't, in fact. Wild thing really at this point is WHY don't you care about knowing this information, and why are you 100% trusting of a computer? Polfus > >> 1) What mileage or interval does Honda recommend you change the oil at? > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Looks like I was wrong. Gee, you mean you didn't want me to say what the owner's manual says? Why not? > > Gee, you mean it's up to the DRIVER to KNOW HIS CAR and MAINTAIN it, > > Woah..wait a damn minute..you just said to forget all that and watch when > the MM lights up. That's what I was talking about. The driver has to pay attention to the dash lights. That's the driver's part of maintaining it. Moron. > I am not supposed to know my car..I am just supposed to watch for the little > reminder to come on. The computer knows your car far, far better than you do. Pay attention to the lights. And what if they're not reset? Why, you as the driver have the responsibility to see that they are reset. What you DON'T have is the responsibility to know when the oil is used up. It's not strictly a function of time. Follow the owner's manual--that is, unless you're a Honda engineer and know something that Honda isn't publishing. Are you a Honda engineer who knows something Honda isn't publishing? > Wild thing really at this point is WHY don't you care about knowing this > information, and why are you 100% trusting of a computer? What information? You're looking for a time/miles table for when to change the oil. Why are you 100% trusting in that? Is that regardless of how you drive the car under whatever conditions? > > The MM computer does take into account distance driven. > > I believe that's most likely the main thought in its electronic brain; i.e. > "..when did I last get reset?" You have no idea what weighting any indicator is given. The computer takes into account miles driven cold, cold starts, RPM above a certain point, etc. You "believe". Ain't that nice. >> > The MM computer does take into account distance driven. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You have no idea what weighting any indicator is given. Agreed. > The computer takes into account miles driven cold, cold starts, RPM above > a certain > point, etc. I understand that, yet remember that its simply an algorhythm that may increase or decrease the interval slightly is all. And ...the bottom line is the *actual degredation of the engine oil*, and there is nothing in a Honda Accord that tests the actual motor oil. Therefore, the motor oil itself is the main factor...regardless of the number of cold starts, RPMs above a certain point, etc... That would require having on-board info in a hard drive that knows the chemical structure, osmolarity, density from the light spectrometer thingy, etc., of each and every oil, which can be chosen by the driver in the dash console, and then having a sensor in the engine that could take a sample of the oil and test it right there inside the car. But that obviously ain't happening, so if the MM tells me I can go longer on my current oil before replacing, then how does it know if my oil is good enough to go longer? What if its already in a state of breakdown and full of carbon? How does it know if I changed all the pistons in my engine and now need a new "coating/break-in" period? It doesn't. Hasn't a clue in this world what to say about all that. Its just a simple little computer that remembers when you last changed the oil for you in case you forget. And if the computer tells me that I need to change my oil, but I know that I can look at the Mobil 1 and see that it is still golden colored on the dipstick, then who's right, especially if the oil manufactuurer states that the interval is longer, and when Honda agrees to follow the synthetic manufacturer's recommendations? The MM still The King? > You "believe". Ain't that nice. Listen, fruitcake...I "believe" your attempts at sarcasm are embryonic at best, so save it for your own toilet and do us both a favor. I like the MM...you need to understand that. I wish Honda gave more info....in case I, as an adult owner of a vehicle that I paid cash for, want to do whatever I want with my own car. Polfus > > The computer takes into account miles driven cold, cold starts, RPM above > > a certain [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Therefore, the motor oil itself is the main factor...regardless of the > number of cold starts, RPMs above a certain point, etc... When you start with a family sedan (not a race car, not a BMW M3--which, by the way, has an oil change indicator just like the Honda...) and specify oil that has a certain industry rating, you know quite a bit about the degradation of the oil. You DO know about the industry standards and ratings for motor oil, don't you? With those in hand, with the specifications in hand, the engineers can VERY CLOSELY determine the oil condition. In fact, the oil specifications spell it all out. All Honda has to do is factor in their engine peculiarities and go from there. You really need to know more about the outside world before you spout off. > > The computer takes into account miles driven cold, cold starts, RPM above > > a certain [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > chemical structure, osmolarity, density from the light spectrometer thingy, > etc., of each and every oil, No, it simple means specifying a minimum standard of motor oil--the specifications of which are published. What is it nowadays--API SJ? Read. It's good for you. >> That would require having on-board info in a hard drive that knows the >> chemical structure, osmolarity, density from the light spectrometer [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > No, it simple means specifying a minimum standard of motor oil--the > specifications of which are published. That helps a consumer grab a quart of oil designed to fit the performance of the engine in use. Still...that does nothing to test the actual condition of the actual motor oil once it's in the engine. > What is it nowadays--API SJ? Yes. > Read. It's good for you. The API SJ designation is a *minimum* standard that oil must meet, but there is no additional designation for outstanding or superior oils within the SJ designation. And here's something to read, even if it directly or indirectly relates to this subject: http://www.infineum.com/information/api-passenger-sj-sl-2004.html http://www.swri.org/4org/d08/GasTests/home.htm Polfus > > No, it simple means specifying a minimum standard of motor oil--the > > specifications of which are published. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Still...that does nothing to test the actual condition of the actual motor > oil once it's in the engine. Were you not reading and paying attention? If the oil starts at a well-known standard, and the engine is built to a well-known standard, and the engineers tested everything like they did, then the system is programmed to understand the known effects on the known oil of known conditions. This is FAR, FAR better than a simple miles/time chart, which the original poster wanted--for no reason other than "well, I've always done it that way". > > Read. It's good for you. > > The API SJ designation is a *minimum* standard that oil must meet, but there > is no additional designation for outstanding or superior oils within the SJ > designation. Yeah? So? Remember, this is a Honda Accord we're talking about--a family car. And Honda's engineers are clear that they recommend the same oil change intervals for space-age billion-dollar-per-quart oil as for Wal-Mart SJ. They've made their stand, and did so years ago--even when all they published was a time/miles chart. So tell me, then, why BMW pioneered this computerized oil change minding system? You'd think their requirements would be much stricter, and their owners would use much higher quality oils, right? And why did BMW do away with the dipstick? >>> That would require having on-board info in a hard drive that knows the >>> chemical structure, osmolarity, density from the light spectrometer [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Still...that does nothing to test the actual condition of the actual motor > oil once it's in the engine. Which is why I use the cheap stuff. The car and minder system is designed with the lowest common denominator in mind. So I figure spending anymore than that is not needed as I would end up changing the better (more expensive stuff) before it was "fully used up" thus wasting the extra money I spent on it. >> Still...that does nothing to test the actual condition of the actual >> motor oil once it's in the engine. > > Which is why I use the cheap stuff. The car and minder system is designed > with the lowest common denominator in mind. Now you're talking, Seth. > So I figure spending anymore than that is not needed as I would end up > changing the better (more expensive stuff) before it was "fully used up" > thus wasting the extra money I spent on it. Makes complete sense to me, man...especially if you maintain your behicle where you change oil *before* its worn out. Peace, Polfus >>> Still...that does nothing to test the actual condition of the actual >>> motor oil once it's in the engine. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Peace, > Polfus hump #9 >>> That would require having on-board info in a hard drive that knows the >>> chemical structure, osmolarity, density from the light spectrometer [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Polfus hump #6 >What is it nowadays--API SJ? The most recent API rating for oils for gasoline engines is SM. http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/EngineOilGuide2006.pdf Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------ Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is provided with this message. >>What is it nowadays--API SJ? > > The most recent API rating for oils for gasoline engines is SM. > http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/EngineOilGuide2006.pdf Thanks for that, Timothy! Interesting that there is no info for degredation properties of motor oils on that. Anyone have a link to such info? Peace, Polfus >>> What is it nowadays--API SJ? >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Peace, > Polfus hump #4 >>> Then why can all that be screwed up if one forgets to reset the >>> Maintenance Minder? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > It is not difficult for a "Honda recommends changing engine oil every > 5,000 miles or 7,000 miles or whatever. But they no longer believe that to be true is why they don't say it. > Because for Honda to dismiss the thing's worth with "...change the engine > oil every year" must still be a recommendation that they are comfortable > with. Cause oil does break down from just sitting there. > Because they are saying that if you don't use the MM, then change the oil > every year. No, they are saying if you haven't done enough driving to trip the MM, then change the oil cause it's starting to break down due to age. > That amazes me to no end...what the hell is the point of being so critical > with the MM when Honda basically says their car will bne fine if you just > change the oil once a year. No, cause if you drive say 15,000 miles a year, the oil needs changing sooner than yearly. How much sooner will depend on length of trip, style of driving, etc... and that's where the MM kicks in. > Do you follow what I'm saying? Yes, but I don't agree and I think that your logic above is flawed. >> The MM computer does take into account distance driven. > > I believe that's most likely the main thought in its electronic brain; > i.e. "..when did I last get reset?" More like, what kind of coinditions have I been faced with and how have they affected the oil since I was last reset. >> Can the computer fail? Yes, but so can a lot of other parts. The owner >> has to stay alert to trouble codes and symptoms. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > is that we cannot accept a car company telling us "just shut the hell up > and do what the computer says". Your welcome to change the oil sooner, just Honda doesn't beleive it is neccessary. The MM can be reset before it's time as well. If you change the oil when it is at say 40%, reset it backl to 100%. > If the computer fails, like H.A.L., then we need back up and info on how > to fix or maintain the dang thing. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > Peace, > Polfus >> It is not difficult for a "Honda recommends changing engine oil every >> 5,000 miles or 7,000 miles or whatever. > > But they no longer believe that to be true is why they don't say it. Well help me then..what is their current thinking? > No, they are saying if you haven't done enough driving to trip the MM, > then change the oil cause it's starting to break down due to age. ?? They are saying that if it doesn't go off its not 'cause of failure to the system, but because the car hasn't been driven enough to make it activate..i.e. enough miles driven to warrant oil change? If thats what you're saying, then I understand...thank you. If thats not what you'r saying, then we'll keep trying. And does Mobil 1 synthetic break down "just sitting there"? I didn't believe it did. > No, cause if you drive say 15,000 miles a year, the oil needs changing > sooner than yearly. How much sooner will depend on length of trip, style > of driving, etc... and that's where the MM kicks in. So you're saying that Honda is saying that "..don't worry..the MM *WILL* work and kick in, but if you don't see the might go off, then you must not be driving a lot so just change once a year". Thats it? > Yes, but I don't agree and I think that your logic above is flawed. Apparently...I believe I see what you mean about this, and I may have been looking at it wrong about the once a year thing, if you're saying what I think you're saying. >> I believe that's most likely the main thought in its electronic brain; >> i.e. "..when did I last get reset?" > More like, what kind of coinditions have I been faced with and how have > they affected the oil since I was last reset. Okay....whats your take on the accuracy of the MM in general? > Your welcome to change the oil sooner, just Honda doesn't beleive it is > neccessary. The MM can be reset before it's time as well. If you change > the oil when it is at say 40%, reset it backl to 100%. Yeah...I did read my manual :) Peace, Polfus >>> It is not difficult for a "Honda recommends changing engine oil every >>> 5,000 miles or 7,000 miles or whatever. >> >> But they no longer believe that to be true is why they don't say it. > > Well help me then..what is their current thinking? That the MM will tell you when the oil needs a change, but if you drive so little that it takes over a year to reach that threshold, chenge it anyhow. >> No, they are saying if you haven't done enough driving to trip the MM, >> then change the oil cause it's starting to break down due to age. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > If thats what you're saying, then I understand...thank you. Yes, that's what I was saying. > If thats not what you'r saying, then we'll keep trying. > > And does Mobil 1 synthetic break down "just sitting there"? I didn't > believe it did. I don't use Mobil 1, nor have I looked into it, so I can't say. >> No, cause if you drive say 15,000 miles a year, the oil needs changing >> sooner than yearly. How much sooner will depend on length of trip, style [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Thats it? As I understand it, yes. >> Yes, but I don't agree and I think that your logic above is flawed. > > Apparently...I believe I see what you mean about this, and I may have been > looking at it wrong about the once a year thing, if you're saying what I > think you're saying. I think we're on the same page. >>> I believe that's most likely the main thought in its electronic brain; >>> i.e. "..when did I last get reset?" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Okay....whats your take on the accuracy of the MM in general? Have it in my wife's '07 Odyssey. Seems to indicate a change at what I perceive to be a reasonable amount of mileage. Not being an automotive engineer, I'm not 100% certain it is correct, but I have faith in the engineers who know more than I. I know that my '01 EX-V6 Accord, which doesn't have the same MM as my wife's '07, I've not been changing the oil till indicated (no percentage gauge, just a flashing light to indicate), I don't change the oil till flashing, use regular old dino oil (or whatever 5W-20 is these days) and my car with just a tad over 199,000 miles is still going strong. >> Your welcome to change the oil sooner, just Honda doesn't beleive it is >> neccessary. The MM can be reset before it's time as well. If you change [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Peace, > Polfus > That the MM will tell you when the oil needs a change, but if you drive so > little that it takes over a year to reach that threshold, chenge it > anyhow. No...I mean do you know what Honda's or the motor oil dudes say about changing oil...the interval, that is? > Yes, that's what I was saying. Outstanding. > I don't use Mobil 1, nor have I looked into it, so I can't say. I wonder....I don't believe that needs changing every year, even if sitting around undriven. > I think we're on the same page. Yup. > Have it in my wife's '07 Odyssey. Seems to indicate a change at what I > perceive to be a reasonable amount of mileage. Not being an automotive > engineer, I'm not 100% certain it is correct, but I have faith in the > engineers who know more than I. Well...I do too, or else I wouldn't have spent my cash on an Accord! > I know that my '01 EX-V6 Accord, which doesn't have the same MM as my > wife's '07, I've not been changing the oil till indicated (no percentage > gauge, just a flashing light to indicate), I don't change the oil till > flashing, use regular old dino oil (or whatever 5W-20 is these days) and > my car with just a tad over 199,000 miles is still going strong. That's awesome.....I was just mentioning that the 200k mark is a big one, and not really the norm. You have definately gotten your money's worth with that '01 Accord. How long you predict it shall last..mileage wise? Peace, Polfus >> That the MM will tell you when the oil needs a change, but if you drive >> so little that it takes over a year to reach that threshold, chenge it >> anyhow. > > No...I mean do you know what Honda's or the motor oil dudes say about > changing oil...the interval, that is? Yeah, when the MM says to or 1 year, whichever comes first. I know of no other. >> Yes, that's what I was saying. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I wonder....I don't believe that needs changing every year, even if > sitting around undriven. I have no scientific fact, only that logically it makes sense. It has contaminants eating away at it even if just sitting there. >> I think we're on the same page. > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > and not really the norm. You have definately gotten your money's worth > with that '01 Accord. How long you predict it shall last..mileage wise? Got home today at 199,178. I fear the engine will last well beyond the transmission. It's being an '01 V6-AT having not had any problems (except for the occasional code (P0980 I think)) it is already on borrowed time. > Yeah, when the MM says to or 1 year, whichever comes first. I know of no > other. Cool..I thought you had other info bec..well..doesn't matter what I thought. > I have no scientific fact, only that logically it makes sense. It has > contaminants eating away at it even if just sitting there. Oh..sorry..I guess I forgot to say that in my example, its fresh oil on a brand new car. In other words, if I have a brand new car and keep it in a garage and start in once every 2 weeks and roll it around the neighborhood once or twice and then park it again, for a year....like maybe 100 miles max in a year, if even. I wonder if its okay for synthetic oil and if it would still, in reality, require replacement even if a MM says so. Is the damn stuff *really* dirty/contaminated/degraded to the point of warranting replacement, even in this extreme example? See what I mean? Because if you do, then you could fairly quickly see that there may be times when the MM is incorrect. > Got home today at 199,178. I fear the engine will last well beyond the > transmission. It's being an '01 V6-AT having not had any problems (except > for the occasional code (P0980 I think)) it is already on borrowed time. Heh...didn't worry about how long it would last like you worry about it now...just 822 miles to go, boyee! Peace, Polfus >> Yeah, when the MM says to or 1 year, whichever comes first. I know of no >> other. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Oh..sorry..I guess I forgot to say that in my example, its fresh oil on a > brand new car. It's not fresh once you open it and put it in an engine. > In other words, if I have a brand new car and keep it in a garage and > start in once every 2 weeks and roll it around the neighborhood once or > twice and then park it again, for a year....like maybe 100 miles max in a > year, if even. It still has contimants in it. Under those circumstances, might it be good for 1.5 yrs instead of 1, probably. But now you're describing an owners manual 1000 pages long while it lists out every possible scenario rather than the most likely that will be economical for all. > I wonder if its okay for synthetic oil and if it would still, in reality, > require replacement even if a MM says so. MM is for the lowest common denominator and won't have a way to differentiate. Honda's have no DINO/SYNTH" switch under the hood. > Is the damn stuff *really* dirty/contaminated/degraded to the point of > warranting replacement, even in this extreme example? How dirty it is, would require taking a sample and sending it for analysis. I'd rather spend the $15 or whatever changing it than $40 for the analysis. > See what I mean? Yeah, but now I think you are looking for extremes. > Because if you do, then you could fairly quickly see that there may be > times when the MM is incorrect. But it's almost always going to be good enough for the masses. >> Got home today at 199,178. I fear the engine will last well beyond the >> transmission. It's being an '01 V6-AT having not had any problems [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Peace, > Polfus |
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