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Car Forum / Honda Cars / March 2008

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Dave L - 14 Mar 2008 03:15 GMT
I ran into this today and thought a couple parts of this article were
interesting, particularly the differences between different octane gas and
whether to let the car warm up before driving.  The top section about
squeeking brakes - almost sounds like they're promoting re-surfacing the
roters for each brake job to keep them from squeaking.  I've changed brakes
before withought re-surfacing and never had a problem.  Opinions?

http://tinyurl.com/34du4y

-Dave
Ph@Boy - 14 Mar 2008 04:06 GMT
> I ran into this today and thought a couple parts of this article were
> interesting, particularly the differences between different octane gas and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> -Dave

I read the article and thought it was general at best. A lot lacking,
and a bit off mis information concerning the topic of hydroplaning.

Yes, you can get away with not resurfacing rotors, but it's not the
preferred or recommended manner normally to do a brake job.

If you have a heavily grooved rotor you will notice that the worn pad to
be replaced has the exact matching grooves in it.

The new replacement has of course has a flat surface that will have to
wear in to the rotor to obtain the greatest breaking surface. That can
take time and braking performance in a panic situation can suffer.

Resurfacing also removes any warp.

I could go on, but I'm sure others will have many other reasons as well.

Resurfacing rotors is a good thing.

OBTW, the biggest factors for hydroplaning are speed of the vehicle and
tire pressure. Tread and water depth make little if any difference.
Tegger - 14 Mar 2008 16:11 GMT
>> I ran into this today and thought a couple parts of this article were
>> interesting, particularly the differences between different octane
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Resurfacing also removes any warp.

My objection to resurfacing is that many garages do not seem to care for
their brake lathing equipment properly.

A dull or mispositioned bit will make an absolutely horrible "new" surface
on the rotors. Such a surface can glaze up in a big hurry.

If you are guaranteed a quality lathe job, go for it. But if there is /any/
suspicion of lathe quality, either replace the rotors or just put the new
pads on the old surface (provided your new pads are the same as the old
ones).

Signature

Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Ph@Boy - 14 Mar 2008 16:26 GMT
>>> I ran into this today and thought a couple parts of this article were
>>> interesting, particularly the differences between different octane
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> pads on the old surface (provided your new pads are the same as the old
> ones).

You're absolutely right Tegger. Some guys haven't changed a seven dollar
insert in years if ever!

Setup by a knowledgeable operator is key as well.

It really a disservice to a customer when you just hog off all the iron
on the thinest rotor or largest diameter drum and not take into account
the others and just turn them down to the same dimension. Most don't
demand it, but on some high end vehicles this must be done and the
customer should be informed.

Some guys just want to sell rotors, or how many jobs can I get through
this machine to pay for it and the mechanic, not build a new customer to
be a return.
Dave L - 15 Mar 2008 05:20 GMT
>>> I ran into this today and thought a couple parts of this article were
>>> interesting, particularly the differences between different octane
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> pads on the old surface (provided your new pads are the same as the old
> ones).

I never considered the equipment used to resurface the rotors.  Good point!

-Dave
Dave L - 15 Mar 2008 05:18 GMT
>> I ran into this today and thought a couple parts of this article were
>> interesting, particularly the differences between different octane gas
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> OBTW, the biggest factors for hydroplaning are speed of the vehicle and
> tire pressure. Tread and water depth make little if any difference.

It was general but I think that's what they were trying to do to simplify
each situation.  The topics that caught my eye were the ones I see being
debated on these groups from time to time.  The use/reasons for the
different octane fuel, whether it's good to really warm up a car and whether
rotors should be re-surfaced.

I know re-surfacing removes any warp but if the brakes are replaced before
any pulsating starts I thought having the rotors turned wouldn't be
necessary...  Besides, wouldn't re-surfacing increase the tendency for it to
warp again?

I agree speed and tire pressure affect hydroplaning - but so do the tread
pattern/compound.  I used to have the Bridgestone Potenza RE-960 on a
Prelude and they were the best tires I've ever used on wet roads.  Almost
felt like I was driving on dry pavement and cannot remember ever
hydroplaning, whether it was light or heavy rain.  Very stable and solid.
Snow was a different story - they were awful!  It was a trade-off.  However
nothing beats common sense!

-Dave
C. E. White - 18 Mar 2008 00:25 GMT
> I could go on, but I'm sure others will have many other reasons as well.
>
> Resurfacing rotors is a good thing.

I beg to differ. I can't speak for Toyota, but I know Ford and GM
specifically says resurfacing is not required when replacing pads unless the
rotor is damaged. And then only minor damage can be cleaned up. Significant
groving requires rotor replacement.  Futhermore, Ford only recommend
resurfacing rotors on the car. Unless the brake lathe is in great condition,
the chances of it making things worse are significant. Unless the car
already has warped or otherwise damaged rotors, I see no reason to routinely
turn brake rotors. I know most independent shops routinely turn brake
rotors. They usually give a couple of reasons, but in many cases the main
reason is extra profit or just habit.

See:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-92137449.html
http://www.aa1car.com/library/2003/bf110322.htm
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml

> OBTW, the biggest factors for hydroplaning are speed of the vehicle and
> tire pressure. Tread and water depth make little if any difference.

Oh boy.......you really need to clarify this. See
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/rulings/TPMS_FMVSS_No138/part5.6.html .
You statement is misleading at best. Speed is a major factor for sure. But
tread depth is not the trival factor that you impy in your statement. Tire
inflation pressure is a major factor once "water depth exceeds the
capability of the tread design to remove water." So for minimal depth of
water and good condition tread, tire inflation pressure is not a bigger
factor that depth of water and tread. Furthermore the formula used is pretty
lame since it does not account for sidewall stiffness. Try applying the
forumla to a run flat tire with all the pressure released and get back to
me.

See also:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=3

Ed
Ph@Boy - 19 Mar 2008 04:11 GMT
>> I could go on, but I'm sure others will have many other reasons as well.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> rotors. They usually give a couple of reasons, but in many cases the main
> reason is extra profit or just habit.

I've noticed the auto manufacturers are in that same extra profit and
habit mode as well on every new one pumped out.

All I can say Ed, is never do yours. Most people come into a shop with
the pad backing plate, if not a piston ground into at least one of the
rotors, wondering what is that funny noise and the vibration in the
brake pedal?

> See:
> http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-92137449.html
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Ed

8.7 times the square root of the tire pressure is the formula to
calculate hydroplane speed in general. It's pretty reliable unless you
need to go into some physics calculations.

Tire tread depths vary greatly. Most folks don't buy specialty tires.
ep45guy@yahoo.com - 19 Mar 2008 15:38 GMT
. They usually give a couple of reasons, but in many cases the main
> > reason is extra profit or just habit.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> rotors, wondering what is that funny noise and the vibration in the
> brake pedal?

I am not a professional or even a particularly good DIY mechanic (just
for the record).  I think most shops resurface rotors to avoid 'come
back' problems with noise etc. on brake jobs.

On my own cars, I never turn the rotors unless there is a specific
need.  I know the 'theory' is to make the flat surfaces of the pad/
rotor match, and to take off any rust or other problems with the
rotor.  But even if a rotor is not perfectly flat after a bit of
driving the pads will mate to the rotor and if there were no noise
problems with the old pads there shouldn't be any with the new.  Any
time you cut a rotor you are, of course, taking off metal - why do
that if it isn't necessary?  Its not just a 'cost' issue.

I also agree with the poster who noted that not all shops use the
brake lathe that well - in fact, I think proper turning of rotors may
very well be a dying art.  In the hands of a skilled operator, a rotor
can literally be brought back to life 'from the dead' - but like so
many other things you don't just slap the rotor on the machine and
take a cut.

My opinion, FWIW.
Tony Harding - 20 Mar 2008 12:23 GMT
> . They usually give a couple of reasons, but in many cases the main
>>> reason is extra profit or just habit.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> for the record).  I think most shops resurface rotors to avoid 'come
> back' problems with noise etc. on brake jobs.

Not to mention the $$$ involved (which buys us nothing in most cases). I
started replacing brake pads in the 70's on my 1970 VW, 1969 Porsche,
1988 Acura & 2003 Accord - never turned a rotor, never replaced a rotor
and never had a problem.

As always, YMMV.
C. E. White - 19 Mar 2008 16:03 GMT
>>> I could go on, but I'm sure others will have many other reasons as
>>> well.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> of the rotors, wondering what is that funny noise and the vibration
> in the brake pedal?

It has been years since I let a set of pads wear so thin they damaged
a rotor. And back then I was a college student. I slapped on a set of
pads, and never looked back. I had zero problems with the brakes
despite the "groves" in the rotor. GM even says they aren't a problem
unless they are so deep the bottom is below the minimum rotor
thickness. The one time I let a shop cut my rotors it was a disaster.
I took the car with brakes in good condition. They warned me the
brakes were thin, so I let them do a brake job. When I got the car
back the brakes squealed and pulsed like hell. When I complained, they
said the rotors were no good and tried to sell me knew ones. When I
pointed out the brakes were fine when I dropped the car off, they just
walked away. A lot yelling followed. So did new rotors.

>> See:
>> http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-92137449.html
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> calculate hydroplane speed in general. It's pretty reliable unless
> you need to go into some physics calculations.

8.7 is the NASA number for airplanes. NHTSA uses 10.35 and they make
it clear this only has validity once "the water depth exceeds the
capability of the tread design to remove water." The ability of tires
to "remove water" varies depending on the original tread design, the
tread depth, and the depth of the standing water. The hydroplaning
formula may work pretty good for heavily worn ties and relatively deep
standing water, but it clearly is just an approximation and can't be
blindly applies. Once again, do the calculation for run flat tires
with the pressure removed. Blindly using the formula implies the car
would hydroplane at 0 mph. I have a number of cars that have
recommended tire pressure of 30 psi or so. Using your preferred
formula (8.7 times the square root of the tire pressure) implies a
hydroplaning speed of 48 mile per hour. I've driven many miles in the
rain at speeds much greater than 48 mph and never hydroplaned. Using
the NHTSA formula gives a more realistic speed of 57 mph, but I've
also exceeded that many times. To be honest, I am not talking about
driving on roads with several inches of water, more like driving
through puddles with 1/4 inch of water. And with tires that still have
significant tread.

> Tire tread depths vary greatly. Most folks don't buy specialty
> tires.

Yes they do. And your point would be?

Ed
Ph@Boy - 19 Mar 2008 16:16 GMT
>>>> I could go on, but I'm sure others will have many other reasons as
>>>> well.
[quoted text clipped - 93 lines]
>
> Ed

I guess you'll be the guy doing the mental calculations as you drive.
C. E. White - 20 Mar 2008 12:54 GMT
> I guess you'll be the guy doing the mental calculations as you
> drive.

No, I'll be the guy slowing down when he approaches standing water of
unknown depth. I'll also be the guy with decent tread on his tires.

Ed
Ph@Boy - 20 Mar 2008 12:57 GMT
>> I guess you'll be the guy doing the mental calculations as you drive.
>
> No, I'll be the guy slowing down when he approaches standing water of
> unknown depth. I'll also be the guy with decent tread on his tires.
>
> Ed
Fantastic!
jim beam - 20 Mar 2008 13:43 GMT
>>> I guess you'll be the guy doing the mental calculations as you drive.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> Ed
> Fantastic!

weak.
Ph@Boy - 20 Mar 2008 13:48 GMT
>>>> I guess you'll be the guy doing the mental calculations as you drive.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> weak.
Ok, hows this.

REALLY FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!
jim beam - 20 Mar 2008 14:12 GMT
>>>>> I guess you'll be the guy doing the mental calculations as you drive.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> REALLY FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!

dude, there's a lot of experienced smart people hang out here.  that
means great learning opportunities - if you think about it.  much better
to ask questions than b.s.
Ph@Boy - 20 Mar 2008 14:26 GMT
>>>>>> I guess you'll be the guy doing the mental calculations as you drive.
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> means great learning opportunities - if you think about it.  much better
> to ask questions than b.s.

You have obviously excluded yourself from your aforementioned group.
Dude. Learn it.
jim beam - 21 Mar 2008 06:58 GMT
>>>>>>> I guess you'll be the guy doing the mental calculations as you
>>>>>>> drive.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> You have obviously excluded yourself from your aforementioned group.
> Dude. Learn it.

nobody's learning anything from you.
Ph@Boy - 21 Mar 2008 13:10 GMT
>>>>>>>> I guess you'll be the guy doing the mental calculations as you
>>>>>>>> drive.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> nobody's learning anything from you.
You personally, have proved that again. Simply brilliant! A perfectly
waisted opportunity.
jim beam - 21 Mar 2008 14:45 GMT
>>>>>>>>> I guess you'll be the guy doing the mental calculations as you
>>>>>>>>> drive.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> You personally, have proved that again. Simply brilliant! A perfectly
> waisted opportunity.

what's a "waisted opportunity"???  one that's "ph@" in the middle?
Tony Harding - 25 Mar 2008 05:29 GMT
>>>>>>>>> I guess you'll be the guy doing the mental calculations as you
>>>>>>>>> drive.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> You personally, have proved that again. Simply brilliant! A perfectly
> waisted opportunity.

A "waisted opportunity", I love it, although I will admit it's better
than being necked.
Tony Harding - 20 Mar 2008 16:43 GMT
>> I guess you'll be the guy doing the mental calculations as you drive.
>
> No, I'll be the guy slowing down when he approaches standing water of
> unknown depth. I'll also be the guy with decent tread on his tires.

What fun is there in that?  ;)
EdV - 14 Mar 2008 04:07 GMT
> I ran into this today and thought a couple parts of this article were
> interesting, particularly the differences between different octane gas and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> -Dave

I had my RAV4's rotors resurfaced only after changing the pads and the
squeeling didn't disappear. After resurfacing it was totally gone. I
guess my opinion would only to resurface if you are having problems,
otherwise don't waste your money fopr the resurface
Dave L - 15 Mar 2008 05:21 GMT
On Mar 13, 10:15 pm, "Dave L" <davelieuREMOV...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I ran into this today and thought a couple parts of this article were
> interesting, particularly the differences between different octane gas and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> -Dave

I had my RAV4's rotors resurfaced only after changing the pads and the
squeeling didn't disappear. After resurfacing it was totally gone. I
guess my opinion would only to resurface if you are having problems,
otherwise don't waste your money fopr the resurface

Exactly how I feel, unless something convinces me otherwise!

-Dave

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