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Car Forum / Honda Cars / October 20082004 accord - ATF and engine oil change
Well, I changed the ATF and engine oil this weekend on my 4-cyl accord coupe as a part of the 60k maintenance. This was my first time doing this with Honda Accord and it was much easier than I have anticipated. Knowing that the oil filter is on the engine rear side, next to the firewall (not like in my '95 Camry in front of the engine, smiling at you when you pop the hood open) I was sure I will have to put the car on the jack stands and crawl under the car or I will make a big mess replacing this filter. Something I wanted to avoid if possible. I found the easier access to the oil filter and the drain plug from the side of the car: everything is within hands reach when you remove the front right wheel. With the wheel removed and car supported at one corner on the scissor jack and the wheel blocks on the rear wheels it is really easy to reach for the drain plug or the filter *without* putting yourself under the car at all. I put 4.5 qrts of Mobil 1 synthetic 5W20 for the incoming winter season. The drain plug for the ATF is so close to the front bumper that you also do not need to crawl under the car at all. My ATF drain plug was for some reason put too tight so I had a hard time to crack it open even with a 24" breaker bar, but that only proves that *Honda dealerships do not follow the torque recommendations from the manufacturers* when they work on our cars. Engine oil drain plug (17mm) was also too tight. With only 33 ft-lb torque required by manufacturer to fasten it they put it in so hard that the aluminum washer under the plug looked like the souvenir penny crushed in the gift shop at Niagara Falls :-) If the ATF drain plug was not put too tight then the fluid change could be done without even lifting the car up at all. This is what I do with my Toyota Camry routinely. I do not lift it at all neither for oil nor for ATF change. Everything what is needed for that job is easily accessible without lifting the car. I had one problem with filling AT back with the 3 qrts of fluid - I've done it too quickly and the flow of fluid blocked the displaced air escape and the ATF barfed from the top of the dipstick tube soiling my transmission body and the floor under the car. Lesson learned: fill ATF very slowly next time :-) Especially at the price above $6 a quart this is a precious liquid you do not want to spill on your floor... I consider this price a nice rip off if you compare this to a price of regular Dextron fluids... but what can you do about it, right? BTW - is there any cheaper source for the Mobil 1 than a big 5 quarts bottle of it @ Wal-Mart for less than $25? Oh, I forgot to ask you - is there any computer code on 2004 to be cleared after oil or ATF change? I do not think 2004 came with the oil sensor like in 2007 and newer, but I would not like the check engine activated and indicating need for oil change 1000 miles after I have it done... > Oh, I forgot to ask you - is there any computer code on 2004 to be > cleared after oil or ATF change? I do not think 2004 came with the oil > sensor like in 2007 and newer, but I would not like the check engine > activated and indicating need for oil change 1000 miles after I have > it done... There appears to be mention of any oil-life minder in your Owner's Manual.  SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> Oh, I forgot to ask you - is there any computer code on 2004 to be >> cleared after oil or ATF change? I do not think 2004 came with the oil [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > There appears to be mention of any oil-life minder in your Owner's Manual. I have not found anything like that in my manual... Which model year starts to have these electronic "minders"? Is it 2007? >>> Oh, I forgot to ask you - is there any computer code on 2004 to be >>> cleared after oil or ATF change? I do not think 2004 came with the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Which model year starts to have these electronic "minders"? Is it > 2007? Check page 73. You do have a "Maintenance Required" lamp that requires to be reset. I forgot about that. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>>> Oh, I forgot to ask you - is there any computer code on 2004 to be >>>> cleared after oil or ATF change? I do not think 2004 came with the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > You do have a "Maintenance Required" lamp that requires to be reset. I > forgot about that. Page 73 in my Owner's Manual is about rear window defogger. Are you sure you are looking at 2004 accord coupe, 4-cyl? >>>>> Oh, I forgot to ask you - is there any computer code on 2004 to be >>>>> cleared after oil or ATF change? I do not think 2004 came with the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Page 73 in my Owner's Manual is about rear window defogger. > Are you sure you are looking at 2004 accord coupe, 4-cyl? the point is that it's in your book if you bother to look for the right page. >>>>> Oh, I forgot to ask you - is there any computer code on 2004 to be >>>>> cleared after oil or ATF change? I do not think 2004 came with the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Page 73 in my Owner's Manual is about rear window defogger. > Are you sure you are looking at 2004 accord coupe, 4-cyl? Ah, the coupe. You never said. Page 73 is for the sedan. Check the Index under "M" for "Maintenance Required Indicator". The online manual shows it to be page 63, but your paper manual may be different. You may need to look in your own Index, which you evidently haven't done up to now. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > Ah, the coupe. You never said. Page 73 is for the sedan. Yes, in fact I did, in the first sentence of my first post... > Check the Index under "M" for "Maintenance Required Indicator". The online > manual shows it to be page 63, but your paper manual may be different. You > may need to look in your own Index, which you evidently haven't done up to > now. Yes, you are right - I did not look in the Index! I was expecting to find it in the chapter dedicated to the maintenance. Thank you very much! > Oh, I forgot to ask you - is there any computer code on 2004 to be > cleared after oil or ATF change? I do not think 2004 came with the oil > sensor like in 2007 and newer, but I would not like the check engine > activated and indicating need for oil change 1000 miles after I have it > done... google the archive for this group - or tegger.com. resetting the maintenance minder light is constantly asked my people like yourself that can't be bothered to read their owners manual or look the information up online. best place to start is by opening your glove box. > Well, > I changed the ATF and engine oil this weekend on my 4-cyl accord coupe [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > not follow the torque recommendations from the manufacturers* when they > work on our cars. no it doesn't - it shows that the screw has been exposed to an environment that has caused it to seize. > Engine oil drain plug (17mm) was also too tight. With > only 33 ft-lb torque required by manufacturer to fasten it they put it > in so hard that the aluminum washer under the plug looked like the > souvenir penny crushed in the gift shop at Niagara Falls dude, that washer is soft annealed aluminum. you can deform a new one easily with your teeth, let alone under the action of a drain plug screw. > :-) If the ATF > drain plug was not put too tight then the fluid change could be done [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > very slowly next time :-) Especially at the price above $6 a quart this > is a precious liquid you do not want to spill on your floor... why does this little tale not surprise me? > I > consider this price a nice rip off if you compare this to a price of > regular Dextron fluids. but honda z1 is not like regular dexron. [note spelling: d-e-x-r-o-n] > .. but what can you do about it, right? > > BTW - is there any cheaper source for the Mobil 1 than a big 5 quarts > bottle of it @ Wal-Mart for less than $25? here: http://www.justfuckinggoogleit.com The Honda ATF is either a synthetic or synthetic blend fluid. `$6 is typical for that type of fluid, such as the new Dexron VI used in the excellent 6T/6L LePelletier designs. The blends typically have > 2x the life than conventional, I'm sure fully syn even more. BTW, GM no longer licenses the older Dexron names. That's why you see the "Dexron compatible" on fluids where the II/III were but no longer any Dexron II Dexron III etc. Pep Boys or Autozone frequently sell 5 qts Mobil-1 plus a Mobil-1 filter (AZ uses Bosch) for $25. Save a filter's cost is all. Not bad. > I had one problem with filling AT back with the 3 qrts of fluid - I've done > it too quickly and the flow of fluid blocked the displaced air escape and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > BTW - is there any cheaper source for the Mobil 1 than a big 5 quarts bottle > of it @ Wal-Mart for less than $25? > The Honda ATF is either a synthetic or synthetic blend fluid. `$6 is > typical for that type of fluid, such as the new Dexron VI used in the > excellent 6T/6L LePelletier designs. The blends typically have > 2x > the life than conventional, I'm sure fully syn even more. > > BTW, GM no longer licenses the older Dexron names. it's a license thing? i thought it was just that gm now have type III and as far as they're concerned, it out-performs type II in all respects - everybody uses planetary transmissions, right? except that honda transmissions don't use planetary gears, have their regulators set for type II, and type III makes it shift like someone just rear-ended you. > That's why you see > the "Dexron compatible" on fluids where the II/III were but no longer [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> BTW - is there any cheaper source for the Mobil 1 than a big 5 quarts bottle >> of it @ Wal-Mart for less than $25? Dexron III licensing stopped in 2005. Now the synthetic-blend Dexron VI ($$) designed for direct clutch trannys replaced all prior fluids. There are still cheap dino "Dexron-III compatible" fluids, except refiners can't call them "Dexron III" fluids. Just a technicality really from the legal department. "the automaker is already recommending Dexron-VI for service fill in existing vehicles, noting its compatibility with transmissions built before model year 2006. To encourage the switch, the company will cease to issue Dexron-III(H) licenses at the end of 2005, meaning all such licenses will expire by the end of 2006." http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article000384801.cfm?x=b4MwkBc,b16hwRCn,w > > BTW, GM no longer licenses the older Dexron names. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > regulators set for type II, and type III makes it shift like someone > just rear-ended you. > Dexron III licensing stopped in 2005. Now the synthetic-blend Dexron > VI ($$) designed for direct clutch trannys replaced all prior fluids. > There are still cheap dino ok, but where do you and pszemol get this "synthetic" vs. "cheap dino" attitude from? what makes it relevant to a transmission? what do you think "synthetic" is? > "Dexron-III compatible" fluids, except > refiners can't call them "Dexron III" fluids. Just a technicality [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> regulators set for type II, and type III makes it shift like someone >> just rear-ended you. >> Dexron III licensing stopped in 2005. Now the synthetic-blend Dexron >> VI ($$) designed for direct clutch trannys replaced all prior fluids. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > attitude from? what makes it relevant to a transmission? what do you > think "synthetic" is? Pszemol does not have a synthetic attitude :-) I was just commenting his argument, that ATF Z1 might be synthetic and that is why it is so expensive compared to "dino" ATFs like Dexron II/III. My question "do you know for the fact if it is synthetic" is not an expression of any "attitude" toward anything. It is just a question. It is agreement to an idea that since synthetic engine oils are much more expensive than "dino" oils, the same can apply to ATF kinds. If you haven't noticed yet, it was not about switching to a different fluid in our hondas. It was just discussion about the ATF price iteself. p.s. why do you leave old citations on the bottom of your texts? It is so messy... this fragment is not relevant to your response. You can cut it out without impacting understanding of your answer. >>> Dexron III licensing stopped in 2005. Now the synthetic-blend Dexron >>> VI ($$) designed for direct clutch trannys replaced all prior fluids. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > It is so messy... this fragment is not relevant to your response. > You can cut it out without impacting understanding of your answer. troll. >>>> Dexron III licensing stopped in 2005. Now the synthetic-blend Dexron >>>> VI ($$) designed for direct clutch trannys replaced all prior fluids. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > troll. I see you finally understand your mistake and not having anything smart to add you call me names... how mature it is :-) >>>>> Dexron III licensing stopped in 2005. Now the synthetic-blend Dexron >>>>> VI ($$) designed for direct clutch trannys replaced all prior fluids. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > I see you finally understand your mistake and not having anything smart > to add you call me names... how mature it is :-) eh? me wondering if you speak english as a first language because you have spectacular comprehension problems is not calling you names, it's simply one of the conclusions you can draw from observing your behavior. subsequently observing that you have more interest in arguing than you do in cars, and eliminating the above, then makes you a troll. >>> troll. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > subsequently observing that you have more interest in arguing than you do > in cars, and eliminating the above, then makes you a troll. So if I draw a conclusion you are "Einsten", it will not be calling you names? :-) Sure it was a little digression from ~$6/quart Honda ATF. Synthetic or synthetic-blends typically cost ~$6 (including Dexron VI, Toyota Type 3, 4 etc ), while the dino Dexron II/III usually is less than $2. This is not to say people should use any other than specified ATF fluid in any car. > ok, but where do you and pszemol get this "synthetic" vs. "cheap dino" > attitude from? what makes it relevant to a transmission? what do you > think "synthetic" is? > Sure it was a little digression from ~$6/quart Honda ATF. Synthetic or > synthetic-blends typically cost ~$6 (including Dexron VI, Toyota Type > 3, 4 etc ), while the dino Dexron II/III usually is less than $2. > > This is not to say people should use any other than specified ATF > fluid in any car. so honda's got you by the shorts! the problem is, nobody else sells atf that works as well in their transmissions. but given that you don't need to change it very often [i changed the atf on my civic after 60k miles of hot high speed desert driving - e.g. grape vine at 90+ at 103'F, flat out in 3rd, so no lockup clutch - and when i changed it, it looked/smelled almost perfect, and there was almost /nothing/ on the transmission magnet] i don't see that it's much of a problem. >> ok, but where do you and pszemol get this "synthetic" vs. "cheap dino" >> attitude from? �what makes it relevant to a transmission? �what do you >> think "synthetic" is? >> Sure it was a little digression from ~$6/quart Honda ATF. Synthetic or >> synthetic-blends typically cost ~$6 (including Dexron VI, Toyota Type [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > almost perfect, and there was almost /nothing/ on the transmission magnet] > i don't see that it's much of a problem. Are you really drawing this conclusion on a single test case? What is the manufacturer recomended maintenance period for this transmission service in your car? > The Honda ATF is either a synthetic or synthetic blend fluid. `$6 is > typical for that type of fluid, such as the new Dexron VI used in the > excellent 6T/6L LePelletier designs. The blends typically have > 2x > the life than conventional, I'm sure fully syn even more. Do you know for the fact that honda ATF Z1 is synthetic or you are just guessing? > Pep Boys or Autozone frequently sell 5 qts Mobil-1 plus a Mobil-1 > filter (AZ uses Bosch) for $25. Save a filter's cost is all. Not bad. I am not sure if the filter they give you is that good, but maybe... I have already purchased a package of 6 filters + 6 crush washers from Honda, so I am not interested in filters, just bottom line price for the oil... Walmart has a 5 quarts bottle @ 23.75+tax or something like that, so the total is about $25 gross. I was thinking I could get it cheaper if I buy more quantity... I am unable to find a better deal. >> The Honda ATF is either a synthetic or synthetic blend fluid. `$6 is >> typical for that type of fluid, such as the new Dexron VI used in the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Do you know for the fact that honda ATF Z1 is synthetic or you are just > guessing? I have done some research and it looks like Honda's "ATF Z1" is NOT synthetic fluid: http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2007-01-3987 and compares rather poor to other fluids... So the price in this light seems to be a rip off. >>> The Honda ATF is either a synthetic or synthetic blend fluid. `$6 is >>> typical for that type of fluid, such as the new Dexron VI used in the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > compares rather poor to other fluids... So the price in this light seems > to be a rip off. eh? your cite specifically states: "Based on the results, one can conclude that each ATF is uniquely formulated to specific OEM requirements. In addition, the results show that a customer should not deviate from the automatic transmission fluid specified in the vehicle's owners manual." nowhere does it mention honda or how honda-spec atf compares. was your cite a typo or did you just not bother to read it? as for you trying to bleat about "synthetic", do you know what that word even means? do you understand how it applies to auto lubricants? >>>> The Honda ATF is either a synthetic or synthetic blend fluid. `$6 is >>>> typical for that type of fluid, such as the new Dexron VI used in the [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > was your cite a typo or did you just not bother to read it? You just read the abstract only. Please read the full paper, Einstein! > as for you trying to bleat about "synthetic", do you know what that word > even means? do you understand how it applies to auto lubricants? ?? Read the full story and then we will come back to this, ok? If you still want to come back here :-) >>>>> The Honda ATF is either a synthetic or synthetic blend fluid. `$6 is >>>>> typical for that type of fluid, such as the new Dexron VI used in the [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > ?? Read the full story and then we will come back to this, ok? > If you still want to come back here :-) there you go with the insults again - now you can go on your denial rant. as for the alleged content of the paper, there is no mention of what you say in your cite - you need to dig up a publicly accessible cite if you want to use it in an argument. oh, and try and figure out what "synthetic" is and means while you're about it. >> You just read the abstract only. Please read the full paper, Einstein! >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > there you go with the insults again - now you can go on your denial rant. Not again, this was the first time. And don't you tell me you did not deserve it: I gave you the link to the professional paper and you read only the abstract and you are surprised that in the abstract there is nothing about ATF being not synthetic... Duh! > as for the alleged content of the paper, there is no mention of what you > say in your cite - you need to dig up a publicly accessible cite if you > want to use it in an argument. If you cannot afford to get the full paper maybe you should ask your mommy to rise your allowance... > oh, and try and figure out what "synthetic" is and means while you're > about it. Read the paper and you will learn that ATF Z1 is not synthetic. >>> You just read the abstract only. Please read the full paper, Einstein! >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Not again, this was the first time. And don't you tell me you did not > deserve it: google still too hard for you? > I gave you the link to the professional paper and you read > only the abstract and you are surprised that in the abstract there is > nothing about ATF being not synthetic... Duh! dude, you gave a link to an abstract that in no apparent way corroborates what you say. if you think paying to read something, based on your track record, without apparent connection or relevance is smart, you have serious problems with either english comprehension or grasping reality. besides, if what you say is true, you can use google, cite a real live public link, and prove it! not hard to do if you know what you're talking about, right? >> as for the alleged content of the paper, there is no mention of what >> you say in your cite - you need to dig up a publicly accessible cite >> if you want to use it in an argument. > > If you cannot afford to get the full paper maybe you should ask your > mommy to rise your allowance... see above. >> oh, and try and figure out what "synthetic" is and means while you're >> about it. > > Read the paper and you will learn that ATF Z1 is not synthetic. so what? your cite says: "Based on the results, one can conclude that each ATF is uniquely formulated to specific OEM requirements. In addition, the results show that a customer should not deviate from the automatic transmission fluid specified in the vehicle's owners manual." how much more clear can that be? if a specific atf is: 1. uniquely formulated to meet a manufacturer's requirements 2. detrimental if not used why would you even /consider/ some random "synthetic" - especially if you apparently don't even know what it is? >>>> You just read the abstract only. Please read the full paper, Einstein! >>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > google still too hard for you? Obviously for YOU, because you are unable to prove your silly accusations. Remember the golden rule: innocent until proven guilty. It is YOUR responsibility to prove I am guilty of something you accuse me of, not mine to prove I am innocent. >> I gave you the link to the professional paper and you read only the >> abstract and you are surprised that in the abstract there is nothing >> about ATF being not synthetic... Duh! > > dude, you gave a link to an abstract that in no apparent way corroborates > what you say. I gave you the link to the professional paper treating IN GREAT DETAILS about many different AT fluids. It happened to also have an abstract, but I was sure it will not be too taxing for your IQ to guess I am not refering to the abstract alone but to the full text. The fact you did not find anything relevant in the abstract itself should be another clue (and would be for anybody with average IQ level) for you that I was refering to the full paper not the abstract. So if you still do not get it, let me spell it for you: you need to read FULL PAPER to get the information about ATZ F1 fluid being not synthetic fluid. Yes, you have to pay for it to read it, but nobody forces you to read it. It is totally up to you. > if you think paying to read something, based on your track record, without > apparent connection or relevance is smart, you have serious problems with > either english comprehension or grasping reality. besides, if what you > say is true, you can use google, cite a real live public link, and prove > it! not hard to do if you know what you're talking about, right? I do not know why is it so unusual or strange for you that scientific and technical papers cost money? You have never done any real reseach, haven't you? If all your knowledge is based on "free" material available to search engines than it is pitiful. I said it is not synthetic, link the source of this information and this is the end from my side. Rest is totally up to you. If you want - read it, if not - do not read it. Why would I care? >> Read the paper and you will learn that ATF Z1 is not synthetic. > > so what? Try to find the context of my question about ATF Z1 being synthetic or not. Maybe you will get it then. If not - tough luck! Why would I go through the effort explaining this to you? What is there for me? > your cite says: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > why would you even /consider/ some random "synthetic" - especially if you > apparently don't even know what it is? Jimmy, why is it so taxing for your IQ to comprehend such a simple text in plain English? >>>>> You just read the abstract only. Please read the full paper, Einstein! >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > Jimmy, why is it so taxing for your IQ to comprehend such a simple text > in plain English? 1. "synthetic" is a red herring. you'd know that if you knew what you were talking about. 2. you're hiding behind "mommy's skirts" by alleging the contents of a cite something not publicly available. 3. you're resorting to insult again. bottom line, unless you can be bothered to actually present anythng relevant and on-topic, i have to conclude you're just being a troll. > 1. "synthetic" is a red herring. you'd know that if you knew what you > were talking about. What I know is the 1 quart of synthetic engine oil costs $5 while 1 quart of nonsynthetic costs <$2. Red herring or not - the price difference is quite dramatic. And this is what we were talking about with John - you did not catch the point - you were lost in the conversation, completely confused thinking we want to change fluid to a different one in our hondas. Your problem! Not the first time this is the reason it is very hard to discuss with you... > 2. you're hiding behind "mommy's skirts" by alleging the contents of a > cite something not publicly available. Stop the lies. It IS publicly available! It just hurts you to spend $14 to get it. > The drain plug for the ATF is so close to the front bumper that you also > do not need to crawl under the car at all. My ATF drain plug was for > some reason put too tight so I had a hard time to crack it open even > with a 24" breaker bar, but that only proves that *Honda dealerships do > not follow the torque recommendations from the manufacturers* when they > work on our cars. Engine oil drain plug (17mm) was also too tight. I have done all the fluid changes on our Hondas from new, and in every case I've found that the initial factory tightening of those drain bolts was way, way over spec. Cracking them loose the first time was a real pain. >> The drain plug for the ATF is so close to the front bumper that you also >> do not need to crawl under the car at all. My ATF drain plug was for some [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > was way, way over spec. Cracking them loose the first time was a real > pain. Yes, this is my experience as well. The argument that this is "crush-washer" and that is why it needs to be flatten like a souvenir penny at Disneyland is quite idiotic argument if you consider the specified torque being too low to smash the washer. It will be slightly crushed when you apply specified torque, it will bend and compress little to match all surface inequality on the oil pan, but it does not need to resemble flattened souvenier penny to do its job right. Apparently some oil-change "experts" at Honda do not use torque values given in the manual but take the crush-washer name as their only guide instead. And they crush it with all the muscle they have :-) |
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